Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: more and more abuse This is long.
[email protected]
For those who either believe child abuse isn't as prevalent as reported by
the rest of us, please read the following. There are more than just the
effects of physical pain to a child's person, there are the long-term effects
such as a predilection towards being an abuser when grown, early pregnancy,
drug addictions, the need for state support, poor academic performance, the
list goes on and on.
Myranda says, don't step in, its not our business, we can't know if the child
is being hit hard or soft, only call and report if you know the child is
being abused. But according to her, how can we know? It is NOT our
responsibility to be judge and jury. It is our responsibility to say, THAT'S
NOT RIGHT! STOP! If we don't stand up for children, and they see us not
standing up for them, then how can we expect them to stand up for themselves?
According to Myranda, the child would say no, stop. I'm sorry, but if I see a
child being hit, and that child looks into my eyes and I look away, the
message I just sent to that child is that what is happening to her/him is
okay by me, and my refusal to step in tells that child that they shouldn't do
anything either. According to Myranda, people who abuse probably just want
what's best for their families.
I checked the references listed, for the first site, and all were from 1998
or newer and most were from 2001 or newer.
<A HREF="http://www.ncvc.org/stats/ca_csa.htm">Statistics: Child Abuse and Child Sexual Abuse - (National Center for
Victims of Crime)</A>
Statistics: Child Abuse and Child Sexual Abuse
An estimated 984,000 children were victims of maltreatment nationwide in
1998.Of these,53.5 percent suffered neglect;2.4 percent were medically
neglected;22.7 percent were physically abused;and 6 percent were emotionally
maltreated (U.S.Department of Health and Human Services, Children ’s Bureau,
2000).
The rate of child maltreatment in 1998 was 12.9 per thousand children in the
population (Ibid).
In 1998,approximately 103,845 children were sexually abused;sexual abuse of
children occurred at the rate of 1.49 children per thousand (Ibid).
Five to fifteen percent of all males,and fifteen to thirty percent of all
females report some type of exposure to child sexual abuse (Brown, 2000).
Based on reports to law enforcement,children under 12 constituted roughly 50
percent of all victims of forcible sodomy,sexual assault with object,and
forcible fondling (Snyder, 2000).
The results of the 1999 annual survey by Prevent Child Abuse show that 41
percent of the parents reported having spanked or hit their child during the
past 12 months,38 percent said they had sworn at or insulted the child,and 51
percent indicated that they had failed to meet the child ’s emotional
needs.Two percent of the respondents reported kicking,biting, or punching
their child,while six percent said they had hit their child with an object
(Daro,1999).
Children (ages 17 and younger) are more likely to be kidnaped by
acquaintances who are not family members than by complete strangers.In 49
percent of the juvenile abductions,family members were responsible. About 27
percent involve non-family acquaintances,and 24 percent were attributed to
strangers (Finkelhor, Kidnaping, 2000).
A longitudinal comparative study of 1,575 people,908 of which were abused or
neglected in childhood,and the remainder of which were the control
group,shows that the abuse/neglected group scored significantly lower on an
IQ scale,held significantly more menial and semiskilled jobs, had 1.6 times
higher odds of committing crimes as adults,and were significantly more likely
to have attempted asuicide and developed antisocial personality disorders
(Widom, 2000).
If this wasn't convincing, read on!
<A HREF="http://www.yesican.org/statisticsCA.html">CHILD ABUSE STATISTICS</A>
CHILD ABUSE In 1999, an estimated 3,244,000 children were reported to Child
Protective Services (CPS) agencies as alleged victims of child maltreatment.
Child abuse reports have maintained a steady growth for the past ten years,
with the total number of reports nationwide increasing 45% since 1987 (Nation
Committee for the Prevention of Child Abuse (NCPCA) 2000 Annual Fifty State
Survey). Neglect represents the most common type of reported and
substantiated form of maltreatment. In 1996, 25 states provided the
following breakdown for reported cases: 62% involved neglect, 25% physical
abuse, 7% sexual abuse, 3% emotional maltreatment and 4% other. For
substantiated cases, 31 states gave the following breakdowns: 60% neglect,
23% physical, 9% sexual, 4% emotional maltreatment and 5% other (NCPCA's 1996
Annual Fifty State Survey). In 1999, an estimated 1,401 child abuse and
neglect related fatalities were confirmed by CPS agencies, nearly 4 every day
. Since 1985, the rate of child abuse fatalities has increased by 39%.
Based on these numbers, more than three children die each day as a result of
child abuse or neglect (NCPCA's 1996 Annual Fifty State Survey). According
to information from at least 18 states that were able to report the type of
maltreatment which caused the child's death for at least one of the past
three years. Approximately 54% of the deaths were due to physical abuse while
43% resulted from neglect. Young children remain at high risk for loss of
life. Based on data from all three years, this study found 82% of these
children were under the age of five while an alarming 42% were under the age
of one at the time of their death (NCPCA's 1996 Annual Fifty State Survey).
