kayb85

I'm hoping someone on the list can help me in some way! My 5 year
old has been playing Freddi the Fish a lot, the one where you can
make your own mazes. He thinks it is so cool, and was talking to his
sister (9) about how cool it would be if you could make your own
computer games to do whatever you wanted. He asked dh and I if he
could, and dh said he would look into it. Neither of us already know
how to make our own computer games. Dh knows more about computers
than I do, but he's afraid it could take months to learn what he
needs to learn to teach my son how to do it and by then my son might
be really frustrated. Already he's asking me to write notes, "Don't
forget about me making my own game".


Does anyone have anywhere to point us so that we can learn how to do
this QUICK?

And in the meantime, does anyone know of any pre-programmed computer
games that let kids design their own games?

Sheila

Sherry

I've been lurking for a few weeks, trying to figure out where I want to
fit in the Homeschooling spectrum. When I first heard of unschooling (a
few years ago) I thought it was way out there and completely dismissed
it as too "hippie-ish". I knew (and still know) that I want to
homeschool. My children are too precious to subject to the public school
system, and for the most part I think private schools are even worse. My
oldest DS will be ready for kindergarten next school year, but here in
IL children don't officially have to be in school until 7, so
technically I have a few years before I have to make any "real"
decisions. I've been researching all the different Homeschooling
methods...and I must admit that they all appeal to me in different ways.
Classical education makes lots of sense but sounds too structured to me.
Although to me it does make sense to study Latin as it is the basis for
a lot languages and it would (probably) make learning a foreign language
easier. Unit studies sounds like lots of fun, not as structured as the
classical approach. I'm leaning toward unit studies. Using a cirruculum
sounds like lots of work to me, and maybe too structured, but I think I
could make it as loose as I want. The thing is my DS LOVES structure. He
likes to know what is happening next, and what is expected of him.
Sometimes when I'm making dinner I'll get out dough to play with, or
paper and crayons, and he asks me what I want him to make. I tell him to
make whatever he wants. Right now he's in a preschool program, it's
pretty structured and he loves it. Unschooling I think would be hard for
him, and honestly, I'm a bit uncomfortable with no structure. I could
buy one of those $20 workbook types of curriculums so I have an idea of
what topics to introduce. I still have some time for research. I totally
buy into the philosophy of child lead learning. I don't want to force my
children to learn anything that does not interest them. But I am not
sure I have it in me to totally let them do whatever they want. My
oldest is so eager to learn to read...I'm looking into phonics programs
for him. But for now we are playing with fridge alphabet magnets and
learning the different sound combinations. He surprised me and put
together the word "BED" all by himself. He really wants to learn to
read, now I have to figure out how best to teach him.

Okay, now for my questions...

Is it still unschooling if you include typical school activities,
textbooks, workbooks etc if that is what the child wants to do? My
oldest loves workbooks. He does not do them in order; he will flip
through them and do the pages that interest him. For a while it was the
numbers pages, but now he is doing the alphabet pages. So if I pull
together a unit study when he shows an interest and lead the learning is
this still unschooling?

During my research I've discovered Reggio Emilia, an Italian method of
early childhood education. Here's a link that I found interesting. This
sounds very unschooling to me...but would it still be considered
unschooling if you sent your children to a school? There's a school here
that flaunts it uses this method. I'm not really considering sending my
children to this school, but I am intrigued by it.
education,http://www.teachermagazine.org/tmstory.cfm?slug=03emilia.h14

Another issue I have is my DH. I know this is fairly common, but he is
not supportive of unschooling. He does not even want to talk about
Homeschooling very often. I'm the one who wants to do it, so he's kinda
dropped it in my lap to take of. I have not really tried to sell
unschooling because I am on the fence myself.

Thanx for reading, and for the most part I've enjoyed this list.
Sherry - Mom to two beautiful boys (4 1/2 y.o. and 2 y.o.)

Fetteroll

on 11/18/02 11:32 AM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:

> Does anyone have anywhere to point us so that we can learn how to do
> this QUICK?

http://www.stagecast.com

Download both the evaluation version and the tutorial. The tutorial is
really good.

(There are versions for both Mac and that other computer.)

