Re: "Parents' Top Goal: Raising Thinkers"
Lynda
If one is a truely independent thinker, then the answer is yes. All
thought is influenced to some degree by ones surroundings and to a true
independent thinker, main stream life would only be something that one
takes what one needs from it and then tosses the rest aside.
You can only "encourage," not force. So, if a child has the type of
personality that is not comfortable being a truely independent thinker,
then they won't. We can hope all we want but each child is an individual
and only so much of their growth and development is within our powers to
help or harm. They have a core personality that is simply them and no
amount of outside influence, be it good or bad, is going to change the
essential them.
Lynda
----------
thought is influenced to some degree by ones surroundings and to a true
independent thinker, main stream life would only be something that one
takes what one needs from it and then tosses the rest aside.
You can only "encourage," not force. So, if a child has the type of
personality that is not comfortable being a truely independent thinker,
then they won't. We can hope all we want but each child is an individual
and only so much of their growth and development is within our powers to
help or harm. They have a core personality that is simply them and no
amount of outside influence, be it good or bad, is going to change the
essential them.
Lynda
----------
> From: "John O. Andersen" <andersen@...>independent
>
>
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/news/article/0,5744,130+29669,00.html
>
> My questions:
>
> How do we encourage our children to be independent thinkers?
>
> Are there any societal forces which hamper the development of independent
> thinking?
>
> Can a person live a largely mainstream life and still be a truly
> thinker?
>
> John Andersen
> http://members.xoom.com/joandersen
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
John O. Andersen
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/news/article/0,5744,130+29669,00.html
My questions:
How do we encourage our children to be independent thinkers?
Are there any societal forces which hamper the development of independent
thinking?
Can a person live a largely mainstream life and still be a truly independent
thinker?
John Andersen
http://members.xoom.com/joandersen
My questions:
How do we encourage our children to be independent thinkers?
Are there any societal forces which hamper the development of independent
thinking?
Can a person live a largely mainstream life and still be a truly independent
thinker?
John Andersen
http://members.xoom.com/joandersen
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/24/99 9:01:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
andersen@... writes:
<< Are there any societal forces which hamper the development of independent
thinking? >>
I am interested in all the questions you resented but this relates to one
I've been worrying over.
I absolutely detest the effect the peer culture has had on my older boys.
I don't know that my husband and I have willingly relaxed our expectations at
home as much as we are exhausted from the daily battle to retain our values.
I am praying that keeping the youngest two at home and out of high school
will allow our kids to have the freedom to dare to think for themselves. I
have a terrible fear that even this won't matter.
Those of you out there with teenage hser's, do you think hsing has made a
difference?
Laura
andersen@... writes:
<< Are there any societal forces which hamper the development of independent
thinking? >>
I am interested in all the questions you resented but this relates to one
I've been worrying over.
I absolutely detest the effect the peer culture has had on my older boys.
I don't know that my husband and I have willingly relaxed our expectations at
home as much as we are exhausted from the daily battle to retain our values.
I am praying that keeping the youngest two at home and out of high school
will allow our kids to have the freedom to dare to think for themselves. I
have a terrible fear that even this won't matter.
Those of you out there with teenage hser's, do you think hsing has made a
difference?
Laura
Joel Hawthorne
Attending the Gordon Neufeld parenting course has reinforced many observations we
have had about children generally. He is absolutely intense about the need for
restricting peer interaction especially at younger ages but absolutely at older
ages too if need be.
He describes the process of "wooing" children who have drifted from their
parents. He took his adolescent daughter to a geographically isolated "favorite"
place, made sure the TV was broken, and lived with her bitter complaints of
boredom for about three days before he was able to reconnect with her. They
reestablished the connection they had when she was a child and have never allowed
it to be broken again. She is 27 now, studying music in Salzburg and still has a
"special" time with her father once a week by phone.
Gordon believes that even with adolescents there is a need to restrict peer
interaction. He believes in taking a proactive stance of organizing activity for
families which brings them together.
It is of course complicated when the children in question are "defended".
Meaning that they have hardened, lost their sensitivities and resist attachment
driven relationships (except for the primarily sterile substitutes they have
found with peers).
I think if I found myself with teenagers who were being absorbed by peer culture
I would do whatever was necessary to break the cycle. This would include moving
if that is what it took. Spending lots of time with them is a key. If they are
peer identified this of course is the last thing they want to do. It has to be a
process of wooing with the velvet glove being foremost with iron resolve beneath
but not a fist. If I am not mangling metaphors too badly.
