calling the police vs. doing nothing
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 7:42:55 AM, myrandab@... writes:
<< On one hand, another person cannot possibly know the circumstances
surrounding it, and unless it is abuse where you would need to call the
authorities, I think it's best to mind your own business. >>
By this sort of rule, a man who's in the SCA and who was (not anymore) a
knight was excused by the board of directors for doing some really bad
things. This was the justification: IF we thought he was molesting women,
we should have called the police. If we didn't call the police, it must not
have been bad enough so we should drop it.
Well...
There were at least four, maybe six women he touched inappropriately in a two
day binge. Nobody knew until a week later that there had been that many.
There were people that weekend, though, who knew there had been two (a few
knew of three) and they DID ask for action to be taken on the weekend. But
they didn't call the police.
So, Myranda, by your model, people can NEVER ask a person to act better, they
can NEVER give advice, all they can do is call the authorities???
That is not a good model to live by.
It's an other example of either I'm totally right and in the clear, and it's
none of your business, or I'm SO horrible you need to call the authorities.
Even in a black and white world there are shades between black and white.
I think telling someone "What you're doing is not okay." is much more
responsible and useful and brave than slinking off and calling child
protective services.
I did say something to a woman one day for spanking a little girl outside the
library.
She said "Mind your own business."
Should I have called the county?
I hope she thought twice from then on about spanking her child.
Sandra
<< On one hand, another person cannot possibly know the circumstances
surrounding it, and unless it is abuse where you would need to call the
authorities, I think it's best to mind your own business. >>
By this sort of rule, a man who's in the SCA and who was (not anymore) a
knight was excused by the board of directors for doing some really bad
things. This was the justification: IF we thought he was molesting women,
we should have called the police. If we didn't call the police, it must not
have been bad enough so we should drop it.
Well...
There were at least four, maybe six women he touched inappropriately in a two
day binge. Nobody knew until a week later that there had been that many.
There were people that weekend, though, who knew there had been two (a few
knew of three) and they DID ask for action to be taken on the weekend. But
they didn't call the police.
So, Myranda, by your model, people can NEVER ask a person to act better, they
can NEVER give advice, all they can do is call the authorities???
That is not a good model to live by.
It's an other example of either I'm totally right and in the clear, and it's
none of your business, or I'm SO horrible you need to call the authorities.
Even in a black and white world there are shades between black and white.
I think telling someone "What you're doing is not okay." is much more
responsible and useful and brave than slinking off and calling child
protective services.
I did say something to a woman one day for spanking a little girl outside the
library.
She said "Mind your own business."
Should I have called the county?
I hope she thought twice from then on about spanking her child.
Sandra
Myranda
From: SandraDodd@...
By this sort of rule, a man who's in the SCA and who was (not anymore) a
knight was excused by the board of directors for doing some really bad
things. This was the justification: IF we thought he was molesting women,
we should have called the police. If we didn't call the police, it must not
have been bad enough so we should drop it.
Well...
There were at least four, maybe six women he touched inappropriately in a two
day binge. Nobody knew until a week later that there had been that many.
There were people that weekend, though, who knew there had been two (a few
knew of three) and they DID ask for action to be taken on the weekend. But
they didn't call the police.
** If none of the women chose to call the police, then there's nothing that can be done, I wouldn't think. If the one the crime is commited against isn't worried enough to do something about it, why should others be? They're adults, they don't need caretakers.
So, Myranda, by your model, people can NEVER ask a person to act better, they
can NEVER give advice, all they can do is call the authorities???
** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not asked? And I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, that the authorities should be called if abuse was being done.
That is not a good model to live by.
** I think it's an excellent model. People have been killed for less than interfering in some stranger's life.
It's an other example of either I'm totally right and in the clear, and it's
none of your business, or I'm SO horrible you need to call the authorities.
** Someone doesn't have to be right to earn the respect to live their lives as they see fit. No one is right all the time. Just as children don't like to hear how they're doing something wrong, and usually won't listen if you tell them, adults don't want to hear it either.
Even in a black and white world there are shades between black and white.
** I think it's all shades of gray. No black or white, at least none that fit every person, everywhere.
I think telling someone "What you're doing is not okay." is much more
responsible and useful and brave than slinking off and calling child
protective services.
** I don't think it's useful at all. I think it's more counter-productive than anything.
I did say something to a woman one day for spanking a little girl outside the
library.
She said "Mind your own business."
Should I have called the county?
** No, she was not abusing her child. Spanking, however sad, is not illegal and is not considered abuse. I think you should have done what she said. I don't know what you said to her, but if it was anything including the meaning that she shouldn't spank, the child EASILY could pick up on that and repeat it to mom, and earn more spankings, probably in anger at that point. It happens in my extended pro-spanking family all the time. Well-meaning people who feel they have to butt in just cause more grief and harm to the child.
I hope she thought twice from then on about spanking her child.
** Much more likely that it strengthened her resolve that she needed to do it.
Sandra
** I don't have to deal with the spanking issue, but people come up to me all the time and tell me my kids should be in school. I'm sure they mean every bit as well as you did, but it really makes things difficult for us here. They list all the "fun" things kids get to do, like see friends all day, play games, go to special events, etc, and my boys look at me as the bad guy for not sending them to school. There's been days where they've been in tears because some person told them they should go, and they want to. Also, someone once had the rudeness to say something to me when I told my oldest that I was putting the things he wanted back on the shelf because he chose to throw a tantrum when he couldn't have one of the 5 things he wanted. He, of course, acted 10x worse than he already was when he heard someone say that he should have what he was pitching a fit for.
No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule of thumb in those situations, IMO.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
By this sort of rule, a man who's in the SCA and who was (not anymore) a
knight was excused by the board of directors for doing some really bad
things. This was the justification: IF we thought he was molesting women,
we should have called the police. If we didn't call the police, it must not
have been bad enough so we should drop it.
Well...
There were at least four, maybe six women he touched inappropriately in a two
day binge. Nobody knew until a week later that there had been that many.
There were people that weekend, though, who knew there had been two (a few
knew of three) and they DID ask for action to be taken on the weekend. But
they didn't call the police.
** If none of the women chose to call the police, then there's nothing that can be done, I wouldn't think. If the one the crime is commited against isn't worried enough to do something about it, why should others be? They're adults, they don't need caretakers.
So, Myranda, by your model, people can NEVER ask a person to act better, they
can NEVER give advice, all they can do is call the authorities???
** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not asked? And I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, that the authorities should be called if abuse was being done.
That is not a good model to live by.
** I think it's an excellent model. People have been killed for less than interfering in some stranger's life.
It's an other example of either I'm totally right and in the clear, and it's
none of your business, or I'm SO horrible you need to call the authorities.
** Someone doesn't have to be right to earn the respect to live their lives as they see fit. No one is right all the time. Just as children don't like to hear how they're doing something wrong, and usually won't listen if you tell them, adults don't want to hear it either.
Even in a black and white world there are shades between black and white.
** I think it's all shades of gray. No black or white, at least none that fit every person, everywhere.
I think telling someone "What you're doing is not okay." is much more
responsible and useful and brave than slinking off and calling child
protective services.
** I don't think it's useful at all. I think it's more counter-productive than anything.
I did say something to a woman one day for spanking a little girl outside the
library.
She said "Mind your own business."
Should I have called the county?
** No, she was not abusing her child. Spanking, however sad, is not illegal and is not considered abuse. I think you should have done what she said. I don't know what you said to her, but if it was anything including the meaning that she shouldn't spank, the child EASILY could pick up on that and repeat it to mom, and earn more spankings, probably in anger at that point. It happens in my extended pro-spanking family all the time. Well-meaning people who feel they have to butt in just cause more grief and harm to the child.
I hope she thought twice from then on about spanking her child.
** Much more likely that it strengthened her resolve that she needed to do it.
Sandra
** I don't have to deal with the spanking issue, but people come up to me all the time and tell me my kids should be in school. I'm sure they mean every bit as well as you did, but it really makes things difficult for us here. They list all the "fun" things kids get to do, like see friends all day, play games, go to special events, etc, and my boys look at me as the bad guy for not sending them to school. There's been days where they've been in tears because some person told them they should go, and they want to. Also, someone once had the rudeness to say something to me when I told my oldest that I was putting the things he wanted back on the shelf because he chose to throw a tantrum when he couldn't have one of the 5 things he wanted. He, of course, acted 10x worse than he already was when he heard someone say that he should have what he was pitching a fit for.
No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule of thumb in those situations, IMO.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
I'm sorry, but if we always wanted to say 'something nice' , people that are hurting their children would never be stopped. Yes, I see what you are saying Myranda, but I know from experience, not saying things only leads to more abuse. In my opinion, if that woman had some other way of dealing with her frustrations maybe she would have done something different to her child, like maybe talking. But she chose to spank, in public, I wonder what she does at her home?
Fine, maybe its more our business when its within our family, but what if that woman stopped and thought about it. Then it was worth it. In every instance where I've seen spanking, (and I know I'll get slammed for this)the adult has very low self-esteem or low self-worth and doesn't know that there are other ways to guide and rear our children. I spanked my oldest when he was 2 or 3 and I could tell, it was not improving the situation at all so I stopped. But, some people can not get their emotions in check to see that its not helping. I could go on and on.
The sad thing is that even when it is in our families, alot of people will still, not say anything....denial is HUGE and it seems to be everywhere.
Hope all can take this in the right way,
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: SandraDodd@...
By this sort of rule, a man who's in the SCA and who was (not anymore) a
knight was excused by the board of directors for doing some really bad
things. This was the justification: IF we thought he was molesting women,
we should have called the police. If we didn't call the police, it must not
have been bad enough so we should drop it.
Well...
There were at least four, maybe six women he touched inappropriately in a two
day binge. Nobody knew until a week later that there had been that many.
There were people that weekend, though, who knew there had been two (a few
knew of three) and they DID ask for action to be taken on the weekend. But
they didn't call the police.
** If none of the women chose to call the police, then there's nothing that can be done, I wouldn't think. If the one the crime is commited against isn't worried enough to do something about it, why should others be? They're adults, they don't need caretakers.
So, Myranda, by your model, people can NEVER ask a person to act better, they
can NEVER give advice, all they can do is call the authorities???
** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not asked? And I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, that the authorities should be called if abuse was being done.
That is not a good model to live by.
** I think it's an excellent model. People have been killed for less than interfering in some stranger's life.
It's an other example of either I'm totally right and in the clear, and it's
none of your business, or I'm SO horrible you need to call the authorities.
** Someone doesn't have to be right to earn the respect to live their lives as they see fit. No one is right all the time. Just as children don't like to hear how they're doing something wrong, and usually won't listen if you tell them, adults don't want to hear it either.
Even in a black and white world there are shades between black and white.
** I think it's all shades of gray. No black or white, at least none that fit every person, everywhere.
I think telling someone "What you're doing is not okay." is much more
responsible and useful and brave than slinking off and calling child
protective services.
** I don't think it's useful at all. I think it's more counter-productive than anything.
I did say something to a woman one day for spanking a little girl outside the
library.
She said "Mind your own business."
Should I have called the county?
** No, she was not abusing her child. Spanking, however sad, is not illegal and is not considered abuse. I think you should have done what she said. I don't know what you said to her, but if it was anything including the meaning that she shouldn't spank, the child EASILY could pick up on that and repeat it to mom, and earn more spankings, probably in anger at that point. It happens in my extended pro-spanking family all the time. Well-meaning people who feel they have to butt in just cause more grief and harm to the child.
I hope she thought twice from then on about spanking her child.
** Much more likely that it strengthened her resolve that she needed to do it.
Sandra
** I don't have to deal with the spanking issue, but people come up to me all the time and tell me my kids should be in school. I'm sure they mean every bit as well as you did, but it really makes things difficult for us here. They list all the "fun" things kids get to do, like see friends all day, play games, go to special events, etc, and my boys look at me as the bad guy for not sending them to school. There's been days where they've been in tears because some person told them they should go, and they want to. Also, someone once had the rudeness to say something to me when I told my oldest that I was putting the things he wanted back on the shelf because he chose to throw a tantrum when he couldn't have one of the 5 things he wanted. He, of course, acted 10x worse than he already was when he heard someone say that he should have what he was pitching a fit for.
No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule of thumb in those situations, IMO.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fine, maybe its more our business when its within our family, but what if that woman stopped and thought about it. Then it was worth it. In every instance where I've seen spanking, (and I know I'll get slammed for this)the adult has very low self-esteem or low self-worth and doesn't know that there are other ways to guide and rear our children. I spanked my oldest when he was 2 or 3 and I could tell, it was not improving the situation at all so I stopped. But, some people can not get their emotions in check to see that its not helping. I could go on and on.
The sad thing is that even when it is in our families, alot of people will still, not say anything....denial is HUGE and it seems to be everywhere.
Hope all can take this in the right way,
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: SandraDodd@...
