[email protected]

** Are there moms here that have never spanked and had great results? And
moms that started out spanking and stopped by learning better ways?**

My kids are really spread out in age. 6 1/2 years between the first and
second, then another 7 1/2 years before the third and fourth were born (of
course, those two are only 13 minutes apart so I guess that evens things out.
<gg> ) I had a lot of time to learn from my mistakes, time to breathe and
think before another child hit the same stage/age/behaviour.

My oldest was spanked. Designated punishments, restrictions, groundings,
"logical consequences", probably the whole basketful of standard american
parenting practices. The second was spanked once. She'll never forget it,
though both she and I can no longer remember what it was for. The 10yos have
never been spanked. My youngest son was horrified when he recently learned
what spanking is - I guess he's been kind of sheltered.

Great results? That second child, who had one regretted spanking, is 17 now.
I don't often brag about her online because it embarasses her when she finds
out, but... I've had moms tell me that they're hoping their daughters grow up
to be like her. She's kind, courteous, dependable, friendly, responsible, and
a genuinely nice person. What more could I ask for?

Deborah in IL

Mary Bianco

>From: dacunefare@...

<<Great results? That second child, who had one regretted spanking, is 17
now. I don't often brag about her online because it embarasses her when she
finds out, but... I've had moms tell me that they're hoping their daughters
grow up to be like her. She's kind, courteous, dependable, friendly,
responsible, and a genuinely nice person. What more could I ask for?>>


If this is too personal, I understand. I was wondering how the first born is
doing now? Do you see any major differences because of how that child was
raised as far as the spankings and restrictions and all?

Mary B


_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls!�Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

[email protected]

I have a 5 yr. old son who gets spanked when he is disobedient. As a
Christian, I firmly believe in spanking and it truly works for us. He is not
allowed to test us...we don't do the "1,2,3" thing. We believe that if he is
allowed to get away with something even once...like with "come here please.
I said, come here please. If you don't come here you will get a time out."
We don't repeat ourselves...and if we have to...then he gets a spanking.
People can't believe it when I ask him to do something and he just says "ok
Mom". He has just learned and respects that we are his parents and that in
some cases if he doesn't listen the FIRST time...it could lead to harm.
(getting hit by a car, for example). Reb Bradley has a book out called,
"Child Training Tips". That is great and there is also a parenting video
series that deal with the "point of disobedience" type of discipline.
And...you may spank a few times at the beginning..as they adjust...then you
find it's rare.

That's how we discipline and it works great. I just believe that he...and
our 1 1/2 yr. old and 3 mth. old...need to be raised to know we are in
charge...and they need to be able to obey us...so that as adults...it is
easier for them to obey God's word.

As far as swearing....we also don't swear...and it would abslolutely NOT be
tolerated...but of course...just handled the same way. If he is aware that
he is not supposed to do it...he'd get a spanking. Of course...we don't
spank if he just plain did not know he wasn't supposed to do something...but
with the obvious...we do.

:-) Bridget


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Are you for real or are you just trying to stir things up?

Cherry in GA




I have a 5 yr. old son who gets spanked when he is disobedient. As a
Christian, I firmly believe in spanking and it truly works for us. He is not
allowed to test us...we don't do the "1,2,3" thing. We believe that if he is
allowed to get away with something even once...like with "come here please.
I said, come here please. If you don't come here you will get a time out."
We don't repeat ourselves...and if we have to...then he gets a spanking.

Jeff & Kate Kerr

***As far as swearing....we also don't swear...and it would abslolutely
NOT be
tolerated...but of course...just handled the same way. If he is aware
that
he is not supposed to do it...he'd get a spanking. Of course...we don't

spank if he just plain did not know he wasn't supposed to do
something...but
with the obvious...we do.***


Me showing my ignorance again.

Swearing is not ok, but spanking is??!!

How f*cking ridiculous it that?

Kate

Valerie

What is your definition of unschooling?
What is your definition of violence towards children?

Oh nevermind. This post gave me cold chills and I don't want to read
anything else you have to say. You are obviously raising your
children with fear tactics. It's easy to get someone to be obedient
when you are larger and you'll hit them if they don't. Your son
doesn't respect you any more than you respect him. He fears you and
your unfair wrath. I find your parenting style offensive and one of
the main causes of overcrowded prisons. I'm so baffled as to how you
think hitting a child shows him love, respect or anything to do with
trust.