Defendedness occurs when attachment has been used as a weapon to manipulate
behaviour. Separation, time-outs, "consequences" these result in emotional
desensitivty and take a lot of effort to undo.
Children follow the lead of their parents naturally if parents understand the
developmental needs of their children. Most people are terribly confused.
People have come to accept "typical" behaviour as "normal" which is absolutely
not the case.
Much of this language reflects Gordon Neufeld's approach. For us it is again
reinforcement for that which we hold true already.
Being proactive and defining your families "life" to reflect your values is
crucial. It must be done with sensitivity and respect but with insistence.
The "wooing" which comes automatically with infants cannot be abandoned with
older children. I have first hand experienced this change in my own
relationships with my children. If I bring the same 'focus' to bear with my six
and ten year olds that I had when they were babies we do great. It is a kind of
enthusiasm and willingness to accommodate their needs, listen to them with
enormous sensitivity and spend lots of voluntary time with them.
People are fooled by the superficial independence of peer identified children.
They have less "work" as parents because their kids seem to "take care" of
themselves. It is, of course, a lie. They don't take care of themselves they
try to meet their attachment needs with peers which is an empty pursuit which
leaves them hungry and addicted to peer interaction.
Of course the economic smoke and mirrors we live in doesn't help. The fact that
it now takes two incomes to maintain what we have come to expect as a normal
lifestyle further erodes home life. We are told we live in boom times but North
Americans work more hours than any industrialized country. We are blind to the
enormous decline in our standard of living as we revel in the booming economy.
The rich continue to become richer, democracy wilts, and in the midst of this
people try to have a "home". It is not a wonder that it is hard to create a home
in the midst of intellectual and ethical poverty.
So spare no expense. Do what it takes. Challenge those assumptions that keep
things the same....employment, location, "friends in the neighborhood", whatever
keeps a person from exercising the freedom that they still have.
I don't know if I am on topic or not any more.
Bonknit@... wrote:
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
have had about children generally. He is absolutely intense about the need for
restricting peer interaction especially at younger ages but absolutely at older
ages too if need be.
He describes the process of "wooing" children who have drifted from their
parents. He took his adolescent daughter to a geographically isolated "favorite"
place, made sure the TV was broken, and lived with her bitter complaints of
boredom for about three days before he was able to reconnect with her. They
reestablished the connection they had when she was a child and have never allowed
it to be broken again. She is 27 now, studying music in Salzburg and still has a
"special" time with her father once a week by phone.
Gordon believes that even with adolescents there is a need to restrict peer
interaction. He believes in taking a proactive stance of organizing activity for
families which brings them together.
It is of course complicated when the children in question are "defended".
Meaning that they have hardened, lost their sensitivities and resist attachment
driven relationships (except for the primarily sterile substitutes they have
found with peers).
I think if I found myself with teenagers who were being absorbed by peer culture
I would do whatever was necessary to break the cycle. This would include moving
if that is what it took. Spending lots of time with them is a key. If they are
peer identified this of course is the last thing they want to do. It has to be a
process of wooing with the velvet glove being foremost with iron resolve beneath
but not a fist. If I am not mangling metaphors too badly.
Defendedness occurs when attachment has been used as a weapon to manipulate
behaviour. Separation, time-outs, "consequences" these result in emotional
desensitivty and take a lot of effort to undo.
Children follow the lead of their parents naturally if parents understand the
developmental needs of their children. Most people are terribly confused.
People have come to accept "typical" behaviour as "normal" which is absolutely
not the case.
Much of this language reflects Gordon Neufeld's approach. For us it is again
reinforcement for that which we hold true already.
Being proactive and defining your families "life" to reflect your values is
crucial. It must be done with sensitivity and respect but with insistence.
The "wooing" which comes automatically with infants cannot be abandoned with
older children. I have first hand experienced this change in my own
relationships with my children. If I bring the same 'focus' to bear with my six
and ten year olds that I had when they were babies we do great. It is a kind of
enthusiasm and willingness to accommodate their needs, listen to them with
enormous sensitivity and spend lots of voluntary time with them.
People are fooled by the superficial independence of peer identified children.
They have less "work" as parents because their kids seem to "take care" of
themselves. It is, of course, a lie. They don't take care of themselves they
try to meet their attachment needs with peers which is an empty pursuit which
leaves them hungry and addicted to peer interaction.
