Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

> That's true of their interpretation of VA laws. You'd think they'd at
>least get it right in their home state. I doubt it's ignorance, though. I
>think it's by design. Makes them--and their favored brand of
>homeschooling-- sound more necessary.
>
>-Shay

What is their preferred method of homeschooling, anyway?

Nanci K.

Lynda

School at home with a rigid curriculum that is from a Christian company.
Nice little jumpers and all sitting around the kitchen table at specific
times each day.

Lynda

----------
From: Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall <tn-k4of5@...>
>
> > That's true of their interpretation of VA laws. You'd think they'd at
> >least get it right in their home state. I doubt it's ignorance, though.
I
> >think it's by design. Makes them--and their favored brand of
> >homeschooling-- sound more necessary.
> >
> >-Shay
>
> What is their preferred method of homeschooling, anyway?
>
> Nanci K.
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> He and his crew have actually caused more problems for hsers, IMHO and many
> others in the states that he has messed with, than any he has helped.
> There are many other non-profits that can and do help without messing with
> what we as hsers actually want, freedom to make our own choices!
>
I agree with this. Of course, if they were to really help
homeschoolers to the point where there were no more legal problems,
HSLDA would be putting themselves out of business.

There was a good article in the July-August 1999 Home Education
Magazine called HSLDA'S Study: Embarrassing and Dangerou, by Larry
and Susan Kaseman. It's just one example of the problems they have created. It's
probably available for reading at the Home Ed Mag site (I've lost my
bookmarks.) The Hegeners have been refreshingly outspoken about the
problems with HSLDA.

Diane in KS

[email protected])

SOS and others,
Years ago I went through an ordeal when we had moved to a new state
that was suppose to be better for homeschooling. Someone turned me in
and I was thankful for HSLDA at the time, they really took the scare out
of it for me. I can't even imagine the energy I would have had to take
away from my kids just to defend myself if I wasn't a member. It scared
the hell out of social services that I had legal protection. I could
have never afforded a private attorney on my own and probably wouldn't
have tried at that time in my life. I don't think $100.00 a year family
membership is to much, especially since they have never raised their
membership fees. I think it is a good service, especially for those
that may reside in a difficult state. I've never felt like they used
scare tactics, they just inform you what you should do in case of an
emergency...just like any other insurance you may purchase. Why do you
buy other insurances? You hope it'll never happen to you, but you never
know. Well, I know...it happened to me and I don't wish it on anyone.
Robin

<<So not TRUE
I have been there!
I tried the I am not blah blah and you are human and etc.....The calm
cool collected SAHM and it just got me deeper into the hole...>>

$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

Robin,
Legal "insurance" is illegal in many states! HSLDA, if you can get them to
respond directly, will have to tell you they are NOT legal insurance. If
they say they ARE, in writing, I know many who would love to get ahold of
that and run them out of town!
Suz
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Leuenberger <Nest4Robin@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 10:14 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA


>From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
>
>SOS and others,
> Years ago I went through an ordeal when we had moved to a new state
>that was suppose to be better for homeschooling. Someone turned me in
>and I was thankful for HSLDA at the time, they really took the scare out
>of it for me. I can't even imagine the energy I would have had to take
>away from my kids just to defend myself if I wasn't a member. It scared
>the hell out of social services that I had legal protection. I could
>have never afforded a private attorney on my own and probably wouldn't
>have tried at that time in my life. I don't think $100.00 a year family
>membership is to much, especially since they have never raised their
>membership fees. I think it is a good service, especially for those
>that may reside in a difficult state. I've never felt like they used
>scare tactics, they just inform you what you should do in case of an
>emergency...just like any other insurance you may purchase. Why do you
>buy other insurances? You hope it'll never happen to you, but you never
>know. Well, I know...it happened to me and I don't wish it on anyone.
>Robin
>
><<So not TRUE
>I have been there!
>I tried the I am not blah blah and you are human and etc.....The calm
>cool collected SAHM and it just got me deeper into the hole...>>
>
>$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
>Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
>$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
>Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
>http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
>$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
>
>>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>

[email protected])

