Re: School Traumas
Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall
>Joel,Me too. I hated school with a passion. I had terrible problems with peers
>Gosh, you really did have a horrible time in school. I guess I was lucky,
>nothing like that ever happened in any of my classes.
>Teresa
which caused a number of traumas for me. Including a boy (who had been
held back 3 grades) molesting me in elementary school. I was beat up in
summer school on several occasions by boys, and had several really bad
teachers in a row in middle school. In general the atmosphere was of crowd
and damage control. If you were not a trouble maker but had academic
problems (like me) you were pretty much ignored. I did well on tests and
some academic areas (things I enjoyed or excelled at) but got no help for
my problem areas.
I knew three girls in middle school (11-13) who were alcholholics and used
to get drunk in the school yard at lunch. Another girl I knew was pregnant
by the end of 8th grade. I went to a HS in the worst neighborhhod in my
city. There were blood stains on the lockers because kids were stabbing
each other in the hallways. Going into the schoolyard during lunch was
like taking your life into your hands. I had to get rides from friends out
of the neighborhood in order to catch a city bus home from a safe
neighborhood, as there were crack dealers with automatic weapons at the bus
stops, and gangs riding the buses. No lie.
School was a challenge to my survival on a daily basis. My emotional
survival and my physical survival. Education was something that happened
at home where I was safe, in my own time. I remember very little that I
ever "learned" in school.
Nanci K. in Idaho
Pam Hartley
----------
Even when schooling doesn't include violence to our bodies, it does to our
minds. The "best" school in a district still has pack-based peer
socialization, enforced curriculum, testing and grading, and a student body
hopeless with the knowledge that they are literal prisoners, there is no way
out for the vast majority of these kids until they've served their time.
It is always really interesting to me to read about unschooled children who
decide, for one reason or another, to try out school. It's incredible what a
different experience they have, and because of one simple, basic change:
they know that they can leave any time and return to unschooling. They are
completely free to say, "Well, that's been enough of that, I'm done with
school," and walk out. AND WALK OUT! Think back to our schooling. Can you
even begin to IMAGINE what that "I can walk out anytime I want!" would have
*felt* like???
In that way, I almost think that such unschoolers attending school are
*still* unschooling (in the same way I think it's still unschooling even if
the child happens to be choosing to read her way through a stack of
textbooks that week). It's the *choice* part, the freedom that almost every
other schooled child lacks, that is unschooling.
It's why I think you can't "unschool everything except math". If you take
away educational freedom, even "just" for one thing, it's gone. Force is
force. Heck, IMHO bribery is less damaging by far ("Look, Hortensia, I am
really bothered because you don't know your multiplication tables and I feel
like a bad parent. To humor me, I'd like you to sit down with me every day
and learn them for 20 minutes. In exchange, I'll buy you a pack of Pokemon
cards when you can fill out the 10 x 10 grid, okay?")
At least that's a fair deal with negotiating room on both sides. :)
Pam
>From: [email protected]What a terrible experience you had, Nanci!
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 308
>Date: Sun, Nov 21, 1999, 3:13 AM
>
>School was a challenge to my survival on a daily basis. My emotional
>survival and my physical survival. Education was something that happened
>at home where I was safe, in my own time. I remember very little that I
>ever "learned" in school.
Even when schooling doesn't include violence to our bodies, it does to our
minds. The "best" school in a district still has pack-based peer
socialization, enforced curriculum, testing and grading, and a student body
hopeless with the knowledge that they are literal prisoners, there is no way
out for the vast majority of these kids until they've served their time.
It is always really interesting to me to read about unschooled children who
decide, for one reason or another, to try out school. It's incredible what a
different experience they have, and because of one simple, basic change:
they know that they can leave any time and return to unschooling. They are
completely free to say, "Well, that's been enough of that, I'm done with
school," and walk out. AND WALK OUT! Think back to our schooling. Can you
even begin to IMAGINE what that "I can walk out anytime I want!" would have
*felt* like???