The U.S. Advisory Board reported that near fatal abuse and neglect each year
leave "18,000 permanently disabled children, tens of thousands of victims
overwhelmed by lifelong psychological trauma, thousands of traumatized
siblings and family members, and thousands of near-death survivors who, as
adults, continue to bear the physical and psychological scars. Some may turn
to crime or domestic violence or become abusers themselves (U.S. Advisory
Board on Child Abuse and Neglect, 1995 report, A National's Shame.)"The Third
National Incidence Study (NIS-3) of child maltreatment released by the
National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN) in the fall of 1996.The
NIS is congressionally mandated under the Child Abuse Prevention and
Treatment Act (CAPTA). The NIS collects data on children who were
investigated by child protective services (CPS) agencies and on children seen
by community professionals who were not reported to CPS or who were screened
out by CPS without investigation. The NIS studies have been published on data
collected in 1979 (NIS-1), in 1986 (NIS-2), and in 1993 (NIS-3).The NIS uses
two definitions of child maltreatment: the Harm Standard, under which
children are counted as maltreated only if they have already experienced
demonstrable harm; and the Endangerment Standard, under which children are
counted if they have experienced maltreatment that puts them at risk of
demonstrable harm. The NIS-3 gathered data from a nationally representative
sample of 5,612 community professionals in 842 agencies serving 42
counties.Finding of the NIS-3:
The estimated number of children seriously injured by all forms of
maltreatment quadrupled between 1986 and 1993, from 141,700 to 565,000 (a
299% increase).
Considering the Harm Standard:
The estimated number of sexually abused children increased 83%;
The number of physically neglected children rose 102%;
There was a 333 % increase in the estimated number of emotionally neglected
children; and
The estimated number of physically abused children rose 42%.
CPS investigated only 28% of children whose maltreatment met the Harm
Standard.
Although the percentage of children whose abuse or neglect was investigated
declined, the actual number of children investigated remained constant.
CPS investigated only 26 percent of the seriously injured and 26 percent of
the moderately injured children.
Girls are sexually abused three times more often than boys.
Boys are at a greater risk of serious injury and of emotional neglect than
are girls.
The incidence of fatally injured girls declined slightly, while the
incidence of fatally injured boys rose.
Found no race differences in maltreatment incidence.
Poverty is significantly related to incidence rates in nearly every category
of maltreatment. Compared to children whose families earned $30,000 or more,
children in families with annual incomes below $15,000 were:
More than 22 times more likely to experience maltreatment under the Harm
Standard and 25 times more likely under the Endangerment Standard.
More than 44 times more likely to be neglected, by either definitional
standard.
Over 22 times more likely to be seriously injured using either definitional
standard.
60 times more likely to die from maltreatment under the Harm
Standard.(Executive Summary of the Third National Incidence Study of Child
Abuse and Neglect, September 1996 and Reid, T. (1996). News NIS-3 Data. APSAC
Advisor, 9 (3).)
Children whose parents abuse drugs or alcohol are put at a greater risk for
violent victimization (National Commission on Children, 1993).
With the exception of homicide, children and youths suffer more victimization
than do adults in virtually every category, including physical abuse, sibling
assault, bullying, sexual abuse, and rape (American Psychological Association
Commission on Violence and Youth, 1993).
It is estimated that children with disabilities are 4 to 10 times more
vulnerable to sexual abuse than their non-disabled peers (National Resource
Center on Child Sexual Abuse, 1992).
In over 9000 divorces in 12 states, child sexual abuse allegations were made
in less then 2% of contested divorces involving child custody (Association of
Family Conciliation Courts, 1990). Survivors:It is estimated that there are
60 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse in America today (Forward,
1993)Long term effects of child abuse include fear, anxiety, depression,
anger, hostility, inappropriate sexual behavior, poor self esteem, tendency
toward substance abuse and difficulty with close relationships (Browne &
Finkelhor, 1986).
Clinical findings of adult victims of sexual abuse include problems in
interpersonal relationships associated with an underlying mistrust.
Generally, adult victims of incest have a severely strained relationship with
their parents that is marked by feelings of mistrust, fear, ambivalence,
hatred, and betrayal. These feelings may extend to all family members (Tsai
and Wagner, 1978).
Guilt is experienced by almost all victims (Tsai and Wagner, 1978).
If a child victim does not resolve the trauma, sexuality may become an area
of adult conflict (Courtois & Watts, 1982).
Adults who viewed domestic violence in the home as children have a greater
difficulty holding hobs, maintaining relationships with their peers and have
a higher risk of developing mental health disorders (Patterson, 1992).
Men appear to be prone to blame themselves for any sexual abuse they may have
experienced as children (Mendel, 1993.) Abusers:The typical child sex
offender molests an average of 117 children, most of who do not report the
offence (National Institute of Mental Health, 1988).It is estimated that
approximately 71 % of child sex offenders are under 35 and knew the victim at
least causally. About 80 % of these individuals fall within normal
intelligence ranges; 59% gain sexual access to their victims through,
seduction or enticement (Burgess & Groth, 1984).Stress indicators such as
unrealistic expectations of a child, unemployment and low self-esteem are
important characteristics in perpetrators of child abuse (Health & Human
Services, 1993).Approximately 60 % of the male survivors samples report at
least one of their perpetrators to be female (Mendel, 1993).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the rest of us, please read the following. There are more than just the
effects of physical pain to a child's person, there are the long-term effects
such as a predilection towards being an abuser when grown, early pregnancy,
drug addictions, the need for state support, poor academic performance, the
list goes on and on.
