re: spanking/no spanking
[email protected]
***Is it ok to be verbally mean to people because they have a different
point of view? That's not good discussion and it's not good
debating.***
Is it really "mean" to not want to hear anything another person has to say? That particular comment struck me has honest, not mean. Mabye the fact that her "discipline" tactics sent cold fears up another parent's spine will be the catalyst for that woman to change. Who knows?
***As far as who is disrupting the list, I don't think it's the people
who are brave enough to stick up for their right to discipline their
children according to their own consciences, I think it's the handful
of people who reply with cold meanness***
If I decide to "discipline" my children "according to my conscience" by locking them in the cold basement all night with no clothes and no dinner, is that my right as a parent? What about if I "disciplined" my not yet potty trained toddler by forcing him to remain in a feces filled diaper for hours? Would you be polite and respectful to me and happily engage in conversation with me if I announced that I did such a thing? These are atual true stories I've read about in news articles. Do you support those parent's rights? How far would you take that idea?
I'm amazed that you support parents' "rights" to hurt their own children but you refer to adults speaking their minds with other adults as "cold meanness."
Patti
point of view? That's not good discussion and it's not good
debating.***
Is it really "mean" to not want to hear anything another person has to say? That particular comment struck me has honest, not mean. Mabye the fact that her "discipline" tactics sent cold fears up another parent's spine will be the catalyst for that woman to change. Who knows?
***As far as who is disrupting the list, I don't think it's the people
who are brave enough to stick up for their right to discipline their
children according to their own consciences, I think it's the handful
of people who reply with cold meanness***
If I decide to "discipline" my children "according to my conscience" by locking them in the cold basement all night with no clothes and no dinner, is that my right as a parent? What about if I "disciplined" my not yet potty trained toddler by forcing him to remain in a feces filled diaper for hours? Would you be polite and respectful to me and happily engage in conversation with me if I announced that I did such a thing? These are atual true stories I've read about in news articles. Do you support those parent's rights? How far would you take that idea?
I'm amazed that you support parents' "rights" to hurt their own children but you refer to adults speaking their minds with other adults as "cold meanness."
Patti
Myranda
This reminds me of the way some people think that having no limits or rules for your children mean that they run around wild, leaving a trail of chaos and destruction in their path. Supporting parental rights is no different. It doesn't necessarily mean hurting or abusing your children, any more than not limiting children means ignoring and neglecting them.
Myranda
From: patti.schmidt2@...
Is it really "mean" to not want to hear anything another person has to say? That particular comment struck me has honest, not mean. Mabye the fact that her "discipline" tactics sent cold fears up another parent's spine will be the catalyst for that woman to change. Who knows?
If I decide to "discipline" my children "according to my conscience" by locking them in the cold basement all night with no clothes and no dinner, is that my right as a parent? What about if I "disciplined" my not yet potty trained toddler by forcing him to remain in a feces filled diaper for hours? Would you be polite and respectful to me and happily engage in conversation with me if I announced that I did such a thing? These are atual true stories I've read about in news articles. Do you support those parent's rights? How far would you take that idea?
I'm amazed that you support parents' "rights" to hurt their own children but you refer to adults speaking their minds with other adults as "cold meanness."
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: patti.schmidt2@...
Is it really "mean" to not want to hear anything another person has to say? That particular comment struck me has honest, not mean. Mabye the fact that her "discipline" tactics sent cold fears up another parent's spine will be the catalyst for that woman to change. Who knows?
If I decide to "discipline" my children "according to my conscience" by locking them in the cold basement all night with no clothes and no dinner, is that my right as a parent? What about if I "disciplined" my not yet potty trained toddler by forcing him to remain in a feces filled diaper for hours? Would you be polite and respectful to me and happily engage in conversation with me if I announced that I did such a thing? These are atual true stories I've read about in news articles. Do you support those parent's rights? How far would you take that idea?
