[email protected]

A friend of mine who's been homeschooling (not quite unschooling but heading in that direction) for the past five years recently enrolled her 13 year old son in public school... his choice. He wanted to be with his friends and cousins who went to the school, plus he wanted to play on the basketball team which wasn't going to happen unless he enrolled. Anyway, he has been "assessed" to be on a much lower math "level" than his schooled counterparts and is struggling to catch up. He also is having a hard time with grammar, punctuation, capitalizing, and other skills that are considered a given in school by eighth grade. Needless to say, the school officials, family and friends, (and even her son) are blaming homeschooling and the fact that they haven't used a curriculum for years.

As a result, she wants to start doing school-at-home to keep her younger children up to grade level in the event that down the road they decide to go to school as well... the children agree with this as they see how upset they're brother has been over trying to catch up.

I just didn't know what to say to all this... especially since I've always argued in favor of unschooling and felt like the message I was getting from my friend was that unschooling backfired on her family.
I totally believe in unschooling but can also see how a situation like this can happen and cause bad feelings, especially if the urge or need to go to school is a sudden one. Have any of you had this happen to an unschooling family that you know, and what are some words of wisdom for such a situation?

Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2002 11:38:29 AM Central Standard Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:

> I just didn't know what to say to all this... especially since I've always
> argued in favor of unschooling and felt like the message I was getting from
> my friend was that unschooling backfired on her family.
> I totally believe in unschooling but can also see how a situation like this
> can happen and cause bad feelings, especially if the urge or need to go to
> school is a sudden one. Have any of you had this happen to an unschooling
> family that you know, and what are some words of wisdom for such a
> situation?
>

What I would have to say would be really hard to actually say to the person.


She let her kid get in that situation, without ever talking to him about what
public school would demand from him, without helping him prepare for it,
without acquiring a mindset that would smooth the transition? The kid did
not likely know what it was going to be like, but she should have. She
should have warned him, and spoken frankly with him about what he could do to
minimize it.

It was an entirely foreseeable outcome that could have been prevented. I
don't think she was actually unschooling. I believe she was probably not
engaged with her children in the way most unschoolers I know are. IMO.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Myranda

I think the mom should have gotten information from the school ahead of time and found out what the son needed to know.... then given the son the choice to get "up to speed" or not before starting at the school. That's not fair to him, in my opinion, to send him in behind without giving him a chance to catch up first.
Myranda
patti.schmidt2@... writes:

> I just didn't know what to say to all this... especially since I've always
> argued in favor of unschooling and felt like the message I was getting from
> my friend was that unschooling backfired on her family.
> I totally believe in unschooling but can also see how a situation like this
> can happen and cause bad feelings, especially if the urge or need to go to
> school is a sudden one. Have any of you had this happen to an unschooling
> family that you know, and what are some words of wisdom for such a
> situation?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/02 11:24:48 AM, tuckervill@... writes:

<< It was an entirely foreseeable outcome that could have been prevented. I
don't think she was actually unschooling. I believe she was probably not
engaged with her children in the way most unschoolers I know are. >>

When people tell me "But what if my kids want to go back to school?" I say
"If your first priority is making sure they can pop back onto the assembly
line, you might as well buy a curriculum."

I don't deal well with people who have school as an attractive option at any
moment.

But if one of my kids DID want to go to school, I would get some textbooks of
the grade he was going into, and I would coach him on the formats of school
papers, get him to practice writing with a pen, show him mathematical
notation, tell him "No, SERIOUSLY--you have to ask to go to the bathroom,"
etc. Same as I would coach him if he were flying overseas alone, or going
to a month-long summer camp, or getting married and moving away all of a su
dden.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2002 12:58:17 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> But if one of my kids DID want to go to school, I would get some textbooks
> of
> the grade he was going into, and I would coach him on the formats of school
>
> papers, get him to practice writing with a pen, show him mathematical
> notation, tell him "No, SERIOUSLY--you have to ask to go to the bathroom,"
> etc. Same as I would coach him if he were flying overseas alone, or going
>
> to a month-long summer camp, or getting married and moving away all of a su
> dden.
>

Yeah, that's what I mean.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

***She let her kid get in that situation, without ever talking to him about what
public school would demand from him, without helping him prepare for it,
without acquiring a mindset that would smooth the transition? The kid did
not likely know what it was going to be like, but she should have.***

He actually attended school through second grade (prior to homeschooling for five years) so he did have some idea of what it was about. I also believe they hired a tutor for some intense "catching up" for the week prior to his starting, but apparently it didn't help much.