Myranda says, don't step in, its not our business, we can't know if the child
is being hit hard or soft, only call and report if you know the child is
being abused. But according to her, how can we know? It is NOT our
responsibility to be judge and jury. It is our responsibility to say, THAT'S
NOT RIGHT! STOP! If we don't stand up for children, and they see us not
standing up for them, then how can we expect them to stand up for themselves?
According to Myranda, the child would say no, stop. I'm sorry, but if I see a
child being hit, and that child looks into my eyes and I look away, the
message I just sent to that child is that what is happening to her/him is
okay by me, and my refusal to step in tells that child that they shouldn't do
anything either. According to Myranda, people who abuse probably just want
what's best for their families.
I checked the references listed, for the first site, and all were from 1998
or newer and most were from 2001 or newer.
<A HREF="http://www.ncvc.org/stats/ca_csa.htm">Statistics: Child Abuse and Child Sexual Abuse - (National Center for
Victims of Crime)</A>
Statistics: Child Abuse and Child Sexual Abuse
An estimated 984,000 children were victims of maltreatment nationwide in
1998.Of these,53.5 percent suffered neglect;2.4 percent were medically
neglected;22.7 percent were physically abused;and 6 percent were emotionally
maltreated (U.S.Department of Health and Human Services, Children ’s Bureau,
2000).
The rate of child maltreatment in 1998 was 12.9 per thousand children in the
population (Ibid).
In 1998,approximately 103,845 children were sexually abused;sexual abuse of
children occurred at the rate of 1.49 children per thousand (Ibid).
Five to fifteen percent of all males,and fifteen to thirty percent of all
females report some type of exposure to child sexual abuse (Brown, 2000).
Based on reports to law enforcement,children under 12 constituted roughly 50
percent of all victims of forcible sodomy,sexual assault with object,and
forcible fondling (Snyder, 2000).
The results of the 1999 annual survey by Prevent Child Abuse show that 41
percent of the parents reported having spanked or hit their child during the
past 12 months,38 percent said they had sworn at or insulted the child,and 51
percent indicated that they had failed to meet the child ’s emotional
needs.Two percent of the respondents reported kicking,biting, or punching
their child,while six percent said they had hit their child with an object
(Daro,1999).
Children (ages 17 and younger) are more likely to be kidnaped by
acquaintances who are not family members than by complete strangers.In 49
percent of the juvenile abductions,family members were responsible. About 27
percent involve non-family acquaintances,and 24 percent were attributed to
strangers (Finkelhor, Kidnaping, 2000).
A longitudinal comparative study of 1,575 people,908 of which were abused or
neglected in childhood,and the remainder of which were the control
group,shows that the abuse/neglected group scored significantly lower on an
IQ scale,held significantly more menial and semiskilled jobs, had 1.6 times
higher odds of committing crimes as adults,and were significantly more likely
to have attempted asuicide and developed antisocial personality disorders
(Widom, 2000).
If this wasn't convincing, read on!
<A HREF="http://www.yesican.org/statisticsCA.html">CHILD ABUSE STATISTICS</A>
CHILD ABUSE In 1999, an estimated 3,244,000 children were reported to Child
Protective Services (CPS) agencies as alleged victims of child maltreatment.
Child abuse reports have maintained a steady growth for the past ten years,
with the total number of reports nationwide increasing 45% since 1987 (Nation
Committee for the Prevention of Child Abuse (NCPCA) 2000 Annual Fifty State
Survey). Neglect represents the most common type of reported and
substantiated form of maltreatment. In 1996, 25 states provided the
following breakdown for reported cases: 62% involved neglect, 25% physical
abuse, 7% sexual abuse, 3% emotional maltreatment and 4% other. For
substantiated cases, 31 states gave the following breakdowns: 60% neglect,
23% physical, 9% sexual, 4% emotional maltreatment and 5% other (NCPCA's 1996
Annual Fifty State Survey). In 1999, an estimated 1,401 child abuse and
neglect related fatalities were confirmed by CPS agencies, nearly 4 every day
. Since 1985, the rate of child abuse fatalities has increased by 39%.
Based on these numbers, more than three children die each day as a result of
child abuse or neglect (NCPCA's 1996 Annual Fifty State Survey). According
to information from at least 18 states that were able to report the type of
maltreatment which caused the child's death for at least one of the past
three years. Approximately 54% of the deaths were due to physical abuse while
43% resulted from neglect. Young children remain at high risk for loss of
life. Based on data from all three years, this study found 82% of these
children were under the age of five while an alarming 42% were under the age
of one at the time of their death (NCPCA's 1996 Annual Fifty State Survey).