I'm forgetting the term for the way it writes software, but you move the
characters and the program writes the code. But you can also write your own
code too so it's good for beginners and more advanced programmers.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/02 1:36:13 PM, juicemom@... writes:

<< Right now he's in a preschool program, it's
pretty structured and he loves it. Unschooling I think would be hard for
him, and honestly, I'm a bit uncomfortable with no structure. >>

If you like school and he likes school and you're not comfortable with the
idea of unschooling and you don't think it would be easy for him? (WHAT?)

...then why are you asking us about it?

Read www.unschooling.com and sandradodd.com and follow the links and decide
whether you want to do it.

But for us to talk you into something you don't want to do is kind of a waste
of our time, isn't it?

Sandra

Betsy

**Classical education makes lots of sense but sounds too structured to me.**

Honestly, I'm amazed it hasn't driven more women to suicide.
(Homeschooling moms must be a pretty tough breed. <g>) Classical Ed.
just looks extremely time-consuming and overly ambitious to me. But I'm
one of those fluffy people who thinks that play and humor make the world
go 'round.

Betsy

Fetteroll

on 11/18/02 3:32 PM, Sherry at juicemom@... wrote:

> I've been researching all the different Homeschooling
> methods...and I must admit that they all appeal to me in different ways.

The goals of unschooling are different than all the other methods you
mention. The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be
who she is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a side
effect.

Just as people plant vegetable gardens to raise vegetables. Along the way
pollinators come and it's even a vital part of the process, but the purpose
of planting the garden isn't to attract pollinators.

The purpose of the other homeschooling methods is to give to the child
something that appeals to the parents. In a way formal educational methods
are like those cool educational toys that parents want to give their kids
for their birthday. What you're buying with a curriculum is an image of what
you want your child to be. The image may be as simple as being prepared to
be whatever they want to be. And yet it is still like picturing your child
playing with the super deluxe Erector set you're planning to give them. But
what if the child has no interest in Erector sets? What if what the child
really wants is a Nintendo system?

I think many parents see education as a gift they can give their children.

But what if the recipent doesn't want the gift? If the purpose of giving a
gift is to satisfy some need in the giver for the recipient to have the
gift, is it really a gift? If the gift giver has emotional stake in the
recipent appreciating the gift and the effort involved in providing the
gift, is it really a gift?

I think it would be helpful for parents choosing formal education to see it
honestly. Despite the pictures of happy children using the various formal
curriculums, it's not about giving a gift. It's about meeting *parents'*
needs. It's about molding and shaping a fellow human being against their
will into something we want them to be.

That sounds harsh, but if it weren't against their will, then the children
would choose to do it on their own. If it weren't against their will, there
would never be instances where the parent is coercing the child to do
something for the curriculum that the child doesn't want to do. There would
never be instances where the child can't say "I don't want to finish that."

Unschooling is about giving them the freedom to be who they are. Formal
education is about molding them into something we think is valuable to be.

> The thing is my DS LOVES structure. He
> likes to know what is happening next, and what is expected of him.

Unschooling doesn't mean it must be unstructured. The days can be as
structured as your family needs them to be. What isn't structured, though,
is learning. If your family has a lot of activites, you can structure home
time into the week. But it wouldn't be unschooling to set aside a specific
time for them to do math or workbooks. If *a particular child* would like to
set up their own schedule to do that, then it's fine to help him set it up
and help him adjust it to meet whatever goal he's trying to meet, but the
schedule is his, not the parent's to enforce.

> Sometimes when I'm making dinner I'll get out dough to play with, or
> paper and crayons, and he asks me what I want him to make. I tell him to
> make whatever he wants. Right now he's in a preschool program, it's
> pretty structured and he loves it.

I think if everyone had independent creator in them, there would be no
picture book illustrators, or product designers, or wallpaper designers, or
architects, or programmers, or ...

Doing anything you want can be overwhelming. Working around natural
limitations, meeting some predefined goal in your own way can be challenging
and inspiring. So when he asks, think of yourself as the picture book writer
and him as the illustrator and give him a spark to run with. If you're not
good at thinking up things spontaneously, brainstorm a wild list of things
and keep it in the kitchen.

> I'm a bit uncomfortable with no structure.

Who is the homeschooling for? Them or you? Whose needs is homeschooling
supposed to meet? Theirs or yours?

