Alan & Brenda Leonard

> How far would you go in encouraging a kid to stick with something
> they've started? My 10yo unschooler has been bugging us for the past
> year to give him viola lessons (he has a passion for classical
> music).

First, Beth, I think that you're talking about one issue and this involves
another. Does your son want to *quit* viola and you want him to keep going,
or are you having problems getting him to practice regularly? In my mind,
those are seperate issues.

> He has two one-hour lessons a
> week and is expected to practice at home at least 5 days/week. I
> don't *make* him practice that often;

2 hours is a lotta lesson time. 5 practice sessions a week on top of that
is absurd, IMHO. That's basically expecting the "only practice on the days
you eat" thing. I don't feel like practicing every day, why would a kid?

> He has not asked to quit (yet), but practice sessions are becoming a
> bit of a battlefield. .....I'm having trouble convincing him that the rewards
> are worth the frustration!

10 year olds truly vary in their abilities to accomplish something without
parental direction. Some actually can, some need help getting going but can
take it from there, and many truly need someone there the whole time.
Remember that when you practice, you're tackling something "new" at each
moment, because you're supposedly learning new patterns, solving problems,
improving sound or whatever. It's not like legos, for example, where you
helped your child understand the directions the very first time they built
something, and now they can take it from there.

I try to get parents to attend lessons, when possible, and practice
regularly with their children, when possible, until the *child* asks that
they go it alone.

Here's my drill for parents: If you're encouraging your child to practice,
agree on the time, or that right now is a good time. Take out the
instrument together. You could hold the viola while he tightens the bow.
Help him set up the music, put on the shoulder rest, etc. Ask what he's
going to play through first. (Encourage him to start with something he
knows well, to warm up.) Ask (or remind, if you attended the lesson) what
his teacher was asking him to work on this week -- improving his bow grip,
holding his viola up, whatever. Help him do that, on the piece he knows
well, if needed. (Parents can hold the instrument in the right place so the
child gets a feel for it, help periodically push a wrist out that's bending
in, etc.).

Then look at whatever piece(s) he's supposed to be working on right now.
Have him play a bit of it. One line or so. Ask if he's happy with it.
(It's OK if he's happy with it!) Are there problems that need fixing? Can
he go back and do it again to improve just that one thing he didn't like?

Children don't innately understand that with music, you have to figure out
every little bit, and it may take 5 tries to get it right. You will have to
help with that. I find that kids get angry because it's not going well, and
I spend a lot of time trying to teach them to not get instantly mad. I
teach that first, you identify the problem. (I have them say it out loud.)
Then decide what will solve it, and then try again. For example, it's all
out of tune. Sounds awful. I need to move my whole hand up a little bit.
Now try it. Or, the sound is squeaky. I think it's my bow; it must be too
close to the bridge. Let me put it farther away and try again. (If you're
regularly coming across problems he can't solve, it's time for a list for
the teacher.)

Yes, that sounds stilted. But it's a good habit to get into, and it works.
It teaches the child to solve, rather than react to the problem. Oh, and
one more thing. When it's good, have them stop and say say so! I see kids
all the time who never tell themselves anything about their playing unless
it's bad. Well, duh, of course they don't want to practice!

Other ideas: If his teacher asked him to practice some little part several
times, sweeten the deal a bit. Break out the M&M's, and put some on the
stand. Eat one each time you do it right. Applaud accomplishments -- it
may look like no big deal to you to fix that bent wrist, but trust me, it's
a tough thing to do. Tell your husband over dinner how well today's
practice went. Call the grandparents and play the piece over the phone.

If your son tells you to go away, you're being a pest, respect that, but do
something in the next room, instead. Be prepared to be interrupted to help.
Don't be a pest, but do be availalbe.

Finally, I tell my students' parents that when their children ask to quit,
they need to talk about what the problem is. Do they need help practicing?
Do they not like their teacher? Is the instrument in need of some repair so
it's easier to play (check with the teacher on this one)? Is their lesson
or practice time at a bad time for them (during their favorite TV show?)?
Are they being teased for playing something "stupid"? Or do they just not
like the sound of the instrument anymore, and would rather do something
else? It's ok to quit if you don't like it! I quit things I hate. I've
also quit music before, and I've been playing for 25 years. Sometime you
need a bit of time off to miss it.

