other sides of stories
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 10:50:21 PM, mikeebb@... writes:
<< I realize that. I just posted because there is another side to the
story and I thought that a more narrow definition of spanking (versus
hitting and beating) would clarify the other side. >>
We all know the other side, Mike. You're not telling us anything new at all.
We know about Jesus, too. Many here are former fundamentalists. Some are
currently fundamentalists. But I doubt there's anyone here who learned
anything new about grace or Jesus or Baptists from your posts. But those who
were already irritated with proselytization are more irritated now.
I believe that the main objection to the UN's proclamation (or whatever
status it has) on Rights of the Child is among fundamentalist Christians who
want to protect their right to whip children.
That's pretty embarrassing for those in the U.S. who would prefer for them to
just stop, that in front of all the other countries our country is saying,
"NO, children don't have rights."
So you came here looking for support. Go to the Christian homeschooling
boards if you want supporters for the rights of spankers.
<< Even if they argue with her
or oppose her like Myranda is accused of doing, in that situation she
will also not YELL or scold. She only does it online. >>
I scolded a mom at the library for spanking her child. I told a grown
teenaged boy who had come to my house to get money from his mother that if he
wanted to talk to his mom that way (he was being hateful to her in front of
some other homeschooling families) he needed to go to HER house to do it,
because I didn't want him doing it at my house. He was stunned, but he said
"okay," and got the money and left.
I will speak up when I think someone is harming another person.
I will tell my children when I think they're wrong, but my children are more
responsive than you and Myranda are to discussion of important issues. If one
of my kids started to defend spanking, I might raise my voice. But there's
no earthly reason they would. When they've seen it they've been appalled and
said things like "Why can't she think of something better to do?" or "That
kid wasn't hurting ANYTHING, doing [whatever it was]."
Insulting our integrity, Mike, will not defend your position. It only makes
you look desperate.
Sandra
<< I realize that. I just posted because there is another side to the
story and I thought that a more narrow definition of spanking (versus
hitting and beating) would clarify the other side. >>
We all know the other side, Mike. You're not telling us anything new at all.
We know about Jesus, too. Many here are former fundamentalists. Some are
currently fundamentalists. But I doubt there's anyone here who learned
anything new about grace or Jesus or Baptists from your posts. But those who
were already irritated with proselytization are more irritated now.
I believe that the main objection to the UN's proclamation (or whatever
status it has) on Rights of the Child is among fundamentalist Christians who
want to protect their right to whip children.
That's pretty embarrassing for those in the U.S. who would prefer for them to
just stop, that in front of all the other countries our country is saying,
"NO, children don't have rights."
So you came here looking for support. Go to the Christian homeschooling
boards if you want supporters for the rights of spankers.
<< Even if they argue with her
or oppose her like Myranda is accused of doing, in that situation she
will also not YELL or scold. She only does it online. >>
I scolded a mom at the library for spanking her child. I told a grown
teenaged boy who had come to my house to get money from his mother that if he
wanted to talk to his mom that way (he was being hateful to her in front of
some other homeschooling families) he needed to go to HER house to do it,
because I didn't want him doing it at my house. He was stunned, but he said
"okay," and got the money and left.
I will speak up when I think someone is harming another person.
I will tell my children when I think they're wrong, but my children are more
responsive than you and Myranda are to discussion of important issues. If one
of my kids started to defend spanking, I might raise my voice. But there's
no earthly reason they would. When they've seen it they've been appalled and
said things like "Why can't she think of something better to do?" or "That
kid wasn't hurting ANYTHING, doing [whatever it was]."
Insulting our integrity, Mike, will not defend your position. It only makes
you look desperate.
Sandra
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Sandra said" I believe that the main objection to the UN's
proclamation (or whatever
status it has) on Rights of the Child is among fundamentalist
Christians who
want to protect their right to whip children."
In response I would note that while there may (I know of none) be
groups who oppose the treaty because of spanking, there are other
reasons to find that the treaty is not acceptable, such as the no
parental right to notice of abortion. as explained in the
International Planned Parenthood Federation brochure on it:
. decide yourself whether to be sexually active or
not
. enjoy a safe and healthy sex life in which you
protect yourself and are protected by your partner
against disease and illness
. feel completely well and happy in your body and
your mind
. decide if, when and how many children to have
... .