Of course the economic smoke and mirrors we live in doesn't help. The fact that
it now takes two incomes to maintain what we have come to expect as a normal
lifestyle further erodes home life. We are told we live in boom times but North
Americans work more hours than any industrialized country. We are blind to the
enormous decline in our standard of living as we revel in the booming economy.
The rich continue to become richer, democracy wilts, and in the midst of this
people try to have a "home". It is not a wonder that it is hard to create a home
in the midst of intellectual and ethical poverty.
So spare no expense. Do what it takes. Challenge those assumptions that keep
things the same....employment, location, "friends in the neighborhood", whatever
keeps a person from exercising the freedom that they still have.
I don't know if I am on topic or not any more.
Bonknit@... wrote:
> From: Bonknit@...best wishes
>
> In a message dated 11/24/99 9:01:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> andersen@... writes:
>
> << Are there any societal forces which hamper the development of independent
> thinking? >>
>
> I am interested in all the questions you resented but this relates to one
> I've been worrying over.
> I absolutely detest the effect the peer culture has had on my older boys.
> I don't know that my husband and I have willingly relaxed our expectations at
> home as much as we are exhausted from the daily battle to retain our values.
> I am praying that keeping the youngest two at home and out of high school
> will allow our kids to have the freedom to dare to think for themselves. I
> have a terrible fear that even this won't matter.
> Those of you out there with teenage hser's, do you think hsing has made a
> difference?
>
> Laura
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/24/99 7:41:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, Bonknit@...
writes:
<< Those of you out there with teenage hser's, do you think hsing has made a
difference?
My oldest is 15 and it has made a HUGE difference. He is a much more
independent thinker than I was at his age and than other highschoolers I know
are. Also, we helped take my niece out of school a year and a half ago when
she was almost 17 and she has really changed a lot since then. At that time,
she used drugs, saw herself as a totally non-academic "dumb" (her word)
person, and had a lot of friends in gangs. Since then, she has become a
person who stays home a lot, reads things that she finds interesting, doesn't
do drugs, and has stopped hanging out with her gang friends because she just
feels like she doesn't relate to them very well now. She's in her last year
of unschooling high school and she's actually enjoying it.
A lot of our relatives were ready to write her off and when she first
stayed with us, I would sometimes wonder if it was too late, but she proved
everyone wrong. She is still finding her way in life but I believe she has a
much better chance for happiness now.
I'm sure your kids are not in the deep trouble she was in so I think
their chances of becoming free independent thinkers are excellent. It is
easy to have doubts and I've had many of them myself over the years (and many
more to come, I'm sure) but just let the time go by, do the best you can, and
I know you'll come to a point where you realize how far you've all come.
Take care...
Lucy in Calif.
writes:
<< Those of you out there with teenage hser's, do you think hsing has made a
difference?
>>Laura,
My oldest is 15 and it has made a HUGE difference. He is a much more
independent thinker than I was at his age and than other highschoolers I know
are. Also, we helped take my niece out of school a year and a half ago when
she was almost 17 and she has really changed a lot since then. At that time,
she used drugs, saw herself as a totally non-academic "dumb" (her word)
person, and had a lot of friends in gangs. Since then, she has become a
person who stays home a lot, reads things that she finds interesting, doesn't
do drugs, and has stopped hanging out with her gang friends because she just
feels like she doesn't relate to them very well now. She's in her last year
of unschooling high school and she's actually enjoying it.
A lot of our relatives were ready to write her off and when she first
stayed with us, I would sometimes wonder if it was too late, but she proved
everyone wrong. She is still finding her way in life but I believe she has a
much better chance for happiness now.
I'm sure your kids are not in the deep trouble she was in so I think
their chances of becoming free independent thinkers are excellent. It is
easy to have doubts and I've had many of them myself over the years (and many
more to come, I'm sure) but just let the time go by, do the best you can, and
I know you'll come to a point where you realize how far you've all come.
Take care...
Lucy in Calif.
A. Yates
Lucy,
Heres a big hug to you for helping your niece to find herself!!!
Ann
Heres a big hug to you for helping your niece to find herself!!!
Ann
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/24/99 12:45:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< So spare no expense. Do what it takes. Challenge those assumptions that
keep
things the same....employment, location, "friends in the neighborhood",
whatever
keeps a person from exercising the freedom that they still have.
