Re: Speaking of beating people down
Pam Hartley
----------
nor does anyone that I know of except Joyce the Moderator -- sounds like a
feudal title, Joyce <g> -- or Helen the Listowner, and they use their power
with a very light hand. Too light, sometimes, for my grouchy taste <g> but
it is their list and their call, I just hang out here. ;)
unschool "except for math", I think you're wrong. If you mean that some
unschoolers sleep later and some go to bed earlier, I think you're right. If
you mean one "can be a Christian" and hit their children and unschool, I
think you're wrong. If you mean one can take what Jesus modelled, kindness
and compassion, and believe he is the Son of God and still unschool, I think
you're right.
I also haven't seen Sandra say you can't be a Christian and unschool. I also
happen to think she wouldn't say such, as probably some of her friends here
are Christians who unschool.
some of his followers who cause me internal bleeding (not to mention what
they do to their children).
The one sure way to cease all dialog and not let anyone hear your point of
view is to storm out. Don't let the door hit you on your way by. ;) If you
think leaving will stop the conversation here, it grieves me to disillusion
you. Pretending we're not here talking won't stop us from helping other
unschoolers and want-to-be unschoolers.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Sandra has no power here to "not let" people express themselves (nor do I,
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2563
>Date: Sat, Oct 26, 2002, 5:58 PM
>
> I'm just wondering if you realize how you are beating people down and not
> letting them express themselves if they don't wholly agree with you (even the
> brand spanking new unschoolers who come her for help).
nor does anyone that I know of except Joyce the Moderator -- sounds like a
feudal title, Joyce <g> -- or Helen the Listowner, and they use their power
with a very light hand. Too light, sometimes, for my grouchy taste <g> but
it is their list and their call, I just hang out here. ;)
> FYI, unschooling isIt depends on what you mean by "one way" -- if you mean that you can
> not only done one way ... and another FYI, one can be a christian and an
> unschooler.
unschool "except for math", I think you're wrong. If you mean that some
unschoolers sleep later and some go to bed earlier, I think you're right. If
you mean one "can be a Christian" and hit their children and unschool, I
think you're wrong. If you mean one can take what Jesus modelled, kindness
and compassion, and believe he is the Son of God and still unschool, I think
you're right.
I also haven't seen Sandra say you can't be a Christian and unschool. I also
happen to think she wouldn't say such, as probably some of her friends here
are Christians who unschool.
> I'm leaving this list because I'm tired of Jesus bashing from you (and someJesus was a cool guy. I don't personally have any problems with him. It's
> others), I haven't seen anyone bashing your religion (or lack of). AND
> because this list is not conducive to supporting those trying to find their
> way to unschooling. Someone mentioned changing the yahoo description, you
> really should consider it, this is not a welcoming, supportive list!
some of his followers who cause me internal bleeding (not to mention what
they do to their children).
The one sure way to cease all dialog and not let anyone hear your point of
view is to storm out. Don't let the door hit you on your way by. ;) If you
think leaving will stop the conversation here, it grieves me to disillusion
you. Pretending we're not here talking won't stop us from helping other
unschoolers and want-to-be unschoolers.
Pam
kayb85
> > I'm just wondering if you realize how you are beating peopledown and not
> > letting them express themselves if they don't wholly agree withyou (even the
> > brand spanking new unschoolers who come her for help).(nor do I,
>
> Sandra has no power here to "not let" people express themselves
> nor does anyone that I know of except Joyce the Moderator -- soundslike a
> feudal title, Joyce <g> -- or Helen the Listowner, and they usetheir power
> with a very light hand. Too light, sometimes, for my grouchy taste<g> but
> it is their list and their call, I just hang out here. ;I personally like their light hand. :) Discussion lists that are
overly moderated are no fun.
I've checked out other unschooling lists and other unschooling
forums. Nothing comes close to this one for unschooling advice or
intellectually stimulating conversation. I am uncomfortable
sometimes with the low tolerance on this list towards Christianity.
It is openly scoffed at and made fun of, yet if a Christian openly
scoffed at or made fun of pantheism, atheism, or the new age
movement, you can bet it wouldn't be well tolerated. Sandra is
great. The list wouldn't be the same without her insight. She is
blunt and honest about her opinions, but her posts don't have the
iciness in them that some others occasionally do. Except for the
occasional jab at Christianity, I've never felt anything but benefit
from her posts. Even the jabs at Christianity wouldn't be a problem
with me if jabs at other belief systems were equally tolerated on the
list in general.