Anyhow, this is a big issue to me, did you get that impression!? <g>

with apologies for the length,
brenda

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/14/02 5:50:30 AM, abtleo@... writes:

<< If your son tells you to go away, you're being a pest, respect that, but do
something in the next room, instead. Be prepared to be interrupted to help.
Don't be a pest, but do be availalbe. >>

Last night Holly was in the next room and I frustrated her accidently.

She was doing some two-note thing, a Puppet Theatre bit of some sort, and
although the rhythm changed the two notes didn't.

I said "The second note is too low."

That was NOT helpful to her, since it turned out "the second note" was the
open string. But I was in the other room, and forgetting, being more used to
recorders and vocal, that one of those notes wasn't changeable. So the thing
that was important for her to know was the FIRST note was sharp.

Too frustrating and confusing, so I just said "Sorry, never mind."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/14/02 5:50:30 AM, abtleo@... writes:

<< Anyhow, this is a big issue to me, did you get that impression!? <g>

with apologies for the length, >>

I liked it. I like real people's real stories a lot!

Here's my musical outline:

Started piano at five, played a year, quit.
Started clarinet at ten, fifth grade, played for five years.
Started piano again at 11, quit; started again at 12, took lessons for three
years.
Sold the clarinet to buy a guitar at 15. Folk-style finger-picking,
accompaniment to singing.
Got a recorder at 17. Learned to play it without effort, got to the point of
performing Telemann in public, left the city for the small town, taught
others (easier stuff).

Vocal, separate from the above
sang for fun, mom sang for fun (country and western, with guitar)
harmonized at nine, out in the yard
loved singing lessons in school, when we had them
Sang at church from nine. Soloed at 11?
Choir in Jr. High and High school
made All-State Mixed choir when I was a junior, but left high school that
year to go to college.

Have sung ballads, madrigals, medieval carols, Sacred Harp (18th century
shape-note hymns) over the years, and lately.

I have never been GREAT or remarkable at any one instrument. I've never been
considered "accomplished" at any one. BUT... I have friends who have been.
I've known people who studied an instrument intensely for ten years, but as
soon as they left school they never touched it again. Lots of people.

I know a couple who were great at piano very early on, and both still play.
One runs the music department at her church. The other did jazz bands in
bars. (I've lately lost contact.)

More of my friends who still do music never took any music in school. That's
interesting, huh? Those who play guitar learned it on their own (as I did,
too) and many of them still play. One drummer who was in band with me is
still playing drums in bands sometimes.

Every city choir and orchestra, every pipe and drum band, every historical
brass band (Albuquerque has a civil war band!) has some people who knew the
instrument since childhood and others who learned as adults.

I think music is something one has or doesn't have. I think a good musical
aptitude can be destroyed or discouraged, but not created.

Sandra

wanderingmommy

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Alan & Brenda Leonard <abtleo@e...>
wrote:
> > Beth said:
How far would you go in encouraging a kid to stick with something
> > they've started? My 10yo unschooler has been bugging us for the
past
> > year to give him viola lessons (he has a passion for classical
> > music).
>
> Brenda said:
First, Beth, I think that you're talking about one issue and this
involves
> another. Does your son want to *quit* viola and you want him to
keep going,
> or are you having problems getting him to practice regularly? In
my mind,
> those are seperate issues.

Sorry, I should have clarified this. I'm afraid that he'll get so
frustrated that he WANTS to quit. I'm looking for ways to ease the
frustration level so it doesn't come to this (hopefully).

> > Beth said:
He has two one-hour lessons a
> > week and is expected to practice at home at least 5 days/week. I
> > don't *make* him practice that often;
>
> Brenda said:
2 hours is a lotta lesson time. 5 practice sessions a week on top of
that
> is absurd, IMHO. That's basically expecting the "only practice on
the days
> you eat" thing. I don't feel like practicing every day, why would
a kid?

I absolutely agree!! The instructors send home a practice sheet every
week. The kids are supposed to check off each practice item and then
the parents are supposed to sign off. SO SCHOOLISH! I hate it, which
is why I don't expect him to practice everyday and he only practices
what he feels he needs to work on. We fudge it and sign off on the
accursed thing anyway. Btw, none of his practice sessions ever last
for more than 10-15 minutes.