The U.S. Advisory Board reported that near fatal abuse and neglect each year
leave "18,000 permanently disabled children, tens of thousands of victims
overwhelmed by lifelong psychological trauma, thousands of traumatized
siblings and family members, and thousands of near-death survivors who, as
adults, continue to bear the physical and psychological scars. Some may turn
to crime or domestic violence or become abusers themselves (U.S. Advisory
Board on Child Abuse and Neglect, 1995 report, A National's Shame.)"The Third
National Incidence Study (NIS-3) of child maltreatment released by the
National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN) in the fall of 1996.The
NIS is congressionally mandated under the Child Abuse Prevention and
Treatment Act (CAPTA). The NIS collects data on children who were
investigated by child protective services (CPS) agencies and on children seen
by community professionals who were not reported to CPS or who were screened
out by CPS without investigation. The NIS studies have been published on data
collected in 1979 (NIS-1), in 1986 (NIS-2), and in 1993 (NIS-3).The NIS uses
two definitions of child maltreatment: the Harm Standard, under which
children are counted as maltreated only if they have already experienced
demonstrable harm; and the Endangerment Standard, under which children are
counted if they have experienced maltreatment that puts them at risk of
demonstrable harm. The NIS-3 gathered data from a nationally representative
sample of 5,612 community professionals in 842 agencies serving 42
counties.Finding of the NIS-3:
The estimated number of children seriously injured by all forms of
maltreatment quadrupled between 1986 and 1993, from 141,700 to 565,000 (a
299% increase).
Considering the Harm Standard:
The estimated number of sexually abused children increased 83%;
The number of physically neglected children rose 102%;
There was a 333 % increase in the estimated number of emotionally neglected
children; and
The estimated number of physically abused children rose 42%.
CPS investigated only 28% of children whose maltreatment met the Harm
Standard.
Although the percentage of children whose abuse or neglect was investigated
declined, the actual number of children investigated remained constant.
CPS investigated only 26 percent of the seriously injured and 26 percent of
the moderately injured children.
Girls are sexually abused three times more often than boys.
Boys are at a greater risk of serious injury and of emotional neglect than
are girls.
The incidence of fatally injured girls declined slightly, while the
incidence of fatally injured boys rose.
Found no race differences in maltreatment incidence.
Poverty is significantly related to incidence rates in nearly every category
of maltreatment. Compared to children whose families earned $30,000 or more,
children in families with annual incomes below $15,000 were:
More than 22 times more likely to experience maltreatment under the Harm
Standard and 25 times more likely under the Endangerment Standard.
More than 44 times more likely to be neglected, by either definitional
standard.
Over 22 times more likely to be seriously injured using either definitional
standard.
60 times more likely to die from maltreatment under the Harm
Standard.(Executive Summary of the Third National Incidence Study of Child
Abuse and Neglect, September 1996 and Reid, T. (1996). News NIS-3 Data. APSAC
Advisor, 9 (3).)
Children whose parents abuse drugs or alcohol are put at a greater risk for
violent victimization (National Commission on Children, 1993).
With the exception of homicide, children and youths suffer more victimization
than do adults in virtually every category, including physical abuse, sibling
assault, bullying, sexual abuse, and rape (American Psychological Association
Commission on Violence and Youth, 1993).
It is estimated that children with disabilities are 4 to 10 times more
vulnerable to sexual abuse than their non-disabled peers (National Resource
Center on Child Sexual Abuse, 1992).
In over 9000 divorces in 12 states, child sexual abuse allegations were made
in less then 2% of contested divorces involving child custody (Association of
Family Conciliation Courts, 1990). Survivors:It is estimated that there are
60 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse in America today (Forward,
1993)Long term effects of child abuse include fear, anxiety, depression,
anger, hostility, inappropriate sexual behavior, poor self esteem, tendency
toward substance abuse and difficulty with close relationships (Browne &
Finkelhor, 1986).
Clinical findings of adult victims of sexual abuse include problems in
interpersonal relationships associated with an underlying mistrust.
Generally, adult victims of incest have a severely strained relationship with
their parents that is marked by feelings of mistrust, fear, ambivalence,
hatred, and betrayal. These feelings may extend to all family members (Tsai
and Wagner, 1978).
Guilt is experienced by almost all victims (Tsai and Wagner, 1978).
If a child victim does not resolve the trauma, sexuality may become an area
of adult conflict (Courtois & Watts, 1982).
Adults who viewed domestic violence in the home as children have a greater
difficulty holding hobs, maintaining relationships with their peers and have
a higher risk of developing mental health disorders (Patterson, 1992).