By this sort of rule, a man who's in the SCA and who was (not anymore) a
knight was excused by the board of directors for doing some really bad
things. This was the justification: IF we thought he was molesting women,
we should have called the police. If we didn't call the police, it must not
have been bad enough so we should drop it.
Well...
There were at least four, maybe six women he touched inappropriately in a two
day binge. Nobody knew until a week later that there had been that many.
There were people that weekend, though, who knew there had been two (a few
knew of three) and they DID ask for action to be taken on the weekend. But
they didn't call the police.
** If none of the women chose to call the police, then there's nothing that can be done, I wouldn't think. If the one the crime is commited against isn't worried enough to do something about it, why should others be? They're adults, they don't need caretakers.
So, Myranda, by your model, people can NEVER ask a person to act better, they
can NEVER give advice, all they can do is call the authorities???
** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not asked? And I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, that the authorities should be called if abuse was being done.
That is not a good model to live by.
** I think it's an excellent model. People have been killed for less than interfering in some stranger's life.
It's an other example of either I'm totally right and in the clear, and it's
none of your business, or I'm SO horrible you need to call the authorities.
** Someone doesn't have to be right to earn the respect to live their lives as they see fit. No one is right all the time. Just as children don't like to hear how they're doing something wrong, and usually won't listen if you tell them, adults don't want to hear it either.
Even in a black and white world there are shades between black and white.
** I think it's all shades of gray. No black or white, at least none that fit every person, everywhere.
I think telling someone "What you're doing is not okay." is much more
responsible and useful and brave than slinking off and calling child
protective services.
** I don't think it's useful at all. I think it's more counter-productive than anything.
I did say something to a woman one day for spanking a little girl outside the
library.
She said "Mind your own business."
Should I have called the county?
** No, she was not abusing her child. Spanking, however sad, is not illegal and is not considered abuse. I think you should have done what she said. I don't know what you said to her, but if it was anything including the meaning that she shouldn't spank, the child EASILY could pick up on that and repeat it to mom, and earn more spankings, probably in anger at that point. It happens in my extended pro-spanking family all the time. Well-meaning people who feel they have to butt in just cause more grief and harm to the child.
I hope she thought twice from then on about spanking her child.
** Much more likely that it strengthened her resolve that she needed to do it.
Sandra
** I don't have to deal with the spanking issue, but people come up to me all the time and tell me my kids should be in school. I'm sure they mean every bit as well as you did, but it really makes things difficult for us here. They list all the "fun" things kids get to do, like see friends all day, play games, go to special events, etc, and my boys look at me as the bad guy for not sending them to school. There's been days where they've been in tears because some person told them they should go, and they want to. Also, someone once had the rudeness to say something to me when I told my oldest that I was putting the things he wanted back on the shelf because he chose to throw a tantrum when he couldn't have one of the 5 things he wanted. He, of course, acted 10x worse than he already was when he heard someone say that he should have what he was pitching a fit for.
No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule of thumb in those situations, IMO.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kimber
<<<<The sad thing is that even when it is in our families, alot of people will still, not say anything....denial is HUGE and it seems to be everywhere.
Hope all can take this in the right way,
Kelli>>>>>
I have a situation that arose in our family. My brother-in-law (28) recently married (she's 22) someone who has a 3y/o daughter. It seems that she hasn't had much parenting experience....she spends little time with her daughter because her mother(the grandmother) has custody and the girl's father gets her every other weekend. Well, she is now pregnant with my nephew and the really bad news is that he has known birth defects which will have to be corrected at birth (omphalocele). The stress she is under is more than I will ever know. But.....she spanks her 3 y/o constantly. They have been to our home about 5 or 6 times and each and every time, 3 y/o gets spanked or swatted for touching things (toys), not cleaning her plate, or saying 'no'. Now, my house is not a shrine. I am a neat freak, I admit, but there is absolutely nothing within her reach that is off limits. I learned a long time ago that it is so much easier to put my 'pretties' (breakables) up high so I won't worry about them. My sil knows this as I tell her every visit. She still continues to try to keep her 3 y/o in line. Another example is the last time they were here, my niece colored a picture and wanted it on the fridge with all of the others my kids had done. She starts looking for an available magnet, starts shifting papers on the fridge, ........instantly her mother screams, "Quit messing with that!!" All she wanted was a spot with the others. I was so sad for her. I then told her, "lets see if we can find you a good place", and she beamed.
Anyway, I have talked to my bil about how we feel about spanking, how we tried it and it didn't work. He has seen how our parenting styles have changed over time but I doubt he has paid much attention.....he's only been a father for 4 months. I have tried my best to point out other ways of parenting to him, mainly by example, without being a smarty pants or a know-it-all. I have stated that, "this works for us...you might try it." kind of advice. He hasn't seemed offended by suggestions/advice because I think now he realizes how difficult parenting can be and is a little overwhelmed by his new life. He was a bacholor, never married, no girl friend for about 1 1/2 years before his wife, a party kind of guy who is now ready to 'be a grown up'. For his birthday about 6 weeks ago, I gave him a copy of _The Natural Child_ which I had just read and thought was wonderful. I put a little note in the front about how I wish I had received this book when my son was a baby. The last time we were together, he still hadn't read it and I don't know about his wife.
I guess, I am looking for input on what to do next. Have I already gone too far? They both ask for advice, seem receptive to our replies, but nothing seems to change. Again, they are under a lot of stress right now with the new baby coming (due Dec.) but my (new)niece shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
The grandmother, whom I have met, seems very controlling, manipulative, harsh, she yells a lot, spanks, oh...and she is a teacher (4 year olds). It's no wonder my sil has bad habits.
Kimber
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hope all can take this in the right way,
Kelli>>>>>
I have a situation that arose in our family. My brother-in-law (28) recently married (she's 22) someone who has a 3y/o daughter. It seems that she hasn't had much parenting experience....she spends little time with her daughter because her mother(the grandmother) has custody and the girl's father gets her every other weekend. Well, she is now pregnant with my nephew and the really bad news is that he has known birth defects which will have to be corrected at birth (omphalocele). The stress she is under is more than I will ever know. But.....she spanks her 3 y/o constantly. They have been to our home about 5 or 6 times and each and every time, 3 y/o gets spanked or swatted for touching things (toys), not cleaning her plate, or saying 'no'. Now, my house is not a shrine. I am a neat freak, I admit, but there is absolutely nothing within her reach that is off limits. I learned a long time ago that it is so much easier to put my 'pretties' (breakables) up high so I won't worry about them. My sil knows this as I tell her every visit. She still continues to try to keep her 3 y/o in line. Another example is the last time they were here, my niece colored a picture and wanted it on the fridge with all of the others my kids had done. She starts looking for an available magnet, starts shifting papers on the fridge, ........instantly her mother screams, "Quit messing with that!!" All she wanted was a spot with the others. I was so sad for her. I then told her, "lets see if we can find you a good place", and she beamed.
Anyway, I have talked to my bil about how we feel about spanking, how we tried it and it didn't work. He has seen how our parenting styles have changed over time but I doubt he has paid much attention.....he's only been a father for 4 months. I have tried my best to point out other ways of parenting to him, mainly by example, without being a smarty pants or a know-it-all. I have stated that, "this works for us...you might try it." kind of advice. He hasn't seemed offended by suggestions/advice because I think now he realizes how difficult parenting can be and is a little overwhelmed by his new life. He was a bacholor, never married, no girl friend for about 1 1/2 years before his wife, a party kind of guy who is now ready to 'be a grown up'. For his birthday about 6 weeks ago, I gave him a copy of _The Natural Child_ which I had just read and thought was wonderful. I put a little note in the front about how I wish I had received this book when my son was a baby. The last time we were together, he still hadn't read it and I don't know about his wife.
I guess, I am looking for input on what to do next. Have I already gone too far? They both ask for advice, seem receptive to our replies, but nothing seems to change. Again, they are under a lot of stress right now with the new baby coming (due Dec.) but my (new)niece shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
The grandmother, whom I have met, seems very controlling, manipulative, harsh, she yells a lot, spanks, oh...and she is a teacher (4 year olds). It's no wonder my sil has bad habits.
Kimber
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Kelli Traaseth
I'm sorry, but if we always wanted to say 'something nice' , people that are hurting their children would never be stopped.
** Like I said, if abuse is happening, call the cops. You don't have to say anything to the parent.
Yes, I see what you are saying Myranda, but I know from experience, not saying things only leads to more abuse. In my opinion, if that woman had some other way of dealing with her frustrations maybe she would have done something different to her child, like maybe talking. But she chose to spank, in public, I wonder what she does at her home?
** From my experience with my family and friends (who almost all spank) they do nothing in their home they wouldn't do in public. They have thought about it, and they only spank AFTER talking and reasoning don't work. To assume that a parent who spanks in public beats their kids with horsewhips at home, and never talks or reasons with or gives choices to the kids, is unfair and more often than not totally untrue. Give people the benefit of the doubt when you don't know them from Adam's housecat. That slim "maybe" that you could do some good by speaking up is by far outweighed by the bad that is definitely done.
Fine, maybe its more our business when its within our family, but what if that woman stopped and thought about it. Then it was worth it. In every instance where I've seen spanking, (and I know I'll get slammed for this)the adult has very low self-esteem or low self-worth and doesn't know that there are other ways to guide and rear our children. I spanked my oldest when he was 2 or 3 and I could tell, it was not improving the situation at all so I stopped. But, some people can not get their emotions in check to see that its not helping. I could go on and on.
The sad thing is that even when it is in our families, alot of people will still, not say anything....denial is HUGE and it seems to be everywhere.
** Maybe they don't say anything because there really is not a need for anything to be said? A parent who spanks when the child does something that could hurt them or others is very much accepted and even expected in many families. If the parents have thought it through and decided to deal with things in that manner, it's their choice and it's not abuse.
Myranda
Hope all can take this in the right way,
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm sorry, but if we always wanted to say 'something nice' , people that are hurting their children would never be stopped.
** Like I said, if abuse is happening, call the cops. You don't have to say anything to the parent.
Yes, I see what you are saying Myranda, but I know from experience, not saying things only leads to more abuse. In my opinion, if that woman had some other way of dealing with her frustrations maybe she would have done something different to her child, like maybe talking. But she chose to spank, in public, I wonder what she does at her home?
** From my experience with my family and friends (who almost all spank) they do nothing in their home they wouldn't do in public. They have thought about it, and they only spank AFTER talking and reasoning don't work. To assume that a parent who spanks in public beats their kids with horsewhips at home, and never talks or reasons with or gives choices to the kids, is unfair and more often than not totally untrue. Give people the benefit of the doubt when you don't know them from Adam's housecat. That slim "maybe" that you could do some good by speaking up is by far outweighed by the bad that is definitely done.
Fine, maybe its more our business when its within our family, but what if that woman stopped and thought about it. Then it was worth it. In every instance where I've seen spanking, (and I know I'll get slammed for this)the adult has very low self-esteem or low self-worth and doesn't know that there are other ways to guide and rear our children. I spanked my oldest when he was 2 or 3 and I could tell, it was not improving the situation at all so I stopped. But, some people can not get their emotions in check to see that its not helping. I could go on and on.
The sad thing is that even when it is in our families, alot of people will still, not say anything....denial is HUGE and it seems to be everywhere.
** Maybe they don't say anything because there really is not a need for anything to be said? A parent who spanks when the child does something that could hurt them or others is very much accepted and even expected in many families. If the parents have thought it through and decided to deal with things in that manner, it's their choice and it's not abuse.
Myranda
Hope all can take this in the right way,
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
Myranda wrote:
better to interfere," or "It's always best not to interfere," rule that works
for all cases but in this case what Sandra did was let the child know that not
all adults felt the way her mother did about violence. That is good.
up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
your consciousness. I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
"nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over and
over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
Peggy
> ** No, she was not abusing her child. Spanking, however sad, is not illegal and is not considered abuse. II disagree, at least in this scenario, hard to have a blanket "It's always
> think you should have done what she said. I don't know what you said to her, but if it was anything including the
> meaning that she shouldn't spank, the child EASILY could pick up on that and repeat it to mom, and earn
> more spankings, probably in anger at that point. It happens in my extended pro-spanking family all the time.
> Well-meaning people who feel they have to butt in just cause more grief and harm to the child.
better to interfere," or "It's always best not to interfere," rule that works
for all cases but in this case what Sandra did was let the child know that not
all adults felt the way her mother did about violence. That is good.
>Maybe. Maybe not. Little messages from those around us have a way of creeping
> I hope she thought twice from then on about spanking her child.
>
> ** Much more likely that it strengthened her resolve that she needed to do it.
up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
> ** I don't have to deal with the spanking issue, but people come up to me all the time and tell me my kidsMaybe the fact that this bothers you is a message that is creeping up through
> should be in school. I'm sure they mean every bit as well as you did, but it really makes things difficult for us
> here. They list all the "fun" things kids get to do, like see friends all day, play games, go to special events, etc,
> and my boys look at me as the bad guy for not sending them to school. There's been days where they've been
> in tears because some person told them they should go, and they want to. Also, someone once had the
> rudeness to say something to me when I told my oldest that I was putting the things he wanted back on the
> shelf because he chose to throw a tantrum when he couldn't have one of the 5 things he wanted. He, of
> course, acted 10x worse than he already was when he heard someone say that he should have what he was
> pitching a fit for.
your consciousness. I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
> No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in interactions within families. You neverThe trouble or blessing with *today's* world is that those little rules of
> know the harm you can be causeing. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule
> of thumb in those situations, IMO.