Does your husband also hit you? Is all hitting in your home in the
name of God? Bet that pisses God off.. oops.. makes Him angry.

Why are you on an unschooling list? Or were you planted here to
start a fight?

I keep getting a picture of your children in chains and you and your
husband holding whips. Figuratively...it's true.

love, Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., TroyBridgetM@a... wrote:
> I have a 5 yr. old son who gets spanked when he is disobedient.
As a
> Christian, I firmly believe in spanking and it truly works for
us. He is not
> allowed to test us...we don't do the "1,2,3" thing. We believe
that if he is
> allowed to get away with something even once...like with "come
here please.
> I said, come here please. If you don't come here you will get a
time out."
> We don't repeat ourselves...and if we have to...then he gets a
spanking.
> People can't believe it when I ask him to do something and he just
says "ok
> Mom". He has just learned and respects that we are his parents
and that in
> some cases if he doesn't listen the FIRST time...it could lead to
harm.
> (getting hit by a car, for example). Reb Bradley has a book out
called,
> "Child Training Tips". That is great and there is also a
parenting video
> series that deal with the "point of disobedience" type of
discipline.
> And...you may spank a few times at the beginning..as they
adjust...then you
> find it's rare.
>
> That's how we discipline and it works great. I just believe that
he...and
> our 1 1/2 yr. old and 3 mth. old...need to be raised to know we
are in
> charge...and they need to be able to obey us...so that as
adults...it is
> easier for them to obey God's word.
>
> As far as swearing....we also don't swear...and it would
abslolutely NOT be
> tolerated...but of course...just handled the same way. If he is
aware that
> he is not supposed to do it...he'd get a spanking. Of course...we
don't
> spank if he just plain did not know he wasn't supposed to do
something...but
> with the obvious...we do.
>
> :-) Bridget
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 15:16 10/25/02 -0400, Cherry in GA wrote:
>Are you for real or are you just trying to stir things up?
>
>Cherry in GA

Yeah, Cherry, as if things *needed* stirring up! This is about as bizarre
and scary a post as I have _ever_ laid my eyes on. My heart just breaks
for those three kids. I'm gonna go hug and kiss my little one right now!

Love and peace,

Marji

>>I have a 5 yr. old son who gets spanked when he is disobedient. As a
>>Christian, I firmly believe in spanking and it truly works for us. He is not
>>allowed to test us...we don't do the "1,2,3" thing. We believe that if he is
>>allowed to get away with something even once...like with "come here please.
>>I said, come here please. If you don't come here you will get a time out."
>>We don't repeat ourselves...and if we have to...then he gets a spanking.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/02 1:33:58 PM, valfitz@... writes:

<< He has just learned and respects that we are his parents
and that in some cases if he doesn't listen the FIRST time...it could lead
to
harm. (getting hit by a car, for example). >>

But it's a guaranteed self-fulfilling prophecy that even if he doesn't get
hit by a car, his ignoring you will lead to harm, because you hit him.

Valerie

valfitz didn't say that.. I swear!!!! (I cuss too) ;-)

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/25/02 1:33:58 PM, valfitz@y... writes:
>
> << He has just learned and respects that we are his parents
> and that in some cases if he doesn't listen the FIRST time...it
could lead
> to
> harm. (getting hit by a car, for example). >>
>
> But it's a guaranteed self-fulfilling prophecy that even if he
doesn't get
> hit by a car, his ignoring you will lead to harm, because you hit
him.

Mary Bianco

>From: TroyBridgetM@...

<<I have a 5 yr. old son who gets spanked when he is disobedient. As a
Christian, I firmly believe in spanking and it truly works for us. He is
not allowed to test us...we don't do the "1,2,3" thing. We believe that if
he is allowed to get away with something even once...like with "come here
please. I said, come here please. If you don't come here you will get a
time out." We don't repeat ourselves...and if we have to...then he gets a
spanking. People can't believe it when I ask him to do something and he just
says "ok Mom". He has just learned and respects that we are his parents and
that in some cases if he doesn't listen the FIRST time...it could lead to
harm. (getting hit by a car, for example). Reb Bradley has a book out
called, "Child Training Tips". That is great and there is also a parenting
video series that deal with the "point of disobedience" type of discipline.
And...you may spank a few times at the beginning..as they adjust...then you
find it's rare.