<<That's it, I know what annoys me the most about them -- they think we
are
all stupid! >>
Lynda,
I guess I'm stupid! I don't keep up with what they are doing and maybe
I should, but all I know is that they helped me when I needed them. I
suppose the climate for homeschooling has changed a lot since I first
started and maybe thats why most of you don't feel the need for it.
when I started homeschooling I was attacked from every front, even my
aunt (who is a retired school teacher now, but was teaching then)
threatened to turn me in if I didn't put my kids into public school. I
was the only homeschooler in my area then, now we have a support group
and many people HS around here. Michigan was one of the worst states to
homeschool in back then, now I understand it is one of the best. When I
went through my ordeal we had moved to Indiana which was suppose to be
one of the best to HS in, but I got turned in there for HSing. I'm back
in Michigan now and have been pretty free from hassels for a long time
now. I did receive a letter from the Intermediate school district last
spring, because a specialist was referring my daughter with Noonan
Syndrome for speech. However, at the time she was wearing an expander
for the beginning of her orthodontic work and I told them that that was
the problem with her speech, but they tried anyways. HSLDA helped me
with info. to write a letter to them so I could get Becca out of it, as
she did not want to go. All I know is they have been nothing but
helpful to me. If they have another agenda, you are the first to make
me aware of it.
Robin

Lynda

Farris is political and he "invented" H$LDA as a vehicle to get himself
elected to public office. It has worked. So he gets his little mits
involved as a political activist. He using homeschooling as his vehicle
and proclaims to one and all by ineundo that he represents ALL
homeschoolers, that all homeschoolers want things like Christian curriculum
and various and sundry other things like cover schools, Christian of course
with membership in H$LDA being a requirement.

He and his crew have actually caused more problems for hsers, IMHO and many
others in the states that he has messed with, than any he has helped.
There are many other non-profits that can and do help without messing with
what we as hsers actually want, freedom to make our own choices!

I've been hsing since the 60's and have never met with a problem. CA
doesn't have gestopo D of E, so we don't want him messing around here.

Lynda

----------
> From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
>
> I guess I'm stupid! I don't keep up with what they are doing and maybe
> I should, but all I know is that they helped me when I needed them. I
> suppose the climate for homeschooling has changed a lot since I first
> started and maybe thats why most of you don't feel the need for it.
> when I started homeschooling I was attacked from every front, even my
> aunt (who is a retired school teacher now, but was teaching then)
> threatened to turn me in if I didn't put my kids into public school. I
> was the only homeschooler in my area then, now we have a support group
> and many people HS around here. Michigan was one of the worst states to
> homeschool in back then, now I understand it is one of the best. When I
> went through my ordeal we had moved to Indiana which was suppose to be
> one of the best to HS in, but I got turned in there for HSing. I'm back
> in Michigan now and have been pretty free from hassels for a long time
> now. I did receive a letter from the Intermediate school district last
> spring, because a specialist was referring my daughter with Noonan
> Syndrome for speech. However, at the time she was wearing an expander
> for the beginning of her orthodontic work and I told them that that was
> the problem with her speech, but they tried anyways. HSLDA helped me
> with info. to write a letter to them so I could get Becca out of it, as
> she did not want to go. All I know is they have been nothing but
> helpful to me. If they have another agenda, you are the first to make
> me aware of it.
> Robin
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected])

<<School at home, with a Christian curriculum.>>

Gosh, I didn't know this. I'm not Christian and do not use a Christian
curriculum. I always used the best of a little of everything with my
kids over the years and only in the last 2 years started unschooling and
HSLDA never once told me I was doing it all wrong. I remember back a
couple of years ago they defended the religious rights of some group
that used peyote. The above may be their ideal, but I never felt they
disrepected peoples choices. I'm sorry I just don't know where you all
are coming from.
Robin

Lynda

Robin, they are NOT insurance! It is against the law for them to say or
even imply that they are insurance! AND, they only represent those that
they choose to. That is clearly spelled out in the membership info. They
may choose NOT to represent you!