I'm amazed that you support parents' "rights" to hurt their own children but you refer to adults speaking their minds with other adults as "cold meanness."
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
Bridget, your post made me very sad, not just for your children, but for you and your
husband as well. I don't think that you really realize what kind of relationship you are
missing out on with your children. I speak from experience here, not with spanking but
with another form of coercive parenting in the guise of teaching our children.
In our case it was ferberizing. Jason had started sleeping longer stretches when he
was 10 weeks old, so when he started waking up during the night when he was around 6 or
7 months old I didn't understand why. One of my friends gave me Ferber's book and told
me that it worked great and that I needed to do it, he would not learn any other way.
I read it and did not like the sound of it. But at around 8 or 9 months I finally
gave in and we did it (after all, all the parenting mags and experts said we had to
do it). It "worked" like a charm. First night he cried for 30 mins
(the longest 30 mins in my entire life), the second for 15 mins, the 3rd for 5 mins
and after that all we had to do was read a book or 2, put him in his crib and he
would go to sleep by himself. No fuss, no muss. We had our evenings to ourselves and
a very "good" baby.
Luckily when he started waking at night again at 12 months, I had found an Attachment
Parenting board and found out that there *were* kids who were never left to cry it out
and who did learn to sleep on their own. That it was extremely normal for babies to
start waking when they had been sleeping well previously (due to a variety of
developmental and physical reasons). I was so relieved to have people tell me that my
instincts were correct and that there were other options. It took three months of
me trying different things and reading a lot before we got to a manageable balance for
both of us.
Those were extremely tiring and frustrating times for me. And I would not trade them
for the world. I learned so much about my son and about myself during that time. I
grew as a mother and as a person. Some of my favorite memories of Jason as a baby are
from that time. I learned that sometimes you just have to surrender yourself to your
reality (not give up, but rather accept it for now). Realize that some things are beyond
your control. And that your children are worth it.
I also learned what I was missing those 4 or 5 months that Jason put himself to sleep.
I missed rocking and nursing him to sleep. One of life's few remaining simple pleasures
and I had been quilted into thinking that it was wrong. I also found that by gently
parenting him to sleep and by responding to him at night that our relationship was taken
to a new level. During the months that Jason went to sleep alone, I thought that we
had a wonderful relationship. You could not have told me that we could have an even
better one. We cuddled a lot during the day, read a lot, had fun a lot. But after I started
responding to his needs at night, we got to know each other on a deeper level. I learned
things about myself and about him (including that he had a dairy intolerance problem that
we had overlooked before and was a large cause of the nightwakings) that I never would
have found if he had continued to be that "good" baby. By forcing myself to look at
other options that respected him as a person, I grew as a parent. When Kyle was
born, I was better able to enjoy our night times together from the start. I did
not worry about getting him on a schedule or getting him to sleep longer. I trusted
that he would. And he did. He has always been a "better" sleeper then Jason. Go figure.
So, yes, in the short term, spanking does create obedient kids (for some, for others
it creates rebellious kids). But what are you missing? I put a lot of thought into
how I parent, try to figure out what is really going on to make Jason act the way that
he is acting. Many times it is in reaction to something that I am or am not doing.
Sometimes he is in a bad mood. I am striving to handle things better every day. The
advice that I have gotten on this list has made me a more responsive parent and I
believe that is helping my relationship with both of my boys. I look at the old timers
and see wonderful relationships with their kids. That is what I want. I want a child
who respects me because I respect him. I can only respect him by treating him how I want
to be treated. So I do not believe in spanking.
I am sure that you feel that you have a great relationship with your children. But what
if that relationship could get even better? There are people telling you that it can.
I learned this lesson when Jason was little and I am so thankful.
Stephanie E.
husband as well. I don't think that you really realize what kind of relationship you are
missing out on with your children. I speak from experience here, not with spanking but
with another form of coercive parenting in the guise of teaching our children.