That's how we discipline and it works great. I just believe that he...and
our 1 1/2 yr. old and 3 mth. old...need to be raised to know we are in
charge...and they need to be able to obey us...so that as adults...it is
easier for them to obey God's word.>>


Well you said it yourself in a contradiction. Your son that gets spanked
hasn't learned to respect you, he's learned that if he doesn't listen, he
gets hurt. And yes it does hurt. Have you not read anything of what we who
have been spanked and had spanked and saw what happens to our kids as a
result have said???

When do your poor kids get to have any kind of mind of their own? What are
you running, a platoon or a family? You are in charge?? In charge of making
kids be submissive to your ways?

I'm really to sick to say anymore.

Mary B


_________________________________________________________________
Broadband?�Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/02 2:18:30 PM Central Daylight Time,
savagewilson@... writes:

> Are you for real or are you just trying to stir things up?
>
> Cherry in GA
>

Oh, I think she is very much for real! That is why her child comes to her
without question.

~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/02 12:45:34 PM, TroyBridgetM@... writes:

<< He is not allowed to test us... >>

You can't keep him any longer than he's willing to be there. Two of my
friends killed themselves, one at 14, one at 15. Many people I've known have
run away. They would rather sleep in an alley in a scary city than stay with
their overbearing parents.

Don't think you can control another person's thoughts.

If you ruin this relationship it will be gone, and your son CAN get out of
it.

<<People can't believe it when I ask him to do something and he just says "ok
Mom". .>>

Huh. My kids do that and they never have to cry themselves to sleep.

<<I have a 5 yr. old son...
<<and
our 1 1/2 yr. old and 3 mth. old>>

Are you unschoolers?
Were you invited in here to defend spanking?

Sandra

kayb85

This post gave me cold chills and I don't want to read
> anything else you have to say

I think it's very sad that you would be so rude to a newcomer on the
list. I think it's sad that you would be intolerant of other
people's parenting practices. Even if it does give you cold chills,
there are much nicer ways to talk to people you disagree with. You
catch more flies with honey...

I don't think it's necessarily true that one can't be an unschooler
AND choose to spank. I would think that totally unschooling would
usually lead to a non-spanking position, but that's just my guess.
Not everyone gets there at the same time.

If a spanker would say to a non-spanker, "I don't want to read
anything else you have to say", they would get slammed big time.

And I've had two people tell me that my posts repulsed them, just
because I support parental rights. If I told someone who doesn't
believe in parental rights that their posts repulsed me, I would get
slammed big time.

Is it ok to be verbally mean to people because they have a different
point of view? That's not good discussion and it's not good
debating.

As far as who is disrupting the list, I don't think it's the people
who are brave enough to stick up for their right to discipline their
children according to their own consciences, I think it's the handful
of people who reply with cold meanness.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/02 5:47:42 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< You catch more flies with honey... >>

I don't think she wanted to catch such a person.

<<I don't think it's necessarily true that one can't be an unschooler
AND choose to spank.>>

Possibly so.
It's not worth us encouraging people to be half-assed unschoolers, though.

<<Not everyone gets there at the same time. >>

We have no reason to believe that the writer of the totally pro-spanking post
is an unschooler, or is even interested in unschooling. Unless I missed
reading something interesting, there was nothing before the advertisement for
spanking. I suspect, from experience, that she was invited here by someone
who is pro spanking, she came and did her duty, and she'll be gone when the
spanking debate is gone.

It won't hurt my feelings if I'm wrong.

<<If a spanker would say to a non-spanker, "I don't want to read
anything else you have to say", they would get slammed big time. >>

On this list? There are entire churches, homeschooling conferences,
homeschooling support groups, umbrella groups and such which are TOTALLY
based on not wanting to read anything that doesn't match the narrow set of
beliefs they have chosen to call "THE WHOLE TRUTH."

Any homeschooling group with a statement of faith does not want to read what
anyone else has to say.

Any conference that starts with a prayer and the main speaker's point is that
husbands MUST take back control of their families and work with other
Christians to restore America to her Christian roots does NOT want their
attendees reading anything non-spankers have to say.