If you tell a medical person or a teacher something that you don'
t want anyone else to know, then he or she should respect your
privacy. "
LINK:
http://www.ippf.org/youth/pdf/young_people.pdf
proclamation (or whatever
status it has) on Rights of the Child is among fundamentalist
Christians who
want to protect their right to whip children."
In response I would note that while there may (I know of none) be
groups who oppose the treaty because of spanking, there are other
reasons to find that the treaty is not acceptable, such as the no
parental right to notice of abortion. as explained in the
International Planned Parenthood Federation brochure on it:
. decide yourself whether to be sexually active or
not
. enjoy a safe and healthy sex life in which you
protect yourself and are protected by your partner
against disease and illness
. feel completely well and happy in your body and
your mind
. decide if, when and how many children to have
... .
If you tell a medical person or a teacher something that you don'
t want anyone else to know, then he or she should respect your
privacy. "
LINK:
http://www.ippf.org/youth/pdf/young_people.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:59 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] other sides of stories
|
| In a message dated 10/22/02 10:50:21 PM, mikeebb@...
writes:
|
| << I realize that. I just posted because there is another side
to the
| story and I thought that a more narrow definition of spanking
(versus
| hitting and beating) would clarify the other side. >>
|
| We all know the other side, Mike. You're not telling us
anything new at all.
| We know about Jesus, too. Many here are former
fundamentalists. Some are
| currently fundamentalists. But I doubt there's anyone here who
learned
| anything new about grace or Jesus or Baptists from your posts.
But those who
| were already irritated with proselytization are more irritated
now.
|
| I believe that the main objection to the UN's proclamation (or
whatever
| status it has) on Rights of the Child is among fundamentalist
Christians who
| want to protect their right to whip children.
|
| That's pretty embarrassing for those in the U.S. who would
prefer for them to
| just stop, that in front of all the other countries our country
is saying,
| "NO, children don't have rights."
|
| So you came here looking for support. Go to the Christian
homeschooling
| boards if you want supporters for the rights of spankers.
|
| << Even if they argue with her
| or oppose her like Myranda is accused of doing, in that
situation she
| will also not YELL or scold. She only does it online. >>
|
| I scolded a mom at the library for spanking her child. I told
a grown
| teenaged boy who had come to my house to get money from his
mother that if he
| wanted to talk to his mom that way (he was being hateful to her
in front of
| some other homeschooling families) he needed to go to HER house
to do it,
| because I didn't want him doing it at my house. He was
stunned, but he said
| "okay," and got the money and left.
|
| I will speak up when I think someone is harming another person.
|
| I will tell my children when I think they're wrong, but my
children are more
| responsive than you and Myranda are to discussion of important
issues. If one
| of my kids started to defend spanking, I might raise my voice.
But there's
| no earthly reason they would. When they've seen it they've
been appalled and
| said things like "Why can't she think of something better to
do?" or "That
| kid wasn't hurting ANYTHING, doing [whatever it was]."
|
| Insulting our integrity, Mike, will not defend your position.
It only makes
| you look desperate.
|
| Sandra
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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line! ~~~~
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| If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll
(fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener
(HEM-Editor@...).
|
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|
|
|
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 7:15:05 AM, dcannon@... writes:
<< there are other
reasons to find that the treaty is not acceptable, such as the no
parental right to notice of abortion. as explained in the
International Planned Parenthood Federation brochure on it:
I am dead serious in asking.
Why would a parent who knows what it is like to hold a child force one of
THEIR children to come to term, have a baby and give it up for adoption?
THAT is too much punishment for a mistake.
I'm sick to the core of me of stories of girls having been forced to give up
a baby.
And now the law says the father has to agree to an adoption. A couple who
came to the conference in Houston a few months ago were at the point of
adopting an infant, and when the father was contacted ( a sailor, on a navy
ship somewhere) he said no, he wanted to raise the baby.
So the baby boy went to the sailor's parents, and after several months (less
than a year) he decided no, he couldn't really take care of the baby and the
adoption should proceed.
Everyone lost out--the mother, the sperm-donor, the adoptive parents, and the
baby.
Perhaps our arbitrary and traditional 18 and 21 are NOT the ages at which a
person should be able to make decisions about his or her own life, but maybe
when they can reproduce they should have the right of decision over what
happens.