In our case it was ferberizing. Jason had started sleeping longer stretches when he
was 10 weeks old, so when he started waking up during the night when he was around 6 or
7 months old I didn't understand why. One of my friends gave me Ferber's book and told
me that it worked great and that I needed to do it, he would not learn any other way.
I read it and did not like the sound of it. But at around 8 or 9 months I finally
gave in and we did it (after all, all the parenting mags and experts said we had to
do it). It "worked" like a charm. First night he cried for 30 mins
(the longest 30 mins in my entire life), the second for 15 mins, the 3rd for 5 mins
and after that all we had to do was read a book or 2, put him in his crib and he
would go to sleep by himself. No fuss, no muss. We had our evenings to ourselves and
a very "good" baby.
Luckily when he started waking at night again at 12 months, I had found an Attachment
Parenting board and found out that there *were* kids who were never left to cry it out
and who did learn to sleep on their own. That it was extremely normal for babies to
start waking when they had been sleeping well previously (due to a variety of
developmental and physical reasons). I was so relieved to have people tell me that my
instincts were correct and that there were other options. It took three months of
me trying different things and reading a lot before we got to a manageable balance for
both of us.
Those were extremely tiring and frustrating times for me. And I would not trade them
for the world. I learned so much about my son and about myself during that time. I
grew as a mother and as a person. Some of my favorite memories of Jason as a baby are
from that time. I learned that sometimes you just have to surrender yourself to your
reality (not give up, but rather accept it for now). Realize that some things are beyond
your control. And that your children are worth it.
I also learned what I was missing those 4 or 5 months that Jason put himself to sleep.
I missed rocking and nursing him to sleep. One of life's few remaining simple pleasures
and I had been quilted into thinking that it was wrong. I also found that by gently
parenting him to sleep and by responding to him at night that our relationship was taken
to a new level. During the months that Jason went to sleep alone, I thought that we
had a wonderful relationship. You could not have told me that we could have an even
better one. We cuddled a lot during the day, read a lot, had fun a lot. But after I started
responding to his needs at night, we got to know each other on a deeper level. I learned
things about myself and about him (including that he had a dairy intolerance problem that
we had overlooked before and was a large cause of the nightwakings) that I never would
have found if he had continued to be that "good" baby. By forcing myself to look at
other options that respected him as a person, I grew as a parent. When Kyle was
born, I was better able to enjoy our night times together from the start. I did
not worry about getting him on a schedule or getting him to sleep longer. I trusted
that he would. And he did. He has always been a "better" sleeper then Jason. Go figure.
So, yes, in the short term, spanking does create obedient kids (for some, for others
it creates rebellious kids). But what are you missing? I put a lot of thought into
how I parent, try to figure out what is really going on to make Jason act the way that
he is acting. Many times it is in reaction to something that I am or am not doing.
Sometimes he is in a bad mood. I am striving to handle things better every day. The
advice that I have gotten on this list has made me a more responsive parent and I
believe that is helping my relationship with both of my boys. I look at the old timers
and see wonderful relationships with their kids. That is what I want. I want a child
who respects me because I respect him. I can only respect him by treating him how I want
to be treated. So I do not believe in spanking.
I am sure that you feel that you have a great relationship with your children. But what
if that relationship could get even better? There are people telling you that it can.
I learned this lesson when Jason was little and I am so thankful.
Stephanie E.
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>From: "Stephanie Elms" <stephanie.elms@...><<Bridget, your post made me very sad, not just for your children, but for
you and your husband as well. I don't think that you really realize what
kind of relationship you are missing out on with your children. I speak from
experience here, not with spanking but with another form of coercive
parenting in the guise of teaching our children.>>
Stephanie, I enjoyed what you had to say about all of this. Glad you ended
up with joyous experiences.
