luv2unskool

Okay, I have been absorbing all of your advice regarding my daughter
and her attitude. I have been realizing that your words are ringing
true, and what I'm doing isn't working. I didn't know better, my
father was controlling. It's what I know, or should I say, KNEW.

My question is, what now? Do I have a heart to heart with my
daughter, and tell her there will be no punishments from me any
longer? She no longer needs to brush her teeth, or clean her room?

Also, what about when she does slam that playstation out of
frustration. Just sit and wait - if she breaks it, she pays for it?
(She and her brother share it). If she slams her violin in
frustration, how shall I handle it? There need to be basic,
considerate rules, for instance she can't throw things at the big
screen tv, and can't color on the walls...


Also, Sandra, I caught a posting the other day where you had asked
the boys to stay inside (am I getting it right?) - what if they
hadn't listened to you, and had gone outside anyway, and were loud
and disruptive? How would you have handled that?

Please excuse the ignorant questions, this concept is so new to me!
I would have punished with priviledges lost, or no allowance in the
past. Give me the tools, please!

the_clevengers

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "luv2unskool" <cmr0523@h...> wrote:
> My question is, what now?

I'd suggest a book called "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline".
I'm not crazy about the title, and I hate the picture on the cover of
the book (I suspect these came from the marketing department), but
the book itself is a gold mine of information on how to go from
punitive parenting into a child-respecting mode, without just
becoming a doormat for your kids to walk on. It is very eye-opening.
All other parenting books I've read have had some excellent parts to
them, but this is the foundation of information that they all stand
on that I felt was missing.

> Do I have a heart to heart with my
> daughter, and tell her there will be no punishments from me any
> longer? She no longer needs to brush her teeth, or clean her room?

Well, you can tell her there will be no more punishments. Does that
mean she no longer needs to brush her teeth? My own personal answer
would be no. Stepping away from punitive parenting doesn't mean you
have to become a completely permissive parent and allow your kids to
do anything. Teeth brushing is one of those things that is mandatory
in our house. Then again, I have a very sensory-avoidant first child
for whom teeth brushing is extremely difficult - it used to be on the
order of being tortured with hot irons - so I let it go for 2 years.
$2,000 of dental work for him under general anesthesia later, I
decided it was mandatory and we found ways to get past the sensory
issues. Live and learn!

We brush our teeth in the morning, and it must be done before we
leave the house. We brush our teeth at night, and it must be done
before I read stories. Sometimes it takes longer, sometimes shorter,
I help the kids when they want help, but it always gets done.
Sometimes they just do it, sometimes they request silly songs or
tooth brushing games. I think one important part of stepping away
from punitive parenting is removing anger as a response. This is
really, really tough! Being kind, patient, but firm is not something
most of us have in our parenting tool box, so we have to acquire it
somehow, and practice it daily. It's really easy to descend into
anger when you expect them to do something, like brush their teeth in
the next 5 minutes, and it doesn't get done. The anger itself is
punitive, though.


> Also, what about when she does slam that playstation out of
> frustration. Just sit and wait - if she breaks it, she pays for
it?
> (She and her brother share it).

Well, the rule in our house is that you can slam, throw, or hit soft
objects (foam balls, pillows), but that if hard objects get slammed
around or thrown, they go up until they can be used respectfully.
Usually that's just a few minutes until the person calms down. This
is a safety issue for me, and non-negotiable.

One thing that I reiterate with my kids constantly is the
following "Mom jobs". I tell them:

My first job is to love you
My second job is to keep you safe
My third job is to keep you healthy
My fourth job is to help you find happiness

So if my child is doing something dangerous (throwing a hard object),
it's my job to make sure they can't hurt themselves, things in our
house, or others with that object. Reminding them of my jobs first,
keeps it first in our hearts that I love them, and that I'm trying to
keep them safe and healthy. It lets them know that I'm trying to work
with them, not against them. Often, I ask them for creative ways that
we can solve a particular problem.

> If she slams her violin in
> frustration, how shall I handle it?

I guess that depends on how/why this is happening. Maybe she isn't
ready to be playing a delicate instrument if she is still in the
phase where she is slamming things around. Maybe you could have a
talk with her about the instrument, why it is valuable, other ways
she can take out her frustrations. Maybe have an alternative punching
bag sitting next to her while she practices that she knows she can
hit? A basket of nerf balls she can throw? Or find ways to reduce the
frustration she's feeling while playing? Does she feel a lot of
pressure to play it well (either coming from herself or her teacher
or others)? Are there ways to mitigate that pressure?

> There need to be basic,
> considerate rules, for instance she can't throw things at the big
> screen tv, and can't color on the walls...