I don't know if I am on topic or not any more. >>
Well, if your not on topic I'll be off with you. This is a subject near
and dear to my heart at the moment. I wrote earlier that my dh had agreed to
let me take an extended vacation, possibly in Fla. since I have a friend down
there. We had discussed the possibility of pulling the 16yro out of school to
go. Florida mainly because I'm not sure much else would tempt him to leave
all behind. I feel this desperate to remove him from what I consider a
depressing, hopeless school environment. He won't willingly homeschool but I
had hoped I could get him to agree to American school or something so he
would know he could possible go back if he wanted next fall.
My hope is that he would get beyond that though. He doesn't need many
more credits for a diploma. (we're talking diploma not an education, he is
NOT being educated at present in ps, just warehoused). I know this is a long
shot but I really don't know what else to do.
Not even sure this is doable, dh worries that something will happen to us
and I would worry too in his place. I would call this forced helplessness.
I am very glad for your post. I needed the encouragement to believe that
I can still possibly do something. Where do I find more info about the
workshop you attended? Has he wrote a book?
Sorry so long.
Laura
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< So spare no expense. Do what it takes. Challenge those assumptions that
keep
things the same....employment, location, "friends in the neighborhood",
whatever
keeps a person from exercising the freedom that they still have.
I don't know if I am on topic or not any more. >>
Well, if your not on topic I'll be off with you. This is a subject near
and dear to my heart at the moment. I wrote earlier that my dh had agreed to
let me take an extended vacation, possibly in Fla. since I have a friend down
there. We had discussed the possibility of pulling the 16yro out of school to
go. Florida mainly because I'm not sure much else would tempt him to leave
all behind. I feel this desperate to remove him from what I consider a
depressing, hopeless school environment. He won't willingly homeschool but I
had hoped I could get him to agree to American school or something so he
would know he could possible go back if he wanted next fall.
My hope is that he would get beyond that though. He doesn't need many
more credits for a diploma. (we're talking diploma not an education, he is
NOT being educated at present in ps, just warehoused). I know this is a long
shot but I really don't know what else to do.
Not even sure this is doable, dh worries that something will happen to us
and I would worry too in his place. I would call this forced helplessness.
I am very glad for your post. I needed the encouragement to believe that
I can still possibly do something. Where do I find more info about the
workshop you attended? Has he wrote a book?
Sorry so long.
Laura
sara woodall
> Those of you out there with teenage hser's, do you think hsing has made aFor my son, I think it has, but it's not possible to know for sure
> difference?
>
> Laura
>
>
>
because there's no "control" son in this unschooling venture. He's
always been an observer and thinker, never one to rush into the latest
craze, and I feel really fortunate. He's 15, and in his 7th year of
h'schooling.
Sara
Susan and Theodore
----- Original Message -----
From: <LASaliger@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] "Parents' Top Goal: Raising Thinkers"
> A lot of our relatives were ready to write her off and when she first
> stayed with us, I would sometimes wonder if it was too late, but she
proved
> everyone wrong.
> Lucy in Calif.
> ......That is so truly wonderful of you!!!
Many hugs for you to "save" this child!!
thanks for making our world (and hers) a better place!
Susan
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
Lisa Breger
Joel,
Can you please elaborate on what you mean when you say that "separation,
time out, and consequences result in emotional desensitivity"?
I have three children, ages 11, 7, 4, and one on the way. I always thought
I was ahead of the game by not spanking my children, but instead talking
with them a lot about and modeling what behavior was expected. I think I
might be able to understand how "time out" can be damaging, but I cannot
fathom how consequences can be detrimental, other than overuse, and as I am
sometimes guilty of, using a consequence as a punishment even while calling
it a consequence.
How can we possibly raise our children to be responsible adults without
offering them some consequences for their behavior? How can we teach our
children without relying on their need to please us? I never before
considered that manipulative. But something about your statements struck
me, so I assume I must feel I can do a better job than I am currently doing.
I would love to hear more details on this subject.
I have been intrigued by so much of what I have read since joining this list
about two weeks ago.
By way of introduction, we have always homeschooled, but this is the first
year that I have considered unschooling. My children are greatly enjoying
the varied choices available to them with the extra time afforded by
skipping the "busy work" I felt compelled to give them up until this point.
We are not true unschoolers yet, but I am comfortable with the changes I
have made so far!
Happy Thanksgiving!
Lisa
Can you please elaborate on what you mean when you say that "separation,
time out, and consequences result in emotional desensitivity"?