I remember when that Ferber crap came out. Heard rave reviews about it from
all kinds of people. I also remember when Joseph was waking often as a baby
after sleeping so well from the start. My husband Joe and I discussed the
Ferber thing. He thought maybe we should try it and I was saying no way. So
one night Joseph starts to cry after sleeping maybe an hour and Joe heads
off to make sure he was okay and then to let him "cry it out." I'm in the
bedroom listening on the intercom. I hear him go into the room and tell
Joseph it's sleep time. I hear the door close and total quiet. I'm waiting
for the crying to start and nothing. But no Joe either. I get up and go into
the living room and there's my husband sitting with a very happy baby on the
couch!!!! Big old lug didn't have the heart after all. Couldn't help but
love him all over again!!
<<I am sure that you feel that you have a great relationship with your
children. But what if that relationship could get even better? There are
people telling you that it can. I learned this lesson when Jason was little
and I am so thankful.>>
Just tonight I asked my 2 year old to "come here" and she was dawdling over
something much more interesting than me wiping chocolate ice cream off her
face. I repeated twice more and ended up meeting her half way. First thing I
thought of was some kids would get a spanking for that. I hugged her before
the chocolate was wiped off!!
Mary B
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Stephanie Elms
> Stephanie, I enjoyed what you had to say about all of this.So am I. I learned a lot. This is still one of my biggest parenting regrets. That
> Glad you ended
> up with joyous experiences.
I did not listen to my instincts that knew it was wrong. Hadn't realized that most
parenting experts have no idea what they are talking about. So hard to ignore when
it is all you hear. And it is your first baby so you do not realize that most
children go through this and grow out of it. :o)
>Sounds like a keeper! How sweet.
> couch!!!! Big old lug didn't have the heart after all.
> Couldn't help but
> love him all over again!!
>
> Just tonight I asked my 2 year old to "come here" and she wasYeah, I have been more aware of this as well. The nice thing is that I am getting
> dawdling over
> something much more interesting than me wiping chocolate ice
> cream off her
> face. I repeated twice more and ended up meeting her half
> way. First thing I
> thought of was some kids would get a spanking for that. I
> hugged her before
> the chocolate was wiped off!!
to the point where I do not feel like I need to be a policeman with my kids.
I am starting to relax on things. I realized today that I have been yelling a lot
less lately...making small steps...
Stephanie E.
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 11:29:51 PM Central Daylight Time,
webfeedback@... writes:
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
webfeedback@... writes:
> Thanks! We are now routing your email to the appropriate department. Ifwhat is this?
> your email requires a response, someone will get back to you with the
> information you need as soon as possible.
>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/26/02 12:16:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Just tonight I asked my 2 year old to "come here" and she was dawdling
over
something much more interesting than me wiping chocolate ice cream off her
face. I repeated twice more and ended up meeting her half way. First thing I
thought of was some kids would get a spanking for that. I hugged her before
the chocolate was wiped off!! >>
I like your story!
I had one yesterday too that made me think of this discussion.
Sierra and I had some time alone, Baby was sleeping, Trevor and Jared had
walked up to Toys-R-Us. She got out a bunch of art stuff and we painted
together for a while.
She kept at it another hour after I gave up....
Later, I went to clean up the mess and asked her to "please come here" She
said "Ok, Mom" and walked over to me (I had to wonder if she'd want to come
if I was a spanker that scared her all the time). I asked her to help me get
the paint stuff cleaned up and she said "sure" and then "but Mom, I'm playing
with Jalen right now" (who had woken up and was in the middle of a pile of
hand puppets Sierra had gotten out in the meantime).
They were so happily playing together, and it was a big help for me to have
her keeping him entertained, so I said I'd clean up the messy stuff and would
she please just put the paintbrushes and paint away later.
She was happy to oblige.
A spanked child might have done it out of fear.
I prefer her doing it with joy, just because we work together and help each
other frequently.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Just tonight I asked my 2 year old to "come here" and she was dawdling
over
something much more interesting than me wiping chocolate ice cream off her
face. I repeated twice more and ended up meeting her half way. First thing I
thought of was some kids would get a spanking for that. I hugged her before
the chocolate was wiped off!! >>
I like your story!