> Myranda
etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
"nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over and
over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
Peggy
Myranda
From: Peggy
I disagree, at least in this scenario, hard to have a blanket "It's always
better to interfere," or "It's always best not to interfere," rule that works
for all cases but in this case what Sandra did was let the child know that not
all adults felt the way her mother did about violence. That is good.
** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and more spankings.
Maybe. Maybe not. Little messages from those around us have a way of creeping
up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly hurting the child more than is already being done.
Maybe the fact that this bothers you is a message that is creeping up through
your consciousness.
** How so? The only thing that bothered me about it was that my kids were heartbroken and my son decided that since a stranger thought he should have something, he could convice me with screaming and hitting, when normally he would have calmed down and asked nicely within a couple minutes.
I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
The trouble or blessing with *today's* world is that those little rules of
etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
"nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time.
I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over and
over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
Peggy
** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm, and not abuse.
My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others, and causes a great deal more harm than good. Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting already, you won't do a bit of good. It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I disagree, at least in this scenario, hard to have a blanket "It's always
better to interfere," or "It's always best not to interfere," rule that works
for all cases but in this case what Sandra did was let the child know that not
all adults felt the way her mother did about violence. That is good.
** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and more spankings.
Maybe. Maybe not. Little messages from those around us have a way of creeping
up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly hurting the child more than is already being done.
Maybe the fact that this bothers you is a message that is creeping up through
your consciousness.
** How so? The only thing that bothered me about it was that my kids were heartbroken and my son decided that since a stranger thought he should have something, he could convice me with screaming and hitting, when normally he would have calmed down and asked nicely within a couple minutes.
I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
The trouble or blessing with *today's* world is that those little rules of
etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
"nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time.
I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over and
over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
Peggy
** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm, and not abuse.
My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others, and causes a great deal more harm than good. Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting already, you won't do a bit of good. It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Since you see them often, and they do ask for advice, why don't you offer (over the phone, maybe, when the child is not around) to let them know of other, better, ways to deal with things as they come up when you are together. Maybe them seeing things in practice would make much more of an impact than just your talking to them does. My DH is quick to raise his voice, and he's gotten to where he'll look to me when he starts getting upset for ideas on what else he can do. For example, when the mom yelled about the fridge, you could say "Usually it's nice to ask people before you start moving their things around, but I'm family so it's ok when you're here, let's find a place for your pretty picture and tell mommy to come look". That would address any concerns that mom might have about her messing with your things (since she's new to the family she's probably not all the way comfortable with you yet), and show and include mom in the nice thing to do and way to act, and give her a chance to ooh and ah over the pic and get her girl's happiness with her back.
Myranda
From: Kimber
I have a situation that arose in our family. My brother-in-law (28) recently married (she's 22) someone who has a 3y/o daughter. It seems that she hasn't had much parenting experience....she spends little time with her daughter because her mother(the grandmother) has custody and the girl's father gets her every other weekend. Well, she is now pregnant with my nephew and the really bad news is that he has known birth defects which will have to be corrected at birth (omphalocele). The stress she is under is more than I will ever know. But.....she spanks her 3 y/o constantly. They have been to our home about 5 or 6 times and each and every time, 3 y/o gets spanked or swatted for touching things (toys), not cleaning her plate, or saying 'no'. Now, my house is not a shrine. I am a neat freak, I admit, but there is absolutely nothing within her reach that is off limits. I learned a long time ago that it is so much easier to put my 'pretties' (breakables) up high so I won't worry about them. My sil knows this as I tell her every visit. She still continues to try to keep her 3 y/o in line. Another example is the last time they were here, my niece colored a picture and wanted it on the fridge with all of the others my kids had done. She starts looking for an available magnet, starts shifting papers on the fridge, ........instantly her mother screams, "Quit messing with that!!" All she wanted was a spot with the others. I was so sad for her. I then told her, "lets see if we can find you a good place", and she beamed.
Anyway, I have talked to my bil about how we feel about spanking, how we tried it and it didn't work. He has seen how our parenting styles have changed over time but I doubt he has paid much attention.....he's only been a father for 4 months. I have tried my best to point out other ways of parenting to him, mainly by example, without being a smarty pants or a know-it-all. I have stated that, "this works for us...you might try it." kind of advice. He hasn't seemed offended by suggestions/advice because I think now he realizes how difficult parenting can be and is a little overwhelmed by his new life. He was a bacholor, never married, no girl friend for about 1 1/2 years before his wife, a party kind of guy who is now ready to 'be a grown up'. For his birthday about 6 weeks ago, I gave him a copy of _The Natural Child_ which I had just read and thought was wonderful. I put a little note in the front about how I wish I had received this book when my son was a baby. The last time we were together, he still hadn't read it and I don't know about his wife.
I guess, I am looking for input on what to do next. Have I already gone too far? They both ask for advice, seem receptive to our replies, but nothing seems to change. Again, they are under a lot of stress right now with the new baby coming (due Dec.) but my (new)niece shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
The grandmother, whom I have met, seems very controlling, manipulative, harsh, she yells a lot, spanks, oh...and she is a teacher (4 year olds). It's no wonder my sil has bad habits.
Kimber
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Myranda
From: Kimber
I have a situation that arose in our family. My brother-in-law (28) recently married (she's 22) someone who has a 3y/o daughter. It seems that she hasn't had much parenting experience....she spends little time with her daughter because her mother(the grandmother) has custody and the girl's father gets her every other weekend. Well, she is now pregnant with my nephew and the really bad news is that he has known birth defects which will have to be corrected at birth (omphalocele). The stress she is under is more than I will ever know. But.....she spanks her 3 y/o constantly. They have been to our home about 5 or 6 times and each and every time, 3 y/o gets spanked or swatted for touching things (toys), not cleaning her plate, or saying 'no'. Now, my house is not a shrine. I am a neat freak, I admit, but there is absolutely nothing within her reach that is off limits. I learned a long time ago that it is so much easier to put my 'pretties' (breakables) up high so I won't worry about them. My sil knows this as I tell her every visit. She still continues to try to keep her 3 y/o in line. Another example is the last time they were here, my niece colored a picture and wanted it on the fridge with all of the others my kids had done. She starts looking for an available magnet, starts shifting papers on the fridge, ........instantly her mother screams, "Quit messing with that!!" All she wanted was a spot with the others. I was so sad for her. I then told her, "lets see if we can find you a good place", and she beamed.
Anyway, I have talked to my bil about how we feel about spanking, how we tried it and it didn't work. He has seen how our parenting styles have changed over time but I doubt he has paid much attention.....he's only been a father for 4 months. I have tried my best to point out other ways of parenting to him, mainly by example, without being a smarty pants or a know-it-all. I have stated that, "this works for us...you might try it." kind of advice. He hasn't seemed offended by suggestions/advice because I think now he realizes how difficult parenting can be and is a little overwhelmed by his new life. He was a bacholor, never married, no girl friend for about 1 1/2 years before his wife, a party kind of guy who is now ready to 'be a grown up'. For his birthday about 6 weeks ago, I gave him a copy of _The Natural Child_ which I had just read and thought was wonderful. I put a little note in the front about how I wish I had received this book when my son was a baby. The last time we were together, he still hadn't read it and I don't know about his wife.
I guess, I am looking for input on what to do next. Have I already gone too far? They both ask for advice, seem receptive to our replies, but nothing seems to change. Again, they are under a lot of stress right now with the new baby coming (due Dec.) but my (new)niece shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
The grandmother, whom I have met, seems very controlling, manipulative, harsh, she yells a lot, spanks, oh...and she is a teacher (4 year olds). It's no wonder my sil has bad habits.
Kimber
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In a message dated 10/22/02 10:30:42 AM, myrandab@... writes:
<< ** If none of the women chose to call the police, then there's nothing
that can be done, I wouldn't think. If the one the crime is commited against
isn't worried enough to do something about it, why should others be? They're
adults, they don't need caretakers. >>
None knew they were one of several. Each thought she should be courteous and
keep the peace.
You're wrong about it not being my business. I have been in this group for
25 and a half years, investing a HUGE amount of time, energy, money and
spirit. And a drunken asshole should NOT be able to run roughshod over
innocent young girls, undoing the trust and safety other have worked for
years to provide. And he resigned his knighthood under pressure.
If you got a sack of flaming dogshit on your porch would you call the police?
If you thought you were the only one would you? If you knew you were one of
six or a hundred would you be more likely?
<< If the one the crime is commited against isn't worried enough to do
something about it, why should others be? >>
This is sick and wrong.
If a child is too afraid to call the authorities against his parents, then
you are saying others shouldn't worry about it? If a teenaged girl is
grabbed by four drunks in an alley you wouldn't try to help her?
<< ** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and
situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not
asked?>>
Compassion
Courage
Conviction
Legal obligation, in many cases.
<<And I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, that the authorities should be called
if abuse was being done.>>
Now you've contradicted yourself within the same post.
No one of those women knew the extent of the damage. They were much angrier
when they got home and found out how many similar incidents there had been.
They were afraid of him. They were afraid others would think badly of THEM
if they reported him because he had rank.
<<<< ** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and
situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not
asked?>>>>
I'm stunned that you say that. Stunned you could think of it.
If Holly my daughter who is ten were being abused here and the neighbors
suspected it, or saw it, and thought "Well, if she didn't ask for advice, I
have no right to interfere," they would be accomplices.
<< ** I think it's an excellent model. People have been killed for less than
interfering in some stranger's life. >>
What are you saying?
We all wear blinders and let horrors go unnoted and unaddressed?
<< ** Someone doesn't have to be right to earn the respect to live their
lives as they see fit. No one is right all the time. Just as children don't
like to hear how they're doing something wrong, and usually won't listen if
you tell them, adults don't want to hear it either. >>
"No one is right all the time" is the same argument this horrible former
knight used. He said "You can't accuse me of anything because you're not pe
rfect."
I thought that was his personal idiocy and now I read it HERE!??
My children DO want to hear what they are wrong and they DO listen if I tell
them.
Are you saying you don't tell your children when they're wrong?
Are you saying your children don't listen?
ARE YOU SAYING you would never act or speak in defense of someone being
wronged by someone bigger or worse?
Do you think it was wrong of people to bring the priest abuses to light? My
friend Jerome was molested by a priest for over a year, when he was 7 and 8
years old. If he didn't feel like reporting it, but that priest went on to
do it to others, you're saying that's fine?? That if Jerome didn't consider
it to be bad that it was nobody else's business?>
<<I think you should have done what she said. I don't know what you said to
her, but if it was anything including the meaning that she shouldn't spank,
the child EASILY could pick up on that and repeat it to mom, and earn more
spankings, probably in anger at that point. It happens in my extended
pro-spanking family all the time. Well-meaning people who feel they have to
butt in just cause more grief and harm to the child.
That's why people are afraid to report rape and abuse, because they're afraid
other adults will look away.
By this reasoning, if the girl is spanked harder later it's my fault. That's
stupid.
So if a man is hitting a woman in a restaurant (Village Inn on Central in
Albuquerque) that other diners should not move to take him off her? (Me and
Cathyn, two years ago, kept her from being kicked any more, after she had
been hit, dragged out of a booth, and kicked.)
You would have just ignored it and let it go?
<<** Much more likely that it strengthened her resolve that she needed to do
it. >>
Are you calling your child lazybones more now because people here asked you
not to?
<< No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in
interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing.
"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule
of thumb in those situations, IMO. >>
Doctors and teachers have obligations to report abuse when they see it. So
do some other professions.
If your husband is beating you and you are afraid to report it, by your own
rules you wouldn't want anyone else to report it either because they might be
killed or you might be hit harder later?
Please clarify, because what you have written here is frightening.
Sandra
<< ** If none of the women chose to call the police, then there's nothing
that can be done, I wouldn't think. If the one the crime is commited against
isn't worried enough to do something about it, why should others be? They're
adults, they don't need caretakers. >>
None knew they were one of several. Each thought she should be courteous and
keep the peace.
You're wrong about it not being my business. I have been in this group for
25 and a half years, investing a HUGE amount of time, energy, money and
spirit. And a drunken asshole should NOT be able to run roughshod over
innocent young girls, undoing the trust and safety other have worked for
years to provide. And he resigned his knighthood under pressure.
If you got a sack of flaming dogshit on your porch would you call the police?
If you thought you were the only one would you? If you knew you were one of
six or a hundred would you be more likely?
<< If the one the crime is commited against isn't worried enough to do
something about it, why should others be? >>
This is sick and wrong.