Abandoning punitive parenting doesn't mean you have to go into
permissive parenting and just have a free-for-all anything-goes kind
of atmosphere. I found that it takes a paradigm shift. You have to
get more creative, think of yourself as someone who is helping your
kids learn the skills necessary to get along with other people, find
solutions to problems, find creative ways to vent anger, etc. This is
what I personally mean by "positive parenting", and we've found it
does work well in our family. My kids know that I'm on their side,
but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to guarantee their
happiness. If they break something, they need to find a way to help
fix it. I will help them problem-solve, assist them in any way they
can, but they take responsibility for their actions.

> Please excuse the ignorant questions, this concept is so new to
me!
> I would have punished with priviledges lost, or no allowance in the
> past. Give me the tools, please!

I would recommend a thousand times the book "Easy to Love, Difficult
to Discipline". I felt that more than any other book, this one
was "the toolbox". Of course, it depends on what you are striving
for. I found this book to be about positive parenting in a way that
didn't descend into permissiveness, which was exactly what I was
looking for.

Good luck!

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:21:21 -0000 "luv2unskool" <cmr0523@...>
writes:
> Also, what about when she does slam that playstation out of
> frustration. Just sit and wait - if she breaks it, she pays for it?
> (She and her brother share it).

I saw things like "Whoa! What's going on?".And then I listen. If she
seems up for it, I might go over and give the playstation a 'voice' -
"No, no, please don't beat me, I'll never cheat agaiiiinnnn!" or maybe
we'll shout "THIS GAME SUCKS!" really loud... or whatever. The message is
that I'm here, I can see that you're frustrated, and I'm on your side.
During a calmer moment, I might talk about breakage possibilities, maybe
mention my old nintendo that had one wire pulled loose and it was never
really well-fixed, that part always kept breaking... but it seems to me
that the newer machines are sturdier.

It's hard to start in the middle, so to speak. When kids have lived for 9
years like this, without punishments, they just act differently. You're
having to undue old patterns while creating new ones, and during the
process, things may get broken. Your "test" will be to respond without
punishment - to be honest about how you feel, to talk about the results
of those actions, but to work towards making things better.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/21/02 7:22:31 AM, cmr0523@... writes:

<< My question is, what now? Do I have a heart to heart with my
daughter, and tell her there will be no punishments from me any
longer? She no longer needs to brush her teeth, or clean her room? >>

I would go into it gradually. I would ask her more questions so there was
more communication from you to her, in the way of useful, loving, patient
communication rather than telling her how she screwed up.

Instead of saying "You don't need to clean up your room ever" (which isn't
right or true), maybe "I'm thinking I've been worrying too much about how
your room looks and not enough about how you feel, or how much we're
together."

Maybe go do something with her without cleaning the kitchen first, and say
"Let's just leave the messes and clean up later." That would be a clue to
her too. <g>

<<Also, what about when she does slam that playstation out of
frustration. >>>
Kirby had that problem. Broke a couple of controllers just dashing them on
the ground.

Two things helped: Him getting older, and us getting carpet.

(I bought another controller and said "THIS IS MINE, not yours, and I don't
want it broken.")

<<If she slams her violin in
frustration, how shall I handle it? >>

Yikes!

Tell her she needs to make a $400 deposit before she slams that around. Just
say it like it will be okay for her to slam it once her deposit is in the
bank on it. Say it like a joke, but mean it about 'no slamming.'

And if she really can't play without that much frustration, just wait a year
or three and see if she wants to take up the violin again.

<<There need to be basic,
considerate rules, for instance she can't throw things at the big
screen tv, and can't color on the walls... >>

I think when the overall tone of the relationship changes, much of the
frustration level will be lower and you won't have all those problems.

<<Also, Sandra, I caught a posting the other day where you had asked
the boys to stay inside (am I getting it right?) - what if they
hadn't listened to you, and had gone outside anyway, and were loud
and disruptive? How would you have handled that? >>

Since I had a broken leg and was stuck on the couch, it wouldn't have been
easy.

I would have called Logan's mom (I always collect and save every possible
phone number, home work and cell on every human my kids might be with) and
tell her to come over. I would have told her the problems I had the last
time Logan had been here, and asked her to take him home and talk to him
about being better here or not being here at all.

I would have just told Jeremy to go to sleep. He's more sensitive, and his
mom would have punished him too much. Probably grounding for two weeks and
extra chores. And since Marty likes to play with Jeremy, it would have ended
up punishing Marty too.