Two homeschooling speakers I know have been censured and walked out on for
saying what they always say, but they were INVITED to Christian conferences,
and then mistreated. When the GWS booth was being set up (I think it was in
North Carolina) a few years back. organizers went through the books and
forbade the display or sale of three titles. Books which promoted the rights
of children were NOT allowed to be on display.

<<If a spanker would say to a non-spanker, "I don't want to read
anything else you have to say", they would get slammed big time.
>>

I'll say this again: Most of the people who were Christian by birth and were
spanked AND who now have chosen not to spank already KNOW the lame arguments
for spanking. WE KNOW THAT. We have lived in that. Now we have chosen a
different way, with our eyes and hearts wide open.

Those who have never considered NOT spanking only know one way.

Unschoolers could easily say we don't want to read any more of the pro-school
shaming threats of teachers and teachers' unions about homeschooling. WE
KNOW about school. We also know about homeschooling. In a head to head
debate, those who have homeschooled know more about homeschooling than those
who wouldn't even consider it at all, whether teachers or parents.

So here we have people who know about spanking AND know about other ways.
We don't need to be preached to by people who do NOT know about both ways.

<<And I've had two people tell me that my posts repulsed them, just
because I support parental rights. If I told someone who doesn't
believe in parental rights that their posts repulsed me, I would get
slammed big time. >>

There are places to go for people who want to be part of a parental rights
and powers and duties and dedication rally. Lots of them.

If some of us went to a Christian discipline and obedience discussion list or
forum and said "You people are blind to the violence you're teaching," they
would throw us out. Plain and simple. OUT.

<<Is it ok to be verbally mean to people because they have a different
point of view? That's not good discussion and it's not good
debating. >>

If someone came here just to defend spanking, that's disruption.

<<As far as who is disrupting the list, I don't think it's the people
who are brave enough to stick up for their right to discipline their
children according to their own consciences, I think it's the handful
of people who reply with cold meanness.
>>

I don't think it's mean to tell people their children are being harmed by
their discipline, or that the parents should try to learn better ways to
interact with children they purport to lovel.

Abram Maslow's heirarchy of needs, which I've never heard disputed by anyone
in any field, says before children can learn they need to feel safe. The
fear of a whippin' is not safety.

It would be a huge kindness to the children of spanking parents if ANYONE
could persuade the parents to consider another course of action.

It would be cold meanness if we knew a better way and didn't say so.

It would be list destruction if we just let all kinds of anti-unschooling
suggestions sit there without pointing out the disadvantages of them where
unschooling is concerned.

Sandra

Peggy

Sheila wrote:

> And I've had two people tell me that my posts repulsed them, just
> because I support parental rights. If I told someone who doesn't
> believe in parental rights that their posts repulsed me, I would get
> slammed big time.


I think this is sort of like in the movie Bladerunner -- where the guy asks a
series of questions seeking to sort out non-human replicants from humans. One
of the questions is about a leather purse, "What do you do if someone gives
you one?" The correct answer, for the test, is to turn it down and report the
person to the authorities, for in the future mostly all animals except human
are extinct. In other words, leather is abhorrent and the word has a different
frame of reference.

When parental rights translates down to those who choose to physically harm
their children, and many here have been harmed and damaged by those "rights",
nice words don't seem as important as not hiding ugliness behind pretty words.
They didn't say *you* repulsed them, but that your words did. Those words
might mean things to them that you can't even imagine. Why not try? Why not
put yourself in the shoes of those who live every day of their life aware of
the pain that shaped them into what they are now? Perhaps repulse won't like
seem such an awful word then, it might even seem barely adequate.

Peggy

joanna514

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:
>
> This post gave me cold chills and I don't want to read
> > anything else you have to say
>
> I think it's very sad that you would be so rude to a newcomer on
the
> list. I think it's sad that you would be intolerant of other
> people's parenting practices. Even if it does give you cold
chills,
> there are much nicer ways to talk to people you disagree with. You
> catch more flies with honey...
>
>

I'm intolerant of lots of things and when it comes to children, my
emotions usually run higher.
All I could feel was pitty for that 5yo little boy.
What a shame someone would feel the right to treat someone else that
way.
The poster claimed to want him to grow to obey God, from having to
obey his parents unquestioningly all his life. Is that really
logical??
Are the parents ego so great that they would play the role of God in
their childs life!? Are they infallible (as God is suppose to be)?
How can anyone justify taking on that role?
Why would anyone want to raise a non thinking, dependant on others
wills, fear filled person?
And why on earth would anyone on this list be expected to tolerate
that behavior and thinking!?
Joanna

Valerie

First of all I find it difficult to believe that the spanker is
actually an unschooler. I'm sure it's possible, but unlikely. If so,
she has much to learn about what constitutes unschooling. I'm not
trying to catch flies. I not only disagree with her, I feel that she
is abusing her children. She's teaching her children that if they
don't do as she says, she will hit them. That's prison mentality.