If a child is too afraid to call the authorities against his parents, then
you are saying others shouldn't worry about it? If a teenaged girl is
grabbed by four drunks in an alley you wouldn't try to help her?
<< ** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and
situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not
asked?>>
Compassion
Courage
Conviction
Legal obligation, in many cases.
<<And I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, that the authorities should be called
if abuse was being done.>>
Now you've contradicted yourself within the same post.
No one of those women knew the extent of the damage. They were much angrier
when they got home and found out how many similar incidents there had been.
They were afraid of him. They were afraid others would think badly of THEM
if they reported him because he had rank.
<<<< ** Why on earth would someone totally unrelated to the person and
situation think they have the right to interfere if their advice is not
asked?>>>>
I'm stunned that you say that. Stunned you could think of it.
If Holly my daughter who is ten were being abused here and the neighbors
suspected it, or saw it, and thought "Well, if she didn't ask for advice, I
have no right to interfere," they would be accomplices.
<< ** I think it's an excellent model. People have been killed for less than
interfering in some stranger's life. >>
What are you saying?
We all wear blinders and let horrors go unnoted and unaddressed?
<< ** Someone doesn't have to be right to earn the respect to live their
lives as they see fit. No one is right all the time. Just as children don't
like to hear how they're doing something wrong, and usually won't listen if
you tell them, adults don't want to hear it either. >>
"No one is right all the time" is the same argument this horrible former
knight used. He said "You can't accuse me of anything because you're not pe
rfect."
I thought that was his personal idiocy and now I read it HERE!??
My children DO want to hear what they are wrong and they DO listen if I tell
them.
Are you saying you don't tell your children when they're wrong?
Are you saying your children don't listen?
ARE YOU SAYING you would never act or speak in defense of someone being
wronged by someone bigger or worse?
Do you think it was wrong of people to bring the priest abuses to light? My
friend Jerome was molested by a priest for over a year, when he was 7 and 8
years old. If he didn't feel like reporting it, but that priest went on to
do it to others, you're saying that's fine?? That if Jerome didn't consider
it to be bad that it was nobody else's business?>
<<I think you should have done what she said. I don't know what you said to
her, but if it was anything including the meaning that she shouldn't spank,
the child EASILY could pick up on that and repeat it to mom, and earn more
spankings, probably in anger at that point. It happens in my extended
pro-spanking family all the time. Well-meaning people who feel they have to
butt in just cause more grief and harm to the child.
>>Sick and wrong again.
That's why people are afraid to report rape and abuse, because they're afraid
other adults will look away.
By this reasoning, if the girl is spanked harder later it's my fault. That's
stupid.
So if a man is hitting a woman in a restaurant (Village Inn on Central in
Albuquerque) that other diners should not move to take him off her? (Me and
Cathyn, two years ago, kept her from being kicked any more, after she had
been hit, dragged out of a booth, and kicked.)
You would have just ignored it and let it go?
<<** Much more likely that it strengthened her resolve that she needed to do
it. >>
Are you calling your child lazybones more now because people here asked you
not to?
<< No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in
interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing.
"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule
of thumb in those situations, IMO. >>
Doctors and teachers have obligations to report abuse when they see it. So
do some other professions.
If your husband is beating you and you are afraid to report it, by your own
rules you wouldn't want anyone else to report it either because they might be
killed or you might be hit harder later?
Please clarify, because what you have written here is frightening.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
> I'm sorry, but if we always wanted to say 'something nice' , people thatare hurting their children would never be stopped. Yes, I see what you are
saying Myranda, but I know from experience, not saying things only leads to
more abuse. In my opinion, if that woman had some other way of dealing with
her frustrations maybe she would have done something different to her child,
like maybe talking. But she chose to spank, in public, I wonder what she
does at her home?
Actually, some parents are worse in public, because they're so concerned
with "what will people think?" They honestly believe that they are doing
the right thing. I have an acquaintance like that. I don't know if she
spanks because I haven't seen it or heard her talk about it. But she has
really high expectations of her kids, beyond their ability, and she enforces
that when I'm around. I try to make almost sideways comments to her,
comments that might get her thinking later rather than ones that will make
her defensive now.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 12:32:06 PM, myrandab@... writes:
<< ** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided
that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would
very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and
more spankings. >>
Maybe mommy needs to grow up.
<< ** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly
hurting the child more than is already being done. >>
Myranda you're talking like someone who is involved in or has been around
frightening abuse. There are lots of online discussions and e-mail loops for
survivors of abuse. I doubt that they're recommending more secrecy to
protect the abused.
<< ** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an
ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get
that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
<< ** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents
I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter
where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time. >>
The woman I spoke to outside the library was out of control, and she was
insulting and threatening the girl who was with her. My children had never
seen such a thing in their lives. It became my business in part because my
kids were close-up witnesses.
<< ** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He
does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good
friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from
being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He
also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm,
and not abuse. >>
Lack of death doesn't equate with not abused.
Maybe the reason "lazybones" didnt' seem abusive to you is that it is so far
from the abuse you've seen and heard of.
Might as well go all the way if you're going to decide not to have an abusive
relationship. Better than death isn't quite far enough. Denying that
hitting is hitting isn't nearly far enough.
<< My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in
obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. >>
No. Walloping in cold blood is worse than walloping in anger.
<<It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others,
and causes a great deal more harm than good. >>
Then YOU go ahead ignoring other people's abuse, but don't come here and tell
us to ignore it too. When the abuse stops it will be because people like me
said something or showed better examples, it won't be because of people like
you defending abusers and ignoring abuse.
-=- Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are
ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting
already, you won't do a bit of good. -=-
When yoiu first came on this board weren't you talking about having problems
with social services? If parents are not ready to find alternatives, the
children might be still ready to be saved from parents who are not being good
parents.
Some families don't know there is any alternative to hunt for.
Many people dedicate their lives to making those alternatives easily
available.
<<It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll
upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get
him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for
help. >>
Taking his kids away or his wife leaving might do it.
Yes, alcohol protects itself. Drugs protect themselves.
Child abuse is neither alcohol nor a drug.
Sandra
<< ** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided
that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would
very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and
more spankings. >>
Maybe mommy needs to grow up.
<< ** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly
hurting the child more than is already being done. >>
Myranda you're talking like someone who is involved in or has been around
frightening abuse. There are lots of online discussions and e-mail loops for
survivors of abuse. I doubt that they're recommending more secrecy to
protect the abused.
<< ** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an
ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get
that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
>>But if you try, YOU will be more advanced in this lifetime.
<< ** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents
I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter
where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time. >>
The woman I spoke to outside the library was out of control, and she was
insulting and threatening the girl who was with her. My children had never
seen such a thing in their lives. It became my business in part because my
kids were close-up witnesses.
<< ** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He
does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good
friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from
being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He
also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm,
and not abuse. >>
Lack of death doesn't equate with not abused.
Maybe the reason "lazybones" didnt' seem abusive to you is that it is so far
from the abuse you've seen and heard of.
Might as well go all the way if you're going to decide not to have an abusive
relationship. Better than death isn't quite far enough. Denying that
hitting is hitting isn't nearly far enough.
<< My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in
obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. >>
No. Walloping in cold blood is worse than walloping in anger.
<<It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others,
and causes a great deal more harm than good. >>
Then YOU go ahead ignoring other people's abuse, but don't come here and tell
us to ignore it too. When the abuse stops it will be because people like me
said something or showed better examples, it won't be because of people like
you defending abusers and ignoring abuse.
-=- Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are
ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting
already, you won't do a bit of good. -=-
When yoiu first came on this board weren't you talking about having problems
with social services? If parents are not ready to find alternatives, the
children might be still ready to be saved from parents who are not being good
parents.
Some families don't know there is any alternative to hunt for.
Many people dedicate their lives to making those alternatives easily
available.
<<It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll
upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get
him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for
help. >>
Taking his kids away or his wife leaving might do it.
Yes, alcohol protects itself. Drugs protect themselves.
Child abuse is neither alcohol nor a drug.
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
Myranda,
I think we know that a spank from a parent for running out into the street, or playing with fire or something to those extremes are what people say they would spank for, but don't you think then maybe the person interfering saw the circumstances?
When I've seen it, it is when the parent is aggravated and can't control their child in public. Like a store or something, or a library is where I've noticed. And their safety is not in jepardy.
We can all talk in generalities, but the truth to me rings loud and clear.
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: Peggy
I disagree, at least in this scenario, hard to have a blanket "It's always
better to interfere," or "It's always best not to interfere," rule that works
for all cases but in this case what Sandra did was let the child know that not
all adults felt the way her mother did about violence. That is good.
** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and more spankings.
Maybe. Maybe not. Little messages from those around us have a way of creeping
up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly hurting the child more than is already being done.
Maybe the fact that this bothers you is a message that is creeping up through
your consciousness.
** How so? The only thing that bothered me about it was that my kids were heartbroken and my son decided that since a stranger thought he should have something, he could convice me with screaming and hitting, when normally he would have calmed down and asked nicely within a couple minutes.
I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
The trouble or blessing with *today's* world is that those little rules of
etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
"nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time.
I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over and
over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
Peggy
** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm, and not abuse.
My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others, and causes a great deal more harm than good. Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting already, you won't do a bit of good. It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.
Myranda
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think we know that a spank from a parent for running out into the street, or playing with fire or something to those extremes are what people say they would spank for, but don't you think then maybe the person interfering saw the circumstances?
When I've seen it, it is when the parent is aggravated and can't control their child in public. Like a store or something, or a library is where I've noticed. And their safety is not in jepardy.
We can all talk in generalities, but the truth to me rings loud and clear.
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: Peggy
I disagree, at least in this scenario, hard to have a blanket "It's always
better to interfere," or "It's always best not to interfere," rule that works
for all cases but in this case what Sandra did was let the child know that not
all adults felt the way her mother did about violence. That is good.
** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and more spankings.
Maybe. Maybe not. Little messages from those around us have a way of creeping
up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly hurting the child more than is already being done.
Maybe the fact that this bothers you is a message that is creeping up through
your consciousness.
** How so? The only thing that bothered me about it was that my kids were heartbroken and my son decided that since a stranger thought he should have something, he could convice me with screaming and hitting, when normally he would have calmed down and asked nicely within a couple minutes.
I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
The trouble or blessing with *today's* world is that those little rules of
etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
"nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time.
I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over and
over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
Peggy
** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm, and not abuse.
My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others, and causes a great deal more harm than good. Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting already, you won't do a bit of good. It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.
Myranda
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 12:36:26 PM, snibbor@... writes:
<< Now, my house is not a shrine. >>
My house is a shrine to sensibility.
I would say to her that you don't want your children to be around spanking,
and she can't spank in your house.
Sandra
<< Now, my house is not a shrine. >>
My house is a shrine to sensibility.
I would say to her that you don't want your children to be around spanking,
and she can't spank in your house.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 12:50:18 PM, myrandab@... writes:
<< A parent who spanks when the child does something that could hurt them or
others is very much accepted and even expected in many families. >>
I think the little girl had been uncooperative in the library. Maybe she
talked. I was in the library when they were and I saw NOTHING that could
hurt her or others.
When I DID see something that could hurt others, I did something. What I saw
was a woman spanking a little girl, and yelling at her. It was the only
dangerous thing in an hour's time.
Sandra
<< A parent who spanks when the child does something that could hurt them or
others is very much accepted and even expected in many families. >>
I think the little girl had been uncooperative in the library. Maybe she
talked. I was in the library when they were and I saw NOTHING that could
hurt her or others.
When I DID see something that could hurt others, I did something. What I saw
was a woman spanking a little girl, and yelling at her. It was the only
dangerous thing in an hour's time.
Sandra
Peggy
Myranda wrote:
not violence. I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
up and lets a different scenario into play. It makes us feel
uncomfortable because we are no longer sure we are right. We might
spend quite a bit of time and energy thinking mean things about
another person to justify ourselves but it wasn't really the OTHER
person who makes us feel uncomfortable. It is the niggling suspicion
that entered not only our children's heads but our own that we might
possibly handled the situation a bit differently and possibly
better. When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
spanking in anger and losing it since that is what I have mostly
observed. They have already reached the end of their "dealing with
it" techniques. Maybe this is a southern thing. The old days of
whipping slaves have left a terrible legacy in the South. Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter. Maybe it
doesn't touch yours. It still is violence and it still is wrong. And
until one understands how hitting a child corrupts every other
interaction a parent has with that child I don't suppose one would
understand. It is a lack of respect on so many deep levels.
children who are abused less severely are not harmed. Hitting
children is violence and it shuts down respect and feeling between
the parent and the child. It closes down communication and trust. It
is Not Good even if it isn't maiming or death causing.
them. Hurting children hurts society. They used to box children's
ears -- why don't we do that now? It was "just parenting" and you
say people ought to have the right to do that? They discovered it
was physically and emotionally harmful and suddenly everyone quit
feeling they had the right to grab the nearest kid and hit him on
the ears as hard as they could for some infraction.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
> ** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and more spankings.Your points of this compass seem to be child wrong and spanking is
not violence. I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
>Myranda, here you are sympathizing with the adult, not the child.
