Part 2 of 2, calling the police vs. doing nothing
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 1:50:28 PM, myrandab@... writes:
<< ** OK, I'm confused. First you say women, now innocent young girls?
There is a big difference there. A young girl should still be under the
protection of her parents and other adults she is with, and they should have
known and taken care of the problem.
The abuser and buddies spread lies about those who were harmed--that's a
second layer of abuse.
The women all did report the abuse to men they thought would do something
about it. In the case of an exclusive-campsite-use situation, calling the
police is not usually the first thing done, but the authorities of the group
are notified. That was done.
<< If you thought you were the only one would you? If you knew you were one
of
six or a hundred would you be more likely?
** What does that matter? No, I wouldn't be any more likely or less likely
to report something whether others did or didn't have it happen to them.
Makes no difference.
And if one person hits SEVERAL children it's no worse? Or if that one child
is hit repeatedly and often, it's still nobody else's business?
<<I think I've said several time that abuse should be reported. >>
I KNOW you have said several times today that it's nobody else's business
what happens within a family.
<<I would not try to help anyone in that situation because my children are
always with me, and no matter how I feel about helping others I wouldn't put
my children's lives at risk for someone else, anyone else. >>
Your children will not always be with you, and I doubt that they are always
with you now.
<<If I was alone, I'd do something in a heartbeat - but again, that's abuse,
not family interactions. >>
How can you tell when you see "family interactions" that they're family?
If you would be responsible and compassionate in the absence of your children
but would turn your eyes away from abuse if they were there, what message
does that send them? What example does it set?
<<What about the courage to let others live as they see fit?>>
If others are hitting little children, it's not courage to allow it to
happen, it is the purest cowardice.
<<Perhaps ask "Do you need some help/want some advice" instead of forcing it
on them. >>
The mother didn't need help. Her whipping was going just peachy for her.
The little girl needed help. That's the person I helped.
<<I haven't contradicted myself at all. >>
Repeatedly.
<< No. Call someone to report abuse or "horrors" and leave the every-day
family interactions alone. >>
This is coming from someone who clung doggedly (while contradicting herself
in that discussion too) that calling a child "Lazybones" could do no harm.
<<That doesn't have anything to do with parents dealing with their children
on a daily basis. If you break the law, you answer to the law.>>
If you offend the neighbors, sometimes you answer to the neighbors. If my
child plays at another family's house, how they treat her and their own
children while she's there becomes my business. If they come and visit my
house and belittle their children or swat them in MY house, on MY property,
that becomes my business.
<<If they are a normal, healthy adult, they can speak up for themselves,
reach out for help if they want it and are willing to accept it.>>
Abused children do not grow up to be normal, healthy adults. That harm can
last for a lifetime. THAT is why we were asking you to reconsider the
labelling and the nicknames.
Now I'd like to ask you to reconsider whether spanking is abusive.
<<Encourage them to do so if they're open to encouragement. >>
If you're not open to encouragement, then why would you come to a discussion
group such as this?
<< ** I've been on both sides of this issue, too. Actually, you can be doing
more harm than good here too. IF the lady reached out or called out or
indicated she wanted help, then by all means, help her. But if not, the best
thing to do would be to call the cops. >>
The manager called the cops while Cathyn pulled the man off her and I sat
with her while she cried.
You would have called the cops and let them keep fighting until they got
there? Because that small, older woman was going to lose that fight.
<<If she's planning on staying with the guy, (even tho that's a lousy and
stupid choice) he could very well turn on her later at home and accuse her of
calling friends to interfere with their lives. Hard call, since you can't
know. >>
What he did after we were gone would have been his business. We even advised
them that if they wanted to avoid his arrest they needed to leave. They
insisted they were staying for food. The manager said they were not going to
serve them, they were too drunk, and they should leave. Insisting on staying
gave the police time to come and arrest him. In New Mexico it's mandatory
overnight in jail for domestic abuse or battery of any sort.
Sandra
<< ** OK, I'm confused. First you say women, now innocent young girls?
There is a big difference there. A young girl should still be under the
protection of her parents and other adults she is with, and they should have
known and taken care of the problem.
>>sorry, that other one was prematurely launched.
The abuser and buddies spread lies about those who were harmed--that's a
second layer of abuse.
The women all did report the abuse to men they thought would do something
about it. In the case of an exclusive-campsite-use situation, calling the
police is not usually the first thing done, but the authorities of the group
are notified. That was done.
<< If you thought you were the only one would you? If you knew you were one
of
six or a hundred would you be more likely?
** What does that matter? No, I wouldn't be any more likely or less likely
to report something whether others did or didn't have it happen to them.
Makes no difference.
>>So you think if one person hits one child once, it's nobody else's business.
And if one person hits SEVERAL children it's no worse? Or if that one child
is hit repeatedly and often, it's still nobody else's business?
<<I think I've said several time that abuse should be reported. >>
I KNOW you have said several times today that it's nobody else's business
what happens within a family.
<<I would not try to help anyone in that situation because my children are
always with me, and no matter how I feel about helping others I wouldn't put
my children's lives at risk for someone else, anyone else. >>
Your children will not always be with you, and I doubt that they are always
with you now.