> I don't want to force my
> children to learn anything that does not interest them. But I am not
> sure I have it in me to totally let them do whatever they want.

Because you're unclear on what your goals are. And you're intertwining your
needs and agendas with their needs.

> Is it still unschooling if you include typical school activities,
> textbooks, workbooks etc if that is what the child wants to do? My
> oldest loves workbooks. He does not do them in order; he will flip
> through them and do the pages that interest him. For a while it was the
> numbers pages, but now he is doing the alphabet pages.

If the child has full freedom to choose to do it or not, choose to do it in
whatever manner they want, then it's unschooling.

But I think I'd also be aware that I might be getting satisfaction out of
seeing the workbooks being done and make sure I was being as attentive in
meeting their other needs. For instance I'd want to be aware that I was
putting a high priority on replacing finished workbooks, but was setting a
low priority on things I saw as less important like making the trip across
town so they can buy the video game they've been saving for.

> So if I pull
> together a unit study when he shows an interest and lead the learning is
> this still unschooling?

If the child can say "No thanks, I'd rather go watch TV" and you be
perfectly okay with that then it's unschooling.

> During my research I've discovered Reggio Emilia, an Italian method of
> early childhood education. Here's a link that I found interesting. This
> sounds very unschooling to me...but would it still be considered
> unschooling if you sent your children to a school?

It sounds like you're uncomfortable with unschooling but want to stretch the
definition of unschooling to encompass your comfort zone. What is it about
unschooling that you want? Ask yourself why you want to be able to call this
unschooling.

Unschooling *will* make you uncomfortable. You can't have the benefits of
child chosen learning without letting go of control. You can meet your need
for guarantees by sending them to school or using some formal educational
method, but you have to let go of the illusion that it has anything to do
with child chosen learning.

You can let them do some choosing and you do the rest, or let them choose
from a selection of things you feel are worthwhile, but it won't be
unschooling any more than eating some meat is vegetarianism. (You might try
an eclectic list for that style.)

Though there are benefits to be had by being mostly vegetarian over eating a
heavily meat based diet, by letting the kids choose some over choosing
everything for them, there are benefits that you need to give up. One of
which is the label vegetarian and the label unschooling.

As for the school, if a child can go when they want to and not go when they
don't, if they can do whatever they want to when they get there and can say
"No, I'm perfectly happy doing what I'm doing" to activities suggested, then
I guess it's as close as a school could come to unschooling. (That's the
theory behind Sudbury Valley schools.) But since schools aren't the whole
world, and can only present a slice of the world, they have to use some
value judgements on what is better or more important so it would be pretty
impossible for a school not to have an agenda. It may match your agenda
which is generally the criteria parents judge a school by. But does it match
your child's agenda?

> Another issue I have is my DH. I know this is fairly common, but he is
> not supportive of unschooling. He does not even want to talk about
> Homeschooling very often. I'm the one who wants to do it, so he's kinda
> dropped it in my lap to take of. I have not really tried to sell
> unschooling because I am on the fence myself.

There is a Reluctant Spouse folder on the message boards at
http://www.unschooling.com

But you can't help someone come around to an idea if you're uncertain of
what you want.

Joyce

Sherry

WOW! Thank you Joyce! You have definitely given me a lot to think about.
I did not realize why I was so on the fence about unschooling. It really
does appeal to me, but there was just "something" that did not feel
right. Luckily I have time to work through MY issues so I can come up
with the best homeschooling environment for my children.

Thank you so much for you helpful response!

Sherry

-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:04 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] some thoughts and questions

on 11/18/02 3:32 PM, Sherry at juicemom@... wrote:

> I've been researching all the different Homeschooling
> methods...and I must admit that they all appeal to me in different
ways.

The goals of unschooling are different than all the other methods you
mention. The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child
be
who she is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a
side
effect.

Just as people plant vegetable gardens to raise vegetables. Along the
way
pollinators come and it's even a vital part of the process, but the
purpose
of planting the garden isn't to attract pollinators.

The purpose of the other homeschooling methods is to give to the child
something that appeals to the parents. In a way formal educational
methods
are like those cool educational toys that parents want to give their
kids
for their birthday. What you're buying with a curriculum is an image of
what
you want your child to be. The image may be as simple as being prepared
to
be whatever they want to be. And yet it is still like picturing your
child
playing with the super deluxe Erector set you're planning to give them.
But
what if the child has no interest in Erector sets? What if what the
child
really wants is a Nintendo system?

