shift in thinking
rebecca delong
Hi everyone, I have a question. For those of you who spanked, once you decided to stop how did you deal with those situations that had caused you too spank? Also, was your partner/spouse for or against the idea? And if they were against the idea, how did you go about showing/convincing them that there is a better way and it will work if they give it a chance?
TIA
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TIA
Rebecca
~*~ What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? ~*~
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Green
I spanked my child rarely, but I could tell a huge difference when I did. She would get very angry and scream and she would hit me back when she didn't get what she wanted, etc. I decided that I didn't want that type of anger in my house and I basically decided one day that I would never hit her again. I just take a deep breath or I give myself a time out to cool off. It only took about 2 weeks for me to see a difference and I love it. Now, no one hits or screams. We all need time out to cool off sometimes, but it's much more loving. I just explained to my husband what I had noticed and learned from the experience and he agreed because he could also see a difference in the way the family interacted.
Jen
Hi everyone, I have a question. For those of you who spanked, once you decided to stop how did you deal with those situations that had caused you too spank? Also, was your partner/spouse for or against the idea? And if they were against the idea, how did you go about showing/convincing them that there is a better way and it will work if they give it a chance?
TIA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jen
Hi everyone, I have a question. For those of you who spanked, once you decided to stop how did you deal with those situations that had caused you too spank? Also, was your partner/spouse for or against the idea? And if they were against the idea, how did you go about showing/convincing them that there is a better way and it will work if they give it a chance?
TIA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/02 4:31:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
elfmama92104@... writes:
with the situations.) Here is my story. (I'll try and keep it short.) Darin
had a worse childhood than I so he was never too happy with the idea of
spanking to begin with.
I was one of those Moms who lightly slapped hands that got into a bowl of
food as it was passed by the child's seat. I would smack a bottom once with a
sharp NO upon finding a child climbing on a counter or getting to close to
the street, or any other transgression. One day, Moly was just about three,
Jack was still a baby, and she was in the kitchen helping me. I told her to
get her stool and climb up so she could help. She just stood there, looking
at me. I couldn't figure out why, so I just repeated myself and said, *if you
want to help, you have to get up here, you are too small to reach even with
your stool* She just looked at me and, with tears in her eyes said, *but you
will spank me.* I had told her NO and spanked her for climbing so often (she
was a climber) that I had really put her little mind in a twist. She wanted
to help me, I wanted her to help, she had to get up to my level to help, but
had always gotten in trouble for being in the exact place I was telling her
to go to. I made up my mind right then and there not to spank anymore. It
took a long time. Many times I would see her hesitate before doing something.
And honestly? I never ever thought that a smack on the bottom was any big
deal. I was hit with belts, spoons, paddles, once with a dog chain, once with
a rubber hose. I thought I was being a good parent. From then on, I took lots
of deep breaths, I counted to ten, it was sheer will power to keep from doing
something that was so ingrained in me. What happened about a year later? Jack
was 2 and ran out in the street, he was inches from being hit by a car, which
didn't stop, just kept speeding down the street. I ran after him, and just
started hitting. I must have spanked him 6 or more times. And hard enough
that even with a diaper, he felt it. I was crying, and yelling at him. I
shook from fright for an hour after. I went to the bathroom and my hair was
sticking up, I was sweaty and flushed. I looked like a mad woman. And my
little girl came in to me and said, *You hurt my baby! You said you wouldn't
hit me, why did you hit my baby?* I try not to think about that. But I did
it, and there it is. I hit Moly for just being a normal kid, and I came very
close to beating Jack because of my fear. So I take lots of time before I
even talk to my kids, cause I was yelled at a lot as a child. And I just
remind myself of all the times I cried in my room after being hit and
thinking how much I hated my parents.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elfmama92104@... writes:
> Hi everyone, I have a question. For those of you who spanked, once youYou know, honestly? It was really hard. (Not deciding to not spank, dealing
> decided to stop how did you deal with those situations that had caused you
> too spank? Also, was your partner/spouse for or against the idea? And if
> they were against the idea, how did you go about showing/convincing them
> that there is a better way and it will work if they give it a chance?
>
> TIA
>
> Rebecca
with the situations.) Here is my story. (I'll try and keep it short.) Darin
had a worse childhood than I so he was never too happy with the idea of
spanking to begin with.
I was one of those Moms who lightly slapped hands that got into a bowl of
food as it was passed by the child's seat. I would smack a bottom once with a
sharp NO upon finding a child climbing on a counter or getting to close to
the street, or any other transgression. One day, Moly was just about three,
Jack was still a baby, and she was in the kitchen helping me. I told her to
get her stool and climb up so she could help. She just stood there, looking
at me. I couldn't figure out why, so I just repeated myself and said, *if you
want to help, you have to get up here, you are too small to reach even with
your stool* She just looked at me and, with tears in her eyes said, *but you
will spank me.* I had told her NO and spanked her for climbing so often (she
was a climber) that I had really put her little mind in a twist. She wanted
to help me, I wanted her to help, she had to get up to my level to help, but
had always gotten in trouble for being in the exact place I was telling her
to go to. I made up my mind right then and there not to spank anymore. It
took a long time. Many times I would see her hesitate before doing something.
And honestly? I never ever thought that a smack on the bottom was any big
deal. I was hit with belts, spoons, paddles, once with a dog chain, once with
a rubber hose. I thought I was being a good parent. From then on, I took lots
of deep breaths, I counted to ten, it was sheer will power to keep from doing
something that was so ingrained in me. What happened about a year later? Jack
was 2 and ran out in the street, he was inches from being hit by a car, which
didn't stop, just kept speeding down the street. I ran after him, and just
started hitting. I must have spanked him 6 or more times. And hard enough
that even with a diaper, he felt it. I was crying, and yelling at him. I
shook from fright for an hour after. I went to the bathroom and my hair was
sticking up, I was sweaty and flushed. I looked like a mad woman. And my
little girl came in to me and said, *You hurt my baby! You said you wouldn't
hit me, why did you hit my baby?* I try not to think about that. But I did
it, and there it is. I hit Moly for just being a normal kid, and I came very
close to beating Jack because of my fear. So I take lots of time before I
even talk to my kids, cause I was yelled at a lot as a child. And I just
remind myself of all the times I cried in my room after being hit and
thinking how much I hated my parents.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: rebecca delong <elfmama92104@...><<Hi everyone, I have a question. For those of you who spanked, once you
decided to stop how did you deal with those situations that had caused you
too spank?>>
Well I swatted my first child on the diaper/butt. Her father did spank her
once so hard it left a bruised bottom. I very honestly told him that if he
ever did that again, I would kill him. After that he never laid a hand on
her but his words were probably much worse. It wasn't long after that I had
my revelation and stopped the swatting. Once I make up my mind to stop
something, it's always been easy for me to do. Can't say what I went to was
much better but I used time outs. I guess more for me than her. Sending her
to her room calmed the situation for us both. It took me quite a while to
find that talking and figuring out wher she was really worked best.