Men appear to be prone to blame themselves for any sexual abuse they may have
experienced as children (Mendel, 1993.) Abusers:The typical child sex
offender molests an average of 117 children, most of who do not report the
offence (National Institute of Mental Health, 1988).It is estimated that
approximately 71 % of child sex offenders are under 35 and knew the victim at
least causally. About 80 % of these individuals fall within normal
intelligence ranges; 59% gain sexual access to their victims through,
seduction or enticement (Burgess & Groth, 1984).Stress indicators such as
unrealistic expectations of a child, unemployment and low self-esteem are
important characteristics in perpetrators of child abuse (Health & Human
Services, 1993).Approximately 60 % of the male survivors samples report at
least one of their perpetrators to be female (Mendel, 1993).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 12:42:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
Dnowens@... writes:
say that..." here is the direct quote from you, saying just that, after
Sandra asked you why you thought an abuser would stop abusing if no one
reported it. According to you, we just have to have faith that abusers will
stop because its the right thing to do. UGH!
~Nancy
If everyone looks the other way and the child is afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
** Because he's a parent and the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dnowens@... writes:
> According to Myranda, people who abuse probably just wantAnd Myranda, before you say that ever popular phrase of yours "No, I didn't
> what's best for their families.
say that..." here is the direct quote from you, saying just that, after
Sandra asked you why you thought an abuser would stop abusing if no one
reported it. According to you, we just have to have faith that abusers will
stop because its the right thing to do. UGH!
~Nancy
If everyone looks the other way and the child is afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
** Because he's a parent and the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Actually, what I said was that the majority of parents want what is best for their kids. That includes everyone, and is not limited to abusers. And was in response to the "why would he want to stop" part of the question.
Myranda
From: Dnowens@...
And Myranda, before you say that ever popular phrase of yours "No, I didn't
say that..." here is the direct quote from you, saying just that, after
Sandra asked you why you thought an abuser would stop abusing if no one
reported it. According to you, we just have to have faith that abusers will
stop because its the right thing to do. UGH!
~Nancy
If everyone looks the other way and the child is afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
** Because he's a parent and the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Dnowens@...
And Myranda, before you say that ever popular phrase of yours "No, I didn't
say that..." here is the direct quote from you, saying just that, after
Sandra asked you why you thought an abuser would stop abusing if no one
reported it. According to you, we just have to have faith that abusers will
stop because its the right thing to do. UGH!
~Nancy
If everyone looks the other way and the child is afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
** Because he's a parent and the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 11:42:56 PM, Dnowens@... writes:
<< Adults who viewed domestic violence in the home as children have a greater
difficulty holding hobs, maintaining relationships with their peers and have
a higher risk of developing mental health disorders (Patterson, 1992). >>
I would think that one is genetic.
Unless they found a large sample of adopted children who were known NOT to be
from parents who had those traits (and many adopted children ARE from parents
who had difficulty with relationships, whose dad was irresponsible, whose mom
got pregnant when she didn't want to), I would mark that as genetic problems.
-=-Stress indicators such as
unrealistic expectations of a child, unemployment and low self-esteem are
important characteristics in perpetrators of child abuse-=-
THAT is why I get worried when people make the blanket statement "No one
knows your child as well as you do!" Because too many parents don't know
enough about child development and what is normal to have an awareness of
what children are and aren't capable of understanding or doing or learning at
various ages. And so a five year old who can't stay dry all night and read
when the parent TELLS him "Sound it out!" gets spanked. When he should be
hugged and played with and praised, he gets told he's bad, disobedient, and
then gets hit.
Sandra
<< Adults who viewed domestic violence in the home as children have a greater
difficulty holding hobs, maintaining relationships with their peers and have
a higher risk of developing mental health disorders (Patterson, 1992). >>
I would think that one is genetic.
Unless they found a large sample of adopted children who were known NOT to be
from parents who had those traits (and many adopted children ARE from parents
who had difficulty with relationships, whose dad was irresponsible, whose mom
got pregnant when she didn't want to), I would mark that as genetic problems.
-=-Stress indicators such as
unrealistic expectations of a child, unemployment and low self-esteem are
important characteristics in perpetrators of child abuse-=-
THAT is why I get worried when people make the blanket statement "No one
knows your child as well as you do!" Because too many parents don't know
enough about child development and what is normal to have an awareness of
what children are and aren't capable of understanding or doing or learning at
various ages. And so a five year old who can't stay dry all night and read
when the parent TELLS him "Sound it out!" gets spanked. When he should be
hugged and played with and praised, he gets told he's bad, disobedient, and
then gets hit.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 7:17:29 AM Central Daylight Time,
myrandab@... writes:
abuser would want to stop if no one told him to do so, and I cut and pasted
your response, IN IT'S ENTIRETY!!!! and yet you still say "No, I didn't say
that..." Myranda, the HE in question is an abuser, the question was limited
to abusers. YOU are the one who changed it to be about all parents, yet in
the same breath claim you are just answering the part about (and I quote you
from above) "why would he want to stop part of the question" Myranda, there
was no other part to the question. Why are you insisting there was?
I'll do it one more time. Here goes...
Sandra said this ~~>>> If everyone looks the other way and the child is
afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
You said this in response ~~>>** Because he's a parent and the majority of
parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
Then in response to my post about your above statement you say this~~>>
Actually, what I said was that the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. That includes everyone, and is not limited to abusers. And was in
response to the "why would he want to stop" part of the question.