Lynda

----------
From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
>
> SOS and others,
> Years ago I went through an ordeal when we had moved to a new state
> that was suppose to be better for homeschooling. Someone turned me in
> and I was thankful for HSLDA at the time, they really took the scare out
> of it for me. I can't even imagine the energy I would have had to take
> away from my kids just to defend myself if I wasn't a member. It scared
> the hell out of social services that I had legal protection. I could
> have never afforded a private attorney on my own and probably wouldn't
> have tried at that time in my life. I don't think $100.00 a year family
> membership is to much, especially since they have never raised their
> membership fees. I think it is a good service, especially for those
> that may reside in a difficult state. I've never felt like they used
> scare tactics, they just inform you what you should do in case of an
> emergency...just like any other insurance you may purchase. Why do you
> buy other insurances? You hope it'll never happen to you, but you never
> know. Well, I know...it happened to me and I don't wish it on anyone.
> Robin
>
> <<So not TRUE
> I have been there!
> I tried the I am not blah blah and you are human and etc.....The calm
> cool collected SAHM and it just got me deeper into the hole...>>
>
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
> http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Lynda

Robin, it is on their membership form. They specifically state that you
must use an approved curriculum and they only approve Christian curriculum.

Lynda

----------
From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
>
> <<School at home, with a Christian curriculum.>>
>
> Gosh, I didn't know this. I'm not Christian and do not use a Christian
> curriculum. I always used the best of a little of everything with my
> kids over the years and only in the last 2 years started unschooling and
> HSLDA never once told me I was doing it all wrong. I remember back a
> couple of years ago they defended the religious rights of some group
> that used peyote. The above may be their ideal, but I never felt they
> disrepected peoples choices. I'm sorry I just don't know where you all
> are coming from.
> Robin
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected])

Lynda,
No one has ever asked me what curriculum I use from there, which I
haven't used a set curriculum in years, especially a Christian one.
Plus, like I stated before I am not a Christian, nor have they ever
required or asked me to join a cover school of Christian orientation. I
get a re-newal form every year and I've never seen it state what you
claim here. Maybe their new membership forms do now, but I am not aware
of it and they've helped me when I've needed it with no problems at all.
In regards to whether its insurance or not, who cares! I've
received help through my membership with them, so for me its a play on
terms. I'm glad you've never encountered problems, but there are some
of us that have. Like I said before, maybe I should keep abreast of
what they are doing more closely, as I did not realize that they have
actually hurt home schooling in some states and for that I am sorry.
I'd like to know what you all think of Clonlara then? I understand
they offer legal assistance to those enrolled in their program. I see
this program is highly recommended in The Teenage Liberation Handbook,
so whats the difference if they offer legal assistance for their
membership vs. HSLDA?
Robin

<<Robin, it is on their membership form. They specifically state that
you must use an approved curriculum and they only approve Christian
curriculum.>>

$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$

Lynda

The problem is that quite frequently H$LDA's "advise" is contrary to the
public good and to homeschoolers in particular. The problem is that H$LDA
is lobbying organization that fronts as a help to homeschoolers. The
problems are about a mile high.

If they want to be a Christian lobbying organization, then I suggest that
is how they should portray themselves. And, I have to say that after what
they did to Cheryl (well, what Farris was a party to), and their
friendships with folks like Gothard and Ezzo, well, need I say more?

Lynda

----------
From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
>
> Lynda,
> No one has ever asked me what curriculum I use from there, which I
> haven't used a set curriculum in years, especially a Christian one.
> Plus, like I stated before I am not a Christian, nor have they ever
> required or asked me to join a cover school of Christian orientation. I
> get a re-newal form every year and I've never seen it state what you
> claim here. Maybe their new membership forms do now, but I am not aware
> of it and they've helped me when I've needed it with no problems at all.
> In regards to whether its insurance or not, who cares! I've
> received help through my membership with them, so for me its a play on
> terms. I'm glad you've never encountered problems, but there are some
> of us that have. Like I said before, maybe I should keep abreast of
> what they are doing more closely, as I did not realize that they have
> actually hurt home schooling in some states and for that I am sorry.
> I'd like to know what you all think of Clonlara then? I understand
> they offer legal assistance to those enrolled in their program. I see
> this program is highly recommended in The Teenage Liberation Handbook,
> so whats the difference if they offer legal assistance for their
> membership vs. HSLDA?
> Robin
>
> <<Robin, it is on their membership form. They specifically state that
> you must use an approved curriculum and they only approve Christian
> curriculum.>>
>
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
> http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected]