In that way, I almost think that such unschoolers attending school are
*still* unschooling (in the same way I think it's still unschooling even if
the child happens to be choosing to read her way through a stack of
textbooks that week). It's the *choice* part, the freedom that almost every
other schooled child lacks, that is unschooling.
It's why I think you can't "unschool everything except math". If you take
away educational freedom, even "just" for one thing, it's gone. Force is
force. Heck, IMHO bribery is less damaging by far ("Look, Hortensia, I am
really bothered because you don't know your multiplication tables and I feel
like a bad parent. To humor me, I'd like you to sit down with me every day
and learn them for 20 minutes. In exchange, I'll buy you a pack of Pokemon
cards when you can fill out the 10 x 10 grid, okay?")
At least that's a fair deal with negotiating room on both sides. :)
Pam
Brown
Pam Hartley wrote:
school and after school and she was down at the school helping more often than
not, but she didn't want to homeschool (she was always supportive to me though).
One year, one of her daughters had a major personality clash with a teacher (who
had been one of the older daughter's favourite teachers). Nothing abusive - they
just didn't get on, couldn't relate to each other (my niece is very smart - and
very stubborn / assertive <g>). It got so bad, my sister told her daughter that
she could come home if she wanted. Well, she didn't come home, and suddenly
school wasn't so bad, and she and the teacher came to a better understanding of
each other, though it was never a comfortable relationship. But my sister told
me, she firmly believed that it was the knowledge that she COULD leave that
enable the child to cope with the situation.
Carol
> It is always really interesting to me to read about unschooled children whoMy sister never wanted to homeschool her kids. She was always there before
> decide, for one reason or another, to try out school. It's incredible what a
> different experience they have, and because of one simple, basic change:
> they know that they can leave any time and return to unschooling. They are
> completely free to say, "Well, that's been enough of that, I'm done with
> school," and walk out. AND WALK OUT! Think back to our schooling. Can you
> even begin to IMAGINE what that "I can walk out anytime I want!" would have
> *felt* like???
school and after school and she was down at the school helping more often than
not, but she didn't want to homeschool (she was always supportive to me though).
One year, one of her daughters had a major personality clash with a teacher (who
had been one of the older daughter's favourite teachers). Nothing abusive - they
just didn't get on, couldn't relate to each other (my niece is very smart - and
very stubborn / assertive <g>). It got so bad, my sister told her daughter that
she could come home if she wanted. Well, she didn't come home, and suddenly
school wasn't so bad, and she and the teacher came to a better understanding of
each other, though it was never a comfortable relationship. But my sister told
me, she firmly believed that it was the knowledge that she COULD leave that
enable the child to cope with the situation.
Carol
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/99 1:42:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< School was a challenge to my survival on a daily basis. My emotional
survival and my physical survival. >>
Oh bless you Nancy. I'm so glad you made it through. I hated my high school
but it was nothing compared to what you went through. It's so sad to think
that there are really good kids going through this today.
Laura
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< School was a challenge to my survival on a daily basis. My emotional
survival and my physical survival. >>
Oh bless you Nancy. I'm so glad you made it through. I hated my high school
but it was nothing compared to what you went through. It's so sad to think
that there are really good kids going through this today.
Laura
Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst
>Pam, if your niece never had that choice she could have ended up with"learned helplessness". I don't know if psychologists have 'studied this
phenomenon in humans.....I only remember animal studies showing that when in
a punishing situation with no avenue for escape, the subject essentially
gives up trying.
I imagine if your niece had felt there was 'no way out', it could have
'broken her spirit.'
Suz
>Pam Hartley wrote:snip....., for one reason or another, to try out school. It's incredible
>
what a
>> different experience they have, and because of one simple, basic change:are
>> they know that they can leave any time and return to unschooling. They
>> completely free to say, "Well, that's been enough of that, I'm done withsnip....It got so bad, my sister told her daughter that
>> school," and walk out. AND WALK OUT! ....snip
>she could come home if she wanted. Well, she didn't come home, and suddenlyunderstanding of
>school wasn't so bad, and she and the teacher came to a better
>each other, though it was never a comfortable relationship.....snip.