> Maybe. Maybe not. Little messages from those around us have a way of creeping
> up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
> work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
> that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
>
> ** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly hurting the child more than is already being done.
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
>As parents it bothers us when our iron fisted hand on control slips
> Maybe the fact that this bothers you is a message that is creeping up through
> your consciousness.
>
> ** How so? The only thing that bothered me about it was that my kids were heartbroken and my son decided that since a stranger thought he should have something, he could convice me with screaming and hitting, when normally he would have calmed down and asked nicely within a couple minutes.
up and lets a different scenario into play. It makes us feel
uncomfortable because we are no longer sure we are right. We might
spend quite a bit of time and energy thinking mean things about
another person to justify ourselves but it wasn't really the OTHER
person who makes us feel uncomfortable. It is the niggling suspicion
that entered not only our children's heads but our own that we might
possibly handled the situation a bit differently and possibly
better. When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
>That's the whole point. ;)
> I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
> don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
> this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
> we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
> we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
> and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
> West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
> that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
> either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
>
> ** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
>My point on the compass seems to be an adult who spanks in public is
> The trouble or blessing with *today's* world is that those little rules of
> etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
> "nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
> defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
> kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
> adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
>
> ** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time.
spanking in anger and losing it since that is what I have mostly
observed. They have already reached the end of their "dealing with
it" techniques. Maybe this is a southern thing. The old days of
whipping slaves have left a terrible legacy in the South. Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter. Maybe it
doesn't touch yours. It still is violence and it still is wrong. And
until one understands how hitting a child corrupts every other
interaction a parent has with that child I don't suppose one would
understand. It is a lack of respect on so many deep levels.
> I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over andJust because some children are abused severely it doesn't mean that
> over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
> have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
> the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
> happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
>
> Peggy
>
> ** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm, and not abuse.
children who are abused less severely are not harmed. Hitting
children is violence and it shuts down respect and feeling between
the parent and the child. It closes down communication and trust. It
is Not Good even if it isn't maiming or death causing.
>The co-dependents view of life? Hitting children hurts and maims
> My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others, and causes a great deal more harm than good. Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting already, you won't do a bit of good. It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.
them. Hurting children hurts society. They used to box children's
ears -- why don't we do that now? It was "just parenting" and you
say people ought to have the right to do that? They discovered it
was physically and emotionally harmful and suddenly everyone quit
feeling they had the right to grab the nearest kid and hit him on
the ears as hard as they could for some infraction.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
>
Kelli Traaseth
Peggy and Sandra,
I think I would like to know what co-dependency is? Would you know a definition for it? I will research it too but I thought since you are right here, maybe you'd be up for answering this?
Thanks,
Kelli
Peggy <peggy@...> wrote:
Myranda wrote:
not violence. I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
up and lets a different scenario into play. It makes us feel
uncomfortable because we are no longer sure we are right. We might
spend quite a bit of time and energy thinking mean things about
another person to justify ourselves but it wasn't really the OTHER
person who makes us feel uncomfortable. It is the niggling suspicion
that entered not only our children's heads but our own that we might
possibly handled the situation a bit differently and possibly
better. When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
spanking in anger and losing it since that is what I have mostly
observed. They have already reached the end of their "dealing with
it" techniques. Maybe this is a southern thing. The old days of
whipping slaves have left a terrible legacy in the South. Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter. Maybe it
doesn't touch yours. It still is violence and it still is wrong. And
until one understands how hitting a child corrupts every other
interaction a parent has with that child I don't suppose one would
understand. It is a lack of respect on so many deep levels.
children who are abused less severely are not harmed. Hitting
children is violence and it shuts down respect and feeling between
the parent and the child. It closes down communication and trust. It
is Not Good even if it isn't maiming or death causing.
them. Hurting children hurts society. They used to box children's
ears -- why don't we do that now? It was "just parenting" and you
say people ought to have the right to do that? They discovered it
was physically and emotionally harmful and suddenly everyone quit
feeling they had the right to grab the nearest kid and hit him on
the ears as hard as they could for some infraction.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think I would like to know what co-dependency is? Would you know a definition for it? I will research it too but I thought since you are right here, maybe you'd be up for answering this?
Thanks,
Kelli
Peggy <peggy@...> wrote:
Myranda wrote:
> ** That depends on how the child interpreted it. If the child decided that "mommy is wrong and I am right", which is entirely possible, that would very likely just lead to the child getting into more trouble with mom and more spankings.Your points of this compass seem to be child wrong and spanking is
not violence. I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
>Myranda, here you are sympathizing with the adult, not the child.
> Maybe. Maybe not. Little messages from those around us have a way of creeping
> up into our consciousness whether we like it or not. Maybe that woman had to
> work extra hard at justifying it to herself the next time. That is a change
> that can ultimately lead to more awareness.
>
> ** I don't think the end justifies the means when it means quite possibly hurting the child more than is already being done.
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
>As parents it bothers us when our iron fisted hand on control slips
> Maybe the fact that this bothers you is a message that is creeping up through
> your consciousness.
>
> ** How so? The only thing that bothered me about it was that my kids were heartbroken and my son decided that since a stranger thought he should have something, he could convice me with screaming and hitting, when normally he would have calmed down and asked nicely within a couple minutes.
up and lets a different scenario into play. It makes us feel
uncomfortable because we are no longer sure we are right. We might
spend quite a bit of time and energy thinking mean things about
another person to justify ourselves but it wasn't really the OTHER
person who makes us feel uncomfortable. It is the niggling suspicion
that entered not only our children's heads but our own that we might
possibly handled the situation a bit differently and possibly
better. When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
>That's the whole point. ;)
> I used to think a lot of things twenty years ago that I
> don't think now. I've grown and changed. I think it is harder sometimes to do
> this while we are in the midst of being there with our young children because
> we feel like we are the dike that keeps bad things from happening to them and
> we need to be right so nothing goes wrong. Maybe we need a compass for Right
> and Not Right at North and South, with Sure and Not Sure at points East and
> West. ;) We think have so much to lose when we Aren't Right (usually because
> that is how our own parents acted towards us) that we get caught up in the
> either/or black/white thinking about it instead of really finding solutions.
>
> ** Such a compass would be wonderful, but it would have to be an ever-changing-to-fit-the-situation compass, and I don't think they'll get that far advanced in my lifetime! <g>
>My point on the compass seems to be an adult who spanks in public is
> The trouble or blessing with *today's* world is that those little rules of
> etiquette that used to fit ALL occasions simply don't anymore. Sometimes the
> "nicest" thing to do and the bravest and the most right is to stand up for
> defenseless children and to quit protecting the feelings of the adult. Not to
> kid oneself that not getting involved is going to protect a child with an
> adult so out of control that they can't control their anger in public.
>
> ** Why would you assume the adult is out of control or angry? The parents I know spank when certain things are done or not done by the child, no matter where they are, and they're not angry at all at the time.
spanking in anger and losing it since that is what I have mostly
observed. They have already reached the end of their "dealing with
it" techniques. Maybe this is a southern thing. The old days of
whipping slaves have left a terrible legacy in the South. Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter. Maybe it
doesn't touch yours. It still is violence and it still is wrong. And
until one understands how hitting a child corrupts every other
interaction a parent has with that child I don't suppose one would
understand. It is a lack of respect on so many deep levels.
> I've talked to so many grown children who were abused when young and over andJust because some children are abused severely it doesn't mean that
> over again they talk about the times when someone made a difference. It might
> have been a teacher or an aunt or even a neighbor, but even if it only made
> the abuser secretive and cautious it still let the child know that what was
> happening to them was wrong and that not all adults acted that way.
>
> Peggy
>
> ** My DH was abused as a child, and watched his mother being abused. He does not equate spanking with abuse in any way, shape, or form. A very good friend of mine was abused as a child, and watched his little sister die from being slammed head-first into a wall because she wouldn't stop crying. He also sees spanking as a discipline tool to be used selectively, when calm, and not abuse.
children who are abused less severely are not harmed. Hitting
children is violence and it shuts down respect and feeling between
the parent and the child. It closes down communication and trust. It
is Not Good even if it isn't maiming or death causing.
>The co-dependents view of life? Hitting children hurts and maims
> My point is, you CAN'T know, unless a child is really being wallopped in obvious anger, what the family's standards of discipline are. It's not right to try to impose your own advice and judgements onto others, and causes a great deal more harm than good. Leave the parenting to the parents, whenever possible. When people are ready to find alternatives, they'll hunt for them. If they're not hunting already, you won't do a bit of good. It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.
them. Hurting children hurts society. They used to box children's
ears -- why don't we do that now? It was "just parenting" and you
say people ought to have the right to do that? They discovered it
was physically and emotionally harmful and suddenly everyone quit
feeling they had the right to grab the nearest kid and hit him on
the ears as hard as they could for some infraction.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: SandraDodd@...
None knew they were one of several. Each thought she should be courteous and
keep the peace.
** If they felt wronged or violated, they should have done something about it. It shouldn't matter how many it happened to.
You're wrong about it not being my business. I have been in this group for
25 and a half years, investing a HUGE amount of time, energy, money and
spirit. And a drunken asshole should NOT be able to run roughshod over
innocent young girls, undoing the trust and safety other have worked for
years to provide. And he resigned his knighthood under pressure.
** OK, I'm confused. First you say women, now innocent young girls? There is a big difference there. A young girl should still be under the protection of her parents and other adults she is with, and they should have known and taken care of the problem.
If you got a sack of flaming dogshit on your porch would you call the police?
** No. Not unless I knew who did it and found it meant something more than just a child playing a prank.
If you thought you were the only one would you? If you knew you were one of
six or a hundred would you be more likely?
** What does that matter? No, I wouldn't be any more likely or less likely to report something whether others did or didn't have it happen to them. Makes no difference.
If a child is too afraid to call the authorities against his parents, then
you are saying others shouldn't worry about it? If a teenaged girl is
grabbed by four drunks in an alley you wouldn't try to help her?
** I think I've said several time that abuse should be reported. I would not try to help anyone in that situation because my children are always with me, and no matter how I feel about helping others I wouldn't put my children's lives at risk for someone else, anyone else. If I was alone, I'd do something in a heartbeat - but again, that's abuse, not family interactions.
Compassion
Courage
Conviction
Legal obligation, in many cases.
** What about the courage to let others live as they see fit? There is no one right way, their way could be just as right to them as your way is to you. Again, unless abuse is happening, give them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps ask "Do you need some help/want some advice" instead of forcing it on them.
Now you've contradicted yourself within the same post.
No one of those women knew the extent of the damage. They were much angrier
when they got home and found out how many similar incidents there had been.
** I haven't contradicted myself at all. I'm confused. It's wrong, and abuse, to do that to any person, decisions shouldn't be made on how to react, whether to report, based on how many people it happened to. They each had the responsibility to report what happened to them, no matter what may have happened to another person.
They were afraid of him. They were afraid others would think badly of THEM
if they reported him because he had rank.
** I understand fear. But they still had a choice.
I'm stunned that you say that. Stunned you could think of it.
** Why? It's about respecting others choices.
If Holly my daughter who is ten were being abused here and the neighbors
suspected it, or saw it, and thought "Well, if she didn't ask for advice, I
have no right to interfere," they would be accomplices.
** Of course. That's abuse. Something should be done about it. Most times when people step in and give their two cents worth to parents, it's not for abuse, it's for parenting issues.
What are you saying?
We all wear blinders and let horrors go unnoted and unaddressed?
** No. Call someone to report abuse or "horrors" and leave the every-day family interactions alone.
"No one is right all the time" is the same argument this horrible former
knight used. He said "You can't accuse me of anything because you're not pe
rfect."
I thought that was his personal idiocy and now I read it HERE!??
** That doesn't have anything to do with parents dealing with their children on a daily basis. If you break the law, you answer to the law. The people who uphold the law don't have to be perfect. What I'm saying is that parents don't all share the same child-rearing philosophies and it's not realistic to expect to change people's entire way of doing things by making them feel attacked and turning their children against them, which is what happens a lot when someone steps in and gives unsolicited advice.
My children DO want to hear what they are wrong and they DO listen if I tell
them.
Are you saying you don't tell your children when they're wrong?
Are you saying your children don't listen?
** No, I don't. I ask them questions about how they'd feel, what might be a better way, how it makes me feel, etc. and let them come to their own conclusions. They do this remarkably well, and if they come to a different conclusion than I would have made, that doesn't make them wrong. If I can trust my children to make the right choices for themselves, surely I can trust adults to do the same.
ARE YOU SAYING you would never act or speak in defense of someone being
wronged by someone bigger or worse?
** That's a broad statement. If they are a normal, healthy adult, they can speak up for themselves, reach out for help if they want it and are willing to accept it. Encourage them to do so if they're open to encouragement. If they are a child..... well, as I've said, I'd report abuse. A child picking on another, I'd re-direct them, maybe send them to their parents. A parent discliplining her child.... their business, as long as it's not abuse.