<<Also, was your partner/spouse for or against the idea? And if they were
against the idea, how did you go about showing/convincing them that there is
a better way and it will work if they give it a chance?>>
I didn't convince him, I divorced him!!!
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls!�Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
Robyn Coburn
Well after a lot of reading in this bunch of threads I have decided to
add my story. It's all about peeling the onion and constant shifts in
thinking.
Our DD just turned three, still happily nursing, and we made a conscious
decision from the get-go not to spank under any circumstances, to
homeschool, and a little later not to use punishments, and then more
recently, to unschool forever. We are both 41. I felt I was led on this
increasingly radical path initially by reading some William Sears and
John Holt. Also "How to talk so your kid will listen...etc", and "The
Aware Baby" which talks about compassionately understanding a baby's
need to cry as communication - this encourages parental behavior that is
the opposite of the abhorrent crying it out theory btw. I read some
Brazelton, took on his useful information about the wide range of what
is "normal" for infant development, and left behind some of his more
conservative "children should learn to be autonomous" stuff. I also read
"It's Not Fair, Jeremy Spencer's parents let him stay up all night"
which is what first alerted me to the possibility that punishments,
consequences and time-outs were not necessary to child rearing. (I don't
like his "send them away if they are behaving obnoxiously" concept - and
this list has helped me with alternative strategies there.)
One of the big decisions I made was not to label or perceive what Jayn
does as being "naughty" or in any way other than **ordinary behavior**
for a little child. This is step beyond what I had already read about -
the fairly standard in childrearing texts notion: Label the behavior as
the problem, not the child. Of course this is better than labeling the
child, but a lot of these ideas can be just strategies for getting a kid
to do what you want them to NOW, including go off to school each day. Do
you get that I spent most of my pregnancy/early nursing time reading?
Six months ago Jayn just did not want to do something or other. I was
feeling frustrated and angry, and so was she, and I knew that in another
family there would be spanking by this point. At my wits end I picked
her up and gave her a big zerble kiss (a raspberry) on her belly. Well
whatever the problem was evaporated. I was amazed to see my suddenly
happy little girl. It was a "shift" moment that helped me want to look
further, dig deeper in to how to do this respectful parenting life, and
stop and wait when Jayn is doing something that "makes me angry".
Because the more I go on, the more I realize it isn't her making me
anything, it is **my** reaction that is **my** problem.
If I get that sense that it would be spanking time in another household,
then that is definitely time to show Jayn some love. I am trying to
internalize the NVC process - harder with DH than DD. ;) Even so, I
still get my husband saying to me "you sounded really angry talking to
Jayn just now". I guess I sometimes sound angrier than I realize. Thank
goodness he is around to tell me.
Where do I get my notion of "another household"? My mother spanked and
screamed at me my whole childhood, as well as being very controlling.
She didn't need any tools - her hand was like iron. Later she would come
in to my room, crying and apologizing, promising not to hit me again.
How I ranted in whispers in my room of the unfairness of it, waiting and
yearning for that late night visit from the penitent. I remember my
throat being sore from not shouting. I screwed up many of my early
relationships, even the ones with nice men instead of controlling
abusers, because I needed conflict to feel love.
When I try to remember my childhood, I have no memories of my home life
or my mother unconnected with crying or pain. I have no idea what I did
to spark the spankings. I do remember telling some school friends as a
teenager that I had been a naughty child who must have deserved to be
spanked. I feel so sorry for that little girl. Today I realize my mother
had unrealistic expectations of a child's behavior, and her own problem
with uncontrollable rage, and she says nowhere to go for help in those
days (1960's).
About ten years ago my mother told me that she had come to realize that
she had been an emotionally abusive parent and she wanted to apologize
for always shouting at me and calling me names. I thought at the time
that I made a decision to forgive her, although I was amazed that she
basically didn't remember hitting me so much, which was what I
remembered. She chose then to reveal that she had been horribly
physically abused all her young life by my grandfather (4 years old
being beaten with a belt) and caned repeatedly by a school principal in
a way that is a felony now. Gramps had been abused in his turn by Great
Garna as she was called. This bad childhood has been the reason for
every mistake she ever made (even recent ones). Ten years ago, I felt
like it was just another burden of her emotions that I had to carry.
Now that I have my own daughter, I find it is harder for me to feel
forgiving, but easier for me to let go of her burdens. I would rather
avoid her than have to remind myself not to feel responsible for her
feelings about whatever the issue may be. Our conversations are not
intimate. She remains often critical and controlling, but speaks so
sweetly. Her philosophy is if you nag at someone enough they will do
what you want them to, for which actions she then takes the credit.
Someone quit smoking? She made them stop. Sometimes her little remarks
are like a poison, sifting through my thoughts. What if they are true
and she is right? I finally had to say to her, "Are you trying to make
me get a divorce?" "No" "Then stop criticizing my husband".
As Jayn grows older I frequently have moments of almost out of body
schism when I suddenly think "Mum would have hit me if I had been doing
this". It could be something as simple as making a mess with water.
These realizations make it hard for me to accept her apology in my
heart. She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
"you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
couldn't have done it. A thousand generations of abuse and fury. Well it
stops here: the chain is broken. I am the bulwark against the teeming
rages of my family history. There is nothing that Jayn could ever do
that would cause me to spank her, or believe she deserved to be spanked.
With gratitude,
Robyn Coburn
add my story. It's all about peeling the onion and constant shifts in
thinking.
Our DD just turned three, still happily nursing, and we made a conscious
decision from the get-go not to spank under any circumstances, to
homeschool, and a little later not to use punishments, and then more
recently, to unschool forever. We are both 41. I felt I was led on this
increasingly radical path initially by reading some William Sears and
John Holt. Also "How to talk so your kid will listen...etc", and "The
Aware Baby" which talks about compassionately understanding a baby's
need to cry as communication - this encourages parental behavior that is
the opposite of the abhorrent crying it out theory btw. I read some
Brazelton, took on his useful information about the wide range of what
is "normal" for infant development, and left behind some of his more
conservative "children should learn to be autonomous" stuff. I also read
"It's Not Fair, Jeremy Spencer's parents let him stay up all night"
which is what first alerted me to the possibility that punishments,
consequences and time-outs were not necessary to child rearing. (I don't
like his "send them away if they are behaving obnoxiously" concept - and
this list has helped me with alternative strategies there.)