>
>Carol
>
>>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
[email protected]
Nanci,
You really had a horrible experience in school! I can only imagine what
it must have felt like. Another thing (of the MANY) that makes me mad about
public schools is that they make kids be there and then they aren't even
responsible enough to at least make sure they are in a safe (mentally and
physically) situation. Your experiences were some of the worst I've ever
heard but even in the so-called good schools, things go on which will scar
some kids for life.
My dad works at a middle school in a very affluent suburb of San Diego
and he can't believe some of the things that go on. Examples: a Chinese
girl whose parents had her in a private school in Taiwan apparently thought
it was unnecessary now with the "good school" available. She has a habit of
picking up pennies all the time and a group of popular boys noticed it and
thought it was weird. They started throwing pennies at her all the time,
making fun of her, etc. When my dad tried to reason with the boys about how
mean it was, they joked about it and didn't stop. When my dad talked to the
vice principal about it, the V.P. said that he himself thought the girl was
kind of weird. End of conversation. The girl is always alone, no friends.
In addition to the bad effects this has on the girl, it sure isn't doing much
to help those boys grow up to be the kind of people we need in our
communities.
This is just one small example. My dad has a new story every week or
more about this kind of stuff. I was already pretty burned out on public
schools when we moved back to Calfornia almost two years ago, but hearing my
dad's stories in the trenches of the system has really solidified my feelings
against them. There are good people in the system, trying to help kids, but
the system itself is so flawed that the bad always seem to far outweigh the
good.
Lucy in Calif.
You really had a horrible experience in school! I can only imagine what
it must have felt like. Another thing (of the MANY) that makes me mad about
public schools is that they make kids be there and then they aren't even
responsible enough to at least make sure they are in a safe (mentally and
physically) situation. Your experiences were some of the worst I've ever
heard but even in the so-called good schools, things go on which will scar
some kids for life.
My dad works at a middle school in a very affluent suburb of San Diego
and he can't believe some of the things that go on. Examples: a Chinese
girl whose parents had her in a private school in Taiwan apparently thought
it was unnecessary now with the "good school" available. She has a habit of
picking up pennies all the time and a group of popular boys noticed it and
thought it was weird. They started throwing pennies at her all the time,
making fun of her, etc. When my dad tried to reason with the boys about how
mean it was, they joked about it and didn't stop. When my dad talked to the
vice principal about it, the V.P. said that he himself thought the girl was
kind of weird. End of conversation. The girl is always alone, no friends.
In addition to the bad effects this has on the girl, it sure isn't doing much
to help those boys grow up to be the kind of people we need in our
communities.
This is just one small example. My dad has a new story every week or
more about this kind of stuff. I was already pretty burned out on public
schools when we moved back to Calfornia almost two years ago, but hearing my
dad's stories in the trenches of the system has really solidified my feelings
against them. There are good people in the system, trying to help kids, but
the system itself is so flawed that the bad always seem to far outweigh the
good.
Lucy in Calif.
Pam Hartley
----------
...learned helplessness is, as you say, a definite danger. I well remember
the study I read on dogs when I was a dog trainer.
WARNING TO GENTLER SOULS, READ NO FURTHER.
They took a series of dogs and put them on a metal plate in a square area
with no exits. They began shocking the dogs (electrically) and of course
each dog would run around desperately trying to get off the hot plate, to no
avail. The dogs tried *really* hard, including spectacular feats of jumping,
digging, etc. No way out.
Next day, they took the same dogs, did the same thing, same response.
At some point (I don't remember how many days), they would put the dogs into
the room, and the dogs would simply sit down or lay down, utterly defeated,
and let themselves be shocked without resistance.
The day after each dog "gave up", they put the dog in the square room, but
this time, major difference: they left a CLEAR AND OBVIOUS EXIT (the same
door they would take the dogs in and out every day to get into the room).
None of the dogs, when the electrical shocks began, attempted to escape.
None.