Myranda
Sandra wasn't talking about the "majority of parents" she was talking about
an abuser. You clearly state that you feel that because "he is a parent" the
he being an abuser, and since he is a parent and the majority of parents
(here you lump the abuser in with all parents) want what's best for their
child then clearly the abuser would as well. And to top it all off, we just
have to have faith. Oh gee. Well, that's just great. Thanks for your ever
enlightening on again off again ideas.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
myrandab@... writes:
> Actually, what I said was that the majority of parents want what is best forOMG!!! I quoted you exactly! I cut and pasted Sandra's question about why an
> their kids. That includes everyone, and is not limited to abusers. And was
> in response to the "why would he want to stop" part of the question.
> Myranda
abuser would want to stop if no one told him to do so, and I cut and pasted
your response, IN IT'S ENTIRETY!!!! and yet you still say "No, I didn't say
that..." Myranda, the HE in question is an abuser, the question was limited
to abusers. YOU are the one who changed it to be about all parents, yet in
the same breath claim you are just answering the part about (and I quote you
from above) "why would he want to stop part of the question" Myranda, there
was no other part to the question. Why are you insisting there was?
I'll do it one more time. Here goes...
Sandra said this ~~>>> If everyone looks the other way and the child is
afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
You said this in response ~~>>** Because he's a parent and the majority of
parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
Then in response to my post about your above statement you say this~~>>
Actually, what I said was that the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. That includes everyone, and is not limited to abusers. And was in
response to the "why would he want to stop" part of the question.
Myranda
Sandra wasn't talking about the "majority of parents" she was talking about
an abuser. You clearly state that you feel that because "he is a parent" the
he being an abuser, and since he is a parent and the majority of parents
(here you lump the abuser in with all parents) want what's best for their
child then clearly the abuser would as well. And to top it all off, we just
have to have faith. Oh gee. Well, that's just great. Thanks for your ever
enlightening on again off again ideas.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
OMG!!! I quoted you exactly! I cut and pasted Sandra's question about why an
abuser would want to stop if no one told him to do so, and I cut and pasted
your response, IN IT'S ENTIRETY!!!! and yet you still say "No, I didn't say
that..."
** No, I didn't say "no I didn't say that" and I don't appreciate you attributing that quote to me. I said exactly what my previous post said: that the majority of parents want what is best for their kids. Nowhere in there does it say "abusive parents". Never did.
Myranda, the HE in question is an abuser, the question was limited
to abusers. YOU are the one who changed it to be about all parents, yet in
the same breath claim you are just answering the part about (and I quote you
from above) "why would he want to stop part of the question" Myranda, there
was no other part to the question. Why are you insisting there was?
I'll do it one more time. Here goes...
Sandra said this ~~>>> If everyone looks the other way and the child is
afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
You said this in response ~~>>** Because he's a parent and the majority of
parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
Then in response to my post about your above statement you say this~~>>
Actually, what I said was that the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. That includes everyone, and is not limited to abusers. And was in
response to the "why would he want to stop" part of the question.
Myranda
Sandra wasn't talking about the "majority of parents" she was talking about
an abuser.
** But I wasn't. I had been discussing all parents.
You clearly state that you feel that because "he is a parent" the
he being an abuser, and since he is a parent and the majority of parents
(here you lump the abuser in with all parents)
** You're saying the abuser isn't a parent?
want what's best for their
child then clearly the abuser would as well.
** Yes, most parents want what is best for their kids. That was my original statement, it hasn't changed, and I still stand by it. It doesn't matter who you do or do not want to include as a "parent", MOST parents want what is best for their kids. Plain and simple.
And to top it all off, we just
have to have faith.
** Nope, you don't have to. No one has to. It would be wonderful though.
Oh gee. Well, that's just great. Thanks for your ever
enlightening on again off again ideas.
~Nancy
** You know, all this, and I don't see anything where I've changed what I'm saying. I do see where you mis-quoted something I said. But I've said the same thing three times now, or is it four?
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
abuser would want to stop if no one told him to do so, and I cut and pasted
your response, IN IT'S ENTIRETY!!!! and yet you still say "No, I didn't say
that..."
** No, I didn't say "no I didn't say that" and I don't appreciate you attributing that quote to me. I said exactly what my previous post said: that the majority of parents want what is best for their kids. Nowhere in there does it say "abusive parents". Never did.
Myranda, the HE in question is an abuser, the question was limited
to abusers. YOU are the one who changed it to be about all parents, yet in
the same breath claim you are just answering the part about (and I quote you
from above) "why would he want to stop part of the question" Myranda, there
was no other part to the question. Why are you insisting there was?
I'll do it one more time. Here goes...
Sandra said this ~~>>> If everyone looks the other way and the child is
afraid to report it, why
will he want to stop?
Sandra
You said this in response ~~>>** Because he's a parent and the majority of
parents want what is best for
their kids. Because most people do want to do what is nice and respectful.