> > FYI, unschooling isand an
> > not only done one way ... and another FYI, one can be a christian
> > unschooler.some
>
> It depends on what you mean by "one way" -- if you mean that you can
> unschool "except for math", I think you're wrong. If you mean that
> unschoolers sleep later and some go to bed earlier, I think you'reright. If
> you mean one "can be a Christian" and hit their children andunschool, I
> think you're wrong. If you mean one can take what Jesus modelled,kindness
> and compassion, and believe he is the Son of God and stillunschool, I think
> you're right.I have to comment on Christian unschooling. I'm a Christian and I'm
an unschooler. However, there aren't any good resources out there
that I've seen that are specifically for the Christian unschooler.
The Christian Unschooling book is good for helping Abeka
homeschoolers relax, but it's more about relaxed or ecclectic
homeschooling as opposed to unschooling. It talks about unit studies
and stuff. Christian unschooling lists also are usually more relaxed
homeschooling lists. I think there's a new Christian unschooling
book coming out soon, so maybe that will be better.
Ok, you've got me thinking about the can't spank and be a true
unschooler thing. I have to think about it a lot, and it might take
a couple of months. <g> I still won't agree that spanking equals
abuse, but if this comes up again in a few months, maybe I'll agree
with you on the spanking/unschooling thing. Or maybe not, we'll see.
<g>
> Jesus was a cool guy. I don't personally have any problems withhim. It's
> some of his followers who cause me internal bleeding (not tomention what
> they do to their children).Amen to that! Actually, Jesus never got along real well with the
religious folks of His day either.
Sheila
Pam Hartley
----------
society are under the same burden as white males -- basically, they have so
much power already (in government, in business, in society, in our smaller
society of homeschooling) that, while not nice and probably not actually
helpful, poking fun in that general direction is considered more socially
acceptable than kicking the guy (the pagan unschooler, the African-American
next door, the woman in the workplace) who's already down.
Some of it is stuff that some Christian homeschoolers DO bring on
themselves. When HSLDA exists and is powerful, when Michael Farris exists
and is powerful, when large statement-of-faith-requiring southern
homeschooling umbrellas exist and are powerful, pointing this out and
listing the ways it's unhealthy isn't low tolerance, it's fighting for the
survival of those not of that mindset, because these are not "you say
tomayto, I say tomahto" kinda people. They won't just live and let live.
(Sidebar: Which is a great deal of the problem and the
difference-in-tolerance, too: pagan, Jewish, Buddhist, atheist homeschoolers
are not looking for converts to their faith or lack of it. There is no
blatant or hidden agenda.)
Here on this list, Christian homeschooling/unschooling is the minority (at
least the fundamental-Christian types of homeschooling that are actually
being held up as doing harmful things to homeschooling in general and their
own families in particular), but I'm betting there are still lots of people
here who would define themselves as Christians. They may not be speaking up
out of fear of being yelled at, but I think it more likely that many don't
speak up "for the side" because they think that part of "the side" is just
wrong and can't and won't defend it.
I'm a cradle Catholic -- the sorts of Christians Sandra talks about don't
think I'm a Christian, but non-Christians and Catholics themselves would say
I am, by birth and somewhat by inclination (G-d and I are still working that
part out <g>) -- and I can't and won't defend what fundamentalist (for lack
of a better term) Christians do. I lack the zeal or interest to leap into
the discussions much, but never have I felt as a sorta-Catholic-Christian
that I personally am being ostracized or attacked or mocked for my beliefs.
Pam
>From: [email protected]I think that Christian Homeschoolers and Christians-in-general in American
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2565
>Date: Sat, Oct 26, 2002, 9:29 PM
>
> I am uncomfortable
> sometimes with the low tolerance on this list towards Christianity.
> It is openly scoffed at and made fun of, yet if a Christian openly
> scoffed at or made fun of pantheism, atheism, or the new age
> movement, you can bet it wouldn't be well tolerated.
society are under the same burden as white males -- basically, they have so
much power already (in government, in business, in society, in our smaller
society of homeschooling) that, while not nice and probably not actually
helpful, poking fun in that general direction is considered more socially
acceptable than kicking the guy (the pagan unschooler, the African-American
next door, the woman in the workplace) who's already down.
Some of it is stuff that some Christian homeschoolers DO bring on
themselves. When HSLDA exists and is powerful, when Michael Farris exists
and is powerful, when large statement-of-faith-requiring southern
homeschooling umbrellas exist and are powerful, pointing this out and
listing the ways it's unhealthy isn't low tolerance, it's fighting for the
survival of those not of that mindset, because these are not "you say
tomayto, I say tomahto" kinda people. They won't just live and let live.