That's learned helplessness. That's what at least some kids in school are
feeling, probably many, maybe most.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Actually, it wasn't my niece (you'd snipped two segments :), but...
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 310
>Date: Tue, Nov 23, 1999, 2:53 AM
>
>>Pam, if your niece never had that choice she could have ended up with
>"learned helplessness". I don't know if psychologists have 'studied this
>phenomenon in humans.....I only remember animal studies showing that when in
>a punishing situation with no avenue for escape, the subject essentially
>gives up trying.
...learned helplessness is, as you say, a definite danger. I well remember
the study I read on dogs when I was a dog trainer.
WARNING TO GENTLER SOULS, READ NO FURTHER.
They took a series of dogs and put them on a metal plate in a square area
with no exits. They began shocking the dogs (electrically) and of course
each dog would run around desperately trying to get off the hot plate, to no
avail. The dogs tried *really* hard, including spectacular feats of jumping,
digging, etc. No way out.
Next day, they took the same dogs, did the same thing, same response.
At some point (I don't remember how many days), they would put the dogs into
the room, and the dogs would simply sit down or lay down, utterly defeated,
and let themselves be shocked without resistance.
The day after each dog "gave up", they put the dog in the square room, but
this time, major difference: they left a CLEAR AND OBVIOUS EXIT (the same
door they would take the dogs in and out every day to get into the room).
None of the dogs, when the electrical shocks began, attempted to escape.
None.
That's learned helplessness. That's what at least some kids in school are
feeling, probably many, maybe most.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/99 3:49:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
<< That's learned helplessness. That's what at least some kids in school are
feeling, probably many, maybe most. >>
I as a parent of ps kids felt that way and still do about the one still in.
When we experience injustice with the school I feel helpless because I know
how little if anything we can do to change what's going on or help ourselves.
This new zero tolerance thing is way overboard. Ridiculous in many instances.
Laura
pamhartley@... writes:
<< That's learned helplessness. That's what at least some kids in school are
feeling, probably many, maybe most. >>
I as a parent of ps kids felt that way and still do about the one still in.
When we experience injustice with the school I feel helpless because I know
how little if anything we can do to change what's going on or help ourselves.
This new zero tolerance thing is way overboard. Ridiculous in many instances.
Laura
Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst
that's what I was referring to.....you nailed it!
Suz
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 3:48 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: School Traumas
Suz
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 3:48 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: School Traumas
>From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...>in
>
>
>----------
>>From: [email protected]
>>To: [email protected]
>>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 310
>>Date: Tue, Nov 23, 1999, 2:53 AM
>>
>
>>>Pam, if your niece never had that choice she could have ended up with
>>"learned helplessness". I don't know if psychologists have 'studied this
>>phenomenon in humans.....I only remember animal studies showing that when
>>a punishing situation with no avenue for escape, the subject essentiallyno
>>gives up trying.
>
>Actually, it wasn't my niece (you'd snipped two segments :), but...
>
>...learned helplessness is, as you say, a definite danger. I well remember
>the study I read on dogs when I was a dog trainer.
>
>WARNING TO GENTLER SOULS, READ NO FURTHER.
>
>They took a series of dogs and put them on a metal plate in a square area
>with no exits. They began shocking the dogs (electrically) and of course
>each dog would run around desperately trying to get off the hot plate, to
>avail. The dogs tried *really* hard, including spectacular feats ofjumping,
>digging, etc. No way out.into
>
>Next day, they took the same dogs, did the same thing, same response.
>
>At some point (I don't remember how many days), they would put the dogs
>the room, and the dogs would simply sit down or lay down, utterly defeated,
>and let themselves be shocked without resistance.
>
>The day after each dog "gave up", they put the dog in the square room, but
>this time, major difference: they left a CLEAR AND OBVIOUS EXIT (the same
>door they would take the dogs in and out every day to get into the room).
>
>None of the dogs, when the electrical shocks began, attempted to escape.
>None.
>
>That's learned helplessness. That's what at least some kids in school are
>feeling, probably many, maybe most.
>
>Pam
>
>>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>