> > Beth said:
He has not asked to quit (yet), but practice sessions are becoming a
> > bit of a battlefield. .....I'm having trouble convincing him that
the rewards
> > are worth the frustration!
>
> Brenda said:
10 year olds truly vary in their abilities to accomplish something
without
> parental direction. Some actually can, some need help getting
going but can
> take it from there, and many truly need someone there the whole
time.
> Remember that when you practice, you're tackling something "new" at
each
> moment, because you're supposedly learning new patterns, solving
problems,
> improving sound or whatever. It's not like legos, for example,
where you
> helped your child understand the directions the very first time
they built
> something, and now they can take it from there.
>
> I try to get parents to attend lessons, when possible, and practice
> regularly with their children, when possible, until the *child*
asks that
> they go it alone.
>
> Here's my drill for parents: If you're encouraging your child to
practice,
> agree on the time, or that right now is a good time. Take out the
> instrument together. You could hold the viola while he tightens
the bow.
> Help him set up the music, put on the shoulder rest, etc. Ask what
he's
> going to play through first. (Encourage him to start with
something he
> knows well, to warm up.) Ask (or remind, if you attended the
lesson) what
> his teacher was asking him to work on this week -- improving his
bow grip,
> holding his viola up, whatever. Help him do that, on the piece he
knows
> well, if needed. (Parents can hold the instrument in the right
place so the
> child gets a feel for it, help periodically push a wrist out that's
bending
> in, etc.).
>
> Then look at whatever piece(s) he's supposed to be working on right
now.
> Have him play a bit of it. One line or so. Ask if he's happy with
it.
> (It's OK if he's happy with it!) Are there problems that need
fixing? Can
> he go back and do it again to improve just that one thing he didn't
like?
>
> Children don't innately understand that with music, you have to
figure out
> every little bit, and it may take 5 tries to get it right. You
will have to
> help with that. I find that kids get angry because it's not going
well, and
> I spend a lot of time trying to teach them to not get instantly
mad. I
> teach that first, you identify the problem. (I have them say it
out loud.)
> Then decide what will solve it, and then try again. For example,
it's all
> out of tune. Sounds awful. I need to move my whole hand up a
little bit.
> Now try it. Or, the sound is squeaky. I think it's my bow; it
must be too
> close to the bridge. Let me put it farther away and try again.
(If you're
> regularly coming across problems he can't solve, it's time for a
list for
> the teacher.)
>
> Yes, that sounds stilted. But it's a good habit to get into, and
it works.
> It teaches the child to solve, rather than react to the problem.
Oh, and
> one more thing. When it's good, have them stop and say say so! I
see kids
> all the time who never tell themselves anything about their playing
unless
> it's bad. Well, duh, of course they don't want to practice!
>
> Other ideas: If his teacher asked him to practice some little part
several
> times, sweeten the deal a bit. Break out the M&M's, and put some
on the
> stand. Eat one each time you do it right. Applaud
accomplishments -- it
> may look like no big deal to you to fix that bent wrist, but trust
me, it's
> a tough thing to do. Tell your husband over dinner how well today's
> practice went. Call the grandparents and play the piece over the
phone.
>
> If your son tells you to go away, you're being a pest, respect
that, but do
> something in the next room, instead. Be prepared to be interrupted
to help.
> Don't be a pest, but do be availalbe.
>

I could have written the above myself. He WANTS and needs my help at
this point. I am actively involved in his practices doing just what
you said above (I am also musically gifted) and I attend every single
lesson with him so that I know what the instructors expect him to
work on (and what we can leave aside). Unfortunately since these are
group lessons (there are about 30 kids at each lesson with 3
instructors that take turns teaching while the other 2 roam around
the class) we're running into the typical "teach to the middle"
mentality that leaves out the slower/faster kids. They're doing a
good job of teaching the basics but sometimes I really squirm when
they do truly pointless exercises and talk to the kids like they're
all slightly brain damaged. :/