(Sidebar: Which is a great deal of the problem and the
difference-in-tolerance, too: pagan, Jewish, Buddhist, atheist homeschoolers
are not looking for converts to their faith or lack of it. There is no
blatant or hidden agenda.)
Here on this list, Christian homeschooling/unschooling is the minority (at
least the fundamental-Christian types of homeschooling that are actually
being held up as doing harmful things to homeschooling in general and their
own families in particular), but I'm betting there are still lots of people
here who would define themselves as Christians. They may not be speaking up
out of fear of being yelled at, but I think it more likely that many don't
speak up "for the side" because they think that part of "the side" is just
wrong and can't and won't defend it.
I'm a cradle Catholic -- the sorts of Christians Sandra talks about don't
think I'm a Christian, but non-Christians and Catholics themselves would say
I am, by birth and somewhat by inclination (G-d and I are still working that
part out <g>) -- and I can't and won't defend what fundamentalist (for lack
of a better term) Christians do. I lack the zeal or interest to leap into
the discussions much, but never have I felt as a sorta-Catholic-Christian
that I personally am being ostracized or attacked or mocked for my beliefs.
Pam
Kelli Traaseth
Thank you Pam for writing this, I agree with you on the Jesus point, I can see him loving unschooling!
I'm going out on a limb now, look out,
If I were a 'better' Christian my signature line might read:
Jesus was an unschooler!
Kelli
Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
----------
nor does anyone that I know of except Joyce the Moderator -- sounds like a
feudal title, Joyce <g> -- or Helen the Listowner, and they use their power
with a very light hand. Too light, sometimes, for my grouchy taste <g> but
it is their list and their call, I just hang out here. ;)
unschool "except for math", I think you're wrong. If you mean that some
unschoolers sleep later and some go to bed earlier, I think you're right. If
you mean one "can be a Christian" and hit their children and unschool, I
think you're wrong. If you mean one can take what Jesus modelled, kindness
and compassion, and believe he is the Son of God and still unschool, I think
you're right.
I also haven't seen Sandra say you can't be a Christian and unschool. I also
happen to think she wouldn't say such, as probably some of her friends here
are Christians who unschool.
some of his followers who cause me internal bleeding (not to mention what
they do to their children).
The one sure way to cease all dialog and not let anyone hear your point of
view is to storm out. Don't let the door hit you on your way by. ;) If you
think leaving will stop the conversation here, it grieves me to disillusion
you. Pretending we're not here talking won't stop us from helping other
unschoolers and want-to-be unschoolers.
Pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm going out on a limb now, look out,
If I were a 'better' Christian my signature line might read:
Jesus was an unschooler!
Kelli
Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
----------
>From: [email protected]Sandra has no power here to "not let" people express themselves (nor do I,
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2563
>Date: Sat, Oct 26, 2002, 5:58 PM
>
> I'm just wondering if you realize how you are beating people down and not
> letting them express themselves if they don't wholly agree with you (even the
> brand spanking new unschoolers who come her for help).
nor does anyone that I know of except Joyce the Moderator -- sounds like a
feudal title, Joyce <g> -- or Helen the Listowner, and they use their power
with a very light hand. Too light, sometimes, for my grouchy taste <g> but
it is their list and their call, I just hang out here. ;)
> FYI, unschooling isIt depends on what you mean by "one way" -- if you mean that you can
> not only done one way ... and another FYI, one can be a christian and an
> unschooler.
unschool "except for math", I think you're wrong. If you mean that some
unschoolers sleep later and some go to bed earlier, I think you're right. If
you mean one "can be a Christian" and hit their children and unschool, I
think you're wrong. If you mean one can take what Jesus modelled, kindness
and compassion, and believe he is the Son of God and still unschool, I think
you're right.
I also haven't seen Sandra say you can't be a Christian and unschool. I also
happen to think she wouldn't say such, as probably some of her friends here
are Christians who unschool.
> I'm leaving this list because I'm tired of Jesus bashing from you (and someJesus was a cool guy. I don't personally have any problems with him. It's
> others), I haven't seen anyone bashing your religion (or lack of). AND
> because this list is not conducive to supporting those trying to find their
> way to unschooling. Someone mentioned changing the yahoo description, you
> really should consider it, this is not a welcoming, supportive list!
some of his followers who cause me internal bleeding (not to mention what
they do to their children).
The one sure way to cease all dialog and not let anyone hear your point of
view is to storm out. Don't let the door hit you on your way by. ;) If you
think leaving will stop the conversation here, it grieves me to disillusion
you. Pretending we're not here talking won't stop us from helping other
unschoolers and want-to-be unschoolers.