Do you think it was wrong of people to bring the priest abuses to light?
** I think everyone should be made aware of sexual abusers no matter what they make a living doing.
My
friend Jerome was molested by a priest for over a year, when he was 7 and 8
years old. If he didn't feel like reporting it, but that priest went on to
do it to others, you're saying that's fine?? That if Jerome didn't consider
it to be bad that it was nobody else's business?>
** No, I'm saying that's life. That's why people SHOULD tell about and report it, so it doesn't happen again. That's abuse, and should always be reported.
Sick and wrong again.
** Maybe it's wrong in your world, but not mine.
That's why people are afraid to report rape and abuse, because they're afraid
other adults will look away.
** And they do. That's a reality. Doesn't change the fact that it IS abuse and should be reported. I've been on both sides..... I've been abused, almost raped.... and I've had a good friend who messed up bad and raped someone.
By this reasoning, if the girl is spanked harder later it's my fault. That's
stupid.
** No, not your fault. There's another word I'm looking for and can't think of. Hmmm. I've lost it. You should just be aware that this is a real possiblity and act accordingly. If the family are NOT abusers, it will only maybe convince them to only spank in their home. If they ARE abusers, it can put the child in real danger. And you have no way of telling if they are abusers or not.
So if a man is hitting a woman in a restaurant (Village Inn on Central in
Albuquerque) that other diners should not move to take him off her? (Me and
Cathyn, two years ago, kept her from being kicked any more, after she had
been hit, dragged out of a booth, and kicked.)
You would have just ignored it and let it go?
** I've been on both sides of this issue, too. Actually, you can be doing more harm than good here too. IF the lady reached out or called out or indicated she wanted help, then by all means, help her. But if not, the best thing to do would be to call the cops. If she's planning on staying with the guy, (even tho that's a lousy and stupid choice) he could very well turn on her later at home and accuse her of calling friends to interfere with their lives. Hard call, since you can't know.
Are you calling your child lazybones more now because people here asked you
not to?
** No, but neither do I have the need to reaffirm my beliefs just because someone else doesn't agree with them. Many people do.
Doctors and teachers have obligations to report abuse when they see it. So
do some other professions.
If your husband is beating you and you are afraid to report it, by your own
rules you wouldn't want anyone else to report it either because they might be
killed or you might be hit harder later?
** Been there (kinda). And yes, I was glad no one reported it. Still don't regret that choice. If I'd felt it was in my best interests to report it, I would have done so or asked someone else to do so. Reporting it would have created a whole, even bigger, set of problems, though. I'm glad my friends respected my choice and me enough to find out my wishes before running off half-cocked and doing something about it.
Please clarify, because what you have written here is frightening.
Sandra
** Life is frightening - also wonderful, joyful, disappointing, and a lot of other things too. But it seems like you're trying to purposely mis-understand me. Abuse of a child should always be reported. I think that is fact, and no one will disagree. I believe, and some may disagree, than an adult should make the choice of whether or not to report abuse of theirself based on several factors, including what they personally want, whether it's possible to happen to someone else, and what they likely results will be. There is a great difference in abuse and in a parent discliplining their child with a spanking, though.
Myranda
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
None knew they were one of several. Each thought she should be courteous and
keep the peace.
** If they felt wronged or violated, they should have done something about it. It shouldn't matter how many it happened to.
You're wrong about it not being my business. I have been in this group for
25 and a half years, investing a HUGE amount of time, energy, money and
spirit. And a drunken asshole should NOT be able to run roughshod over
innocent young girls, undoing the trust and safety other have worked for
years to provide. And he resigned his knighthood under pressure.
** OK, I'm confused. First you say women, now innocent young girls? There is a big difference there. A young girl should still be under the protection of her parents and other adults she is with, and they should have known and taken care of the problem.
If you got a sack of flaming dogshit on your porch would you call the police?
** No. Not unless I knew who did it and found it meant something more than just a child playing a prank.
If you thought you were the only one would you? If you knew you were one of
six or a hundred would you be more likely?
** What does that matter? No, I wouldn't be any more likely or less likely to report something whether others did or didn't have it happen to them. Makes no difference.
If a child is too afraid to call the authorities against his parents, then
you are saying others shouldn't worry about it? If a teenaged girl is
grabbed by four drunks in an alley you wouldn't try to help her?
** I think I've said several time that abuse should be reported. I would not try to help anyone in that situation because my children are always with me, and no matter how I feel about helping others I wouldn't put my children's lives at risk for someone else, anyone else. If I was alone, I'd do something in a heartbeat - but again, that's abuse, not family interactions.
Compassion
Courage
Conviction
Legal obligation, in many cases.
** What about the courage to let others live as they see fit? There is no one right way, their way could be just as right to them as your way is to you. Again, unless abuse is happening, give them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps ask "Do you need some help/want some advice" instead of forcing it on them.
Now you've contradicted yourself within the same post.
No one of those women knew the extent of the damage. They were much angrier
when they got home and found out how many similar incidents there had been.
** I haven't contradicted myself at all. I'm confused. It's wrong, and abuse, to do that to any person, decisions shouldn't be made on how to react, whether to report, based on how many people it happened to. They each had the responsibility to report what happened to them, no matter what may have happened to another person.
They were afraid of him. They were afraid others would think badly of THEM
if they reported him because he had rank.
** I understand fear. But they still had a choice.
I'm stunned that you say that. Stunned you could think of it.
** Why? It's about respecting others choices.
If Holly my daughter who is ten were being abused here and the neighbors
suspected it, or saw it, and thought "Well, if she didn't ask for advice, I
have no right to interfere," they would be accomplices.
** Of course. That's abuse. Something should be done about it. Most times when people step in and give their two cents worth to parents, it's not for abuse, it's for parenting issues.
What are you saying?
We all wear blinders and let horrors go unnoted and unaddressed?
** No. Call someone to report abuse or "horrors" and leave the every-day family interactions alone.
"No one is right all the time" is the same argument this horrible former
knight used. He said "You can't accuse me of anything because you're not pe
rfect."
I thought that was his personal idiocy and now I read it HERE!??
** That doesn't have anything to do with parents dealing with their children on a daily basis. If you break the law, you answer to the law. The people who uphold the law don't have to be perfect. What I'm saying is that parents don't all share the same child-rearing philosophies and it's not realistic to expect to change people's entire way of doing things by making them feel attacked and turning their children against them, which is what happens a lot when someone steps in and gives unsolicited advice.
My children DO want to hear what they are wrong and they DO listen if I tell
them.
Are you saying you don't tell your children when they're wrong?
Are you saying your children don't listen?
** No, I don't. I ask them questions about how they'd feel, what might be a better way, how it makes me feel, etc. and let them come to their own conclusions. They do this remarkably well, and if they come to a different conclusion than I would have made, that doesn't make them wrong. If I can trust my children to make the right choices for themselves, surely I can trust adults to do the same.
ARE YOU SAYING you would never act or speak in defense of someone being
wronged by someone bigger or worse?
** That's a broad statement. If they are a normal, healthy adult, they can speak up for themselves, reach out for help if they want it and are willing to accept it. Encourage them to do so if they're open to encouragement. If they are a child..... well, as I've said, I'd report abuse. A child picking on another, I'd re-direct them, maybe send them to their parents. A parent discliplining her child.... their business, as long as it's not abuse.
Do you think it was wrong of people to bring the priest abuses to light?
** I think everyone should be made aware of sexual abusers no matter what they make a living doing.
My
friend Jerome was molested by a priest for over a year, when he was 7 and 8
years old. If he didn't feel like reporting it, but that priest went on to
do it to others, you're saying that's fine?? That if Jerome didn't consider
it to be bad that it was nobody else's business?>
** No, I'm saying that's life. That's why people SHOULD tell about and report it, so it doesn't happen again. That's abuse, and should always be reported.
Sick and wrong again.
** Maybe it's wrong in your world, but not mine.
That's why people are afraid to report rape and abuse, because they're afraid
other adults will look away.
** And they do. That's a reality. Doesn't change the fact that it IS abuse and should be reported. I've been on both sides..... I've been abused, almost raped.... and I've had a good friend who messed up bad and raped someone.
By this reasoning, if the girl is spanked harder later it's my fault. That's
stupid.
** No, not your fault. There's another word I'm looking for and can't think of. Hmmm. I've lost it. You should just be aware that this is a real possiblity and act accordingly. If the family are NOT abusers, it will only maybe convince them to only spank in their home. If they ARE abusers, it can put the child in real danger. And you have no way of telling if they are abusers or not.
So if a man is hitting a woman in a restaurant (Village Inn on Central in
Albuquerque) that other diners should not move to take him off her? (Me and
Cathyn, two years ago, kept her from being kicked any more, after she had
been hit, dragged out of a booth, and kicked.)
You would have just ignored it and let it go?
** I've been on both sides of this issue, too. Actually, you can be doing more harm than good here too. IF the lady reached out or called out or indicated she wanted help, then by all means, help her. But if not, the best thing to do would be to call the cops. If she's planning on staying with the guy, (even tho that's a lousy and stupid choice) he could very well turn on her later at home and accuse her of calling friends to interfere with their lives. Hard call, since you can't know.
Are you calling your child lazybones more now because people here asked you
not to?
** No, but neither do I have the need to reaffirm my beliefs just because someone else doesn't agree with them. Many people do.
Doctors and teachers have obligations to report abuse when they see it. So
do some other professions.
If your husband is beating you and you are afraid to report it, by your own
rules you wouldn't want anyone else to report it either because they might be
killed or you might be hit harder later?
** Been there (kinda). And yes, I was glad no one reported it. Still don't regret that choice. If I'd felt it was in my best interests to report it, I would have done so or asked someone else to do so. Reporting it would have created a whole, even bigger, set of problems, though. I'm glad my friends respected my choice and me enough to find out my wishes before running off half-cocked and doing something about it.
Please clarify, because what you have written here is frightening.
Sandra
** Life is frightening - also wonderful, joyful, disappointing, and a lot of other things too. But it seems like you're trying to purposely mis-understand me. Abuse of a child should always be reported. I think that is fact, and no one will disagree. I believe, and some may disagree, than an adult should make the choice of whether or not to report abuse of theirself based on several factors, including what they personally want, whether it's possible to happen to someone else, and what they likely results will be. There is a great difference in abuse and in a parent discliplining their child with a spanking, though.
Myranda
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: SandraDodd@...
Maybe mommy needs to grow up.
** Maybe. But you can't hurry that up, only she and her situation can.
Myranda you're talking like someone who is involved in or has been around
frightening abuse. There are lots of online discussions and e-mail loops for
survivors of abuse. I doubt that they're recommending more secrecy to
protect the abused.
** I'm not recommending secrecy about abuse. I'm recommending choosing carefully before stepping in between a family and their parenting philosophy.
The woman I spoke to outside the library was out of control, and she was
insulting and threatening the girl who was with her. My children had never
seen such a thing in their lives. It became my business in part because my
kids were close-up witnesses.
** OK, but you didn't say that in your first post about it. You said "spanked". There is a big difference between a couple swats on the butt and what you describe above. Threats could very well equal abuse, and something should be done in that case.
Lack of death doesn't equate with not abused.
** Neither do a swat on the butt or hand equal abuse.
Maybe the reason "lazybones" didnt' seem abusive to you is that it is so far
from the abuse you've seen and heard of.
** OK, can that "lazybones" thing die in peace yet? Pretty please?
Then YOU go ahead ignoring other people's abuse, but don't come here and tell
us to ignore it too. When the abuse stops it will be because people like me
said something or showed better examples, it won't be because of people like
you defending abusers and ignoring abuse.
** I never said I'd ignore abuse, and certainly not abuse of a child. I never said for you all to ignore it either. I don't recall ever defending an abuser either.
When yoiu first came on this board weren't you talking about having problems
with social services?
** Nope, not me.
If parents are not ready to find alternatives, the
children might be still ready to be saved from parents who are not being good
parents.
** Who gets to define "good parents"? The state? The child? Where do those definitions come from? Dr Spock or Dr Sears? The family doctor? The local school system? Who decides if they are "good parents" who sometimes slip up or if they are "bad parents" who pretend to be good? :::thinking this ties in to the thread about children's rights:::
Some families don't know there is any alternative to hunt for.
** Surely they do. No one can grow to be an adult without learning that there are at least 20 different ways to do any given thing, can they?
Many people dedicate their lives to making those alternatives easily
available.
** There need to be more people like that, they are truely wonderful to do that.
Taking his kids away or his wife leaving might do it.
Yes, alcohol protects itself. Drugs protect themselves.
Child abuse is neither alcohol nor a drug.
Sandra
** No, but the person still has to WANT to stop doing it.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe mommy needs to grow up.
** Maybe. But you can't hurry that up, only she and her situation can.
Myranda you're talking like someone who is involved in or has been around
frightening abuse. There are lots of online discussions and e-mail loops for
survivors of abuse. I doubt that they're recommending more secrecy to
protect the abused.