<<If I was alone, I'd do something in a heartbeat - but again, that's abuse,
not family interactions. >>
How can you tell when you see "family interactions" that they're family?
If you would be responsible and compassionate in the absence of your children
but would turn your eyes away from abuse if they were there, what message
does that send them? What example does it set?
<<What about the courage to let others live as they see fit?>>
If others are hitting little children, it's not courage to allow it to
happen, it is the purest cowardice.
<<Perhaps ask "Do you need some help/want some advice" instead of forcing it
on them. >>
The mother didn't need help. Her whipping was going just peachy for her.
The little girl needed help. That's the person I helped.
<<I haven't contradicted myself at all. >>
Repeatedly.
<< No. Call someone to report abuse or "horrors" and leave the every-day
family interactions alone. >>
This is coming from someone who clung doggedly (while contradicting herself
in that discussion too) that calling a child "Lazybones" could do no harm.
<<That doesn't have anything to do with parents dealing with their children
on a daily basis. If you break the law, you answer to the law.>>
If you offend the neighbors, sometimes you answer to the neighbors. If my
child plays at another family's house, how they treat her and their own
children while she's there becomes my business. If they come and visit my
house and belittle their children or swat them in MY house, on MY property,
that becomes my business.
<<If they are a normal, healthy adult, they can speak up for themselves,
reach out for help if they want it and are willing to accept it.>>
Abused children do not grow up to be normal, healthy adults. That harm can
last for a lifetime. THAT is why we were asking you to reconsider the
labelling and the nicknames.
Now I'd like to ask you to reconsider whether spanking is abusive.
<<Encourage them to do so if they're open to encouragement. >>
If you're not open to encouragement, then why would you come to a discussion
group such as this?
<< ** I've been on both sides of this issue, too. Actually, you can be doing
more harm than good here too. IF the lady reached out or called out or
indicated she wanted help, then by all means, help her. But if not, the best
thing to do would be to call the cops. >>
The manager called the cops while Cathyn pulled the man off her and I sat
with her while she cried.
You would have called the cops and let them keep fighting until they got
there? Because that small, older woman was going to lose that fight.
<<If she's planning on staying with the guy, (even tho that's a lousy and
stupid choice) he could very well turn on her later at home and accuse her of
calling friends to interfere with their lives. Hard call, since you can't
know. >>
What he did after we were gone would have been his business. We even advised
them that if they wanted to avoid his arrest they needed to leave. They
insisted they were staying for food. The manager said they were not going to
serve them, they were too drunk, and they should leave. Insisting on staying
gave the police time to come and arrest him. In New Mexico it's mandatory
overnight in jail for domestic abuse or battery of any sort.
Sandra
Myranda
From: SandraDodd@...
In the case of an exclusive-campsite-use situation, calling the
police is not usually the first thing done, but the authorities of the group
are notified. That was done.
** I can't understand that, maybe I just don't understand this group, but it seems to me the police should be the first notified in a sexual abuse case.
So you think if one person hits one child once, it's nobody else's business.
And if one person hits SEVERAL children it's no worse? Or if that one child
is hit repeatedly and often, it's still nobody else's business?
** No, I think it is their family and friend's business, not strangers who have no idea if it has happened once, to more than one child, or whathaveyou. Unless it is clearly abuse (as defined by law) and then they should be called.
I KNOW you have said several times today that it's nobody else's business
what happens within a family.
** Unless it is abuse.
Your children will not always be with you, and I doubt that they are always
with you now.
** Why would you doubt it? I said it, I don't lie. The ONLY times I've been anywhere without them is when I go Christmas shopping - one day, once a year, and when I go out for my anniversary - one evening a year, and I think I've missed about half our years on that. Otherwise, at least one, and usually all three, children are with me. Yes, even at night and on bathroom trips and trips to the mailbox.
How can you tell when you see "family interactions" that they're family?
If you would be responsible and compassionate in the absence of your children
but would turn your eyes away from abuse if they were there, what message
does that send them? What example does it set?
** What right do I have to decide if a lady and child are family or not? If a child is with a parental figure, I would certainly assume they're family, or someone the family entrusted to be with the child, which makes them as close as family. I wouldn't do nothing.... they'd learn how and when to call 911 and they'd learn that I'd protect them from possible harm in getting involved in a dangerous situation. You'd rather I charge in on drunk men holding a baby with two small children tagging behind??? Just to show them a "good example"??? What's that example gonna mean if they're dead?
If others are hitting little children, it's not courage to allow it to
happen, it is the purest cowardice.
** You can't allow or not allow it to happen when they're not your children or even family or friends.
The mother didn't need help. Her whipping was going just peachy for her.
The little girl needed help. That's the person I helped.
** So you dont' think the mother needed to be helped learn a better way? I thought that's why you spoke to begin with.
Repeatedly.
** Nope, I stand by my original statements.
This is coming from someone who clung doggedly (while contradicting herself
in that discussion too) that calling a child "Lazybones" could do no harm.