I have three children, ages 11, 7, 4, and one on the way. I always thought
I was ahead of the game by not spanking my children, but instead talking
with them a lot about and modeling what behavior was expected. I think I
might be able to understand how "time out" can be damaging, but I cannot
fathom how consequences can be detrimental, other than overuse, and as I am
sometimes guilty of, using a consequence as a punishment even while calling
it a consequence.
How can we possibly raise our children to be responsible adults without
offering them some consequences for their behavior? How can we teach our
children without relying on their need to please us? I never before
considered that manipulative. But something about your statements struck
me, so I assume I must feel I can do a better job than I am currently doing.
I would love to hear more details on this subject.
I have been intrigued by so much of what I have read since joining this list
about two weeks ago.
By way of introduction, we have always homeschooled, but this is the first
year that I have considered unschooling. My children are greatly enjoying
the varied choices available to them with the extra time afforded by
skipping the "busy work" I felt compelled to give them up until this point.
We are not true unschoolers yet, but I am comfortable with the changes I
have made so far!
Happy Thanksgiving!
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] "Parents' Top Goal: Raising Thinkers"
> From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
> Attending the Gordon Neufeld parenting course has reinforced many
observations we
> have had about children generally. He is absolutely intense about the
need for
> restricting peer interaction especially at younger ages but absolutely at
older
> ages too if need be.
>
> He describes the process of "wooing" children who have drifted from their
> parents. He took his adolescent daughter to a geographically isolated
"favorite"
> place, made sure the TV was broken, and lived with her bitter complaints
of
> boredom for about three days before he was able to reconnect with her.
They
> reestablished the connection they had when she was a child and have never
allowed
> it to be broken again. She is 27 now, studying music in Salzburg and
still has a
> "special" time with her father once a week by phone.
>
> Gordon believes that even with adolescents there is a need to restrict
peer
> interaction. He believes in taking a proactive stance of organizing
activity for
> families which brings them together.
>
> It is of course complicated when the children in question are "defended".
> Meaning that they have hardened, lost their sensitivities and resist
attachment
> driven relationships (except for the primarily sterile substitutes they
have
> found with peers).
>
> I think if I found myself with teenagers who were being absorbed by peer
culture
> I would do whatever was necessary to break the cycle. This would include
moving
> if that is what it took. Spending lots of time with them is a key. If
they are
> peer identified this of course is the last thing they want to do. It has
to be a
> process of wooing with the velvet glove being foremost with iron resolve
beneath
> but not a fist. If I am not mangling metaphors too badly.
>
> Defendedness occurs when attachment has been used as a weapon to
manipulate
> behaviour. Separation, time-outs, "consequences" these result in
emotional
> desensitivty and take a lot of effort to undo.
>
> Children follow the lead of their parents naturally if parents understand
the
> developmental needs of their children. Most people are terribly confused.
>
> People have come to accept "typical" behaviour as "normal" which is
absolutely
> not the case.
>
> Much of this language reflects Gordon Neufeld's approach. For us it is
again
> reinforcement for that which we hold true already.
>
> Being proactive and defining your families "life" to reflect your values
is
> crucial. It must be done with sensitivity and respect but with
insistence.
>
> The "wooing" which comes automatically with infants cannot be abandoned
with
> older children. I have first hand experienced this change in my own
> relationships with my children. If I bring the same 'focus' to bear with
my six
> and ten year olds that I had when they were babies we do great. It is a
kind of
> enthusiasm and willingness to accommodate their needs, listen to them with
> enormous sensitivity and spend lots of voluntary time with them.
>
> People are fooled by the superficial independence of peer identified
children.
> They have less "work" as parents because their kids seem to "take care" of
> themselves. It is, of course, a lie. They don't take care of themselves
they
> try to meet their attachment needs with peers which is an empty pursuit
which
> leaves them hungry and addicted to peer interaction.
>
> Of course the economic smoke and mirrors we live in doesn't help. The
fact that
> it now takes two incomes to maintain what we have come to expect as a
normal
> lifestyle further erodes home life. We are told we live in boom times but
North
> Americans work more hours than any industrialized country. We are blind
to the
> enormous decline in our standard of living as we revel in the booming
economy.
> The rich continue to become richer, democracy wilts, and in the midst of
this
> people try to have a "home". It is not a wonder that it is hard to create
a home
> in the midst of intellectual and ethical poverty.
>
> So spare no expense. Do what it takes. Challenge those assumptions that
keep
> things the same....employment, location, "friends in the neighborhood",
whatever
> keeps a person from exercising the freedom that they still have.