I am no fan of HSLDA and was very interested to read Linda's comment about
the membership form. So I went to the HSLDA site (www.hslda.org) and, lo and
behold, discovered a downloadable verison of the membership application.
Thought others might be interested in seeing the exact wording:-

>> By signing this application, we agree:

1. To exercise diligence in teaching our children in a responsible way.

2. To use an organized curriculum and a clearly recognizable program of
education to instruct our children. <<

(There are four further items, some relating to legal aspects.)


I didn't know that they were not even allowed to sell legal insurance. Why
not? Where can I read about this, please?

Mattie

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 326
>Date: Fri, Dec 3, 1999, 3:03 AM
>

>I'd like to know what you all think of Clonlara then? I understand
>they offer legal assistance to those enrolled in their program. I see
>this program is highly recommended in The Teenage Liberation Handbook,
>so whats the difference if they offer legal assistance for their
>membership vs. HSLDA?

The difference is that Clonlara doesn't use scare tactics to get people to
join, doesn't involve itself in non-homeschooling political agendas with
members money and unknown to them, doesn't come into states without the
knowledge or request of the major state groups and start creating state laws
where none were needed or wanted, doesn't further create such state laws to
benefit themselves (i.e, you must belong to one of thse homeschool groups in
order to homeschool legally, and oh yes, to belong to one of those groups
you must first be a member of H$LDA).

It's the difference between a assistance and an ax.

Pam Hartley, not opionated on this suject. ;)

Lynda

To sell insurance you must be so licensed with the state in question which
means that H$LDA would have to be licensed and meet their criteria in all
50 states. The are simply a non-profit, who by the way are pushing the
envelope on what they do as a non-prof.

Lynda

----------

> From: MrsMattie@...
>
> I am no fan of HSLDA and was very interested to read Linda's comment
about
> the membership form. So I went to the HSLDA site (www.hslda.org) and, lo
and
> behold, discovered a downloadable verison of the membership application.

> Thought others might be interested in seeing the exact wording:-
>
> >> By signing this application, we agree:
>
> 1. To exercise diligence in teaching our children in a responsible way.
>
> 2. To use an organized curriculum and a clearly recognizable program of
> education to instruct our children. <<
>
> (There are four further items, some relating to legal aspects.)
>
>
> I didn't know that they were not even allowed to sell legal insurance.
Why
> not? Where can I read about this, please?
>
> Mattie
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Lynda

Speaking of states that H$LDA has messed with, this is also being talked
about on another list. NY's laws were brought about by/formed by H$LDA
and now H$LDA is calling them the most restrictive. Whatta laugh!

Lynda

[email protected])

Lynda,
<<And, I have to say that after what they did to Cheryl (well, what
Farris was a party to), and their friendships with folks like Gothard
and Ezzo, well, need I say more?>>
Sorry, I'm lost here. What did they do? I would like to know.
Robin

$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$

[email protected]

Lynda

<< To sell insurance you must be so licensed with the state in question which
means that H$LDA would have to be licensed and meet their criteria in all
50 states. The are simply a non-profit, who by the way are pushing the
envelope on what they do as a non-prof. >>

Thank you very much, Lynda, for answering my question about HSLDA's
ineligibility for selling insurance.

Best wishes
Mattie

Lynda

Cheryl had a newsletter. She was involved in a messy divorce and her
church and some of the Farris (he gave legal advise to them on how to go
about this) group decided to publicly humiliate her and take her magazine
away from her (sole support for her children). She took them to court and
won the case in federal court, anti-trust laws which are the hardest to
prove. There is much more info on the HEM boards for anyone who wants all
the details.

Now, as to Gothard and Ezzo, well, yuck, yuck, yuck <g> Ezzo is the nut
that encourages parents to carry a rod in their diaper bag to discipline
babies, babies should be trained/forced by 6 weeks to sleep all night, and
other charming things. Gothard has his particular brand of discipline and
"training" as part of the school system in Florida now compliments of a
peachy relationship with Jeb.