Parents who want to tell their children NOTHING about sex or reproduction
then want to control the outcome? Why?
Sandra
<< there are other
reasons to find that the treaty is not acceptable, such as the no
parental right to notice of abortion. as explained in the
International Planned Parenthood Federation brochure on it:
>>Why would that bother a parent?
I am dead serious in asking.
Why would a parent who knows what it is like to hold a child force one of
THEIR children to come to term, have a baby and give it up for adoption?
THAT is too much punishment for a mistake.
I'm sick to the core of me of stories of girls having been forced to give up
a baby.
And now the law says the father has to agree to an adoption. A couple who
came to the conference in Houston a few months ago were at the point of
adopting an infant, and when the father was contacted ( a sailor, on a navy
ship somewhere) he said no, he wanted to raise the baby.
So the baby boy went to the sailor's parents, and after several months (less
than a year) he decided no, he couldn't really take care of the baby and the
adoption should proceed.
Everyone lost out--the mother, the sperm-donor, the adoptive parents, and the
baby.
Perhaps our arbitrary and traditional 18 and 21 are NOT the ages at which a
person should be able to make decisions about his or her own life, but maybe
when they can reproduce they should have the right of decision over what
happens.
Parents who want to tell their children NOTHING about sex or reproduction
then want to control the outcome? Why?
Sandra
Myranda
Sandra, why would you assume that the child would be put up for adoption? Why would you assume that parents of pregnant teens never told their children about sex? Thus far, I've agreed with all of your principles if not the way you state them/carry them out, but seriously, this just brought tears to my eyes and my stomach is in knots.
If a grandmother is willing to take and raise a grandchild as her own, why should she not be given that chance? Why should the daughter who is still under her parents roof and usually still 100% supported by her parents, be allowed to decide the fate of a child totally on her own, without a clear thought in her head and fear in her heart? Why shouldn't a father have a right to his own child?
Abortion has it's place, but not as a method of birth control born out of fear of the unknown! Do you realize how many more babies would die just because Suzy doesn't want to tell Mom she's pregnant? Is that a good enough reason to justify killing a child, denying that little person a right to life? Excuse me while I go vomit.
Myranda
From: SandraDodd@...
Why would that bother a parent?
I am dead serious in asking.
Why would a parent who knows what it is like to hold a child force one of
THEIR children to come to term, have a baby and give it up for adoption?
THAT is too much punishment for a mistake.
I'm sick to the core of me of stories of girls having been forced to give up
a baby.
And now the law says the father has to agree to an adoption. A couple who
came to the conference in Houston a few months ago were at the point of
adopting an infant, and when the father was contacted ( a sailor, on a navy
ship somewhere) he said no, he wanted to raise the baby.
So the baby boy went to the sailor's parents, and after several months (less
than a year) he decided no, he couldn't really take care of the baby and the
adoption should proceed.
Everyone lost out--the mother, the sperm-donor, the adoptive parents, and the
baby.
Perhaps our arbitrary and traditional 18 and 21 are NOT the ages at which a
person should be able to make decisions about his or her own life, but maybe
when they can reproduce they should have the right of decision over what
happens.
Parents who want to tell their children NOTHING about sex or reproduction
then want to control the outcome? Why?
Sandra
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If a grandmother is willing to take and raise a grandchild as her own, why should she not be given that chance? Why should the daughter who is still under her parents roof and usually still 100% supported by her parents, be allowed to decide the fate of a child totally on her own, without a clear thought in her head and fear in her heart? Why shouldn't a father have a right to his own child?
Abortion has it's place, but not as a method of birth control born out of fear of the unknown! Do you realize how many more babies would die just because Suzy doesn't want to tell Mom she's pregnant? Is that a good enough reason to justify killing a child, denying that little person a right to life? Excuse me while I go vomit.
Myranda
From: SandraDodd@...
Why would that bother a parent?
I am dead serious in asking.
Why would a parent who knows what it is like to hold a child force one of
THEIR children to come to term, have a baby and give it up for adoption?
THAT is too much punishment for a mistake.
I'm sick to the core of me of stories of girls having been forced to give up
a baby.
And now the law says the father has to agree to an adoption. A couple who
came to the conference in Houston a few months ago were at the point of
adopting an infant, and when the father was contacted ( a sailor, on a navy
ship somewhere) he said no, he wanted to raise the baby.