>
> I don't know if I am on topic or not any more.
>
> Bonknit@... wrote:
>
> > From: Bonknit@...
> >
> > In a message dated 11/24/99 9:01:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > andersen@... writes:
> >
> > << Are there any societal forces which hamper the development of
independent
> > thinking? >>
> >
> > I am interested in all the questions you resented but this relates
to one
> > I've been worrying over.
> > I absolutely detest the effect the peer culture has had on my older
boys.
> > I don't know that my husband and I have willingly relaxed our
expectations at
> > home as much as we are exhausted from the daily battle to retain our
values.
> > I am praying that keeping the youngest two at home and out of high
school
> > will allow our kids to have the freedom to dare to think for themselves.
I
> > have a terrible fear that even this won't matter.
> > Those of you out there with teenage hser's, do you think hsing has
made a
> > difference?
> >
> > Laura
>
> best wishes
> Joel
>
> For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
> http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
>
> All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
> Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
Joel Hawthorne
Lisa,
It sounds to me like you are on the right track to me but I will expand on what
I think Gordon Neufeld is talking about it with the proviso that I could be off
base and not know it.
He believes that we have the power and influence because of instinctual
attachment on the part of our children. He believes that if attachment needs
are used to manipulate behaviour it causes children to experience enormous
anxiety which they of necessity desensitize themselves to feeling. Examples
would be separation. "You go to your room." I don't want to see you around here
until..... If you go on behaving that way I am just going to ...... Don't talk
to me..... Things which involve withdrawal of affection. He is of course
advocating something hard to do namely don't let your emotions get the better of
you. He also talks of the necessity for lots of proximity, generously given
time, expressions of delight in our children not when they are "being good' or
when they accomplish something but when they are just being.
It is the punitive edge of "consequences" to which I believe he is referring.
If there are natural consequences to someone's behaviour and they are able to
handle the consequences it is fine. You don't let the 18 month old tumble down
the hillside to learn about the consequences of going too far from their
parents.
You of course are "way ahead" by not spanking and talking lots and modeling what
you believe.
As for teaching our children we do in fact rely on their desire to please us but
always with the utmost care, respect and thoughtfulness. We have enormous power
and if we use it to manipulate our kids behaviour simply to get our way we will
lose it.
People use to (and probably many still do) use threats of fearful things to get
behaviour they want from their children. The bogeyman et. al. were used in many
circles as what was considered a valid form of childrearing. You scared the
children into obedience. Of course eventually they weren't scared anymore and
told you to bugger off not to mention feeling more than a little angry and at
being lied to and frightened.
Gordon Neufeld is really quite big on adults "taking charge". More than I am
comfortable with but I understand his rationale. He believes that we must
engage our children's attachment needs and meet them or they will attach to
others (usually peers) and will be lost to us.
He maintains that emergent behaviours (independence and individuality) come in
their own sweet time and we are generally in much too great of a rush for such
things. We value a great deal of superficial sociability in the place of real
intimacy and connectedness. Peer interaction comes naturally at its own pace
and always within the context of a solid home base never as a substitute.
There is so much material that has been covered I am hard pressed to do it
justice. I just know that bunches of it are of great use to me.
I will continue try and get the stuff onto a web site and give people access to
it that way. It provides a much needed antidote to so much patently crazy stuff
being suggested for parents.
Most of the folks on this list seem to have already come to grips with many of
these concepts and know that to simply rely on experts instead of their own gut
feelings is an iffy proposition at best.
I am tired and have to go to work early so I must close though I have not said
half of what I mean.
Lisa Breger wrote:
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
It sounds to me like you are on the right track to me but I will expand on what
I think Gordon Neufeld is talking about it with the proviso that I could be off
base and not know it.
He believes that we have the power and influence because of instinctual
attachment on the part of our children. He believes that if attachment needs
are used to manipulate behaviour it causes children to experience enormous
anxiety which they of necessity desensitize themselves to feeling. Examples
would be separation. "You go to your room." I don't want to see you around here
until..... If you go on behaving that way I am just going to ...... Don't talk
to me..... Things which involve withdrawal of affection. He is of course
advocating something hard to do namely don't let your emotions get the better of
you. He also talks of the necessity for lots of proximity, generously given
time, expressions of delight in our children not when they are "being good' or
when they accomplish something but when they are just being.
It is the punitive edge of "consequences" to which I believe he is referring.