One of the big decisions I made was not to label or perceive what Jayn
does as being "naughty" or in any way other than **ordinary behavior**
for a little child. This is step beyond what I had already read about -
the fairly standard in childrearing texts notion: Label the behavior as
the problem, not the child. Of course this is better than labeling the
child, but a lot of these ideas can be just strategies for getting a kid
to do what you want them to NOW, including go off to school each day. Do
you get that I spent most of my pregnancy/early nursing time reading?
Six months ago Jayn just did not want to do something or other. I was
feeling frustrated and angry, and so was she, and I knew that in another
family there would be spanking by this point. At my wits end I picked
her up and gave her a big zerble kiss (a raspberry) on her belly. Well
whatever the problem was evaporated. I was amazed to see my suddenly
happy little girl. It was a "shift" moment that helped me want to look
further, dig deeper in to how to do this respectful parenting life, and
stop and wait when Jayn is doing something that "makes me angry".
Because the more I go on, the more I realize it isn't her making me
anything, it is **my** reaction that is **my** problem.
If I get that sense that it would be spanking time in another household,
then that is definitely time to show Jayn some love. I am trying to
internalize the NVC process - harder with DH than DD. ;) Even so, I
still get my husband saying to me "you sounded really angry talking to
Jayn just now". I guess I sometimes sound angrier than I realize. Thank
goodness he is around to tell me.
Where do I get my notion of "another household"? My mother spanked and
screamed at me my whole childhood, as well as being very controlling.
She didn't need any tools - her hand was like iron. Later she would come
in to my room, crying and apologizing, promising not to hit me again.
How I ranted in whispers in my room of the unfairness of it, waiting and
yearning for that late night visit from the penitent. I remember my
throat being sore from not shouting. I screwed up many of my early
relationships, even the ones with nice men instead of controlling
abusers, because I needed conflict to feel love.
When I try to remember my childhood, I have no memories of my home life
or my mother unconnected with crying or pain. I have no idea what I did
to spark the spankings. I do remember telling some school friends as a
teenager that I had been a naughty child who must have deserved to be
spanked. I feel so sorry for that little girl. Today I realize my mother
had unrealistic expectations of a child's behavior, and her own problem
with uncontrollable rage, and she says nowhere to go for help in those
days (1960's).
About ten years ago my mother told me that she had come to realize that
she had been an emotionally abusive parent and she wanted to apologize
for always shouting at me and calling me names. I thought at the time
that I made a decision to forgive her, although I was amazed that she
basically didn't remember hitting me so much, which was what I
remembered. She chose then to reveal that she had been horribly
physically abused all her young life by my grandfather (4 years old
being beaten with a belt) and caned repeatedly by a school principal in
a way that is a felony now. Gramps had been abused in his turn by Great
Garna as she was called. This bad childhood has been the reason for
every mistake she ever made (even recent ones). Ten years ago, I felt
like it was just another burden of her emotions that I had to carry.
Now that I have my own daughter, I find it is harder for me to feel
forgiving, but easier for me to let go of her burdens. I would rather
avoid her than have to remind myself not to feel responsible for her
feelings about whatever the issue may be. Our conversations are not
intimate. She remains often critical and controlling, but speaks so
sweetly. Her philosophy is if you nag at someone enough they will do
what you want them to, for which actions she then takes the credit.
Someone quit smoking? She made them stop. Sometimes her little remarks
are like a poison, sifting through my thoughts. What if they are true
and she is right? I finally had to say to her, "Are you trying to make
me get a divorce?" "No" "Then stop criticizing my husband".
As Jayn grows older I frequently have moments of almost out of body
schism when I suddenly think "Mum would have hit me if I had been doing
this". It could be something as simple as making a mess with water.
These realizations make it hard for me to accept her apology in my
heart. She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
"you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
couldn't have done it. A thousand generations of abuse and fury. Well it
stops here: the chain is broken. I am the bulwark against the teeming
rages of my family history. There is nothing that Jayn could ever do
that would cause me to spank her, or believe she deserved to be spanked.
With gratitude,
Robyn Coburn
Todd M.
At 05:25 AM 10/25/02 -0700, you wrote:
Thanks for sharing your story.<hugs> Very powerful stuff :)
Todd
"A day without sunshine is, like, Night"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>There is nothing that Jayn could ever do that would cause me to spank her,==
>or believe she deserved to be spanked.
>
>With gratitude,
>
>Robyn Coburn
Thanks for sharing your story.<hugs> Very powerful stuff :)
Todd
"A day without sunshine is, like, Night"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
[email protected]
Robyn,
Reading your post was like watching a really intense movie scene with a scary
soundtrack. You wrote that really well.
<< . She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
"you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
couldn't have done it. A thousand generations of abuse and fury. >>
I don't think it goes back a thousand generations. I think there were times
and places when children were treated better.
I think the hitting of children came with Christianity. What I would like to
know to help me confirm or deny this is how typical Moslem kids are treated.
Not during wartime, so this might be a bad season to ask, but ideally. In a
stable family do they beat their babies? Toddlers?
I think it's the idea of sin and that Jesus could come at any moment (the Big
Inspection) that brought about a lot of violence against children. "Hurry up
and UNDERSTAND so we will pass muster when Jesus comes." Our lives must be a
snapshot moment at all times.
But in order to get those snapshot perfect moments, too many parents have
hit children.
I think if we had a movie of all the spankings that happen in the U.S. just
today, October 25, and we had to sit and watch that that some of us would
puke, and some might just die of sorrow.
If we had a movie of the spankings received just by people now grown who are
on this list, it would be a much shorter movie than that October 25, 2002
film.
Yet there are people here on a list supposedly dedicated to how children can
learn naturally who are defending parents' right to "spank" (my mom always
called it "a whippin'") their children?
There is no formerly-spanked person who doesn't know about Spanking.
There are MANY formerly-spankied people who justified in their own minds as
good and necessary for the person they are now. We are TRYING to show a
loving alternative, and people are saying "nope, nope, nope!"
My mother explained to me, when I was 20 and my half-brother was a year old,
that if you spank them for any disobedience when they're babies, when they're
older they'll just "mind you" without any memory of the spankings.
I saw her spank my brother in the crib for crying when he woke up wet.
Sandra
Reading your post was like watching a really intense movie scene with a scary
soundtrack. You wrote that really well.
<< . She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
"you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
couldn't have done it. A thousand generations of abuse and fury. >>
I don't think it goes back a thousand generations. I think there were times
and places when children were treated better.