Because you gotta have faith in people or they have no reason to have faith
in themselves.
Myranda
Then in response to my post about your above statement you say this~~>>
Actually, what I said was that the majority of parents want what is best for
their kids. That includes everyone, and is not limited to abusers. And was in
response to the "why would he want to stop" part of the question.
Myranda
Sandra wasn't talking about the "majority of parents" she was talking about
an abuser.
** But I wasn't. I had been discussing all parents.
You clearly state that you feel that because "he is a parent" the
he being an abuser, and since he is a parent and the majority of parents
(here you lump the abuser in with all parents)
** You're saying the abuser isn't a parent?
want what's best for their
child then clearly the abuser would as well.
** Yes, most parents want what is best for their kids. That was my original statement, it hasn't changed, and I still stand by it. It doesn't matter who you do or do not want to include as a "parent", MOST parents want what is best for their kids. Plain and simple.
And to top it all off, we just
have to have faith.
** Nope, you don't have to. No one has to. It would be wonderful though.
Oh gee. Well, that's just great. Thanks for your ever
enlightening on again off again ideas.
~Nancy
** You know, all this, and I don't see anything where I've changed what I'm saying. I do see where you mis-quoted something I said. But I've said the same thing three times now, or is it four?
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 2:40:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
myrandab@... writes:
thing with your kid and what's a day anyway?) I have always cut and pasted
what I receive in my mail box. I do this to avoid this very thing you say I
have done. I could spend hours going back through all your posts to show you
exactly what you have said. It wouldn't be worth it, but I think I just might
do that tonight. You will continue to say "No, not me, didn't say that." I
think you need to report to Yahoo that someone who has your email address,
and name is using your account to post conflicting things. Things you
yourself have never said. Yahoo will be able to help clear up the confusion
I'm sure.
Please, someone back me up here.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
myrandab@... writes:
> ** You know, all this, and I don't see anything where I've changed what I'mI didn't misquote a thing you said Myranda. (except for the Saturday/Sunday
> saying. I do see where you mis-quoted something I said. But I've said the
> same thing three times now, or is it four?
> Myranda
thing with your kid and what's a day anyway?) I have always cut and pasted
what I receive in my mail box. I do this to avoid this very thing you say I
have done. I could spend hours going back through all your posts to show you
exactly what you have said. It wouldn't be worth it, but I think I just might
do that tonight. You will continue to say "No, not me, didn't say that." I
think you need to report to Yahoo that someone who has your email address,
and name is using your account to post conflicting things. Things you
yourself have never said. Yahoo will be able to help clear up the confusion
I'm sure.
Please, someone back me up here.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
> THAT is why I get worried when people make the blanket statement "No oneOr the baby in the high chair who gets hit with a spoon for not signing thank
> knows your child as well as you do!" Because too many parents don't know
> enough about child development and what is normal to have an awareness of
> what children are and aren't capable of understanding or doing or learning at
> various ages. And so a five year old who can't stay dry all night and read
> when the parent TELLS him "Sound it out!" gets spanked. When he should be
> hugged and played with and praised, he gets told he's bad, disobedient, and
> then gets hit.
>
> Sandra
you?
Yesterday I saw a three year old girl at a thrift store with her mom and her
mom's boyfriend. She was right next to me when he came up behind her (a big
guy about 6' 4") in a cape with a monster mask and yelled "Boo" at her as loud
as he could. She had tears running down her face. She cried and cried and he
just walked back to the costume section where he put on another mask. I
finally patted her on the back and gave her a toy to look at. She had subsided
down to muffled sobs when he came *back* in a different costume and scared her
again. Her mom finally showed up and when I asked if scaring her to tears once
wasn't maybe enough she ignored me and proceeded to tell her little girl that
she was "so silly" and "not really crying" and "what a fuss about nothing
little crybaby" for the next ten minutes while the girl kept crying. Geeze
Louise. How hard is is to figure out that a 3 year old maybe can't handle
that? Maybe a six or a seven year old might like being scared but scared to
tears?