If there are natural consequences to someone's behaviour and they are able to
handle the consequences it is fine. You don't let the 18 month old tumble down
the hillside to learn about the consequences of going too far from their
parents.
You of course are "way ahead" by not spanking and talking lots and modeling what
you believe.
As for teaching our children we do in fact rely on their desire to please us but
always with the utmost care, respect and thoughtfulness. We have enormous power
and if we use it to manipulate our kids behaviour simply to get our way we will
lose it.
People use to (and probably many still do) use threats of fearful things to get
behaviour they want from their children. The bogeyman et. al. were used in many
circles as what was considered a valid form of childrearing. You scared the
children into obedience. Of course eventually they weren't scared anymore and
told you to bugger off not to mention feeling more than a little angry and at
being lied to and frightened.
Gordon Neufeld is really quite big on adults "taking charge". More than I am
comfortable with but I understand his rationale. He believes that we must
engage our children's attachment needs and meet them or they will attach to
others (usually peers) and will be lost to us.
He maintains that emergent behaviours (independence and individuality) come in
their own sweet time and we are generally in much too great of a rush for such
things. We value a great deal of superficial sociability in the place of real
intimacy and connectedness. Peer interaction comes naturally at its own pace
and always within the context of a solid home base never as a substitute.
There is so much material that has been covered I am hard pressed to do it
justice. I just know that bunches of it are of great use to me.
I will continue try and get the stuff onto a web site and give people access to
it that way. It provides a much needed antidote to so much patently crazy stuff
being suggested for parents.
Most of the folks on this list seem to have already come to grips with many of
these concepts and know that to simply rely on experts instead of their own gut
feelings is an iffy proposition at best.
I am tired and have to go to work early so I must close though I have not said
half of what I mean.
Lisa Breger wrote:
> From: "Lisa Breger" <lisa@...>--
>
> Joel,
>
> Can you please elaborate on what you mean when you say that "separation,
> time out, and consequences result in emotional desensitivity"? snip
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Lisa Breger
Thanks Joel, for the clarification. Can't wait for the website to be up and
running. It is much nicer to have a professional back up what we already
do as parents, especially when we are taking an uncharted course, rather
than follow the so called "parenting experts".
Lisa
running. It is much nicer to have a professional back up what we already
do as parents, especially when we are taking an uncharted course, rather
than follow the so called "parenting experts".
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] "Parents' Top Goal: Raising Thinkers"
> From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
>
> Most of the folks on this list seem to have already come to grips with
many of
> these concepts and know that to simply rely on experts instead of their
own gut
> feelings is an iffy proposition at best.
>
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
[email protected]
Joel wrote:
As usual, I am way behind on e-mail, so I apologize for being late to take up
this thread, but I couldn't let it go.
Joel...
By "taking charge" here, do you mean Neufeld thinks parents should be the one
to set the agenda...to set the stage, so to speak? Or are you talking about
the adult taking the responsibility to "be there" as much as possible? Or
maybe neither of those two things. If you don't mind, I would love you to
clarify this.
<< Gordon Neufeld is really quite big on adults "taking charge". More than I
am
comfortable with but I understand his rationale. >>
You also wrote:
<< He believes that we must
engage our children's attachment needs and meet them or they will attach to
others (usually peers) and will be lost to us. >>
This makes a whole lot of sense to me because I see it in my own life. I
still, at age 38, am seeking approval and acceptance from my mother that I
desperately want, and feel like I have to go everywhere else to get it. And
this feeling of longing to be noticed is very implanted in me.
I was involved in many dangerous activities as a college student and older
teen and looking back, all those things scream out...PAY ATTENTION.
Unfortunately, I was seeking attention from the wrong people.
Sorry, didn't mean to get off on such an self-analytical bent, but these
theories fascinate me. It's like you're putting into words, things that I've
always intuited!
Thanks again, Joel!
Carol from WI
As usual, I am way behind on e-mail, so I apologize for being late to take up
this thread, but I couldn't let it go.
Joel...
By "taking charge" here, do you mean Neufeld thinks parents should be the one
to set the agenda...to set the stage, so to speak? Or are you talking about
the adult taking the responsibility to "be there" as much as possible? Or
maybe neither of those two things. If you don't mind, I would love you to
clarify this.