I think the hitting of children came with Christianity. What I would like to
know to help me confirm or deny this is how typical Moslem kids are treated.
Not during wartime, so this might be a bad season to ask, but ideally. In a
stable family do they beat their babies? Toddlers?
I think it's the idea of sin and that Jesus could come at any moment (the Big
Inspection) that brought about a lot of violence against children. "Hurry up
and UNDERSTAND so we will pass muster when Jesus comes." Our lives must be a
snapshot moment at all times.
But in order to get those snapshot perfect moments, too many parents have
hit children.
I think if we had a movie of all the spankings that happen in the U.S. just
today, October 25, and we had to sit and watch that that some of us would
puke, and some might just die of sorrow.
If we had a movie of the spankings received just by people now grown who are
on this list, it would be a much shorter movie than that October 25, 2002
film.
Yet there are people here on a list supposedly dedicated to how children can
learn naturally who are defending parents' right to "spank" (my mom always
called it "a whippin'") their children?
There is no formerly-spanked person who doesn't know about Spanking.
There are MANY formerly-spankied people who justified in their own minds as
good and necessary for the person they are now. We are TRYING to show a
loving alternative, and people are saying "nope, nope, nope!"
My mother explained to me, when I was 20 and my half-brother was a year old,
that if you spank them for any disobedience when they're babies, when they're
older they'll just "mind you" without any memory of the spankings.
I saw her spank my brother in the crib for crying when he woke up wet.
Sandra
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
I am reading a book right now about "honor killings" of children
among Palestinian Muslims in the Middle East and abroad. The
conceptual framework is probably better presented here:
http://www.islam-online.net/english/Contemporary/2002/05/article7
-a.shtml
among Palestinian Muslims in the Middle East and abroad. The
conceptual framework is probably better presented here:
http://www.islam-online.net/english/Contemporary/2002/05/article7
-a.shtml
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: shift in thinking (got a
bit -make that very- long)
| Robyn,
|
| Reading your post was like watching a really intense movie
scene with a scary
| soundtrack. You wrote that really well.
|
| << . She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about
Jayn".
| There must have been something in my face, because her next
words were
| "you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do,
she
| couldn't have done it. A thousand generations of abuse and
fury. >>
|
| I don't think it goes back a thousand generations. I think
there were times
| and places when children were treated better.
|
| I think the hitting of children came with Christianity. What I
would like to
| know to help me confirm or deny this is how typical Moslem kids
are treated.
| Not during wartime, so this might be a bad season to ask, but
ideally. In a
| stable family do they beat their babies? Toddlers?
|
| I think it's the idea of sin and that Jesus could come at any
moment (the Big
| Inspection) that brought about a lot of violence against
children. "Hurry up
| and UNDERSTAND so we will pass muster when Jesus comes." Our
lives must be a
| snapshot moment at all times.
|
| But in order to get those snapshot perfect moments, too many
parents have
| hit children.
|
| I think if we had a movie of all the spankings that happen in
the U.S. just
| today, October 25, and we had to sit and watch that that some
of us would
| puke, and some might just die of sorrow.
|
| If we had a movie of the spankings received just by people now
grown who are
| on this list, it would be a much shorter movie than that
October 25, 2002
| film.
|
| Yet there are people here on a list supposedly dedicated to how
children can
| learn naturally who are defending parents' right to "spank" (my
mom always
| called it "a whippin'") their children?
|
| There is no formerly-spanked person who doesn't know about
Spanking.
|
| There are MANY formerly-spankied people who justified in their
own minds as
| good and necessary for the person they are now. We are TRYING
to show a
| loving alternative, and people are saying "nope, nope, nope!"
|
| My mother explained to me, when I was 20 and my half-brother
was a year old,
| that if you spank them for any disobedience when they're
babies, when they're
| older they'll just "mind you" without any memory of the
spankings.
|
| I saw her spank my brother in the crib for crying when he woke
up wet.
|
| Sandra
|
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Peggy
Sandra wrote:
It reflects the common early childhood training literature that Alice Miller
documents in her books.
Train 'em up to not feel the pain that we are inflicting on them. Break 'em
early.
Peggy
> My mother explained to me, when I was 20 and my half-brother was a year old,The pain of that statement is almost more than I can bear.
> that if you spank them for any disobedience when they're babies, when they're
> older they'll just "mind you" without any memory of the spankings.
It reflects the common early childhood training literature that Alice Miller
documents in her books.
Train 'em up to not feel the pain that we are inflicting on them. Break 'em
early.
Peggy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/2002 1:04:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
It doesn't sound as though you've MADE her do things a certain way. She's
just adopted your style.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> . Moly was washing dishesMaybe she's just seen how you do it. It makes sense. She wants to please you.
> the other night and Darin went in and asked her if she wanted help. She
> said
> sure, you wash, I'll dry. So they were going about it and about 5 minutes
> later, she came into me and said, "Daddy's washing the dishes in the wrong
> order." Darin laughed and said to me that she is just like me! Then he told
>
> me that when I was gone for a week last summer, she had helped him with the
>
> groceries and they were putting things away and she put things in the
> cabinet
> just like I did. He said she dusts like me, folds clothes like me... I
> couldn't believe it. Sometimes I really feel like I haven't escaped all
> that
> abuse, and I have passed it on through my genes or something. Its like ugly
>
> cold fingers that have reached past my efforts to keep my kids safe and
> touched them despite me. I really hate that.
It doesn't sound as though you've MADE her do things a certain way. She's
just adopted your style.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:17:08 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
family still in the middle east. We worked for a homeschool charter
school, and most of the people in the main office were fundamentalist
Christian. She told me about having lunch with one woman, and how
appalled she was when the woman told her how children are born full of
sin and that you had to, basically, beat the sin out of them. My friend's
beliefs were that children were born good, and until they were 6 or so,
that didn't understand that they were doing wrong and therefore shouldn't
be punished. Her younger son was always around, and I never saw him
punished for "misbehavior". He was maybe one when we first met, and 3
when we moved away.
Her older son is Rain's age (6 when we met) and a lot more was expected
of him. She didn't spank him but his father did, and she didn't agree but
didn't interfere...
Dar
> What I would like totreated.