I would hope that the reactions of people here on this list would
make her realize how much harm she is doing to her children by her
behavior. If we just sat nicely with our hands in our laps and
said, "Oh, it's up to you if you want to abuse your children... we
will just turn our heads and support you," then she would not get
the message that she is making a huge mistake.

A different point of view will draw no anger from me. Telling me
that you hit your child will totally baffle me and yes... cause me
to say "I don't want to hear anything else you have to say." If it
takes "cold meanness" to help her see the err of her ways, then I'm
here to help. I've physically stopped parents from hitting their
children in the mall and other public places, and I'll continue
doing so. Some have resented the interference and others have calmed
down and listened to reason, thanking me later. I'd also attempt to
stop them from hitting another adult.

love, Valerie


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:
>
> This post gave me cold chills and I don't want to read
> > anything else you have to say
>
> I think it's very sad that you would be so rude to a newcomer on
the
> list. I think it's sad that you would be intolerant of other
> people's parenting practices. Even if it does give you cold
chills,
> there are much nicer ways to talk to people you disagree with.
You
> catch more flies with honey...
>
> I don't think it's necessarily true that one can't be an
unschooler
> AND choose to spank. I would think that totally unschooling would
> usually lead to a non-spanking position, but that's just my
guess.
> Not everyone gets there at the same time.
>
> If a spanker would say to a non-spanker, "I don't want to read
> anything else you have to say", they would get slammed big time.
>
> And I've had two people tell me that my posts repulsed them, just
> because I support parental rights. If I told someone who doesn't
> believe in parental rights that their posts repulsed me, I would
get
> slammed big time.
>
> Is it ok to be verbally mean to people because they have a
different
> point of view? That's not good discussion and it's not good
> debating.
>
> As far as who is disrupting the list, I don't think it's the
people
> who are brave enough to stick up for their right to discipline
their
> children according to their own consciences, I think it's the
handful
> of people who reply with cold meanness.
>
> Sheila

[email protected]

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:47:11 -0000 "kayb85" <sheran@...> writes:
> And I've had two people tell me that my posts repulsed them, just
> because I support parental rights.

Not because you supported parental rights. Because you believed God
placed kids with their parents, so they had the right to raise them as
they "saw fit", even if you didn't agree with their methods of
punishment. Because you give God the responsibility for placing kids with
evil, messed-up people that all of us mortals can see have no business
being parents - but God apparently can't tell that people who injure
small animals and the kids they already have will most likely do evil
things to another baby, so he keeps providing them. God must be
incredibly stupid, then...

And, of course, this belief conveniently absolves you of responsibility
for not doing anything to help these kids, you can sit and watch and tell
yourself that God chose those parents so you shouldn't interfere.

You said later that you didn't advocate "abuse", wherever you draw that
line. But why not? If the same God chose those parenst for those kids,
why do you now question his judgement? You're a true believer up to
spankings with wooden spoons, but electrical cords are no longer God's
will?

Dar

Todd M.

At 08:04 PM 10/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Unless I missed reading something interesting, there was nothing before
>the advertisement for spanking.
==
She commented on Monopoly Jr. (asking for rules) on 10/22/02, and on the
breast-pump issue today.

>I suspect, from experience, that she was invited here by someone
>who is pro spanking, she came and did her duty, and she'll be gone when the
>spanking debate is gone.
==
She's been here (according to yahoogroups) since 9/19/02.

Todd

"Consciousness is... That annoying time between naps!"

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/02 9:13:17 PM, Ozarkren@... writes:

<< She's been here (according to yahoogroups) since 9/19/02. >>

Okay, then I was wrong. Sorry.

Sandra

[email protected]

**If this is too personal, I understand. I was wondering how the first born
is

doing now? Do you see any major differences because of how that child was

raised as far as the spankings and restrictions and all?**

It's not possible to say, because that isn't the only difference in how they
were raised.