> Finally, I tell my students' parents that when their children ask
to quit,
> they need to talk about what the problem is. Do they need help
practicing?
> Do they not like their teacher? Is the instrument in need of some
repair so
> it's easier to play (check with the teacher on this one)? Is their
lesson
> or practice time at a bad time for them (during their favorite TV
show?)?
> Are they being teased for playing something "stupid"? Or do they
just not
> like the sound of the instrument anymore, and would rather do
something
> else? It's ok to quit if you don't like it! I quit things I
hate. I've
> also quit music before, and I've been playing for 25 years.
Sometime you
> need a bit of time off to miss it.
>
> Anyhow, this is a big issue to me, did you get that impression!? <g>
>
> with apologies for the length,
> brenda

Brenda, obviously this is a big issue for me too! Our house has
always been full of music. I sing, play guitar, a little piano, and
now I'm learning the viola right along with ds! My dh also plays
guitar. Our son has always been musically inclined and he says he
enjoys his viola lessons. However, he seems to have inherited his
mom's perfectionist tendencies and becomes easily frustrated. Music
lessons are not the only area in which we deal with this issue. It's
one of the reasons we unschool.

We've asked (and so far he's agreed) that he stick with these lessons
until the end of the semester, at which time he can keep going, take
a break or outright quit. We keep reminding him of how thoroughly
frustrated he gets when he first plays a new video game. He
eventually figures out what needs to be done in order to succeed
(while playing for hours on end; he actually learned to read by
playing them) and THEN he loves them. But until then he rants and
raves and throws major FITS! I've pointed out to him that sometimes
learning any new skill (like playing the viola) can be just as
frustrating AND just as rewarding as mastering his games. In fact if
he practiced the viola as often as he plays video games he'd be a
virtuoso in no time! <lol>

You know, I think I'll just lay off for awhile and let him know that
it's up to him to come and get me when he wants to practice. Who
knows, maybe if he goes to a lesson or two unprepared (he can't stand
feeling confused) he just might decide to practice after all.

Beth
ps(Now he wants to play the xylophone(!) so we're looking into that
too.)

Stephanie Elms

> I think music is something one has or doesn't have. I think
> a good musical
> aptitude can be destroyed or discouraged, but not created.



I definitely agree with this. My brother is gifted...he started violin in 4th
grade (I always found it interesting that they offered orchestra instruments
a year before band instruments trying to get more kids in the orchestra). Picked
up tuba in high school so he could be in the marching band (while still playing
violin in the orchestra). Taught himself bass guitar. Can play the bass line of
any song just by listening to it (I can barely pick out the bass line LOL!).
Went to Phoenix with his band, is now in San Diego. Still plays bass and teaches
guitar. His students love him because he has long hair, a tattoo on his chest, nipple
ring and tongue stud. He makes violin "cool" for the kids mainly because he really
loves it. My brother did "ok" in school, mostly C's and B's (whereas I was the
straight A student). Never went to college, but is now (at 32) taking classes at the
community college to help with the recording work that he does.

I played clarinet starting in 5th grade all through college. I enjoyed it more for the
social aspect of it. I loved marching band and was active in high school as well
as at Virginia Tech (good thing too, because I met my hubby there...he played baritone).
My last year at Tech, I asked our director if I could skip the audition and just play
the 3rd clarinet part. I HATED auditions with a passion. He agreed and I loved being
down near the bottom...got to sit with a sophomore friend of mine who was a music major
and we had a blast. I do not however consider myself overly musical. I can read music,
but I have not had any desire to touch my clarinet since I graduated. I do however
absolutely love classical music and still get a kick out of hearing music on the radio
that I played (although it is getting harder to remember if I played it in high school
or college!) Actually one of the things that I had to work through when I decided
to homeschool was that I would never be a "band mom". Although we do have a local home
school band and there is always Drum Corps International (DCI) which my husband did
when he was in high school (marching band competitions throughout the summer...great shows
if you ever have one around you, check it out. They have the national championships
on PBS around thanksgiving. Powerful stuff. Jason loves it)

As far as xylophone lessons...that is a neat instrument...definitely check out a DCI
show. I love to watch the xylophones in the pit...pretty incredible what they can do.

Stephanie E.

Stephanie Elms

Oops. Meant to say that my brother teaches both bass and violin now...