> know to help me confirm or deny this is how typical Moslem kids are
> Not during wartime, so this might be a bad season to ask, butMy good friend and former boss is Moslem, living here but with lots of
> ideally. In a
> stable family do they beat their babies? Toddlers?
family still in the middle east. We worked for a homeschool charter
school, and most of the people in the main office were fundamentalist
Christian. She told me about having lunch with one woman, and how
appalled she was when the woman told her how children are born full of
sin and that you had to, basically, beat the sin out of them. My friend's
beliefs were that children were born good, and until they were 6 or so,
that didn't understand that they were doing wrong and therefore shouldn't
be punished. Her younger son was always around, and I never saw him
punished for "misbehavior". He was maybe one when we first met, and 3
when we moved away.
Her older son is Rain's age (6 when we met) and a lot more was expected
of him. She didn't spank him but his father did, and she didn't agree but
didn't interfere...
Dar
Peggy
> Maybe she's just seen how you do it. It makes sense. She wants to pleaseBecause a parent modeling a behavior is teaching?
> you.
> It doesn't sound as though you've MADE her do things a certain way. She's
> just adopted your style.
>
> Kelly
Peggy
Betsy
**As Jayn grows older I frequently have moments of almost out of body
schism when I suddenly think "Mum would have hit me if I had been doing
this". It could be something as simple as making a mess with water.
These realizations make it hard for me to accept her apology in my
heart. She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
"you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
couldn't have done it. **
Hi, Robyn --
Did she *choose* to be a parent, or did her body just pop you out
because she had sex with your father? (I'm older and many of my friends
and in-laws were born before The Pill was available.) I think there's a
big difference in how women might feel towards their children in the
different circumstances. Imagine the feelings of a woman with 8 or 10
children who didn't get to ask herself "can I handle one more?" before
having more. It doesn't justify abusiveness, but I can understand feeling
resentful in circumstances like that.
Betsy
schism when I suddenly think "Mum would have hit me if I had been doing
this". It could be something as simple as making a mess with water.
These realizations make it hard for me to accept her apology in my
heart. She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
"you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
couldn't have done it. **
Hi, Robyn --
Did she *choose* to be a parent, or did her body just pop you out
because she had sex with your father? (I'm older and many of my friends
and in-laws were born before The Pill was available.) I think there's a
big difference in how women might feel towards their children in the
different circumstances. Imagine the feelings of a woman with 8 or 10
children who didn't get to ask herself "can I handle one more?" before
having more. It doesn't justify abusiveness, but I can understand feeling
resentful in circumstances like that.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 11:27:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< . Sometimes I really feel like I haven't escaped all that
abuse, and I have passed it on through my genes or something. Its like ugly
cold fingers that have reached past my efforts to keep my kids safe and
touched them despite me. I really hate that. Does anyone who has made it to
the end of my long post, go through this too? I hope not. >>
Oh gosh Nancy. I just want to hug you. You're an incredible person, not only
to have survived all that crap, but to come out wanting to parent so
differently and gently.
I understand the passing stuff on...without wanting to.
But I never had the harsh experiences you did. The damage done in my home was
really minimal compared to so many people here.
I do remember my Mom ranting at me over how I'd folded the towels. If you
didn't fold them a certain way, she got all upset.
I thought it was the only right way to fold towels and berated my dh after we
were first married for doing it wrong.
He thought I was nuts, I thought he was being difficult.
Here's the funny thing. After all these years of folding towels dh's way, and
not worrying how the kids fold them at all, my Grandma comes to visit.
She always cleans while she's here (we finally just shrugged and decided it
wasn't worth trying to stop her, its' the only way she feels needed in life)
and when she stacked towels in our cupboard she explained "this is the only
way I could make them fit nicely" and lo and behold, they were folded the
"right" way my Mom had taught us.
Grandma couldn't even let go when she saw we did it differently, but "fixed"
our cupboard for us. ugh.
We just smile, say thanks and do it our way after she's gone.
Once in a while I have to say "NO Grandma, we don't want it that way!!" in a
very assertive manner over other issues.
Anyway, I have noticed my problem with guilting the children into helping me
around the house. That is something from my Mom.
She yelled a lot too. And it wasn't always in a mean way, she had six kids,
three of which were adopted and she yelled across the house to get our
attention rather than coming to us.
Funny thing is, she hated it when we did the same...but needless to say, we
all yelled and had a very noisy, boisterous house.
Luckily, it was mostly happy noise. And she was really great about letting
kids be kids. Mudpies, puddle stomping etc... was the norm.
So I see some of her not so nice traits come through in me and the unhappy
way it affects my children, but I also get to enjoy some of the really great
things that she left me with.
A love for storytelling, willingness to get messy with the kids, creatively
thinking up fun things to do, love for reading and books etc....
I see so much of what she did wrong was diluted from the harsh way she was
raised, and now in me, I really long to end it so that my children will not
pass this legacy of anger on to their children.
My Grandfather on the same side of the family (Maternal Grandpa), had an
alcoholic father and practically raised himself and siblings. He had it
ROUGH, so his harsh parenting style was much better than what he had known.
My Mother learned a lot of stuff while I was still at home, and now I hope I
can do well enough to end it all.
The coolest thing about my family, is they all regret being physical and
harsh in ANY way and have encouraged all of us to never spank or yell.
Both my Dad and Grandparents have been advocates for gentle parenting.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< . Sometimes I really feel like I haven't escaped all that
abuse, and I have passed it on through my genes or something. Its like ugly
cold fingers that have reached past my efforts to keep my kids safe and
touched them despite me. I really hate that. Does anyone who has made it to
the end of my long post, go through this too? I hope not. >>
Oh gosh Nancy. I just want to hug you. You're an incredible person, not only
to have survived all that crap, but to come out wanting to parent so
differently and gently.
I understand the passing stuff on...without wanting to.
But I never had the harsh experiences you did. The damage done in my home was
really minimal compared to so many people here.
I do remember my Mom ranting at me over how I'd folded the towels. If you
didn't fold them a certain way, she got all upset.
I thought it was the only right way to fold towels and berated my dh after we
were first married for doing it wrong.
He thought I was nuts, I thought he was being difficult.
Here's the funny thing. After all these years of folding towels dh's way, and
not worrying how the kids fold them at all, my Grandma comes to visit.
She always cleans while she's here (we finally just shrugged and decided it
wasn't worth trying to stop her, its' the only way she feels needed in life)
and when she stacked towels in our cupboard she explained "this is the only
way I could make them fit nicely" and lo and behold, they were folded the
"right" way my Mom had taught us.
Grandma couldn't even let go when she saw we did it differently, but "fixed"
our cupboard for us. ugh.
We just smile, say thanks and do it our way after she's gone.
Once in a while I have to say "NO Grandma, we don't want it that way!!" in a
very assertive manner over other issues.
Anyway, I have noticed my problem with guilting the children into helping me
around the house. That is something from my Mom.