So the baby boy went to the sailor's parents, and after several months (less
than a year) he decided no, he couldn't really take care of the baby and the
adoption should proceed.
Everyone lost out--the mother, the sperm-donor, the adoptive parents, and the
baby.
Perhaps our arbitrary and traditional 18 and 21 are NOT the ages at which a
person should be able to make decisions about his or her own life, but maybe
when they can reproduce they should have the right of decision over what
happens.
Parents who want to tell their children NOTHING about sex or reproduction
then want to control the outcome? Why?
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Many folks, not just parents and not just those who oppose
abortion, might reasonably object to a policy that favors a child
making a major medical decision - including not only whether, but
which provider and with what funds - in the absence of those who
love them best and have more experience with alternatives.
Further, even those who think that a minor might be able to make
those decisions in some cultures can reasonably object to a
blanket provision that in all cultures and in all circumstances
the UN imposed decision making process should be required as a
matter of law.
abortion, might reasonably object to a policy that favors a child
making a major medical decision - including not only whether, but
which provider and with what funds - in the absence of those who
love them best and have more experience with alternatives.
Further, even those who think that a minor might be able to make
those decisions in some cultures can reasonably object to a
blanket provision that in all cultures and in all circumstances
the UN imposed decision making process should be required as a
matter of law.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] other sides of stories
|
| In a message dated 10/25/02 7:15:05 AM, dcannon@...
writes:
|
| << there are other
| reasons to find that the treaty is not acceptable, such as the
no
| parental right to notice of abortion. as explained in the
| International Planned Parenthood Federation brochure on it:
| >>
|
| Why would that bother a parent?
|
| I am dead serious in asking.
|
| Why would a parent who knows what it is like to hold a child
force one of
| THEIR children to come to term, have a baby and give it up for
adoption?
|
| THAT is too much punishment for a mistake.
|
| I'm sick to the core of me of stories of girls having been
forced to give up
| a baby.
|
| And now the law says the father has to agree to an adoption. A
couple who
| came to the conference in Houston a few months ago were at the
point of
| adopting an infant, and when the father was contacted ( a
sailor, on a navy
| ship somewhere) he said no, he wanted to raise the baby.
|
| So the baby boy went to the sailor's parents, and after several
months (less
| than a year) he decided no, he couldn't really take care of the
baby and the
| adoption should proceed.
|
| Everyone lost out--the mother, the sperm-donor, the adoptive
parents, and the
| baby.
|
| Perhaps our arbitrary and traditional 18 and 21 are NOT the
ages at which a
| person should be able to make decisions about his or her own
life, but maybe
| when they can reproduce they should have the right of decision
over what
| happens.
|
| Parents who want to tell their children NOTHING about sex or
reproduction
| then want to control the outcome? Why?
|
| Sandra
|
|
|
|
|
|
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| ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject
line! ~~~~
|
| If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll
(fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener
(HEM-Editor@...).
|
| To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
address an email to:
| [email protected]
|
| Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 11:42:37 AM, myrandab@... writes:
<< Why shouldn't a father have a right to his own child?
the baby is up for adoption, he shouldn't have any rights at all over that
baby because he didn't marry the mother.
I'm assuming that this new "right" of fathers came about because the states
are tracking bio-dads down and suing them for child support rather than just
give the mom and baby welfare money.
If he and the mother didn't have a couple relationship and didn't intend to
have a baby, and he's gone and uninformed, he is only the father by a very,
very slim thread.
<<Sandra, why would you assume that the child would be put up for adoption?
Why would you assume that parents of pregnant teens never told their children
about sex?>>
Do us all a favor and don't pretend you don't know that happens a LOT in
conservative Christian families.
<<Do you realize how many more babies would die just because Suzy doesn't
want to tell Mom she's pregnant? >>
Do you know how many teenaged girls kill themselves rather than tell their
dads that they're pregnant?
<<Abortion has it's place, but not as a method of birth control born out of
fear of the unknown! Do you realize how many more babies would die just
because Suzy doesn't want to tell Mom she's pregnant? Is that a good enough
reason to justify killing a child, denying that little person a right to
life? Excuse me while I go vomit.>>
Instead of vomiting and reading some more, how about you go spend time with
your children?
Sandra
<< Why shouldn't a father have a right to his own child?