I think many parents see education as a gift they can give their
children.

But what if the recipent doesn't want the gift? If the purpose of giving
a
gift is to satisfy some need in the giver for the recipient to have the
gift, is it really a gift? If the gift giver has emotional stake in the
recipent appreciating the gift and the effort involved in providing the
gift, is it really a gift?

I think it would be helpful for parents choosing formal education to see
it
honestly. Despite the pictures of happy children using the various
formal
curriculums, it's not about giving a gift. It's about meeting *parents'*
needs. It's about molding and shaping a fellow human being against their
will into something we want them to be.

That sounds harsh, but if it weren't against their will, then the
children
would choose to do it on their own. If it weren't against their will,
there
would never be instances where the parent is coercing the child to do
something for the curriculum that the child doesn't want to do. There
would
never be instances where the child can't say "I don't want to finish
that."

Unschooling is about giving them the freedom to be who they are. Formal
education is about molding them into something we think is valuable to
be.

> The thing is my DS LOVES structure. He
> likes to know what is happening next, and what is expected of him.

Unschooling doesn't mean it must be unstructured. The days can be as
structured as your family needs them to be. What isn't structured,
though,
is learning. If your family has a lot of activites, you can structure
home
time into the week. But it wouldn't be unschooling to set aside a
specific
time for them to do math or workbooks. If *a particular child* would
like to
set up their own schedule to do that, then it's fine to help him set it
up
and help him adjust it to meet whatever goal he's trying to meet, but
the
schedule is his, not the parent's to enforce.

> Sometimes when I'm making dinner I'll get out dough to play with, or
> paper and crayons, and he asks me what I want him to make. I tell him
to
> make whatever he wants. Right now he's in a preschool program, it's
> pretty structured and he loves it.

I think if everyone had independent creator in them, there would be no
picture book illustrators, or product designers, or wallpaper designers,
or
architects, or programmers, or ...

Doing anything you want can be overwhelming. Working around natural
limitations, meeting some predefined goal in your own way can be
challenging
and inspiring. So when he asks, think of yourself as the picture book
writer
and him as the illustrator and give him a spark to run with. If you're
not
good at thinking up things spontaneously, brainstorm a wild list of
things
and keep it in the kitchen.

> I'm a bit uncomfortable with no structure.

Who is the homeschooling for? Them or you? Whose needs is homeschooling
supposed to meet? Theirs or yours?

> I don't want to force my
> children to learn anything that does not interest them. But I am not
> sure I have it in me to totally let them do whatever they want.

Because you're unclear on what your goals are. And you're intertwining
your
needs and agendas with their needs.

> Is it still unschooling if you include typical school activities,
> textbooks, workbooks etc if that is what the child wants to do? My
> oldest loves workbooks. He does not do them in order; he will flip
> through them and do the pages that interest him. For a while it was
the
> numbers pages, but now he is doing the alphabet pages.

If the child has full freedom to choose to do it or not, choose to do it
in
whatever manner they want, then it's unschooling.

But I think I'd also be aware that I might be getting satisfaction out
of
seeing the workbooks being done and make sure I was being as attentive
in
meeting their other needs. For instance I'd want to be aware that I was
putting a high priority on replacing finished workbooks, but was setting
a
low priority on things I saw as less important like making the trip
across
town so they can buy the video game they've been saving for.

> So if I pull
> together a unit study when he shows an interest and lead the learning
is
> this still unschooling?

If the child can say "No thanks, I'd rather go watch TV" and you be
perfectly okay with that then it's unschooling.

> During my research I've discovered Reggio Emilia, an Italian method of
> early childhood education. Here's a link that I found interesting.
This
> sounds very unschooling to me...but would it still be considered
> unschooling if you sent your children to a school?

It sounds like you're uncomfortable with unschooling but want to stretch
the
definition of unschooling to encompass your comfort zone. What is it
about
unschooling that you want? Ask yourself why you want to be able to call
this
unschooling.