** I did ask nicely for that to be dropped.
If you offend the neighbors, sometimes you answer to the neighbors. If my
child plays at another family's house, how they treat her and their own
children while she's there becomes my business. If they come and visit my
house and belittle their children or swat them in MY house, on MY property,
that becomes my business.
** True. But what's that got to do with how stranger's parent?
Now I'd like to ask you to reconsider whether spanking is abusive.
** By law, it's not. Personally, I'm still considering.
If you're not open to encouragement, then why would you come to a discussion
group such as this?
** I am very open to encouragement. If I need opinions on something, I ask. If I run across something that I'm interested in or that seems to have something to do with our lives, I listen and learn. I am wondering what that has to do with encouraging/offering parents help instead of forcing it.
The manager called the cops while Cathyn pulled the man off her and I sat
with her while she cried.
You would have called the cops and let them keep fighting until they got
there? Because that small, older woman was going to lose that fight.
** Good! Then she wanted help, or she would've refused to stay with you. Hope she got away from him for good.
Myranda
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In the case of an exclusive-campsite-use situation, calling the
police is not usually the first thing done, but the authorities of the group
are notified. That was done.
** I can't understand that, maybe I just don't understand this group, but it seems to me the police should be the first notified in a sexual abuse case.
So you think if one person hits one child once, it's nobody else's business.
And if one person hits SEVERAL children it's no worse? Or if that one child
is hit repeatedly and often, it's still nobody else's business?
** No, I think it is their family and friend's business, not strangers who have no idea if it has happened once, to more than one child, or whathaveyou. Unless it is clearly abuse (as defined by law) and then they should be called.
I KNOW you have said several times today that it's nobody else's business
what happens within a family.
** Unless it is abuse.
Your children will not always be with you, and I doubt that they are always
with you now.
** Why would you doubt it? I said it, I don't lie. The ONLY times I've been anywhere without them is when I go Christmas shopping - one day, once a year, and when I go out for my anniversary - one evening a year, and I think I've missed about half our years on that. Otherwise, at least one, and usually all three, children are with me. Yes, even at night and on bathroom trips and trips to the mailbox.
How can you tell when you see "family interactions" that they're family?
If you would be responsible and compassionate in the absence of your children
but would turn your eyes away from abuse if they were there, what message
does that send them? What example does it set?
** What right do I have to decide if a lady and child are family or not? If a child is with a parental figure, I would certainly assume they're family, or someone the family entrusted to be with the child, which makes them as close as family. I wouldn't do nothing.... they'd learn how and when to call 911 and they'd learn that I'd protect them from possible harm in getting involved in a dangerous situation. You'd rather I charge in on drunk men holding a baby with two small children tagging behind??? Just to show them a "good example"??? What's that example gonna mean if they're dead?
If others are hitting little children, it's not courage to allow it to
happen, it is the purest cowardice.
** You can't allow or not allow it to happen when they're not your children or even family or friends.
The mother didn't need help. Her whipping was going just peachy for her.
The little girl needed help. That's the person I helped.
** So you dont' think the mother needed to be helped learn a better way? I thought that's why you spoke to begin with.
Repeatedly.
** Nope, I stand by my original statements.
This is coming from someone who clung doggedly (while contradicting herself
in that discussion too) that calling a child "Lazybones" could do no harm.
** I did ask nicely for that to be dropped.
If you offend the neighbors, sometimes you answer to the neighbors. If my
child plays at another family's house, how they treat her and their own
children while she's there becomes my business. If they come and visit my
house and belittle their children or swat them in MY house, on MY property,
that becomes my business.
** True. But what's that got to do with how stranger's parent?
Now I'd like to ask you to reconsider whether spanking is abusive.
** By law, it's not. Personally, I'm still considering.
If you're not open to encouragement, then why would you come to a discussion
group such as this?
** I am very open to encouragement. If I need opinions on something, I ask. If I run across something that I'm interested in or that seems to have something to do with our lives, I listen and learn. I am wondering what that has to do with encouraging/offering parents help instead of forcing it.
The manager called the cops while Cathyn pulled the man off her and I sat
with her while she cried.
You would have called the cops and let them keep fighting until they got
there? Because that small, older woman was going to lose that fight.
** Good! Then she wanted help, or she would've refused to stay with you. Hope she got away from him for good.
Myranda
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 7:56:49 PM, myrandab@... writes:
<< Why would you doubt it? I said it, I don't lie. >>
Your posts contradict themselves. Your stories change.
<< Why would you doubt it? I said it, I don't lie. >>
Your posts contradict themselves. Your stories change.
Myranda
From: SandraDodd@...
Your posts contradict themselves. Your stories change.
** How so? I've stuck to my "story" the entire time, it's your questions that keep changing the subject. Just because I have a different view on adult abuse than I do on child abuse doesn't mean I'm not telling the truth.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your posts contradict themselves. Your stories change.
** How so? I've stuck to my "story" the entire time, it's your questions that keep changing the subject. Just because I have a different view on adult abuse than I do on child abuse doesn't mean I'm not telling the truth.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]