Peggy
Mary Bianco
myrandab@... writes:
<<You know, all this, and I don't see anything where I've changed what I'm
saying. I do see where you mis-quoted something I said. But I've said the
same thing three times now, or is it four?>>
Myranda,
But you have changed what has been said and that's why some of us are very
confused. We remember what you have said previoulsy and maybe you don't. You
said your child goes over to your parents house every Sunday and that he
usually has a banana because they are there on the counter. Now I remember
you saying that your child understands what he can't have and has no problem
with not having certain foods. So having a banana that is sitting there
didn't make sense. Then it wasn't usually him having one but having one
every 8 weeks. That's not usually when they are there once a week. The he
was being offered banana's and doing great considering his age and someone
tempting (my own word) him. Then he's not actually "at" their house but out
with them. No wonder we're all confused. You just don't want to seem to
acknowledge that your stories are changing.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls!�Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
<<You know, all this, and I don't see anything where I've changed what I'm
saying. I do see where you mis-quoted something I said. But I've said the
same thing three times now, or is it four?>>
Myranda,
But you have changed what has been said and that's why some of us are very
confused. We remember what you have said previoulsy and maybe you don't. You
said your child goes over to your parents house every Sunday and that he
usually has a banana because they are there on the counter. Now I remember
you saying that your child understands what he can't have and has no problem
with not having certain foods. So having a banana that is sitting there
didn't make sense. Then it wasn't usually him having one but having one
every 8 weeks. That's not usually when they are there once a week. The he
was being offered banana's and doing great considering his age and someone
tempting (my own word) him. Then he's not actually "at" their house but out
with them. No wonder we're all confused. You just don't want to seem to
acknowledge that your stories are changing.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls!�Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
Mary Bianco
>From: Peggy <peggy@...><<Yesterday I saw a three year old girl at a thrift store with her mom and
her mom's boyfriend. She was right next to me when he came up behind her (a
big guy about 6' 4") in a cape with a monster mask and yelled "Boo" at her
as loud as he could. She had tears running down her face. She cried and
cried and he just walked back to the costume section where he put on another
mask. I finally patted her on the back and gave her a toy to look at. She
had subsided down to muffled sobs when he came *back* in a different costume
and scared her again. Her mom finally showed up and when I asked if scaring
her to tears once
wasn't maybe enough she ignored me and proceeded to tell her little girl
that she was "so silly" and "not really crying" and "what a fuss about
nothing little crybaby" for the next ten minutes while the girl kept crying.
Geeze Louise. How hard is is to figure out that a 3 year old maybe can't
handle that? Maybe a six or a seven year old might like being scared but
scared to tears?>>
That poor little kid. Good for you in saying something. Last weekend when we
took the kids to the church carnival, we were waiting in line for a dragon
roller coaster ride for the kids. There was this little boy maybe about 3
that was sitting by himself and just terrified after the ride had started.
He was crying in such distress and stupid ass mom was just laughing away and
waving at him. I yelled out that the little kid was obviously not having a
good time and they needed to get him off. I really don't care if she asked
the operator to stop because she was embarrassed or not. She had them stop
the ride and then got him off. Other parents around were looking at me like
they couldn't believe I would say something, yet they all chimed in and
agreed with me. Maybe by saying something and letting others hear it, they
will get the guts themselves to say something if they see it.
Also the same night, there were two kids that trampled through a line of us
waiting for a ride. One of those trampled was my Sierra who started to cry.
She got jostled quite violently and also stepped on. The boys were chasing
each other and maybe about 9. I grabbed them and then my husband took care
of the situation and the one kid apologized. All the parents just stood
around and looked while their kids were at risk too. Too many problems are
because people DON'T say anything.
And on that ride, when our kids got on, the operator was making the kids put
up their arms when the ride dropped down. Sierra would on the way up, but
grabbed a hold of the bar on the way down. The operator, trying to be funny,
said she wasn't going to operate the ride anymore unless everyone put up
their hands. Sierra had an odd look on her face and I knew she didn't want
to do it but didn't want to speak up either. I stood right next to the lady
and looked right at Sierra and loudly said, "You don't have to put your
hands up just because she tells you to."" The lady left her alone the rest
of the night.
Mary B (think you know what the B stands for?? LOL!!!)
_________________________________________________________________
Broadband?�Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Kelli Traaseth
Nancy,
I'm right there with ya.
Kelli
Dnowens@... wrote:In a message dated 10/23/02 2:40:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
myrandab@... writes:
thing with your kid and what's a day anyway?) I have always cut and pasted
what I receive in my mail box. I do this to avoid this very thing you say I
have done. I could spend hours going back through all your posts to show you
exactly what you have said. It wouldn't be worth it, but I think I just might
do that tonight. You will continue to say "No, not me, didn't say that." I
think you need to report to Yahoo that someone who has your email address,
and name is using your account to post conflicting things. Things you
yourself have never said. Yahoo will be able to help clear up the confusion
I'm sure.
Please, someone back me up here.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm right there with ya.
Kelli
Dnowens@... wrote:In a message dated 10/23/02 2:40:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
myrandab@... writes:
> ** You know, all this, and I don't see anything where I've changed what I'mI didn't misquote a thing you said Myranda. (except for the Saturday/Sunday
> saying. I do see where you mis-quoted something I said. But I've said the
> same thing three times now, or is it four?
> Myranda
thing with your kid and what's a day anyway?) I have always cut and pasted
what I receive in my mail box. I do this to avoid this very thing you say I
have done. I could spend hours going back through all your posts to show you
exactly what you have said. It wouldn't be worth it, but I think I just might
do that tonight. You will continue to say "No, not me, didn't say that." I
think you need to report to Yahoo that someone who has your email address,
and name is using your account to post conflicting things. Things you
yourself have never said. Yahoo will be able to help clear up the confusion
I'm sure.
Please, someone back me up here.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 6:27:51 PM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< Mary B (think you know what the B stands for?? LOL!!!) >>
Brave!
<< Mary B (think you know what the B stands for?? LOL!!!) >>
Brave!