***I
don't think she was actually unschooling.***

They weren't an unschooling family, but they were loosening up and deschooling a lot. She never quite made the paradigm shift, I don't think, but this experience has unfortunately seemed to "prove" to them that unschooling isn't the right path.
I just feel sad about it for some reason.

Patti

[email protected]

***When people tell me "But what if my kids want to go back to school?" I say
"If your first priority is making sure they can pop back onto the assembly
line, you might as well buy a curriculum."***

I don't think that considering that angle (what if they want to go back to school) necessarily means that it's their first priority.
Having personally known a few kids who chose school voluntarily, I don't think it's all that uncommon a scenario. I think it's a logical "what if" question, especially for people new to the idea of unschooling.

***I don't deal well with people who have school as an attractive option at any
moment.***

"Attractive" is a subjective term... the parents might think it's an unattractive option but the kids might still see certain aspects of school as very attractive for whatever reason.

I think part of it is that in many places (definitely where I live) there aren't many options for teenagers who are ready to spread their wings and do things with other teenagers outside of school. I'm not saying that's a good thing- it's not- but still there it is. Coincidentally, both kids I know who chose school over their parents wishes opted to go in their teens even though they loved homeschooling as young children.
One family was radically unschooling (incidentally he had the same problems with the transition), the other was the family I mentioned above.

I guess the reason I wrote about this to the list is that now many people I know are going to use my friend as an example of how unschooling doesn't "work", and I'm trying to get my thoughts together so that I can respond clearly when the topic comes up.

Thanks,
Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2002 1:02:07 PM Central Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> >But if one of my kids DID want to go to school, I would get some textbooks
> >of
> >the grade he was going into, and I would coach him on the formats of
> school
> >
> >papers, get him to practice writing with a pen, show him mathematical
> >notation, tell him "No, SERIOUSLY--you have to ask to go to the bathroom,"
>
> >etc. Same as I would coach him if he were flying overseas alone, or
> going
> >
> >to a month-long summer camp, or getting married and moving away all of a
> su
> >dden.
> >
>
> Yeah, that's what I mean.
>

You know, and I should have said, "that's what I did!" My son did go back to
school, but, he was only unschooled for 4 or 5 years. He already knew a lot
about school. But that didn't mean he didn't need any preparation. We
talked about how he would handle the hoop-jumping and all that. It mattered
not to me whether he was "ahead" or "behind" anyone. He was going in at 10th
grade...he struggled through the required algebra with a little tutoring.
The algebra and the required reading-and-book-reports was just a means to an
end for him. And that's what we talked about--how he would handle the
inevitable disapproval of his cavalier attitude about the whole thing, and
still get what he wanted from the experience.

I think the mom we were talking about fell down on that job. And why does
all the boy's cousins know about his academic status, anyway?

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2002 1:45:03 PM Central Standard Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:

> I guess the reason I wrote about this to the list is that now many people I
> know are going to use my friend as an example of how unschooling doesn't
> "work", and

But she wasn't unschooling, you said.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2002 2:28:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
> I just feel sad about it for some reason.
>
For some reason? Because now she (and others) have "proof" it doesn't work.

Bummer.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> I guess the reason I wrote about this to the list is that now many people I
> know are going to use my friend as an example of how unschooling doesn't
> "work", and

***But she wasn't unschooling, you said.***

True. She wasn't unschooling according to the way *I* would define it.
The way I should have phrased the above sentence is that she will be used as an example of how informal homeschooling (no curriculum or "standards") doesn't work.

Either way, I feel like I'm going to find myself doing more explaining and defending of my choices than usual with this turn of events. (We know many of the same people).