And I would have had Marty get me some food and drink, feed the dogs and
cats, turn off extra lights--useful actually needed stuff with me stuck on
the couch, but which also would have gotten some of his adrenaline out, and
me time to breathe. And then I would have talked to him calmly about WHY I
didn't want them out, and tell him if he didn't really believe in CPS, that I
do. And we don't need the neighbors grumpy at us. And I need to know where
they are, and if either of the boys' moms had called at midnight I did NOT
want my answer to be "I don't know," but "He's right here."

And the next time Marty asked if Logan could come over I would ask Marty if
he felt like he could control Logan a little better, and without an
affirmative answer, I would have said "yes, but not to spend the night."

Parts of all of that have happened before, and I know both of the moms pretty
well.

Sandra

[email protected]

<< Well, you can tell her there will be no more punishments. >>

I wouldn't. I'd let her figure it out gradually. You could say you're
unhappy that you punished her so much and so often and you wish you hadn't.
You could ask her for ideas about what to do in cases in which you would once
have punished. Probably for a while she will suggest things stronger than
you actually want to do. And you could go with that, saying "I think
grounded for a week is too much. What you did only took a second, and you
already seem sorry about it."

Gradually moving from one mode to another might make her feel more secure and
you too.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/21/02 10:11:35 AM, diamondair@... writes:

<< the book itself is a gold mine of information on how to go from
punitive parenting into a child-respecting mode, without just
becoming a doormat for your kids to walk on >>

I wonder if the cover of the book disturbed you more than the statement above
might disturb many of the parents on this list who are neither punitive nor
doormats.

The fear that ceasing punishments is the same as becoming a doormat is what
causes lots of people to justify being mean and vindictive parents. Because
they don't have another model of a healthy family (or that they have NO
models of happy families with cooperative kids who aren't being grounded or
spanked).

Being a doormat is a whole 'nother thing. It happens, but not to parents who
are really involved and concerned. It happens with women who are beat down
and told for years that their ideas aren't worth much because they're just
housewives, or whatever, and they learn not to express themselves, and
eventually just stop thinking as much as they can.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 10/21/02 7:33 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> The fear that ceasing punishments is the same as becoming a doormat is what
> causes lots of people to justify being mean and vindictive parents.

I think they justify the meanness because they fear their kids will turn out
bad. I don't think they fear they will become doormats if they give up
punishments. I think they fear their kids will run wild and taking away
punishments is tying their hands and preventing them from using the only
tool parents have available.

It's just, as you say, they don't have another model. They don't realize
there other tools available. Or they don't trust the other tools because the
tools, like unschooling, don't work in an atmosphere of control.

So I think what Robin was speaking to was that conclusion most people jump
to when they hear about no punishments.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 10/21/02 9:21 AM, luv2unskool at cmr0523@... wrote:

> My question is, what now? Do I have a heart to heart with my
> daughter, and tell her there will be no punishments from me any
> longer? She no longer needs to brush her teeth, or clean her room?

And I think that you're seeing two choices: either you make her do the right
thing or you let her do what she wants. And since what she wants may be the
wrong thing, then what.

Try being her partner instead. Maybe, in this regard, think of her as a
friend to help you see the difference between molding her and helping her.

Presumably she doesn't want cavities. But she doesn't want to brush either.
So what is it that's getting in her way of brushing? Does she object because
it's another one of those things that's always been forced? I know as a
child I remember brushing teeth taking a good half hour all by myself while
there were way more interesting things I could have been doing. Obviously it
only took 60 seconds of course ;-) but it seemed like half an hour! So I've
always brushed my teeth with my daughter. She's old enough now to that it's
pretty much an automatic thing so she doesn't have to devote much
consciousness to it, but doing it together got her past the years when she
was hyperconscious of the tediousness of it.

> Also, what about when she does slam that playstation out of
> frustration. Just sit and wait - if she breaks it, she pays for it?

Again, presumably, she doesn't want to break the Playstation so, say that to
her. Say "I'm concerned that taking out your frustration on the Playstation
may break it one day. Is there something we can think of that you might bang
or throw or do to release the frustration? Something we can keep right next
to the Playstation?" (And talk again to see how it working and whether
something might work better.) And then when she does bang the Playstation,
humor helps as someone said. Saying "The Playstation says Ouch!" and then
hand her something else to punch. Talk to her when she's not in the midst of
playing about what her feelings are before she gets to the
need-to-slam-the-Playstation feeling so she can become more aware of the
buildup and redirect it before it gets to that point.

Assume she will unthinkingly slam the Playstation until she's able to insert
a moment of thought in there. It's a retraining as well as developmentaly
issue. And you'll have to accept that she's going to do it wrong until you
and she can figure out a way that works.