Pam
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> If I were a 'better' Christian my signature line might read:I think that's true! Jesus never sat His disciples down and told
> Jesus was an unschooler!
> Kelli
them it was time for a Bible study. He went fishing with them and
cooked breakfast for them! He had an advantage over unschooling
parents though, because He knew what they were thinking and knew the
motives of their hearts. Sometimes I wish I was able to do that with
my kids. <g>
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/26/02 9:17:46 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< Sandra is
great. The list wouldn't be the same without her insight. She is
blunt and honest about her opinions, but her posts don't have the
iciness in them that some others occasionally do. >>
Thanks
<<Except for the
occasional jab at Christianity, I've never felt anything but benefit
from her posts. Even the jabs at Christianity wouldn't be a problem
with me if jabs at other belief systems were equally tolerated on the
list in general. >>
If any other group claimed to have invented homeschooling, or if any other
group was trying to change homeschooling laws so they make unschooling more
difficult and only favor a bought curriculum, I would be jabbing the heck out
of them.
The only jab-worthy large group within "the homeschooling movement" is the
Christian homeschoolers. They very largely disapprove of an belittle
unschooling.
None of the above has anything to do with Jesus or with Christianity as a
religion.
Sandra
<< Sandra is
great. The list wouldn't be the same without her insight. She is
blunt and honest about her opinions, but her posts don't have the
iciness in them that some others occasionally do. >>
Thanks
<<Except for the
occasional jab at Christianity, I've never felt anything but benefit
from her posts. Even the jabs at Christianity wouldn't be a problem
with me if jabs at other belief systems were equally tolerated on the
list in general. >>
If any other group claimed to have invented homeschooling, or if any other
group was trying to change homeschooling laws so they make unschooling more
difficult and only favor a bought curriculum, I would be jabbing the heck out
of them.
The only jab-worthy large group within "the homeschooling movement" is the
Christian homeschoolers. They very largely disapprove of an belittle
unschooling.
None of the above has anything to do with Jesus or with Christianity as a
religion.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/27/02 9:17:43 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< I think that's true! Jesus never sat His disciples down and told
them it was time for a Bible study. He went fishing with them and
cooked breakfast for them! >>
You don't want to go there to defend unschooling.
He told them to leave their wives and families.
I've never known how Christians could merrily avoid looking at that in the
same light as and at the same moment they are demanding that God wants
families to stay intact to death.
Sandra
<< I think that's true! Jesus never sat His disciples down and told
them it was time for a Bible study. He went fishing with them and
cooked breakfast for them! >>
You don't want to go there to defend unschooling.
He told them to leave their wives and families.
I've never known how Christians could merrily avoid looking at that in the
same light as and at the same moment they are demanding that God wants
families to stay intact to death.
Sandra
Betsy
**You don't want to go there to defend unschooling.
He told them to leave their wives and families.**
Hey, even Buddha probably wouldn't approve of Attachment Parenting.
Betsy
He told them to leave their wives and families.**
Hey, even Buddha probably wouldn't approve of Attachment Parenting.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/27/02 2:56:11 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Hey, even Buddha probably wouldn't approve of Attachment Parenting. >>
He sure didn't practice it!
Talk about yer non-attachment!!!
<< Hey, even Buddha probably wouldn't approve of Attachment Parenting. >>
He sure didn't practice it!
Talk about yer non-attachment!!!
kayb85
Who (in the Bible) left his wife for Christ?
Sheila
Sheila
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/27/02 9:17:43 AM, sheran@p... writes:
>
> << I think that's true! Jesus never sat His disciples down and
told
> them it was time for a Bible study. He went fishing with them and
> cooked breakfast for them! >>
>
> You don't want to go there to defend unschooling.
> He told them to leave their wives and families.
>
> I've never known how Christians could merrily avoid looking at that
in the
> same light as and at the same moment they are demanding that God
wants
> families to stay intact to death.
>
> Sandra
kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
kind of guy.
Sheila
>Parenting. >>
> In a message dated 10/27/02 2:56:11 PM, ecsamhill@e... writes:
>
> << Hey, even Buddha probably wouldn't approve of Attachment
>Really? I thought Buddha was a It-doesn't-matter-which-path-you-take
> He sure didn't practice it!
> Talk about yer non-attachment!!!
kind of guy.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/27/02 4:25:52 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< Who (in the Bible) left his wife for Christ? >>
Either some of them or none of them.
Since he was TELLING them to do it, don't you hope the answer was LOTS of
them?