The oldest went to school for 6 years, the second never, and the youngest
have always lived in an unschooling home. That alone has caused HUGE
differences in how they perceive the world and interact with it, how they
think of themselves, their interactions with other people, everything. In
addition, the oldest carries a different genetic load than the others, and
lived in a more unpredictable and unstable environment for many of his early
years. There are also huge differences in basic personality, from infancy
onward.

I can say that spanking was generally ineffective for us in changing
behaviour.

Interestingly enough, in the context of this conversation, I decided we were
going to give up spankings and school at pretty much the same time. I didn't
consider the decisions to be related to each other until much later, though.

Deborah in IL

Cathy Hilde

Oh, I think this is a horrible thing to do to a child! When I read stuff
like this it just makes my skin crawl.
I cannot believe that this type of behavior on the part of a parent wouldn't
do damage to the child. At the very least damage the relationship they would
have with their child.
Such unnecessary harm. Surley, as an adult, it cannot be that difficult to
find gentle, loving ways to raise your children.
Cathy

-----Original Message-----
From: TroyBridgetM@... [mailto:TroyBridgetM@...]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Spanking/not spanking


I have a 5 yr. old son who gets spanked when he is disobedient. As a
Christian, I firmly believe in spanking and it truly works for us. He is
not
allowed to test us...we don't do the "1,2,3" thing. We believe that if he
is
allowed to get away with something even once...like with "come here
please.
I said, come here please. If you don't come here you will get a time
out."
We don't repeat ourselves...and if we have to...then he gets a spanking.
People can't believe it when I ask him to do something and he just says
"ok
Mom". He has just learned and respects that we are his parents and that
in
some cases if he doesn't listen the FIRST time...it could lead to harm.
(getting hit by a car, for example). Reb Bradley has a book out called,
"Child Training Tips". That is great and there is also a parenting video
series that deal with the "point of disobedience" type of discipline.
And...you may spank a few times at the beginning..as they adjust...then
you
find it's rare.

That's how we discipline and it works great. I just believe that he...and
our 1 1/2 yr. old and 3 mth. old...need to be raised to know we are in
charge...and they need to be able to obey us...so that as adults...it is
easier for them to obey God's word.

As far as swearing....we also don't swear...and it would abslolutely NOT
be
tolerated...but of course...just handled the same way. If he is aware
that
he is not supposed to do it...he'd get a spanking. Of course...we don't
spank if he just plain did not know he wasn't supposed to do
something...but
with the obvious...we do.

:-) Bridget


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**
She's been here (according to yahoogroups) since 9/19/02.**


Oh, Lord! Have we been talking about spanking THAT long?!

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/02 6:47:44 PM Central Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:

> This post gave me cold chills and I don't want to read
> >anything else you have to say
>
> I think it's very sad that you would be so rude to a newcomer on the
> list. I think it's sad that you would be intolerant of other
> people's parenting practices. Even if it does give you cold chills,
> there are much nicer ways to talk to people you disagree with. You
> catch more flies with honey...

Maybe there are nicer ways. But most of us feel this person joined with an
agenda. Regardless, the feeling is held that spanking is not only wrong, it
is damaging, spirit breaking, controlling, hateful, abhorrent. The spanker
does not treat the spankee gently. Why oh why should we treat her with kid
gloves?

If I came in here and posted that we were having a horrible day at our house.
Moly is pouting and being generally nasty. She is using a loud voice, bossing
her brother, snatching toys and books from him. Jack is whining and fussing
and every time Moly comes near him he shrieks. He chased the dog so much and
teased her with her treats that now she is hiding, shaking under my bed. Moly
just slammed the front door and didn't tell me she was going anywhere. And
Jack just spilled orange juice all over the floor and I mopped just last
night. Then I saw LEGOs all over the living room floor and my folks will be
here in three hours and... I got so mad I spanked them both and sent them to
their rooms.

Do you think Sandra or Ren or Dar or Pam or anyone is going to say *That's
okay* and give me a cyber pat on the back? Hardly. Sandra is going to ask why
I thought there was only one choice. Why had I limited myself to one choice
when there are so many more? Sandra is going to get right to the point. Ren
and Dar and Pam and others are going to chime in with advice on how I should
have separated the kids sooner, or shut the blinds and made a nest on the
couch and turned on a quiet calm movie for us to cuddle up to. Or, Or, Or...
Someone else is going to ask if they had eaten something today that didn't
agree with them. Someone else is going to ask what the heck I am doing on the
computer when I should be hugging my kids and helping them express themselves
better.