Patti



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/02 1:13:17 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I totally believe in unschooling but can also see how a situation like
this can happen and cause bad feelings, especially if the urge or need to go
to school is a sudden one. Have any of you had this happen to an unschooling
family that you know, and what are some words of wisdom for such a situation?
>>

Well I'd like to start out by saying that I have a hard time believing that
she unschooled the way I define unschooing, otherwise she wouldn't be
concerned about grades or catching up.
If the child is motivated to learn those things simply to keep up with his
peers, what is the point? If he really wants the school experience for the
reasons you mentioned, that shouldn't include stress on the part of the
parent over him being at "grade level".
I do understand why it might bother the child to not be where his peers are,
but for her to blame unschooling shows me that she didn't truly get it.
Most 13 y.o.'s aren't too interested in grammar, writing etc...quite yet.
Fairly common. Or often they are just beginning to use those things with real
life applications.
I certainly don't see how one could blame unschooling.
If she is giving her younger children lessons in order to prepare them for a
future that may not happen, that is not trust in unschooling.

If that were my child, I would have gotten in contact with the district and
found out what would be expected in that school for that age and given my
child the information.
Then I would have left it up to my child as to whether or not having those
skills was important before attending school there.
If not, I would be fine with that. Let them get out of school what they
want/need at that time and don't make a big deal out of grades or levels.
If my child did want to be with his peers I would have brainstormed with him
on how to deal with that.
Sounds like the mother is using the convenient scapegoat of unschooling when
she may not have fully trusted it in the first place.

Ren
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
And remember,
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived"

Tia Leschke

> A friend of mine who's been homeschooling (not quite unschooling but
heading in that direction) for the past five years recently enrolled her 13
year old son in public school... his choice. He wanted to be with his
friends and cousins who went to the school, plus he wanted to play on the
basketball team which wasn't going to happen unless he enrolled. Anyway, he
has been "assessed" to be on a much lower math "level" than his schooled
counterparts and is struggling to catch up. He also is having a hard time
with grammar, punctuation, capitalizing, and other skills that are
considered a given in school by eighth grade. Needless to say, the school
officials, family and friends, (and even her son) are blaming homeschooling
and the fact that they haven't used a curriculum for years.
>
This is one reason why I have discouraged Lars from going to school. At one
point we said he could only go if he was near grade level in the basics.
(This was for grade 8.) The next year, I said he could go, but we'd better
start now getting him caught up. (This was in the spring.) I lucked out
that summer when we visited my cousin, who is a special ed teacher. She
spent the dinner talking about this kid she wanted to help and that one, who
fell through the cracks. It was all about bureaucratic principals and
territorial teachers. At the end of the meal, she turned and asked him what
he was planning for the coming year. Was he going to school? He thought
for a second, and then said no. I was happy.
Tia

[email protected]

***I'm thinking that mabye the problem wasn't lack of
curriculum and formal "lessons" (as the detractors will say) but actually lack
of effective strewing and communication.***

I just wanted to add that by "effective" strewing I didn't mean strewing that results in a child at "grade level."
I meant strewing that results in a child with enough interests and passions that eventually any basic skills will be learned painlessly and inadvertantly.
Still thinking...
Patti

Tia Leschke

>
> Either way, I feel like I'm going to find myself doing more explaining and
defending of my choices than usual with this turn of events. (We know many
of the same people).

I guess the only thing you can do is to point out that homeschooling in
general, and unschooling especially, is not a one-size-fits-all proposition.
Kids get interested in academics at widely different ages if they're left to
decide. This kid had just not decided to get academic yet. Anyway, there
are probably plenty of kids at that school who are at about the same level
as he is, at least if they do the automatic promotion thing they do here.
Tia

elaine greenwood-hyde

Hi,
why is it assumed that unschooling is to blame if a child is 'behind'
(that's such a weird term) if they end up going to school. There are lots
and lots of children who've been through the whole school process from start
to finish and are 'behind'. Lots of kids when they are younger do well in
school but find they get 'stuck' as they get older it's not that unusual.
Not every person is of an academic persuasion, that doesn't mean they don't
have other talents, what it does mean is that school doesn't value them. Of
every class how many children are deemed to be 'behind'? I don't think
there's ever any class where all the children are of the exact same ability.
The assumption is of course that any child who's home ed never mind
unschooled and appears to be 'behind' has missed out at home and would've
been better off in school or had curricula forced down their throat, when in
fact they may have been better off being at home where they could develop
the talents they have unfettered by the constraints of a school that only
values one kind of person. I would like to know how the child feels who's
been 'behind' in school? Did it do their confidence any good? I doubt it
very much. They may well spend the rest of their lives comcentrating on what
they can't do rather than on what they can. HTH


Regards, Elaine

ps my punctuation stinks! :)





_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/02 5:45:48 PM, elainegh8@... writes:

<< Of
every class how many children are deemed to be 'behind'? >>

A third or more, in my teaching experience.