Lynda
----------

> From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
>
> Lynda,
> <<And, I have to say that after what they did to Cheryl (well, what
> Farris was a party to), and their friendships with folks like Gothard
> and Ezzo, well, need I say more?>>
> Sorry, I'm lost here. What did they do? I would like to know.
> Robin
>
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
> http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Lisa Bugg

This link will take you to the News section of Home Education Magazine's
site. Scroll to the bottom of the page to find links to 4 articles on the
Seelhoff vs Welch case.
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/whts_nw.html

Also, you may want to read information from Cheryl directly. Her site is
www.gentlespirit.com. There is a folder on the discussion boards for this
issue.

The original court documents have been placed on the website
http://members.aol.com/Hsingcase/index.html by an independent homeschooler.
She felt the documents would speak for themselves. The testimonies of Mary
Pride, Sue Welch and Michael Boutot certainly spoke to me. :(

Bill Gothard is another *side* to the homeschooling community that most
people are not aware of. He is the leader of a very rigid homeschooling
program. You have to invest a bit of time to read enough to truly
understand what he is after, but to me it's time well spent. I'm not
finding my bookmarks for some reason. I'll need to go retrieve them from
wherever I put them..... they are probably with my car keys. <weak grin>

Fully understanding the motives of Bill Gothard, Mike Farris, Doug Wilson
and many others is something I consider a must for unschooling families.
Unschooling freedom can be challenged on many fronts, even from within.

Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda <lurine@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA


> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> Cheryl had a newsletter. She was involved in a messy divorce and her
> church and some of the Farris (he gave legal advise to them on how to go
> about this) group decided to publicly humiliate her and take her magazine
> away from her (sole support for her children). She took them to court and
> won the case in federal court, anti-trust laws which are the hardest to
> prove. There is much more info on the HEM boards for anyone who wants all
> the details.
>
> Now, as to Gothard and Ezzo, well, yuck, yuck, yuck <g> Ezzo is the nut
> that encourages parents to carry a rod in their diaper bag to discipline
> babies, babies should be trained/forced by 6 weeks to sleep all night, and
> other charming things. Gothard has his particular brand of discipline and
> "training" as part of the school system in Florida now compliments of a
> peachy relationship with Jeb.
>
> Lynda
> ----------
>
> > From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
> >
> > Lynda,
> > <<And, I have to say that after what they did to Cheryl (well, what
> > Farris was a party to), and their friendships with folks like Gothard
> > and Ezzo, well, need I say more?>>
> > Sorry, I'm lost here. What did they do? I would like to know.
> > Robin
> >
> > $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> > Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
> > $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> > Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
> > http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
> > $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Robin Leuenberger

Lynda,
Thanks for filling me in. Good for Cheryl! What is the URL for
the HEM board? I'd like to read more about it.
Why in the %#@@ would someone want to spank a 6 week old baby with
a rod for? That's terrible! Obviously, he's not for the family bed
either?! I don't understand people like that! He openly endorses child
abuse and gets away with it? I never heard of this Ezzo before. I've
heard of Gothard, but I don't know much about him. I take it they are
some sort of Christian leaders. How sad, usually these sort of people
misunderstand the Hebrew Bible / Torah and come up with their bizarre
doctrines.
Thanks again,
Robin

<<Cheryl had a newsletter. She was involved in a messy divorce and her
church and some of the Farris (he gave legal advise to them on how to go
about this) group decided to publicly humiliate her and take her
magazine away from her (sole support for her children). She took them to
court and won the case in federal court, anti-trust laws which are the
hardest to prove. There is much more info on the HEM boards for anyone
who wants all the details.
Now, as to Gothard and Ezzo, well, yuck, yuck, yuck <g> Ezzo is the nut
that encourages parents to carry a rod in their diaper bag to discipline
babies, babies should be trained/forced by 6 weeks to sleep all night,
and other charming things. Gothard has his particular brand of
discipline and "training" as part of the school system in Florida now
compliments of a peachy relationship with Jeb.
Lynda >>

$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$

Joel Hawthorne

I had a hard time when I first heard about Ezzo in not thinking it was some
black humoured hoax parodying regressive childrearing practices and was
horrified to find out it was real. There are groups of people "in recovery"
from Ezzo. There is actually quite a lot of resistance to their twisted
approach from Christians and not just the secular types. It is abusive to
be sure.