** I'm not recommending secrecy about abuse. I'm recommending choosing carefully before stepping in between a family and their parenting philosophy.
The woman I spoke to outside the library was out of control, and she was
insulting and threatening the girl who was with her. My children had never
seen such a thing in their lives. It became my business in part because my
kids were close-up witnesses.
** OK, but you didn't say that in your first post about it. You said "spanked". There is a big difference between a couple swats on the butt and what you describe above. Threats could very well equal abuse, and something should be done in that case.
Lack of death doesn't equate with not abused.
** Neither do a swat on the butt or hand equal abuse.
Maybe the reason "lazybones" didnt' seem abusive to you is that it is so far
from the abuse you've seen and heard of.
** OK, can that "lazybones" thing die in peace yet? Pretty please?
Then YOU go ahead ignoring other people's abuse, but don't come here and tell
us to ignore it too. When the abuse stops it will be because people like me
said something or showed better examples, it won't be because of people like
you defending abusers and ignoring abuse.
** I never said I'd ignore abuse, and certainly not abuse of a child. I never said for you all to ignore it either. I don't recall ever defending an abuser either.
When yoiu first came on this board weren't you talking about having problems
with social services?
** Nope, not me.
If parents are not ready to find alternatives, the
children might be still ready to be saved from parents who are not being good
parents.
** Who gets to define "good parents"? The state? The child? Where do those definitions come from? Dr Spock or Dr Sears? The family doctor? The local school system? Who decides if they are "good parents" who sometimes slip up or if they are "bad parents" who pretend to be good? :::thinking this ties in to the thread about children's rights:::
Some families don't know there is any alternative to hunt for.
** Surely they do. No one can grow to be an adult without learning that there are at least 20 different ways to do any given thing, can they?
Many people dedicate their lives to making those alternatives easily
available.
** There need to be more people like that, they are truely wonderful to do that.
Taking his kids away or his wife leaving might do it.
Yes, alcohol protects itself. Drugs protect themselves.
Child abuse is neither alcohol nor a drug.
Sandra
** No, but the person still has to WANT to stop doing it.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
I've found that just because the person watching knows the spanking is for one of those safety issues or something like, doesn't necessarily stop them from speaking up. That's when I'm talking about they shouldn't say anything.
Myranda
From: Kelli Traaseth
Myranda,
I think we know that a spank from a parent for running out into the street, or playing with fire or something to those extremes are what people say they would spank for, but don't you think then maybe the person interfering saw the circumstances?
When I've seen it, it is when the parent is aggravated and can't control their child in public. Like a store or something, or a library is where I've noticed. And their safety is not in jepardy.
We can all talk in generalities, but the truth to me rings loud and clear.
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Kelli Traaseth
Myranda,
I think we know that a spank from a parent for running out into the street, or playing with fire or something to those extremes are what people say they would spank for, but don't you think then maybe the person interfering saw the circumstances?
When I've seen it, it is when the parent is aggravated and can't control their child in public. Like a store or something, or a library is where I've noticed. And their safety is not in jepardy.
We can all talk in generalities, but the truth to me rings loud and clear.
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
Sorry, but I know lots of adults who don't know any other way. And they aren't uneducated or idiots. They are all in denial that anything is wrong. They grew up with the abuse and then usually married someone abusive. And then unfortunately their children were raised in that abuse.
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: SandraDodd@...
Maybe mommy needs to grow up.
** Maybe. But you can't hurry that up, only she and her situation can.
Myranda you're talking like someone who is involved in or has been around
frightening abuse. There are lots of online discussions and e-mail loops for
survivors of abuse. I doubt that they're recommending more secrecy to
protect the abused.
** I'm not recommending secrecy about abuse. I'm recommending choosing carefully before stepping in between a family and their parenting philosophy.
The woman I spoke to outside the library was out of control, and she was
insulting and threatening the girl who was with her. My children had never
seen such a thing in their lives. It became my business in part because my
kids were close-up witnesses.
** OK, but you didn't say that in your first post about it. You said "spanked". There is a big difference between a couple swats on the butt and what you describe above. Threats could very well equal abuse, and something should be done in that case.
Lack of death doesn't equate with not abused.
** Neither do a swat on the butt or hand equal abuse.
Maybe the reason "lazybones" didnt' seem abusive to you is that it is so far
from the abuse you've seen and heard of.
** OK, can that "lazybones" thing die in peace yet? Pretty please?
Then YOU go ahead ignoring other people's abuse, but don't come here and tell
us to ignore it too. When the abuse stops it will be because people like me
said something or showed better examples, it won't be because of people like
you defending abusers and ignoring abuse.
** I never said I'd ignore abuse, and certainly not abuse of a child. I never said for you all to ignore it either. I don't recall ever defending an abuser either.
When yoiu first came on this board weren't you talking about having problems
with social services?
** Nope, not me.
If parents are not ready to find alternatives, the
children might be still ready to be saved from parents who are not being good
parents.
** Who gets to define "good parents"? The state? The child? Where do those definitions come from? Dr Spock or Dr Sears? The family doctor? The local school system? Who decides if they are "good parents" who sometimes slip up or if they are "bad parents" who pretend to be good? :::thinking this ties in to the thread about children's rights:::
Some families don't know there is any alternative to hunt for.
** Surely they do
Many people dedicate their lives to making those alternatives easily
available.
** There need to be more people like that, they are truely wonderful to do that.
Taking his kids away or his wife leaving might do it.
Yes, alcohol protects itself. Drugs protect themselves.
Child abuse is neither alcohol nor a drug.
Sandra
** No, but the person still has to WANT to stop doing it.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: SandraDodd@...
Maybe mommy needs to grow up.
** Maybe. But you can't hurry that up, only she and her situation can.
Myranda you're talking like someone who is involved in or has been around
frightening abuse. There are lots of online discussions and e-mail loops for
survivors of abuse. I doubt that they're recommending more secrecy to
protect the abused.
** I'm not recommending secrecy about abuse. I'm recommending choosing carefully before stepping in between a family and their parenting philosophy.
The woman I spoke to outside the library was out of control, and she was
insulting and threatening the girl who was with her. My children had never
seen such a thing in their lives. It became my business in part because my
kids were close-up witnesses.
** OK, but you didn't say that in your first post about it. You said "spanked". There is a big difference between a couple swats on the butt and what you describe above. Threats could very well equal abuse, and something should be done in that case.
Lack of death doesn't equate with not abused.
** Neither do a swat on the butt or hand equal abuse.
Maybe the reason "lazybones" didnt' seem abusive to you is that it is so far
from the abuse you've seen and heard of.
** OK, can that "lazybones" thing die in peace yet? Pretty please?
Then YOU go ahead ignoring other people's abuse, but don't come here and tell
us to ignore it too. When the abuse stops it will be because people like me
said something or showed better examples, it won't be because of people like
you defending abusers and ignoring abuse.
** I never said I'd ignore abuse, and certainly not abuse of a child. I never said for you all to ignore it either. I don't recall ever defending an abuser either.
When yoiu first came on this board weren't you talking about having problems
with social services?
** Nope, not me.
If parents are not ready to find alternatives, the
children might be still ready to be saved from parents who are not being good
parents.
** Who gets to define "good parents"? The state? The child? Where do those definitions come from? Dr Spock or Dr Sears? The family doctor? The local school system? Who decides if they are "good parents" who sometimes slip up or if they are "bad parents" who pretend to be good? :::thinking this ties in to the thread about children's rights:::
Some families don't know there is any alternative to hunt for.
** Surely they do
Many people dedicate their lives to making those alternatives easily
available.
** There need to be more people like that, they are truely wonderful to do that.
Taking his kids away or his wife leaving might do it.
Yes, alcohol protects itself. Drugs protect themselves.
Child abuse is neither alcohol nor a drug.
Sandra
** No, but the person still has to WANT to stop doing it.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Peggy
Your points of this compass seem to be child wrong and spanking is
not violence.
** Hmmmm. Well, unless I am in the situation, I would assume that the child did do something wrong that caused the parent to want to spank him or her. I wouldn't think the parent just likes to give out spankings for the fun of it. As for spanking being violence, I don't know. I havent' thought of it that way before, honestly. I just *know* that it's wrong for me and my kids.
I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
** Everything is a choice. Maybe wrong, maybe right, but still a choice.
Myranda, here you are sympathizing with the adult, not the child.
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
** No, that's not what I'm saying.
When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
** A differing opinion has never bothered me, even when I'm not sure of something. Opinions stated as facts and no discussion allowed do bother me.
Maybe this is a southern thing.
** People don't spank as much in the north or west? I haven't been out of the south since I've become a parent, so I wasn't really noticing how people treated their children then.
Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter.
** Quite possible.
Maybe it
doesn't touch yours.
** Unless it's done in anger or other high emotional state, I guess spanking really doesn't bother me. I don't like it, I don't do it, but no, it doesn't really bother me.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
** But you can't force change on people by butting in and telling them off. Gently... with honey.... offer help, offer guidance, offer a book! Give your phone number or e-mail address, along with a short note (if you want to stop spanking and get along with your daughter, call me, I can help).
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your points of this compass seem to be child wrong and spanking is
not violence.
** Hmmmm. Well, unless I am in the situation, I would assume that the child did do something wrong that caused the parent to want to spank him or her. I wouldn't think the parent just likes to give out spankings for the fun of it. As for spanking being violence, I don't know. I havent' thought of it that way before, honestly. I just *know* that it's wrong for me and my kids.
I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
** Everything is a choice. Maybe wrong, maybe right, but still a choice.
Myranda, here you are sympathizing with the adult, not the child.
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
** No, that's not what I'm saying.
When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
** A differing opinion has never bothered me, even when I'm not sure of something. Opinions stated as facts and no discussion allowed do bother me.
Maybe this is a southern thing.
** People don't spank as much in the north or west? I haven't been out of the south since I've become a parent, so I wasn't really noticing how people treated their children then.
Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter.
** Quite possible.
Maybe it
doesn't touch yours.
** Unless it's done in anger or other high emotional state, I guess spanking really doesn't bother me. I don't like it, I don't do it, but no, it doesn't really bother me.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
** But you can't force change on people by butting in and telling them off. Gently... with honey.... offer help, offer guidance, offer a book! Give your phone number or e-mail address, along with a short note (if you want to stop spanking and get along with your daughter, call me, I can help).
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
I would definitely have to say something. To your SIL. Doesn't seem like
your brother is concerned enough right now with everything going on to make
a change. She is the mother and the one that does those things to her child.
Talk to her in a I'm concerned/I can offer advice/I will help kind of way.
Maybe she just has no other resources right now to know any better. Maybe
that's how she was brought up and thinks this is the only way or just
doesn't know how to make a change. There could be a lot of reasons why. You
could very well be the one person to make a difference in this child's life
right now and also that of your brother, SIL and new addition.
If she doesn't want to get it, I would then apply rules in your house that
apply to what she does to her child. It concerns your children too when they
have to witness that.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
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your brother is concerned enough right now with everything going on to make
a change. She is the mother and the one that does those things to her child.
Talk to her in a I'm concerned/I can offer advice/I will help kind of way.
Maybe she just has no other resources right now to know any better. Maybe
that's how she was brought up and thinks this is the only way or just
doesn't know how to make a change. There could be a lot of reasons why. You
could very well be the one person to make a difference in this child's life
right now and also that of your brother, SIL and new addition.
If she doesn't want to get it, I would then apply rules in your house that
apply to what she does to her child. It concerns your children too when they
have to witness that.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/02 12:27:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in
interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing.
"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule
of thumb in those situations, IMO. >>
ACK!! This is exactly the type of mentality that prevents people from getting
the support and help they need.
Unwillingness to involve yourself is a problem in this society. I'm not
talking about busybodies that just want to be rude and put people down, but
what about calling actions for what they are?
Spanking is abusive, whether that is your opinion or not, i know of people
whose lives were changed for the better when someone questioned them.
I read about a lady that did positive parenting courses that stood and stared
at a Mom swatting her toddler in a parking lot.
She stared until the lady noticed her and then said "you must be really
frustrated", the lady nodded in shocked agreement and then was offered a free
course on positive parenting. She went. She went and changed the way she was
parenting and quit spanking her children.
What if no one is willing to help? Willing to take some derision for noticing
bad behavior?
Where would this world be? How sad.
And I think maybe the other person was right that your child should have had
the item he wanted.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
No, I really, honestly believe that strangers should not get involved in
interactions within families. You never know the harm you can be causeing.
"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" is a good rule
of thumb in those situations, IMO. >>
ACK!! This is exactly the type of mentality that prevents people from getting
the support and help they need.
Unwillingness to involve yourself is a problem in this society. I'm not
talking about busybodies that just want to be rude and put people down, but
what about calling actions for what they are?
Spanking is abusive, whether that is your opinion or not, i know of people
whose lives were changed for the better when someone questioned them.
I read about a lady that did positive parenting courses that stood and stared
at a Mom swatting her toddler in a parking lot.