I had one yesterday too that made me think of this discussion.
Sierra and I had some time alone, Baby was sleeping, Trevor and Jared had
walked up to Toys-R-Us. She got out a bunch of art stuff and we painted
together for a while.
She kept at it another hour after I gave up....
Later, I went to clean up the mess and asked her to "please come here" She
said "Ok, Mom" and walked over to me (I had to wonder if she'd want to come
if I was a spanker that scared her all the time). I asked her to help me get
the paint stuff cleaned up and she said "sure" and then "but Mom, I'm playing
with Jalen right now" (who had woken up and was in the middle of a pile of
hand puppets Sierra had gotten out in the meantime).
They were so happily playing together, and it was a big help for me to have
her keeping him entertained, so I said I'd clean up the messy stuff and would
she please just put the paintbrushes and paint away later.
She was happy to oblige.
A spanked child might have done it out of fear.
I prefer her doing it with joy, just because we work together and help each
other frequently.
Ren
kayb85
That makes me think about how I'd ask my husband for help. I would
never just demand that he drop what he's doing instantly to help me
with something. If I DID, he might *sometimes* say ok right away and
he might sometimes say that he'll be there when he's free. So now I'm
learning not to demand things of my kids like that. I've been asking
myself, "How would I ask another adult for help in doing that?"
I think that sometimes people forget that what our kids are doing is
important and valuable even when it doesn't seem important through
our adult eyes.
Sheila
never just demand that he drop what he's doing instantly to help me
with something. If I DID, he might *sometimes* say ok right away and
he might sometimes say that he'll be there when he's free. So now I'm
learning not to demand things of my kids like that. I've been asking
myself, "How would I ask another adult for help in doing that?"
I think that sometimes people forget that what our kids are doing is
important and valuable even when it doesn't seem important through
our adult eyes.
Sheila
> I like your story!Jared had
> I had one yesterday too that made me think of this discussion.
> Sierra and I had some time alone, Baby was sleeping, Trevor and
> walked up to Toys-R-Us. She got out a bunch of art stuff and wepainted
> together for a while.here" She
> She kept at it another hour after I gave up....
> Later, I went to clean up the mess and asked her to "please come
> said "Ok, Mom" and walked over to me (I had to wonder if she'd wantto come
> if I was a spanker that scared her all the time). I asked her tohelp me get
> the paint stuff cleaned up and she said "sure" and then "but Mom,I'm playing
> with Jalen right now" (who had woken up and was in the middle of apile of
> hand puppets Sierra had gotten out in the meantime).to have
> They were so happily playing together, and it was a big help for me
> her keeping him entertained, so I said I'd clean up the messy stuffand would
> she please just put the paintbrushes and paint away later.help each
> She was happy to oblige.
> A spanked child might have done it out of fear.
> I prefer her doing it with joy, just because we work together and
> other frequently.
>
> Ren
Fetteroll
on 10/26/02 2:10 AM, Dnowens@... at Dnowens@... wrote:
generates automatic thank yous. Like an address on a webpage you send
complaints to. Though perhaps that message only gets generated when the
person is using that address to reply from and it sends the automatic one
instead.
Joyce
>> Thanks! We are now routing your email to the appropriate department. IfSomeone signed onto the list using an email address that apparently
>> your email requires a response, someone will get back to you with the
>> information you need as soon as possible.
>>
>
> what is this?
generates automatic thank yous. Like an address on a webpage you send
complaints to. Though perhaps that message only gets generated when the
person is using that address to reply from and it sends the automatic one
instead.
Joyce
Valerie
> I think that sometimes people forget that what our kids are doingis
> important and valuable even when it doesn't seem important throughSheila, this is something I tried to get across to people so many
> our adult eyes.
>
> Sheila
times when Laurie was young. They couldn't understand why I gave
Laurie's choices as much credence as an adults.
love, Valerie