Unschooling *will* make you uncomfortable. You can't have the benefits
of
child chosen learning without letting go of control. You can meet your
need
for guarantees by sending them to school or using some formal
educational
method, but you have to let go of the illusion that it has anything to
do
with child chosen learning.

You can let them do some choosing and you do the rest, or let them
choose
from a selection of things you feel are worthwhile, but it won't be
unschooling any more than eating some meat is vegetarianism. (You might
try
an eclectic list for that style.)

Though there are benefits to be had by being mostly vegetarian over
eating a
heavily meat based diet, by letting the kids choose some over choosing
everything for them, there are benefits that you need to give up. One of
which is the label vegetarian and the label unschooling.

As for the school, if a child can go when they want to and not go when
they
don't, if they can do whatever they want to when they get there and can
say
"No, I'm perfectly happy doing what I'm doing" to activities suggested,
then
I guess it's as close as a school could come to unschooling. (That's the
theory behind Sudbury Valley schools.) But since schools aren't the
whole
world, and can only present a slice of the world, they have to use some
value judgements on what is better or more important so it would be
pretty
impossible for a school not to have an agenda. It may match your agenda
which is generally the criteria parents judge a school by. But does it
match
your child's agenda?

> Another issue I have is my DH. I know this is fairly common, but he is
> not supportive of unschooling. He does not even want to talk about
> Homeschooling very often. I'm the one who wants to do it, so he's
kinda
> dropped it in my lap to take of. I have not really tried to sell
> unschooling because I am on the fence myself.

There is a Reluctant Spouse folder on the message boards at
http://www.unschooling.com

But you can't help someone come around to an idea if you're uncertain of
what you want.

Joyce


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2002 8:05:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> The goals of unschooling are different than all the other methods you
> mention. The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be
> who she is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a
> side
> effect.

Damn, Joyce! Great post!

Another to be added to my "Book of Joyce". With permission, I'll publish one
day! <g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> he asks me what I want him to make

Hi,
This phrase leaped right out at me. Some schools squash the creativity
right out of children. Forget art, it's all about listening and following
directions.
I think a little guidance is ok if your child is honestly looking for
ideas, I have plenty of books that can act as starting points to different
activities; I just hate....."Now everyone pick up the black circle, add a dab
of glue, and place it right THERE!! Great work!"
Mary J
PS I realize I didn't answer your question, and I have no idea what your
child's school is like. I'm just commenting on something that drives me
nuts.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Yes!! Ditto, Joyce!
Sherry, It sounds like you are very similar to how I felt about 2 years ago, until I read everything out there on unschooling and all the writings in Sandra's web and tons of other writings in other webs.

Unschooling made so much sense to me, I had to just get through and dismiss all my schoolish thoughts, and think through what was best for my kids. I chose unschooling and havn't had a second thought since!!

Loooove It! As wheezy says, my 5dd, loves Dragon Tales.
Kelli
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:In a message dated 11/19/2002 8:05:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> The goals of unschooling are different than all the other methods you
> mention. The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be
> who she is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a
> side
> effect.

Damn, Joyce! Great post!

Another to be added to my "Book of Joyce". With permission, I'll publish one
day! <g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

Another keeper post from Joyce - the whole thing.
Tia
>
> The goals of unschooling are different than all the other methods you
> mention. The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child
be
> who she is and blossom into who she will become. Education happens as a
side
> effect.
>

Stephanie

Hey Sherry! Glad to see that you made it over here...I think that you
will enjoy it. I know that I have learned a lot from these wonderful
ladies here...and am still learning. I will warn you though...they
really help you look at things from a different point of view - not
always the most comfortable thing to do!

Stephanie E.

Lisa Hardiman

Wow, this is amazing. My 8 year old wants to make a computer game. We
talked about it, than I haven't followed through yet. Thanks. Lisa

-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 1:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] My 5 year old wants to make his
owncomputer game

on 11/18/02 11:32 AM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:

> Does anyone have anywhere to point us so that we can learn how to do
> this QUICK?

http://www.stagecast.com

Download both the evaluation version and the tutorial. The tutorial is
really good.

(There are versions for both Mac and that other computer.)

I'm forgetting the term for the way it writes software, but you move the
characters and the program writes the code. But you can also write your
own
code too so it's good for beginners and more advanced programmers.

Joyce


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]