Stephanie Elms

> << Of
> every class how many children are deemed to be 'behind'? >>
>
> A third or more, in my teaching experience.

Had an interesting conversation with the mom of Jason's best friend Eric. Eric
just started kindergarten in Sept. She had the first parent teacher conference
right before Halloween. Eric has been identified as needing extra help with
reading. Seems that he scored low on a test on identifying the alphabet and/or
letter sounds. He will be receiving extra reading help.

His mom is not concerned...knows that he will pick it up when he is ready and thinks
that it is a little ridicules that after a whole month and a half of school that
he has been labeled as behind. Did not seem to be concerned that he might pick up
on the label (she said that they provide extra help informally with aides who come
into the class).

And then there is his other friend Joey (also in kindergarten) who gets to go to
pizza hut because he read 12 books last month....

I am so glad that we are homeschooling!

Stephanie E.

[email protected]

<< Of
every class how many children are deemed to be 'behind'? >>

***A third or more, in my teaching experience.***

Sandra,
About how many in school, in your experience, would you say are deemed to be three or four years "behind?" Meaning, say, an eighth grader who was deemed to be on a fourth grade math level? I'm genuinely curious, because I thought that kids generally repeated grades if they couldn't (or didn't want to) keep up.

About schools and credit/blame... I always find it interesting that if a child does "well" (by school standards) the teacher/school takes the credit, but if the child does "poorly" the child/family gets the blame.

I've been told by a skeptical family member that even if my children do "well" in life after unschooling they'd know that it was because my children are "just smart" and not because homeschooling was "successful." In other words, they'd be successful in spite of homeschooling, not because of it.

While he was saying this I was thinking of the phrase "first do no harm," and how important that would be to success. Then again, my definition of success was probably quite different from his anyway. :-)

Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/02 5:15:16 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I'm thinking that mabye the problem wasn't lack of curriculum and formal
"lessons" (as the detractors will say) but actually lack of effective
strewing and communication. >>

I think that is entirely possible.
And the child was schooled previously, plus had a Mom not entirely trustful
of him learning on his own.....maybe that's more of the problem than she
wants to see.


Ren
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
And remember,
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived"

mabeitzel

"I would like to know how the child feels who's
been 'behind' in school? Did it do their confidence any good?"

My 8 yr. old son has been in school until now (3rd grade), so he was
in school through 2nd grade and I can tell you that I watched a
bubbly bright friendly child's self-esteem fall apart. He tried to
maintain himself day in and day out as if he were still that happy-
go-lucky kid. A few weeks after homeschooling he told me "I'm not
dumb anymore." That should answer your question. Now we are trying
to change all of that, but it is difficult. He doesn't want to do
any "schoolish" things at all. I figure in his mind it seems
useless when he has spent so much time struggling. He was
always "behind" in school. I was constantly being told..."he's only
on a K level or 1st level and he really struggles." All of that
hasn't done any of us any good! I was even told by the prinipal
here that "it sounds like school has failed him." But she still
wanted me to put him back in once "I" built up his self-esteem!
Insane really.
Michelle B.


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "elaine greenwood-hyde"
<elainegh8@h...> wrote:
> Hi,
> why is it assumed that unschooling is to blame if a child
is 'behind'
> (that's such a weird term) if they end up going to school. There
are lots
> and lots of children who've been through the whole school process
from start
> to finish and are 'behind'. Lots of kids when they are younger do
well in
> school but find they get 'stuck' as they get older it's not that
unusual.
> Not every person is of an academic persuasion, that doesn't mean
they don't
> have other talents, what it does mean is that school doesn't value
them. Of
> every class how many children are deemed to be 'behind'? I don't
think
> there's ever any class where all the children are of the exact
same ability.
> The assumption is of course that any child who's home ed never
mind
> unschooled and appears to be 'behind' has missed out at home and
would've
> been better off in school or had curricula forced down their
throat, when in
> fact they may have been better off being at home where they could
develop
> the talents they have unfettered by the constraints of a school
that only
> values one kind of person. I would like to know how the child
feels who's
> been 'behind' in school? Did it do their confidence any good? I
doubt it
> very much. They may well spend the rest of their lives
comcentrating on what
> they can't do rather than on what they can. HTH
>
>
> Regards, Elaine
>
> ps my punctuation stinks! :)
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Mary Bianco