However it is one of those evils with which I must live and refuse to give
in to the urge to legislate, ban, and otherwise require people not to be
stupid.

There are lots of people who do what I think are stupid things to their
children. There are of course people who think I am doing stupid things
with my children.

So as intensely as I dislike and as heartily revolted by Ezzo as I am ....
dare I say it ..... until there are verifiable bruises on the kids what can
I do? The freedom to do stupid things is fundamental.

Robin Leuenberger wrote:

> From: Nest4Robin@... (Robin Leuenberger)
>
> Lynda,
> Thanks for filling me in. Good for Cheryl! What is the URL for
> the HEM board? I'd like to read more about it.
> Why in the %#@@ would someone want to spank a 6 week old baby with
> a rod for? That's terrible!

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/7/99 9:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LisaBugg@... writes:

<< Also, you may want to read information from Cheryl directly. Her site is
www.gentlespirit.com. There is a folder on the discussion boards for this
issue. >>

Can someone tell me how to get to her website?Without a pass word which I
don't have I can't get in. I've heard about this magazine and would be
interested in suscribing.

Laura

Lisa Bugg

>
> << Also, you may want to read information from Cheryl directly. Her site
is
> www.gentlespirit.com. There is a folder on the discussion boards for this
> issue. >>
>
> Can someone tell me how to get to her website?Without a pass word which I
> don't have I can't get in. I've heard about this magazine and would be
> interested in suscribing.
>
You shouldn't need a password to enter into the site. When you go to the
above address a large picture loads, underneath that picture are two
choices, Bells and Whistles and No Bells and Whistles, choose one of those
and enter. You do need a password to post on the message boards, but
registration for the boards is simple, and the link is there on the boards.
If you need more help just email me.

Lisa

[email protected])

Lisa,
Thanks so much for sharing the URL to the HEM site. I read all the
articles there on Cheryl's situation. I had never heard about this
before. It really bothers me that people do this sort of thing to
others in the name of their god. Well, I can certainly understand now
why you all dis-like HSLDA so much. I definately won't plan on
re-newing my membership next year. What a shame! I really thought they
were a good org. that helped people. I can see that is not true now.
Robin

$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
$~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$

Lisa Bugg

Robin,
One of the reasons this can be such a difficult topic is that there are
people out there that feel they have been helped by HSLDA. Say a social
worker comes to the door, their literature would tell you to call them and
let them handle it. You would have gotten your money's worth then, right? I
don't think so and here's why. Our homeschooling freedoms can only be
protected when we, as individuals, feel we are competent and capable people.
By dealing with situations ourselves we do two things, we strengthen
ourselves and we teach our children to depend on themselves. Now, yes,
sometimes the problems are too large and complex to handle on our own and we
then turn to folks who can help. But the focus of that help should be
centered on what is good for you. HSLDA states up front that you must agree
to whatever decision they make, or lose their services. I know of no other
law firm that stipulates that. I once spent 18 months litigating a court
battle and never once did my lawyer say, if we don't do it this way, I'm out
of here.

It seems backwards to say the fact HSLDA took care of a problem for someone
was really no help at all, but that's how I see this. Their focus should be
on teaching and information, so that others may handle their own problems.
Unfortunately, if you send off for their financial statements for the last
few years, you will see they put -$0- in the column for court cases.

Beyond this the situation really becomes complicated when you find out what
they do with that $5 million a year in income. :(

Lisa


so much for sharing the URL to the HEM site. I read all the
> articles there on Cheryl's situation. I had never heard about this
> before. It really bothers me that people do this sort of thing to
> others in the name of their god. Well, I can certainly understand now
> why you all dis-like HSLDA so much. I definately won't plan on
> re-newing my membership next year. What a shame! I really thought they
> were a good org. that helped people. I can see that is not true now.
> Robin
>
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Robin's Nest http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/index.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
> Suggested Prayers for B'nai Noah:
> http://www.myfreeoffice.com/leuenberger/prayers.html
> $~~~~~~~~~~<O~~****~~O>~~~~~~~~~~$
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

zenmomma *

>>Here in the US states HSLDA fights hard to preserve our right to
>>homeschool.>>

It is my understanding that HSLDA will not represent unschoolers. So they
are not fighting for my rights at all then. They seem more to be fighting
for the right to school-at-home according to certain set of guidelines.
These guidelines, for me, are just as restrictive as a regular school
environment.