>
> I don't think it's necessarily true that one can't be an unschooler
> AND choose to spank. I would think that totally unschooling would
> usually lead to a non-spanking position, but that's just my guess.
> Not everyone gets there at the same time.

But if one was truly an unschooler then one would be here asking and looking
for other options instead of just one. If one were an unschooler they would
be looking to improve, to learn. No, nobody gets there at the same time. But
if you are an unschooler, you are LOOKING to get there, not spamming the list
with crap.

>
> If a spanker would say to a non-spanker, "I don't want to read
> anything else you have to say", they would get slammed big time.
>
>

Yes, we all just dealt with that in a previous thread. And it wasn't getting
*slammed* it was a group of people passionate about children trying to get a
point across, trying to show other options.

Has anyone else seen that commercial, it is a community service commercial.
Kids of all sizes, shapes, and colors are asking things like, "Were you the
one who shook my had after church?" "Were you the one who smiled at me when I
rode by your house?" "Were you the one who got that book for me?" and then
one kid says "Or, were you the one who looked away?" Well, in online land, we
can't look at the kid, we can't shake his hand or smile at her. We can't show
a child that we care online. But if we can make a difference in a parents
thinking, then we helped improve a child's life.

The poster you are referring too hasn't responded (yet that I know of) the
poster was the one who was inflammatory.

~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/02 11:08:30 PM, Dnowens@... writes:

<< We can't show
a child that we care online. But if we can make a difference in a parents
thinking, then we helped improve a child's life. >>

I love that point.

And in improving a child's life, the parents' lives are improved. Then the
family is improved. Then other families they meet want to know why they're
getting along so well.

Or else we can all put our kids back in school and spank them if they cry
about it.






NOT ME.

Sandra

Mike Ebbers

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Betsy <ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
>> She's been here (according to yahoogroups) since 9/19/02.**
>
>Oh, Lord! Have we been talking about spanking THAT long?!

No, it just seems like it. Time flies...
Seriously, it's been about a week (say 10/19/02), a month after the
date mentioned. However, last night I found a series of posts on
spanking from 6/2000, two years ago. So you have been talking about
it for at least that long.
Mike

kayb85

> I don't think it's necessarily true that one can't be an unschooler
> AND choose to spank. I would think that totally unschooling would
> usually lead to a non-spanking position, but that's just my guess.
> Not everyone gets there at the same time.

>But if one was truly an unschooler then one would be here asking and
looking
for other options instead of just one. If one were an unschooler they
would
>be looking to improve, to learn. No, nobody gets there at the same
time. But
if you are an unschooler, you are LOOKING to get there, not spamming
the list
>with crap.

And there is where our differences lie. I believe that one CAN be an
unschooler and still be a spanker. The poster probably didn't mean
to be inflammatory, because she didn't know that many unschoolers
don't spank. She might be an unschooler, or might be one of those
who "kind of unschool, but still uses a curriculum for some
subjects". (That was me at one time.) I highly doubt she considered
herself to be spamming. (I didn't consider her to be spamming.)

Unschooling doesn't necessarily mean not spanking.
Sheila

Todd M.

At 09:29 PM 10/25/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Oh, Lord! Have we been talking about spanking THAT long?!
>
>Betsy
==
No, not that I'm aware of. It's just that she *knew* how some people felt
about it, and chose to pour even more fuel on the fire :(

Todd

"Consciousness is... That annoying time between naps!"

Betsy

**And in improving a child's life, the parents' lives are improved.
Then the
family is improved. Then other families they meet want to know why
they're
getting along so well.**

I think sometimes we get people hollering "I don't want to be improved!
I want to be already perfect!"

At least, that's what I hear, if I listen closely. And, heck, sometimes
it's what *I* feel.

Betsy

joanna514

> Unschooling doesn't necessarily mean not spanking.
> Sheila**

How are you learning in *freedom* if you may get spanked for doing
something?
My kids are free to learn naturally, from their mistakes and
accomplishments. There is no fear of pain if they "take the wrong
path" in a decision. There is guiding help and a listening ear.
Joanna