>From: <patti.schmidt2@...>

<<Either way, I feel like I'm going to find myself doing more explaining and
defending of my choices than usual with this turn of events. (We know many
of the same people).>>


And no doubt all those that don't agree with homeschooling to begin with are
going to use this in every way they can to try and shoot you down. I
understand what you are saying and would arm myself with some great words.
Just don't get flustered when the battle starts and keep you wits about you
with all the ignorant comments that will no doubt come up. Of course knowing
me I would probably just say I couldn't possibly have a discussion on
homeschooling with someone who had no idea what they were talking about. I
mean it doesn't sound like you are anticipating genuine questions of
interest.

Mary B


_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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Betsy

**About schools and credit/blame... I always find it interesting that if
a child does "well" (by school standards) the teacher/school takes the
credit, but if the child does "poorly" the child/family gets the blame.**


I think this is a great insight.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2002 10:34:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
> About how many in school, in your experience, would you say are deemed to be
> three or four years "behind?" Meaning, say, an eighth grader who was
> deemed to be on a fourth grade math level? I'm genuinely curious, because
> I thought that kids generally repeated grades if they couldn't (or didn't
> want to) keep up.
>

There was a boy, Gene, who was a year ahead of me in school. But Gene was two
or three years BEHIND academically. He was tall and slow and
"dumb"---farmboy-like. He was also kind and gentle and sweet. Because of his
size, he wasn't picked on by the students; the teachers were a different
matter!

This was a private school, so if ya' got the $$.... Anyway, he had plenty of
tutors but was always at the bottom of the pile. He had to have barely
squeaked through, but he graduated from a well-respected private school.

His brother was in my class. Burns wasn't much quicker---but maybe only one
year or so "behind". I hated watching them struggle so! I'll have to do some
looking and find out where they are for an update. (Probably CEO's of Fortune
500 companies! <G>)

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/02 8:34:26 PM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:

<< Sandra,
About how many in school, in your experience, would you say are deemed to be
three or four years "behind?" Meaning, say, an eighth grader who was deemed
to be on a fourth grade math level? I'm genuinely curious, because I thought
that kids generally repeated grades if they couldn't (or didn't want to) keep
up. >>

I taught 7th and 9th, English. I had a few kids who could just barely read.
One seventh grader who couldn't, and he used to come and ask me for help, and
it was heartbreaking--he just wasn't getting it. Years later he did, but by
then he had been assured by dozens of professionals that he wasn't to
consider ever living a normal life. Damned shame. He was a nice, nice guy.

Those kids who were way "ahead" had gotten there entirely on their own.
Those who were behind were there SOLELY because of school's levels and
measures.

The idea of "social promotion" is universal now, I think. In one-room
schoolrooms, it hardly mattered what "grade" someone was in, although they
might be doing work with younger kids sometimes. But in a big school
district with separate buildings and separate rooms and separate recess...
well it became too dangerous to have BIG kids with very little kids. They
could get hurt by those big "dumb" kids. AND, worse, when puberty comes, you
don't want some aware/sexualized big kid in with young, innocent kids.

And so the law came about (where I was, anyway, and I'm guessing every other
state in the U.S. for liability insurance purposes if no other) that no one
could fail more than twice in a school career, and maybe not even twice, if
they joined up late. Two years older than the "ideal" was the limit. So if
(for example) 8th graders turned 13 by September 1, then the very oldest 8th
grader would be 15. And I've rarely seen anyone fail more than once, and
those failures were almost always boys failing first grade or 8th grade
(baffling first or second year, or beginning of puberty and some anger and
resentment being expressed)

That's another reason schools hesitate STRONGLY to advance kids, because if a
young kid is put up a grade or two, they're in physical and sexual danger
(and the school's liability is high for endangering them). So sometimes kids
are put ahead by one year, but not much more.