> There need to be basic,
> considerate rules, for instance she can't throw things at the big
> screen tv, and can't color on the walls...

Again, what's leading up to it? Help her become more conscious of what she's
feeling and find new releases.

Why is she drawing on the walls? What about a big sheet of paper? What about
a wall she *can* color on?

There aren't rules in our house. We're just guided by what makes sense. If
your daughter is feeling controlled by the rules, it's possible she'll
choose unsensible things because she's fighting the inability to make the
choice for herself and not because she wants to do something ridiculous.

There are some communities that have rules about what colors you can paint
your house and whether you can have plastic pink flamingoes in your yard.
Being rather conservative, our house has conservative colors and no pink
flamingos. But if for some reason it turned into one of those controlled
communities, I'd have great desire for purple woodwork and plastic pink
flamingos ;-)

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/22/02 8:08:45 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< There are some communities that have rules about what colors you can paint
your house and whether you can have plastic pink flamingoes in your yard.
Being rather conservative, our house has conservative colors and no pink
flamingos. But if for some reason it turned into one of those controlled
communities, I'd have great desire for purple woodwork and plastic pink
flamingos ;-) >>

Burke Breathed lived in Albuquerque for a while while his wife/partner was in
nursing school. He had pink flamingos in his yard, but the covenants for his
neighborhood said "no," and so he had them coated with brown stucco.

I don't know what happened next. <g>

Probably they were swiped by fans.

Sandra

Betsy

**
There aren't rules in our house. We're just guided by what makes sense.**


Win and Bill Sweet, in their book _Living Joyfully with Children_,
suggest having "principles" instead of "rules". It's an interesting idea.

They also wrote _When Your Grandchildren Are Homeschooled_.

(Hope I got both titles right.)

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/22/2002 11:08:59 AM Central Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:


> Win and Bill Sweet, in their book _Living Joyfully with Children_,
> suggest having "principles" instead of "rules". It's an interesting idea

That's a *GREAT* book. One of those life-changing ones, for me.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

This is too cool! I don't know who he is. I am now living in a neightborhood with 'covinences', please!, I wish I would have known how stupid some of these things are! I guess they aren't too bad but its bad enough that I can't have a horse!!

I'm thinking I'm not going to fit in, OK, so I guess I'm not thinking it, I'm knowing it!

Kelli
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 10/22/02 8:08:45 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< There are some communities that have rules about what colors you can paint
your house and whether you can have plastic pink flamingoes in your yard.
Being rather conservative, our house has conservative colors and no pink
flamingos. But if for some reason it turned into one of those controlled
communities, I'd have great desire for purple woodwork and plastic pink
flamingos ;-) >>

Burke Breathed lived in Albuquerque for a while while his wife/partner was in
nursing school. He had pink flamingos in his yard, but the covenants for his
neighborhood said "no," and so he had them coated with brown stucco.

I don't know what happened next. <g>

Probably they were swiped by fans.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the_clevengers

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/21/02 10:11:35 AM, diamondair@e... writes:
>
> << the book itself is a gold mine of information on how to go from
> punitive parenting into a child-respecting mode, without just
> becoming a doormat for your kids to walk on >>
>
> I wonder if the cover of the book disturbed you more than the
statement above
> might disturb many of the parents on this list who are neither
punitive nor
> doormats.


Not sure where this came from. My whole point was that not being
punitive *does not* equal being a doormat. That there is a way to
parent non-punitively without becoming a doormat. I can't imagine why
that would be disturbing.


> The fear that ceasing punishments is the same as becoming a doormat
is what
> causes lots of people to justify being mean and vindictive
parents. Because
> they don't have another model of a healthy family (or that they
have NO
> models of happy families with cooperative kids who aren't being
grounded or
> spanked).

Exactly. Which is why I was recommending this excellent, child-
respecting book that has many models of healthy ways to interact with
children in cooperative ways.


> Being a doormat is a whole 'nother thing. It happens, but not to
parents who
> are really involved and concerned.

Right, but it's possible to be involved and concerned but just not
know *how* a non-punitive, positive-parenting family looks. To not
know the non-punitive tools that you might need to work with. I was
just suggesting one good source of information on what a non-punitive
way to parent might look like.

> It happens with women who are beat down
> and told for years that their ideas aren't worth much because
they're just
> housewives, or whatever, and they learn not to express themselves,
and
> eventually just stop thinking as much as they can.

And this is apropos of what? No-one on this list is doing so. The
book I recommended isn't doing so. The person posting on this list
asked for help on becoming non-punitive. This book is one good source
of information on that subject, which I feel is very child-respecting
and parent-respecting as well.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-