>>A perfect example is prayer taken out of school, no one stood up and wham,
>>it was accomplished and the same with the Pledge Allegiance, thank God
>>though we have people fighting for this one.>>

But what is this a perfect example of really? I personally don't think
prayer belongs in a public school and you probably won't see my family
praying to your god at home either. I staunchly defend your right, though,
to worship as you see fit. This is not really about our different religious
beliefs. It is about one group claiming to represent all homeschoolers. And
from my perspective, I haven't seen the goals and agenda of the HSLDA
representing any of my beliefs.

Life is good.
~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

inmdcrew

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@h...> wrote:
>
>
> >>Here in the US states HSLDA fights hard to preserve our right to
> >>homeschool.>>
>
> It is my understanding that HSLDA will not represent unschoolers.
So they
> are not fighting for my rights at all then. They seem more to be
fighting
> for the right to school-at-home according to certain set of
guidelines.
> These guidelines, for me, are just as restrictive as a regular
school
> environment.
>
> >>A perfect example is prayer taken out of school, no one stood up
and wham,
> >>it was accomplished and the same with the Pledge Allegiance,
thank God
> >>though we have people fighting for this one.>>
>
> But what is this a perfect example of really? I personally don't
think
> prayer belongs in a public school and you probably won't see my
family
> praying to your god at home either. I staunchly defend your right,
though,
> to worship as you see fit. This is not really about our different
religious
> beliefs. It is about one group claiming to represent all
homeschoolers. And
> from my perspective, I haven't seen the goals and agenda of the
HSLDA
> representing any of my beliefs.
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
> I may be mistaken, but I have heard that HSLDA doesn't even defend
everyone's cases. Seems to me when this happens those who have
steadly paid their membership dues can then run the risk of not even
being represented. That's an unfair presentation of their facts as
the literature seems to point to "everyone" being defended.
Tina
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/2002 3:01:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> Though the HSLDA folks have been heard to claim they aren't in with the
> Reconstructionists, they're awfully chummy with them. (The
> Reconstructionists want to "return" America to the theocracy the Founding
> Fathers supposedly intended it to be. (I'm not quite sure how they explain
> Jefferson!))

Joyce,

Yes, they are in ways tied with Reconstructionists, and Reconstructionists
would be something to be concerned about if they weren't so feeble (both
politically and theologically).

But the founding fathers intending the US to be a theocracy? The country was
Christian already, where was the need for such a thing? Nevertheless, those
men, with the exception of a few, were more than aware that orthodox
Christianity was teetering around the world (the French Revolution?), and
they were also aware that to stay consistent with their ideas of liberty,
they would have to establish a system that let the Faith crash if that's what
was to be.

Bob


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 8/14/02 12:52 PM, rsale515@... at rsale515@... wrote:

> Yes, they are in ways tied with Reconstructionists, and Reconstructionists
> would be something to be concerned about if they weren't so feeble (both
> politically and theologically).

Speaking of conspiracies ;-) I wouldn't be too sure about the feebleness of
the political part.

I believe I remember reading somewhere that fundamentalist denominations
were the fastest growing in the US. This isn't a new growth but I think
especially after 9/11 (and the situations in the world that led up to it)
people are looking for philosophies that provide absolute answers,
guarantees and reassurances about the future -- something to calm their
fears. Fundamentalism speaks to that. (I think those fears, though not
entirely responsible, also contribute to the push for standardized testing
and back to basics.)

> But the founding fathers intending the US to be a theocracy? The country was
> Christian already, where was the need for such a thing? Nevertheless, those
> men, with the exception of a few, were more than aware that orthodox
> Christianity was teetering around the world (the French Revolution?), and
> they were also aware that to stay consistent with their ideas of liberty,
> they would have to establish a system that let the Faith crash if that's what
> was to be.