She stared until the lady noticed her and then said "you must be really
frustrated", the lady nodded in shocked agreement and then was offered a free
course on positive parenting. She went. She went and changed the way she was
parenting and quit spanking her children.
What if no one is willing to help? Willing to take some derision for noticing
bad behavior?
Where would this world be? How sad.
And I think maybe the other person was right that your child should have had
the item he wanted.
Ren
Peggy
Kelli Traaseth wrote:
A term used to describe an exaggerated dependent pattern of learned
behaviors, beliefs, and feelings that make life painful. It is a
dependence on people and things outside the self, along with neglect
of the person to the point of having little self identity.
This is what Myranda wrote when she was comparing stepping in to
stop a child being abused with a man who drinks too much:
There are more choices than this -- people deeply into destructive
relationships choose to limit their choices, like getting the hell
out, so that they are "trapped" into staying. Then it isn't "their"
fault and they can even feel noble about not taking responsibilty.
Peggy
>This is one definition I found online:
> Peggy and Sandra,
> I think I would like to know what co-dependency is? Would you know a definition for it? I will research it too but I thought since you are right here, maybe you'd be up for answering this?
>
> Thanks,
> Kelli
A term used to describe an exaggerated dependent pattern of learned
behaviors, beliefs, and feelings that make life painful. It is a
dependence on people and things outside the self, along with neglect
of the person to the point of having little self identity.
This is what Myranda wrote when she was comparing stepping in to
stop a child being abused with a man who drinks too much:
> It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.As if choosing not to upset the drunk is the only option available.
There are more choices than this -- people deeply into destructive
relationships choose to limit their choices, like getting the hell
out, so that they are "trapped" into staying. Then it isn't "their"
fault and they can even feel noble about not taking responsibilty.
Peggy
Myranda
:*(
From: Kelli Traaseth
Sorry, but I know lots of adults who don't know any other way. And they aren't uneducated or idiots. They are all in denial that anything is wrong. They grew up with the abuse and then usually married someone abusive. And then unfortunately their children were raised in that abuse.
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Kelli Traaseth
Sorry, but I know lots of adults who don't know any other way. And they aren't uneducated or idiots. They are all in denial that anything is wrong. They grew up with the abuse and then usually married someone abusive. And then unfortunately their children were raised in that abuse.
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
ACK!! This is exactly the type of mentality that prevents people from getting
the support and help they need.
Unwillingness to involve yourself is a problem in this society. I'm not
talking about busybodies that just want to be rude and put people down, but
what about calling actions for what they are?
** I dont' think there's anything wrong with offering help or advice, but ask if they want it first!!! Don't just jump in and say "you're wrong".
Spanking is abusive, whether that is your opinion or not, i know of people
whose lives were changed for the better when someone questioned them.
I read about a lady that did positive parenting courses that stood and stared
at a Mom swatting her toddler in a parking lot.
She stared until the lady noticed her and then said "you must be really
frustrated", the lady nodded in shocked agreement and then was offered a free
course on positive parenting. She went. She went and changed the way she was
parenting and quit spanking her children.
** Now that was great!!! She didnt' attack her for spanking or tell her to handle things differently or anything judgemental like that.
What if no one is willing to help? Willing to take some derision for noticing
bad behavior?
Where would this world be? How sad.
** There again.... who's to say that it's "bad"? It could just be something someone doesn't agree with, as in the cases of people telling me I should send my kids to school. In their opinion, I'm "bad" for not sending my kids to public school.
And I think maybe the other person was right that your child should have had
the item he wanted.
Ren
** I think everyone should have everything they want, but things just don't happen that way. And screaming and hitting never has made money magically appear in pockets. <g> If it did, I'd pitch a temper tantrum in a second! I am curious though, why do you think a child should be given something he wants after he's been told he couldn't have it, had the reasons explained, and decides to pitch a duck fit about it? I would think that would just lead to more tantrums any time the answer to things had to be "no" or "not now".
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the support and help they need.
Unwillingness to involve yourself is a problem in this society. I'm not
talking about busybodies that just want to be rude and put people down, but
what about calling actions for what they are?
** I dont' think there's anything wrong with offering help or advice, but ask if they want it first!!! Don't just jump in and say "you're wrong".
Spanking is abusive, whether that is your opinion or not, i know of people
whose lives were changed for the better when someone questioned them.
I read about a lady that did positive parenting courses that stood and stared
at a Mom swatting her toddler in a parking lot.
She stared until the lady noticed her and then said "you must be really
frustrated", the lady nodded in shocked agreement and then was offered a free
course on positive parenting. She went. She went and changed the way she was
parenting and quit spanking her children.
** Now that was great!!! She didnt' attack her for spanking or tell her to handle things differently or anything judgemental like that.
What if no one is willing to help? Willing to take some derision for noticing
bad behavior?
Where would this world be? How sad.
** There again.... who's to say that it's "bad"? It could just be something someone doesn't agree with, as in the cases of people telling me I should send my kids to school. In their opinion, I'm "bad" for not sending my kids to public school.
And I think maybe the other person was right that your child should have had
the item he wanted.
Ren
** I think everyone should have everything they want, but things just don't happen that way. And screaming and hitting never has made money magically appear in pockets. <g> If it did, I'd pitch a temper tantrum in a second! I am curious though, why do you think a child should be given something he wants after he's been told he couldn't have it, had the reasons explained, and decides to pitch a duck fit about it? I would think that would just lead to more tantrums any time the answer to things had to be "no" or "not now".
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:33:33 -0400 "Myranda" <myrandab@...>
writes:
them. People *choose* to hit. This is how abusers of all kids justify
their actions - "She made me do it!".
The whole concept of a child doing something "wrong" leaves a bad taste
in my mouth. Children - people - do things that are rude, or unkind, or
inappropriate to a situation, or annoying, but "wrong" is a strong moral
judgement, not a decsriptions of a behavior.
Dar
writes:
> ** Hmmmm. Well, unless I am in the situation, I would assume that*Nothing* a child - or anyone - does "causes" someone to hit (spank)
> the child did do something wrong that caused the parent to want to
> spank him or her.
them. People *choose* to hit. This is how abusers of all kids justify
their actions - "She made me do it!".
The whole concept of a child doing something "wrong" leaves a bad taste
in my mouth. Children - people - do things that are rude, or unkind, or
inappropriate to a situation, or annoying, but "wrong" is a strong moral
judgement, not a decsriptions of a behavior.
Dar
Myranda
From: freeform@...
"Myranda" > ** Hmmmm. Well, unless I am in the situation, I would assume that
them. People *choose* to hit. This is how abusers of all kids justify
their actions - "She made me do it!".
** I agree. Notice I said "that caused the parent to WANT to spank", I didn't say they caused someone to spank.
The whole concept of a child doing something "wrong" leaves a bad taste
in my mouth. Children - people - do things that are rude, or unkind, or
inappropriate to a situation, or annoying, but "wrong" is a strong moral
judgement, not a decsriptions of a behavior.
Dar
** "Wrong" is usually the word parents who spank use to describe their children's behavior, that's why I used that word there.
Myranda
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"Myranda" > ** Hmmmm. Well, unless I am in the situation, I would assume that
> the child did do something wrong that caused the parent to want to*Nothing* a child - or anyone - does "causes" someone to hit (spank)
> spank him or her.
them. People *choose* to hit. This is how abusers of all kids justify
their actions - "She made me do it!".
** I agree. Notice I said "that caused the parent to WANT to spank", I didn't say they caused someone to spank.
The whole concept of a child doing something "wrong" leaves a bad taste
in my mouth. Children - people - do things that are rude, or unkind, or
inappropriate to a situation, or annoying, but "wrong" is a strong moral
judgement, not a decsriptions of a behavior.
Dar
** "Wrong" is usually the word parents who spank use to describe their children's behavior, that's why I used that word there.
Myranda
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Kelli Traaseth
Am I missing out on something?
Who's daughter are you talking about?
Sorry if I missed something.
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: Peggy
Your points of this compass seem to be child wrong and spanking is
not violence.
** Hmmmm. Well, unless I am in the situation, I would assume that the child did do something wrong that caused the parent to want to spank him or her. I wouldn't think the parent just likes to give out spankings for the fun of it. As for spanking being violence, I don't know. I havent' thought of it that way before, honestly. I just *know* that it's wrong for me and my kids.
I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
** Everything is a choice. Maybe wrong, maybe right, but still a choice.
Myranda, here you are sympathizing with the adult, not the child.
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
** No, that's not what I'm saying.
When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
** A differing opinion has never bothered me, even when I'm not sure of something. Opinions stated as facts and no discussion allowed do bother me.
Maybe this is a southern thing.
** People don't spank as much in the north or west? I haven't been out of the south since I've become a parent, so I wasn't really noticing how people treated their children then.
Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter.
** Quite possible.
Maybe it
doesn't touch yours.
** Unless it's done in anger or other high emotional state, I guess spanking really doesn't bother me. I don't like it, I don't do it, but no, it doesn't really bother me.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
** But you can't force change on people by butting in and telling them off. Gently... with honey.... offer help, offer guidance, offer a book! Give your phone number or e-mail address, along with a short note (if you want to stop spanking and get along with your daughter, call me, I can help).
Myranda
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Who's daughter are you talking about?
Sorry if I missed something.
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: Peggy
Your points of this compass seem to be child wrong and spanking is
not violence.
** Hmmmm. Well, unless I am in the situation, I would assume that the child did do something wrong that caused the parent to want to spank him or her. I wouldn't think the parent just likes to give out spankings for the fun of it. As for spanking being violence, I don't know. I havent' thought of it that way before, honestly. I just *know* that it's wrong for me and my kids.
I don't agree. I came from a spanking, hitting,
getting out the wooden spoons environment and I also came from a
let's call those guys *N* and those other guys *S* and they are not
white like us environment. I had to reach beyond my comfort zone and
grow to come to understand how both are dehumanizing, not just to
those that get hit and called names, but also to the person doing
the hitting and the name calling. It is simply wrong. Not a
"choice".
** Everything is a choice. Maybe wrong, maybe right, but still a choice.
Myranda, here you are sympathizing with the adult, not the child.
What you are really saying is that the adult needs to be protected.
** No, that's not what I'm saying.
When we are really sure of something it doesn't bother us a
bit to have a differing opinion on it.
** A differing opinion has never bothered me, even when I'm not sure of something. Opinions stated as facts and no discussion allowed do bother me.
Maybe this is a southern thing.
** People don't spank as much in the north or west? I haven't been out of the south since I've become a parent, so I wasn't really noticing how people treated their children then.
Maybe the
people you meet on a day to day basis are so desensitized to other's
pain that it doesn't even touch their feeling meter.
** Quite possible.
Maybe it
doesn't touch yours.
** Unless it's done in anger or other high emotional state, I guess spanking really doesn't bother me. I don't like it, I don't do it, but no, it doesn't really bother me.
We are society. We are the change that makes better lives possible
for all of us -- children too. Today's beaten and bullied and
violated child is tomorrow's abuser. We get it now.
Peggy
** But you can't force change on people by butting in and telling them off. Gently... with honey.... offer help, offer guidance, offer a book! Give your phone number or e-mail address, along with a short note (if you want to stop spanking and get along with your daughter, call me, I can help).
Myranda
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Kelli Traaseth
Thanks Peggy.
Kelli
Peggy <peggy@...> wrote:
Kelli Traaseth wrote:
A term used to describe an exaggerated dependent pattern of learned
behaviors, beliefs, and feelings that make life painful. It is a
dependence on people and things outside the self, along with neglect
of the person to the point of having little self identity.
This is what Myranda wrote when she was comparing stepping in to
stop a child being abused with a man who drinks too much:
There are more choices than this -- people deeply into destructive
relationships choose to limit their choices, like getting the hell
out, so that they are "trapped" into staying. Then it isn't "their"
fault and they can even feel noble about not taking responsibilty.
Peggy
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Kelli
Peggy <peggy@...> wrote:
Kelli Traaseth wrote:
>This is one definition I found online:
> Peggy and Sandra,
> I think I would like to know what co-dependency is? Would you know a definition for it? I will research it too but I thought since you are right here, maybe you'd be up for answering this?
>
> Thanks,
> Kelli
A term used to describe an exaggerated dependent pattern of learned
behaviors, beliefs, and feelings that make life painful. It is a
dependence on people and things outside the self, along with neglect
of the person to the point of having little self identity.
This is what Myranda wrote when she was comparing stepping in to
stop a child being abused with a man who drinks too much:
> It's like telling an alcholic that he needs to stop drinking.... you'll upset him and he'll stop listening to you after a while, and nothing will get him to stop drinking til he decides he wants to stop and reaches out for help.As if choosing not to upset the drunk is the only option available.
There are more choices than this -- people deeply into destructive
relationships choose to limit their choices, like getting the hell
out, so that they are "trapped" into staying. Then it isn't "their"
fault and they can even feel noble about not taking responsibilty.
Peggy
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