Sandra

Natural Simplicity Momma

This is all pretty interesting. I have a 12 yo DS that we held back 2 years in public schools and then withdrew him a year because he was so afraid of school. He would get sick every morning. This was all 3 years ago. We then put him and his sister in a SMALL (75 students TOTAL k-12) for 2 years. He is still way behind what the SOLs would say a child his age should be BUT he is learning. He is not into math and reading. He loves to draw, play computer games, watch the discovery channel and be a boy. We started out HSing with the school at home approach. I started to see the same frustration, fear, and attitude so we have totally backed up. I keep having MAJOR panic attacks with him and the others at home. I printed off just about every article on unschooling.com and read them during my panic times <grin>

Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
naturalsimplicity.ewahm.com
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Myranda

This reminds me of a guy a worked with when I was 17.... he was a very tall, broad (think football player type) black guy.... a year older than me, in the 11th grade. He'd bring his homework to work with him. I closed with him two nights a week. The week after I started working there, I realized he couldn't read - at all. After he realized that I wouldn't make fun or put him down, he started asking me to read him his homework instructions, and some other things. After we'd been friends for several months, I asked him why he couldn't read. His answer - "I don't know, the teachers just told me I was too dumb". Yeah, right. This guy worked two jobs plus went to school, and could take anything electrical apart and put it back together in a matter of hours. He hooked up the security system at the store in three hours flat - of course, never reading the directions. Come to find out, no one had ever taught him phonics. He knew the letters, but could not figure out what sounds they made, and he didn't have the ability to memorize sight words. By the time I got married and left 4 months later, he was reading. All he needed was someone to tell him which letters made which sounds.
Myranda

From: SandraDodd@...
I had a few kids who could just barely read.
One seventh grader who couldn't, and he used to come and ask me for help, and
it was heartbreaking--he just wasn't getting it. Years later he did, but by
then he had been assured by dozens of professionals that he wasn't to
consider ever living a normal life. Damned shame. He was a nice, nice guy.
Sandra




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susan marie

in response to the question on what schools do for the confidence of
kids who are "below grade level" (an artificial thing, at best)--

I taught a ninth grade math class of students who had spent most of
their elementary years "behind". At this catholic school, they were put
in a separate, slower math class with a small class size - 10 - 15 in a
class. They were both embarrassed to be in the class, but glad to be
able to keep up and understand what was going on. I was so amazed at how
low their self-esteem was, at how they referred to themselves as stupid.

I loved teaching these kids - it was so rewarding to see them "get it",
and to help them feel good about themselves and their ability to do
math. I think I was already an unschooler, even then, lol. Nearby
teachers told me that they had to close their doors, because my class
was too noisy. Another teacher was indignant that I let the kids use
colored chalk to work problems on the board - it was too messy and what
was wrong with white. The kids liked the colored chalk -- it was silly,
but really, how important was it what kind of chalk I let them use?

Another time, I simply could not figure out why one girl wasn't
understanding what I was trying to explain. She was frustrated and so
was I. Then, the boy next to her ( a kid with a reputation of being both
a "bad" student and a trouble maker in the school. I didn't have any
problems - he was just a kid who spoke up when he had something to say.
Authoritarian types don't always like that.) Anyway, he shouted out,
that he knew what she didn't get, could he explain it to her. So I said
yes, and sat down. He scooted his desk over, and the two them put their
heads together while the rest of us waited. Trust me, in this strict
Catholic school (prob most schools), this was a "stay after for extra
help" situation. Well, after a few minutes, a light bulb went on for the
girl, who was proud and delighted that she "got it". And the boy was
very, very proud of himself. We went on with whatever that day's lesson
was.

Self-esteem comes from helping kids get to where they need to go, and
from helping them accomplish things (and knowing when to get out of the
way). It does not come from a one-size fits all education, and lots of
nice touchy feely stickers and things for "self-esteem". It comes from
being engaged, accomplishing things on your terms. The way I approached
my classes was considered radical by the more authoritarian types, and
it used to drive them nuts that my classes tested out just as well as
theirs did -- afterall, my classes were noisy and had fun. (couldn't
possibly be learning anything, could they?)

Schools shouldn't stomp on kids' self-esteem, but too often they do.
Confidence comes from real accomplishment, from being treated with
compassion and respect, and from being engaged with and owning what you
do. How often does that happen in schools? They are not set up that way,
and teachers who try to do that are often treated as trouble-makers
themselves. Did you know that the average career for a teacher is ten
years? I lasted nine full time and a few more part-time. The schools are
chewing up a lot of teachers as well as kids.