She yelled a lot too. And it wasn't always in a mean way, she had six kids,
three of which were adopted and she yelled across the house to get our
attention rather than coming to us.
Funny thing is, she hated it when we did the same...but needless to say, we
all yelled and had a very noisy, boisterous house.
Luckily, it was mostly happy noise. And she was really great about letting
kids be kids. Mudpies, puddle stomping etc... was the norm.
So I see some of her not so nice traits come through in me and the unhappy
way it affects my children, but I also get to enjoy some of the really great
things that she left me with.
A love for storytelling, willingness to get messy with the kids, creatively
thinking up fun things to do, love for reading and books etc....
I see so much of what she did wrong was diluted from the harsh way she was
raised, and now in me, I really long to end it so that my children will not
pass this legacy of anger on to their children.
My Grandfather on the same side of the family (Maternal Grandpa), had an
alcoholic father and practically raised himself and siblings. He had it
ROUGH, so his harsh parenting style was much better than what he had known.
My Mother learned a lot of stuff while I was still at home, and now I hope I
can do well enough to end it all.
The coolest thing about my family, is they all regret being physical and
harsh in ANY way and have encouraged all of us to never spank or yell.
Both my Dad and Grandparents have been advocates for gentle parenting.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 1:44:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Is this an American thing? Only to wear white in the summer? I've
never heard of that. >>
Oh gosh. Where DID this one come from? I remember my Grandmother and Mom not
letting us wear white shoes after Labor Day.
Weird. It took me so long to finally learn that all the rules were pure
Horseshit.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Is this an American thing? Only to wear white in the summer? I've
never heard of that. >>
Oh gosh. Where DID this one come from? I remember my Grandmother and Mom not
letting us wear white shoes after Labor Day.
Weird. It took me so long to finally learn that all the rules were pure
Horseshit.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 2:32:24 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< > <Snip>
mine! <g> >>
Yep. It was my Dad.
He's the best, I love him dearly.
My formerly conservative Dad that just bought a Harley-Davidson!!!
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< > <Snip>
> I love the idea of picking up the child that I am angry with. TalkI think that was Ren's Dad who suggested that to her. It certainly wasn't
> about wisdom!!!! Your dad really has something there.
mine! <g> >>
Yep. It was my Dad.
He's the best, I love him dearly.
My formerly conservative Dad that just bought a Harley-Davidson!!!
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 2:32:24 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Nah, he can be evicted and/or banished. For a long time, whenever one of
those old tapes would play, I'd think "gee, thanks dad for reminding what
NOT to do"! It helped!
Nancy.
I love Richard Prytwosky's (hope that's spelled right) view on that. He says
you don't erase the old tapes, they're part of you. But you can choose to
quiet them and change your reactions to them.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Nah, he can be evicted and/or banished. For a long time, whenever one of
those old tapes would play, I'd think "gee, thanks dad for reminding what
NOT to do"! It helped!
>>I disagree. He can be quieted, but not banished. He is part of who you are
Nancy.
I love Richard Prytwosky's (hope that's spelled right) view on that. He says
you don't erase the old tapes, they're part of you. But you can choose to
quiet them and change your reactions to them.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 1:35:59 PM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< After all these years of folding towels dh's way, and
not worrying how the kids fold them at all, my Grandma comes to visit. >>
Towel-folding is a lot like that story that goes around among women about
cutting the ends of the ham. Thinking that's how hams were supposed to be
cooked, the granddaughter always cut the ends off. So her grandmother comes
to some family dinner, and the granddaughter says "Look, I still make it that
same way you did," while serving a little cut-off ham in a big pan. And the
grandmother said that she only did it because she had only a pan and a narrow
little oven.
The mother, in between those generations, just did what her mom had done.
We have two ways of folding towels here. The square way is for the back
shower or Kirby's room (where towels live on one end of the long counter),
and a narrow way for where Marty takes showers, where towels are stacked on
the back of the toilet.
I think people should fold towels to fit in the space where they're going to
fit. Same with cloth napkins.
-=-She yelled a lot too. And it wasn't always in a mean way, she had six
kids,
three of which were adopted and she yelled across the house to get our
attention rather than coming to us.
Funny thing is, she hated it when we did the same..-=-
I do that. I yell across the house for people sometimes, even when I'm not
in a wheelchair. That used to really bug my husband when we first had kids.
But to be fair, if a kid yells from another room, I go see what they need.
Because sometimes they're stuck, or really frustrated (so physically or
mentally stuck <g>) and sometimes they're about to drop something and are
only holding it up with some body part against a wall, or they're in the
midst of a construction project and they have glue all over their hands and
just need one more hand to help get the last piece in, or whatever.
And we all try to go gently and quietly to where the other person is when we
can, too, to avoid the boy-who-cried-wolf effect.
An across-the-board rule of no yelling wouldn't be as good for us as just
figuring if someone yelled they must need help!!
Sandra
<< After all these years of folding towels dh's way, and
not worrying how the kids fold them at all, my Grandma comes to visit. >>
Towel-folding is a lot like that story that goes around among women about
cutting the ends of the ham. Thinking that's how hams were supposed to be
cooked, the granddaughter always cut the ends off. So her grandmother comes
to some family dinner, and the granddaughter says "Look, I still make it that
same way you did," while serving a little cut-off ham in a big pan. And the
grandmother said that she only did it because she had only a pan and a narrow
little oven.
The mother, in between those generations, just did what her mom had done.
We have two ways of folding towels here. The square way is for the back
shower or Kirby's room (where towels live on one end of the long counter),
and a narrow way for where Marty takes showers, where towels are stacked on
the back of the toilet.
I think people should fold towels to fit in the space where they're going to
fit. Same with cloth napkins.
-=-She yelled a lot too. And it wasn't always in a mean way, she had six
kids,
three of which were adopted and she yelled across the house to get our
attention rather than coming to us.
Funny thing is, she hated it when we did the same..-=-
I do that. I yell across the house for people sometimes, even when I'm not
in a wheelchair. That used to really bug my husband when we first had kids.
But to be fair, if a kid yells from another room, I go see what they need.
Because sometimes they're stuck, or really frustrated (so physically or
mentally stuck <g>) and sometimes they're about to drop something and are
only holding it up with some body part against a wall, or they're in the
midst of a construction project and they have glue all over their hands and
just need one more hand to help get the last piece in, or whatever.
And we all try to go gently and quietly to where the other person is when we
can, too, to avoid the boy-who-cried-wolf effect.
An across-the-board rule of no yelling wouldn't be as good for us as just
figuring if someone yelled they must need help!!