<< Gordon Neufeld is really quite big on adults "taking charge". More than I
am
comfortable with but I understand his rationale. >>
You also wrote:
<< He believes that we must
engage our children's attachment needs and meet them or they will attach to
others (usually peers) and will be lost to us. >>
This makes a whole lot of sense to me because I see it in my own life. I
still, at age 38, am seeking approval and acceptance from my mother that I
desperately want, and feel like I have to go everywhere else to get it. And
this feeling of longing to be noticed is very implanted in me.
I was involved in many dangerous activities as a college student and older
teen and looking back, all those things scream out...PAY ATTENTION.
Unfortunately, I was seeking attention from the wrong people.
Sorry, didn't mean to get off on such an self-analytical bent, but these
theories fascinate me. It's like you're putting into words, things that I've
always intuited!
Thanks again, Joel!
Carol from WI
Joel Hawthorne
I think that Neufeld is referring both to setting agendas, defining things and
being there. You really have a much harder time doing the defining sorts of
things if you are not there more often than not. He returns to this theme quite
a bit. It really also has to do with being proactive towards children. Not just
reacting to what they do but to their "just being". It involves making a big
deal over them and engaging them. We do this automatically with babies but have
more trouble doing it as they get older. Just remember that feeling you have
towards babies.... focus, total wonderment, etc. and find it with your kids when
they are older. That seems to be the heart of it.
He talks about "passing the attachment baton" when leaving your kids in the care
of someone else. By this he means introductions and orientation. e.g. This Betty
who is going to be looking after you. Betty this is Olivia who you will be
looking after. Olivia, Betty will be showing you what you need to do here and if
you have any questions you will ask Betty. Words to that effect. It requires
the adult caregiver to make an effort to get to know the child and pay direct
attention to that child. Some people do this well and intuitively others are
thick as bricks and just don't get it. If it is done successfully the child has
much less anxiety and knows who to orient themselves around.
It is so hard to do this stuff justice. We are going to session #8 tomorrow
(tonight really). That will make 16 hours of material and he is always behind
where he wants to be. Really what he is talking about could be a degree program
as far as I can tell.
Our experience in this class is very much one of having someone put into words
and a theoretical model much of which we know intuitively. It is nice to have
"academic" and "professional" support for what we know. Though at this point in
our lives we don't really care what the experts think because they are so
confused on so many issues. The fact that there are a few who aren't is nice but
really just frosting on the cake.
Got to go.
Burkfamily@... wrote:
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
being there. You really have a much harder time doing the defining sorts of
things if you are not there more often than not. He returns to this theme quite
a bit. It really also has to do with being proactive towards children. Not just
reacting to what they do but to their "just being". It involves making a big
deal over them and engaging them. We do this automatically with babies but have
more trouble doing it as they get older. Just remember that feeling you have
towards babies.... focus, total wonderment, etc. and find it with your kids when
they are older. That seems to be the heart of it.
He talks about "passing the attachment baton" when leaving your kids in the care
of someone else. By this he means introductions and orientation. e.g. This Betty
who is going to be looking after you. Betty this is Olivia who you will be
looking after. Olivia, Betty will be showing you what you need to do here and if
you have any questions you will ask Betty. Words to that effect. It requires
the adult caregiver to make an effort to get to know the child and pay direct
attention to that child. Some people do this well and intuitively others are
thick as bricks and just don't get it. If it is done successfully the child has
much less anxiety and knows who to orient themselves around.
It is so hard to do this stuff justice. We are going to session #8 tomorrow
(tonight really). That will make 16 hours of material and he is always behind
where he wants to be. Really what he is talking about could be a degree program
as far as I can tell.
Our experience in this class is very much one of having someone put into words
and a theoretical model much of which we know intuitively. It is nice to have
"academic" and "professional" support for what we know. Though at this point in
our lives we don't really care what the experts think because they are so
confused on so many issues. The fact that there are a few who aren't is nice but
really just frosting on the cake.
Got to go.
Burkfamily@... wrote:
> As usual, I am way behind on e-mail, so I apologize for being late to take upbest wishes
> this thread, but I couldn't let it go.
>
> Joel...
> By "taking charge" here, do you mean Neufeld thinks parents should be the one
> to set the agenda...to set the stage, so to speak? Or are you talking about
> the adult taking the responsibility to "be there" as much as possible? Or
> maybe neither of those two things. If you don't mind, I would love you to
> clarify this.
>
> snip.... these
> theories fascinate me. It's like you're putting into words, things that I've
> always intuited!
> Thanks again, Joel!
> Carol from WI
>
> --
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/