Another of those dilemmas...
Sandra
<< Who (in the Bible) left his wife for Christ? >>
Either some of them or none of them.
Since he was TELLING them to do it, don't you hope the answer was LOTS of
them?
Another of those dilemmas...
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 10/27/02 6:53 PM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:
rulership) to become an ascetic.
The memory is fading ;-) but the gist of the story goes that someone
prophesied to Siddhartha's father that his son would either become the
greatest ascetic or the greatest leader. Prefering king as a career path for
his son ;-) Siddhartha's father was determined that his son would never
experience any of the saddness of life so there would be no reason to become
an ascetic. He lived a protected life in the palace. If he ever left,
runners were sent ahead to remove anything that might upset him. He married.
Had a child. (Or children?)
Then one day he went out without things being cleared for him and he saw the
4 things over 4 days that he wasn't supposed to see: a sick man, an old man,
a dead man, and an ascetic.
The ascetic said he'd become an ascetic because of all the suffering in the
world. This so disturbed Siddhartha that after many days of depression he
left behind everything -- including his heavy earings that had deformed his
earlobes (a sign of wealth) that are usually represented in images of him --
to wander the land as an ascetic. He devoted himself to it and during one
fast nearly died before someone fed him. This revived him enough for him to
meditate beneath a Bo Tree where he became enlightened. What he realized was
that neither end of the spectrum that he'd experienced was the proper path,
that there was a Middle Path or Middle Way (which is what his teachings are
called).
And so he became The Buddha.
Joyce
> Really? I thought Buddha was a It-doesn't-matter-which-path-you-takeBefore becoming the Buddha Siddhartha abandoned wife and kid(s) (and
> kind of guy.
rulership) to become an ascetic.
The memory is fading ;-) but the gist of the story goes that someone
prophesied to Siddhartha's father that his son would either become the
greatest ascetic or the greatest leader. Prefering king as a career path for
his son ;-) Siddhartha's father was determined that his son would never
experience any of the saddness of life so there would be no reason to become
an ascetic. He lived a protected life in the palace. If he ever left,
runners were sent ahead to remove anything that might upset him. He married.
Had a child. (Or children?)
Then one day he went out without things being cleared for him and he saw the
4 things over 4 days that he wasn't supposed to see: a sick man, an old man,
a dead man, and an ascetic.
The ascetic said he'd become an ascetic because of all the suffering in the
world. This so disturbed Siddhartha that after many days of depression he
left behind everything -- including his heavy earings that had deformed his
earlobes (a sign of wealth) that are usually represented in images of him --
to wander the land as an ascetic. He devoted himself to it and during one
fast nearly died before someone fed him. This revived him enough for him to
meditate beneath a Bo Tree where he became enlightened. What he realized was
that neither end of the spectrum that he'd experienced was the proper path,
that there was a Middle Path or Middle Way (which is what his teachings are
called).
And so he became The Buddha.
Joyce
kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Sheila
>LOTS of
> In a message dated 10/27/02 4:25:52 PM, sheran@p... writes:
>
> << Who (in the Bible) left his wife for Christ? >>
>
> Either some of them or none of them.
>
> Since he was TELLING them to do it, don't you hope the answer was
> them?I guess it depends if any of them were married.
>
> Another of those dilemmas...
>
> Sandra
Sheila
Mike Ebbers
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>> You don't want to go there to defend unschooling.
>> He told them to leave their wives and families.
>> I've never known how Christians could merrily avoid looking at
>>that in the same light as and at the same moment they are demanding
>>that God wants families to stay intact to death.
>> Sandra
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:
> Who (in the Bible) left his wife for Christ?
> Sheila
Jesus' ministry on earth lasted three years (ages 30-33). I don't
think the apostles "left" their families for good during that time.
Maybe they left from time to time like a traveling salesperson goes
on the road. And I think they continued with their families after
Jesus was gone.
John the Baptizer had disciples also. It must have been common in
those days for prophets and teachers to have a following of
disciples.
There is a Bible story where Jesus's disciples went to visit Peter's
wife. She was sick but they healed her and she got up to prepare a
meal for them. She couldn't have been too mad at Jesus. (I can't
find the reference offhand, but if anyone is interested I'll keep
looking.)
Also James and John must not have been married at that time. Their
mother went to Jesus to ask that they be allowed to sit at his right
and left hand when he took his throne. She must appreciated Jesus'
influence on her sons, known as the "sons of thunder".
Mike
not seeing anything anti-family in Jesus' teachings
although Jesus did recommend that we put a love of God ahead of our
family