Sandra
james e thomas
LOL!!! Sandra....I was thinking about the same type of story as the one
you told on the ham.
I just wish it wasn't so painful for relatives when we question things.
they seem to either look at us as "bucking the system" or being
"disrespectful.
I do have a question though......what would any of you do if your in laws
kissed the children on the lips when they visit and your kids said
"yuck.I don't like it." AND talking didn't seem to change anything
because they either felt it was too small an issue to worry about or
felt the kids did not have the right to say that?
sharon
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you told on the ham.
I just wish it wasn't so painful for relatives when we question things.
they seem to either look at us as "bucking the system" or being
"disrespectful.
I do have a question though......what would any of you do if your in laws
kissed the children on the lips when they visit and your kids said
"yuck.I don't like it." AND talking didn't seem to change anything
because they either felt it was too small an issue to worry about or
felt the kids did not have the right to say that?
sharon
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
Mary Bianco
>From: SandraDodd@...<<Towel-folding is a lot like that story that goes around among women about
cutting the ends of the ham. Thinking that's how hams were supposed to be
cooked, the granddaughter always cut the ends off. So her grandmother
comes to some family dinner, and the granddaughter says "Look, I still make
it that same way you did," while serving a little cut-off ham in a big pan.
And the grandmother said that she only did it because she had only a pan and
a narrow little oven.
The mother, in between those generations, just did what her mom had done.>>
Isn't that kind of like the story about the chimpanzees and because "that's
the way it's always been done?" Everytime I think of my in laws I think of
those damn monkeys!!
<<We have two ways of folding towels here. The square way is for the back
shower or Kirby's room (where towels live on one end of the long
counter),and a narrow way for where Marty takes showers, where towels are
stacked on the back of the toilet.>>
Our towels are all folded one way, only because I'm anal about how they are
folded. It's okay, it suits us all here!!!
<<An across-the-board rule of no yelling wouldn't be as good for us as just
figuring if someone yelled they must need help!!>>
Oh we yell here too. Just because of the set up of the house and where
everyone is around here. It's also a very open floor plan and since we're
always on the run, someone usually yells for the person to stop walking so
we can find each other!!!
Mary B
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Alan & Brenda Leonard
10/25/02 21:32:
(after 4 years of marriage, but that's another story...), Tim was just 4
weeks old, but I cleaned and cleaned trying to "meet standards". Of course
I failed miserably, and she ranted on about what a terrible housekeeper I
was for days while cleaning it "properly".
Next time she came to visit, the place was a mess. When she started in on
me about it, I just smiled and told her I hadn't had time. So she cleaned
it. Saved me getting all upset, 'cause I hadn't invested any time or energy
in it. Now she just believes I live in a pigsty, and I don't bother to
correct her impressions; I just quit cleaning about 2 weeks before she
arrives. <beg>
brenda
> my Grandma comes to visit.This little piece made me laugh. The first time my Mom came to visit us
> She always cleans while she's here (we finally just shrugged and decided it
> wasn't worth trying to stop her, its' the only way she feels needed in life)
(after 4 years of marriage, but that's another story...), Tim was just 4
weeks old, but I cleaned and cleaned trying to "meet standards". Of course
I failed miserably, and she ranted on about what a terrible housekeeper I
was for days while cleaning it "properly".
Next time she came to visit, the place was a mess. When she started in on
me about it, I just smiled and told her I hadn't had time. So she cleaned
it. Saved me getting all upset, 'cause I hadn't invested any time or energy
in it. Now she just believes I live in a pigsty, and I don't bother to
correct her impressions; I just quit cleaning about 2 weeks before she
arrives. <beg>
brenda
Valerie
> I just wish it wasn't so painful for relatives when we questionthings.
> they seem to either look at us as "bucking the system" or beingin laws
> "disrespectful.
>
> I do have a question though......what would any of you do if your
> kissed the children on the lips when they visit and your kids saidor
> "yuck.I don't like it." AND talking didn't seem to change anything
> because they either felt it was too small an issue to worry about
> felt the kids did not have the right to say that?That did happen to Laurie when she was young and as the relative
>
> sharon
came towards her with pursed lips, Laurie said, "I don't kiss. I
hug." The relative looked shocked then hugged her. The relative
looked at me and my look confirmed Laurie's rights. Another relative
insisted on pinching Laurie's cheeks each meeting and saying, "My
how you've grown." When Laurie was seven, she ran up to my cousin
(the pincher), pinched her cheek and said, "My how you've grown." My
cousin never pinched her cheek again. I didn't care how small an
issue others thought it was... I made certain that they understood
that Laurie did have the right to say anything she wanted to say.
love, Valerie
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 8:04:48 PM !!!First Boot!!!, starsuncloud@...
writes:
to a small part of the conscious but not totally gone.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
>That was Beth, not Nancy, and I'd agree with the above statement. Banished
> I disagree. He can be quieted, but not banished. He is part of who you are
> Nancy.
> I love Richard Prytwosky's (hope that's spelled right) view on that. He
> says
> you don't erase the old tapes, they're part of you. But you can choose to
> quiet them and change your reactions to them.
>
>
to a small part of the conscious but not totally gone.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
> I do have a question though......what would any of you do if yourin laws
> kissed the children on the lips when they visit and your kidssaid
> "yuck.I don't like it." AND talking didn't seem to change anythingabout or
> because they either felt it was too small an issue to worry
> felt the kids did not have the right to say that?I would tell the inlaws nicely, once, that my children didn't like
being kissed on the lips. I'd say it with smiling goodwill.
The next time we went over, I'd be right there by my child and
reminding them if necessary, before they could do it, nicely,
smiling, that my child preferred not to be kissed on the lips.
I'd also teach my children to hold out their hands for handshakes
as people come in to greet them, or to turn their cheek to the
oncoming kiss. Hard to hit that moving target. <g>
Children have a right to say what is done or not done to their own
bodies. Teaching children to be "polite" because the person is
older and a relative is also potentially teaching them to tolerate
any sexual abuse that comes along.
Pam
marji
At 00:16 10/26/02 +0000, you wrote:
bright orange lipstick, and on greeting us, she'd give each of us a big
sloppy, slimy kiss on the cheek, leaving an orange glob of lipstick. Now,
here's the killer: She'd stand back, and seeing the orange glob, lick her
thumb and then proceed to wipe off the evidence. YUCK!
I got her back, though, at my brother's wedding when I was 25! Ahhh, sweet
revenge! <g> I felt like the hero of all us cousins who had endured that
double humiliation stoically because, you know, we kids did not have a
voice or a champion back in those unenlightened days.