Stephanie E.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/14/02 10:29:49 AM, webbdionfam@... writes:

<< We keep reminding him of how thoroughly
frustrated he gets when he first plays a new video game. >>

That's interesting. I've likened playing piano with playing video games,
talking to my kids too. There's a pattern to follow, you hit the right
"buttons" in complex patterns... (We've also talked about musicality,
because Holly has some friends who "hit the right buttons" on their
instruments, but never make music, so not to say we haven't talked about
more...)

And I've said "winning the game" is knowing a whole piece well enough not to
"game over" before the end.

Sometimes when I'm feeling hyper, maybe doing a lot of housework and wishing
I weren't, sometimes I put music at the keyboard, and sit and play until the
third mistake, which I consider "losing," and then I go work some more. Next
time I sit, I only play until the third error, etc.

Lame, but real. <g>

<<Who
knows, maybe if he goes to a lesson or two unprepared (he can't stand
feeling confused) he just might decide to practice after all.>>

Maybe he'll learn to do what I used to do!! I perceived that my teacher
wanted to see progress. I would sight read badly at one lesson, and sight
read well at the next one! She felt like a good teacher. During the week I
would play whatever I liked, and sometimes even the assigned piece.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/14/02 1:00:58 PM, stephanie.elms@...
writes:

<< I played clarinet starting in 5th grade all through college. I enjoyed it
more for the
social aspect of it. I loved marching band and was active in high school as
well
as at Virginia Tech (good thing too, because I met my hubby there...he played
baritone). >>

I have NEVER been sorry about friends I've met through musical activities.
Either I'm prejudiced and think all the brightest people are musicians, or
there's something about the mind-workings of musicians that makes them easier
for me to understand and get along with. That's easy to expect from others
who are very physical, or very verbal, or intuitive. It's not that I want to
do music with my musician buddies all the time, or even to LISTEN to
similarly-shared music, but it's something about the way they see the world
and organize their thoughts that resonates with me.

Am I imagining this? Can anyone else shed light on it?

I met my husband singing with him in a madrigal group.
I've never had a boyfriend who wasn't a musician, back to 7th grade. I
wonder about my first grade boyfriend, Michael Barrens, who was in Fort
Worth. Anyone know him? I bet he's a musician. <g>

<<Actually one of the things that I had to work through when I decided
to homeschool was that I would never be a "band mom". >>

Keith and I both grieved band, and nothing else, when we figured out our kids
weren't going to go to school ever.

Kirby joined the homeschool band one year to play clarinet, but flat quit
after the second session. I was sad, but I understood. Marty sings. I hear
him around the house. And he has borrowed my rosewood ocarina, and I hear
him playing it sometimes, goofing with the fingering chart and playing easy
songs. Holly has a guitar but hasn't picked it up lately, she has some songs
she's found or made up on the piano, sings LOTS, and plays fiddle joyfully
(though not yet smoothly).

Sandra

wanderingmommy

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> I have NEVER been sorry about friends I've met through musical
activities.
> Either I'm prejudiced and think all the brightest people are
musicians, or
> there's something about the mind-workings of musicians that makes
them easier
> for me to understand and get along with. That's easy to expect
from others
> who are very physical, or very verbal, or intuitive. It's not that
I want to
> do music with my musician buddies all the time, or even to LISTEN
to
> similarly-shared music, but it's something about the way they see
the world
> and organize their thoughts that resonates with me.
>
> Am I imagining this? Can anyone else shed light on it?

I don't think you are imagining this. I too get along MUCH better
with other "musical types". I think it may have to do with the fact
that music is a unique language, and just like we feel a connection
to others who speak our native tongue (especially if we're surrounded
by those who don't) we feel a certain connection with those who
understand the language of music.

I've had three major love relationships in my life. The first guy was
completely UNmusical; that one ended in total disaster. The second
was sort of musical; I was with him for 5 years. However, the man I
finally married is VERY musical and a talented guitarist. We've been
together 12 years. Just a theory.

Beth

Stephanie Elms

Hmmm. I never really thought about this, but I have always dated guys in the band. THe
one guy I dated my freshman year in college who was not in the band was really cute, but
we just did not have any kind of spark. It only lasted one or two dates if I remember.

Wow. I never realized that I only dated band geeks! Interesting....

Stephanie E.