>>If a boy has sex with a girl, never knows she's pregnant, and is told after
the baby is up for adoption, he shouldn't have any rights at all over that
baby because he didn't marry the mother.
I'm assuming that this new "right" of fathers came about because the states
are tracking bio-dads down and suing them for child support rather than just
give the mom and baby welfare money.
If he and the mother didn't have a couple relationship and didn't intend to
have a baby, and he's gone and uninformed, he is only the father by a very,
very slim thread.
<<Sandra, why would you assume that the child would be put up for adoption?
Why would you assume that parents of pregnant teens never told their children
about sex?>>
Do us all a favor and don't pretend you don't know that happens a LOT in
conservative Christian families.
<<Do you realize how many more babies would die just because Suzy doesn't
want to tell Mom she's pregnant? >>
Do you know how many teenaged girls kill themselves rather than tell their
dads that they're pregnant?
<<Abortion has it's place, but not as a method of birth control born out of
fear of the unknown! Do you realize how many more babies would die just
because Suzy doesn't want to tell Mom she's pregnant? Is that a good enough
reason to justify killing a child, denying that little person a right to
life? Excuse me while I go vomit.>>
Instead of vomiting and reading some more, how about you go spend time with
your children?
Sandra
[email protected]
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:39:01 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
thousands of dollars, if the mother decides *not* to have an abortion.
I'm against abortion in nearly all circumstances - I would say it's okay
in cases similar to ones where a procedure that necessarily results in
one of a pair of conjoined twins dying would be okay. I don't really
have any desire to argue the abortion question on this list, but I wanted
to reply to this. I think both biological parents on a child should have
the right to say, at or before birth, that they want to be parents or
don't want to be parents. If abortion is legal, then I think both parents
should have to agree, and neither should want to raise the child (and be
a parent) or place the child for adoption. If the dad can be forced to
pay, he should be allowed to chose whether or not he wants to be a
parent during the same time frame the mother gets to chose. MHO.
I've told Rain for years that I'd be really, really upset if she had an
abortion, and that if she becomes pregnant I will do whatever she wants
me to do to help her avoid that, from raising the child myself to helping
her out while she's pregnant or whatever. I'd make the same offer to most
kids I know...
Dar
> If he and the mother didn't have a couple relationship and didn'tintend to
> have a baby, and he's gone and uninformed, he is only the father by avery,
> very slim thread.Except that he's father enough to potentially have to pay hundreds of
>
thousands of dollars, if the mother decides *not* to have an abortion.
I'm against abortion in nearly all circumstances - I would say it's okay
in cases similar to ones where a procedure that necessarily results in
one of a pair of conjoined twins dying would be okay. I don't really
have any desire to argue the abortion question on this list, but I wanted
to reply to this. I think both biological parents on a child should have
the right to say, at or before birth, that they want to be parents or
don't want to be parents. If abortion is legal, then I think both parents
should have to agree, and neither should want to raise the child (and be
a parent) or place the child for adoption. If the dad can be forced to
pay, he should be allowed to chose whether or not he wants to be a
parent during the same time frame the mother gets to chose. MHO.
I've told Rain for years that I'd be really, really upset if she had an
abortion, and that if she becomes pregnant I will do whatever she wants
me to do to help her avoid that, from raising the child myself to helping
her out while she's pregnant or whatever. I'd make the same offer to most
kids I know...
Dar
joanna514
If abortion is legal, then I think both parents
other than me, that I had to go through 9 months of pregnancy and
labor and all that, that does to my body, I would freak out!!
NOT that I wouldn't do it again if I became pregnant. But the
thought of someone *making* me do it, is inconcievable.
I can imagine the multitude of negative feelings I would have.
It's just not a good idea...
Joanna
> should have to agree, and neither should want to raise the child(and be
> a parent) or place the child for adoption. If the dad can be forcedto
> pay, he should be allowed to chose whether or not he wants to be aI've been through 5 childbirths. If someone had a right to decide,
> parent during the same time frame the mother gets to chose. MHO.
>
other than me, that I had to go through 9 months of pregnancy and
labor and all that, that does to my body, I would freak out!!
NOT that I wouldn't do it again if I became pregnant. But the
thought of someone *making* me do it, is inconcievable.
I can imagine the multitude of negative feelings I would have.
It's just not a good idea...
Joanna