Marji, a.k.a. Liam's Champion
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I do have a question though......what would any of you do if your in lawsThis reminds me of an aunt of mine in the 1960s. She used to wear this
>kissed the children on the lips when they visit and your kids said "yuck.I
>don't like it." AND talking didn't seem to change anything because they
>either felt it was too small an issue to worry about or felt the kids did
>not have the right to say that?
bright orange lipstick, and on greeting us, she'd give each of us a big
sloppy, slimy kiss on the cheek, leaving an orange glob of lipstick. Now,
here's the killer: She'd stand back, and seeing the orange glob, lick her
thumb and then proceed to wipe off the evidence. YUCK!
I got her back, though, at my brother's wedding when I was 25! Ahhh, sweet
revenge! <g> I felt like the hero of all us cousins who had endured that
double humiliation stoically because, you know, we kids did not have a
voice or a champion back in those unenlightened days.
Marji, a.k.a. Liam's Champion
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:26:34 -0000 "Valerie" <valfitz@...> writes:
Rain has had issues with her dad respecting her physical boundaries ever
since he got out of prison, when she was almost 4. He ends up begging her
for a hug and a kiss at the end of most visits, and she gets really
uncomfortable but says no most of the time and sticks to her guns. We've
discussed it - his take on it is that he's her dad and *needs* some
physical affection from her, that he "deserves" this from his daughter.
Arrrghhh. Once he waited until she was strapped in her carseat and then
gave her a big kiss, and I was just so furious with him. He just never
"got it". I tried to draw parallels between this and her telling some
boyfriend at 16 that no, she didn't want to kiss him - shouldn't her
wishes be respected. His response was "But I'm her dad." This is why I
wouldn't let him be alone with her for years, too...
Now that she's older, we talk some about how her dad really has no one
else in his life except for her, and that he sometimes expects her to
fill all of his needs even though that's not her job. He also tends to
see love as something that has to be demonstrated to be seen - love means
getting and giving presents and physical affection to him. We talk about
ways to help him feel more secure that feel comfortable for her - she
likes to bake spice cakes for him, and draw pictures sometimes. I try to
balance doing things for him with not feeling like taking care of him is
her responsibility, which is a fine line. At almost 10, she's a lot more
aware of things, she knows that he's homeless, and worries about him.
Dar
> That did happen to Laurie when she was young and as the relativeGood for her! And nice to see you here - I remmeber you from Edgy!
> came towards her with pursed lips, Laurie said, "I don't kiss. I
> hug." The relative looked shocked then hugged her. The relative
> looked at me and my look confirmed Laurie's rights.
Rain has had issues with her dad respecting her physical boundaries ever
since he got out of prison, when she was almost 4. He ends up begging her
for a hug and a kiss at the end of most visits, and she gets really
uncomfortable but says no most of the time and sticks to her guns. We've
discussed it - his take on it is that he's her dad and *needs* some
physical affection from her, that he "deserves" this from his daughter.
Arrrghhh. Once he waited until she was strapped in her carseat and then
gave her a big kiss, and I was just so furious with him. He just never
"got it". I tried to draw parallels between this and her telling some
boyfriend at 16 that no, she didn't want to kiss him - shouldn't her
wishes be respected. His response was "But I'm her dad." This is why I
wouldn't let him be alone with her for years, too...
Now that she's older, we talk some about how her dad really has no one
else in his life except for her, and that he sometimes expects her to
fill all of his needs even though that's not her job. He also tends to
see love as something that has to be demonstrated to be seen - love means
getting and giving presents and physical affection to him. We talk about
ways to help him feel more secure that feel comfortable for her - she
likes to bake spice cakes for him, and draw pictures sometimes. I try to
balance doing things for him with not feeling like taking care of him is
her responsibility, which is a fine line. At almost 10, she's a lot more
aware of things, she knows that he's homeless, and worries about him.
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 7:42:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
That was Beth, not Nancy, and I'd agree with the above statement. Banished
to a small part of the conscious but not totally gone. >>
Sorry Beth. You both had such bad childhood memories, it made me so sad.
I'm glad you want to be such a wonderful parent.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
That was Beth, not Nancy, and I'd agree with the above statement. Banished
to a small part of the conscious but not totally gone. >>
Sorry Beth. You both had such bad childhood memories, it made me so sad.
I'm glad you want to be such a wonderful parent.
Ren
Betsy
**
Now that she's older, we talk some about how her dad really has no one
else in his life except for her, and that he sometimes expects her to
fill all of his needs even though that's not her job. He also tends to
see love as something that has to be demonstrated to be seen - love means
getting and giving presents and physical affection to him.**
Maybe she could give him friendly little punches in the upper arm?
(Like guys do to each other.)
And, by all means, give her a bigger budget for getting him presents if
it will ease off the pressure to give smoochies.
Does anyone remember the title of a book about different "languages of
love" that discussed different forms of affection being more meaningful
to different people?
Betsy
Now that she's older, we talk some about how her dad really has no one
else in his life except for her, and that he sometimes expects her to
fill all of his needs even though that's not her job. He also tends to
see love as something that has to be demonstrated to be seen - love means
getting and giving presents and physical affection to him.**
Maybe she could give him friendly little punches in the upper arm?
(Like guys do to each other.)
And, by all means, give her a bigger budget for getting him presents if
it will ease off the pressure to give smoochies.
Does anyone remember the title of a book about different "languages of
love" that discussed different forms of affection being more meaningful
to different people?
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 8:30:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
marji@... writes:
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji@... writes:
> I got her back, though, at my brother's wedding when I was 25! Ahhh, sweetYeah, but you didn't tell us what you did! <beg>
> revenge! <g> I felt like the hero of all us cousins who had endured that
> double humiliation stoically because, you know, we kids did not have a
> voice or a champion back in those unenlightened days.
>
> Marji, a.k.a. Liam's Champion
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 9:54:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
courage to post what she did. All through this spanking debate I wanted so
badly to say what happened to me, but just couldn't. So thanks Beth.
~Nancy who most times, needs to see someone stronger and further on the path
being brave.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> <<I'm glad (not that Beth had a horrible childhood like me) that Beth had the
> That was Beth, not Nancy, and I'd agree with the above statement. Banished
>
> to a small part of the conscious but not totally gone. >>
>
> Sorry Beth. You both had such bad childhood memories, it made me so sad.
> I'm glad you want to be such a wonderful parent.
>
> Ren
courage to post what she did. All through this spanking debate I wanted so
badly to say what happened to me, but just couldn't. So thanks Beth.
~Nancy who most times, needs to see someone stronger and further on the path
being brave.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]