(sorry, off the soap box)

just my two cents,
susan

On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 12:21 AM, mabeitzel wrote:

> "I would like to know how the child feels who's
> been 'behind' in school? Did it do their confidence any good?"
>
> My 8 yr. old son has been in school until now (3rd grade), so he was
> in school through 2nd grade and I can tell you that I watched a
> bubbly bright friendly child's self-esteem fall apart.  He tried to
> maintain himself day in and day out as if he were still that happy-
> go-lucky kid.  A few weeks after homeschooling he told me "I'm not
> dumb anymore."  That should answer your question.  Now we are trying
> to change all of that, but it is difficult.  He doesn't want to do
> any "schoolish" things at all.  I figure in his mind it seems
> useless when he has spent so much time struggling.  He was
> always "behind" in school.  I was constantly being told..."he's only
> on a K level or 1st level and he really struggles."  All of that
> hasn't done any of us any good!  I was even told by the prinipal
> here that "it sounds like school has failed him."  But she still
> wanted me to put him back in once "I" built up his self-esteem! 
> Insane really.
> Michelle B.
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "elaine greenwood-hyde"
> <elainegh8@h...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >     why is it assumed that unschooling is to blame if a child
> is 'behind'
> > (that's such a weird term) if they end up going to school. There
> are lots
> > and lots of children who've been through the whole school process
> from start
> > to finish and are 'behind'. Lots of kids when they are younger do
> well in
> > school but find they get 'stuck' as they get older it's not that
> unusual.
> > Not every person is of an academic persuasion, that doesn't mean
> they don't
> > have other talents, what it does mean is that school doesn't value
> them. Of
> > every class how many children are deemed to be 'behind'? I don't
> think
> > there's ever any class where all the children are of the exact
> same ability.
> > The assumption is of course that any child who's  home ed never
> mind
> > unschooled and appears to be 'behind' has missed out at home and
> would've
> > been better off in school or had curricula forced down their
> throat, when in
> > fact they may have been better off being at home where they could
> develop
> > the talents they have unfettered by the constraints of a school
> that only
> > values one kind of person. I would like to know how the child
> feels who's
> > been 'behind' in school? Did it do their confidence any good?  I
> doubt it
> > very much. They may well spend the rest of their lives
> comcentrating on what
> > they can't do rather than on what they can. HTH
> >
> >
> >                         Regards, Elaine
> >
> > ps my punctuation stinks! :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* 
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
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> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
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>
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peace,
Susan

"Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which
we arrive at that goal."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/02 8:48:16 AM, scribblers2@... writes:

<< Nearby

teachers told me that they had to close their doors, because my class

was too noisy. Another teacher was indignant that I let the kids use

colored chalk to work problems on the board - >>

Cool! Me too.

It's WAY more fun with colored chalk, and if you're doing language, you can
underline different words and phrases with colored chalk, or get more
ballad-verses on a smaller chalkboard with colored lines between verses, or
changing colors.

Some teachers just don't know what's fun.

Sandra

susan marie

Hi Sandra,

:-) agreed. It seems that everything is easier if you're enjoying it.
Once in high school we got in trouble for having too much fun in gym
class. (talk about teachers who needed to lighten up.)

another time I put smiley faces and sad faces in for the x's and y's,
because I sensed the kids were intimidated by the algebraic notation --
must be too hard because it looks so different. After they got done
laughing ( a math teacher who's silly? how'd that ever happen?) they
were able to do it. It worked though, they relaxed and realized that
they could get it.

We use colored chalk now too, but usually it's on the driveway -- a
really, really BIG chalk board! :-) One time they turned the driveway
into a game board.. a sort of candyland type thing, made a die out of a
cube-shaped cardboard box, and they were the game pieces. It was pretty
cool. Soon other kids were wandering over to see what they were doing.


have a good day all ...
Susan


On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 10:54 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 11/20/02 8:48:16 AM, scribblers2@...
> writes:
>
> <<  Nearby
>
> teachers told me that they had to close their doors, because my class
>
> was too noisy. Another teacher was indignant that I let the kids use
>
> colored chalk to work problems on the board - >>
>
> Cool!  Me too.
>
> It's WAY more fun with colored chalk, and if you're doing language, you
> can
> underline different words and phrases with colored chalk, or get more
> ballad-verses on a smaller chalkboard with colored lines between
> verses, or
> changing colors.
>
> Some teachers just don't know what's fun.
>
> Sandra
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
> list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
> an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
peace,
Susan

"Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which
we arrive at that goal."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]