According to the fundamentalists. There's lots and lots of stuff on the
internet. Probably just typing in Christian "Founding Fathers" would yield
loads of stuff.

There's a book series that's very popular among Christian fundamentalist
homeschoolers. (Maybe specifically those of the Calvinist persuasion but I'm
not sure of the fine distinctions between the various fundamentalist camps.)
If you go to just about any fundamentalist Christian homeschooling book
provider, these will be available. (Sonlight.com seems to be the rare
exception.) There are two versions: one for adults (and teens?) and one for
middle schoolers. There are also workbooks available for the children's
version.

(I'm becoming more aware of how valuable that time spent debating and
reading Christian fundamentalist homeschoolers in AOL's old homeschooling
forum was. It was a rare opportunity to gain insight into their way of
thinking. Anyone can obviously join a message board or list for Christian
fundamentalists to hear what they're saying, but this was right there in our
laps without us having to go look for it and they were willing to debate
(very heatedly often!) us non-fundamentalist types. ;-)

The Light and the Glory by Peter Marshall
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800750543/qid=1029411116/sr=2-2/ref=
sr_2_2/002-7626140-0354421

Here's a review at Amazon (written by a non-fundamentalist Christian):

> Peter Marshall and David Manuel have done their homework. There is no doubt
> about it. They have proposed a thesis - that America was discovered, explored,
> and founded as an explicitly Christian nation, and that God's hand can be
> evident in it's early history - and have defended it well. They have gone back
> to some interesting primary sources, which do, in fact, shed light on our
> nation's early history. As such, the book is a valuable read.
>
> THIS BEING SAID, for the author's thesis to stand, one must comprehend and
> assume a totally Calvinistic understanding of Christian theology, AND assume
> that our Founding Fathers were working under similar paradigms. Such an
> historical point of view is difficult to defend. Some of our nation's Founders
> did indeed come from such a theological viewpoint. Many, however, did not.
> (And our two significant founding documents were penned by a Deist and an
> Episcopalian!) Such a point of view is also difficult, not only to those who
> do not profess the Christian faith, but for the enormous majority of those who
> do! (Catholics, Orthodox, many Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, some
> Baptists, etc.) If a Calvinistic viewpoint is removed from the book, the
> entire premise collapses.
>
> Please don't get me wrong -- Marshall and Manuel have assembled a great deal
> of research, and have presented it in an interesting and entertaining fashion.
> The "facts" are there. It's just that I (speaking as both a committed
> Christian and a historian) can't buy their "interpretation" of those facts.

The Light and the Glory for Children by Peter Marshall
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800754484/qid=1029411116/sr=2-1/ref=
sr_2_1/002-7626140-0354421

This is from the publisher:
> The Light and the Glory for Children makes clear to young readers ages nine to
> twelve how God worked through the founders of America to establish this
> nation. The years 1492 to 1789 begin the exciting story of Gods plan for
> America. Study activities pose questions about the nations future.

From Sea to Shining Sea
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800753089/ref=pd_sim_books/002-76261
40-0354421

From Sea to Shining Sea for Children
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800754840/ref=pd_sim_books/002-76261
40-0354421

Focus:
> This book can be a marvelous gift for a youngster. It can also lay the
> groundwork for that child to be able to combat the attacks of others who
> disregard the Christian heritage of these United States of America

Description:
> From Sea to Shining Sea for Children tells Americas story during its first
> fifty years. These were the days of Benjamin Franklin and Daniel Boone,
> Francis Asbury and Charles Finney, Andrew Jackson and Sam Houston. During
> these years Conestoga wagons and circuit riders became famous, Indian wars and
> slavery were major concerns, and the Louisiana Purchase and the Oregon Trail
> expanded Americas boundaries from sea to shining sea. But God was also at work
> in the young nation, giving its settlers exciting opportunities to shape its
> history and to be His people. This book, written primarily for young people in
> the middle grades, includes study questions for each chapter and helps its
> readers see Gods part in American history.

Joyce