Re: Attitudes and Consequences
Pam Hartley
----------
they do not "need" or "want" to punish me or anyone else. If they are
unhappy, they know they can get my attention and help without extreme
measures. This took my respecting their needs and wants first, and also took
my deliberate decision to have a certain kind of family dynamic.
others; one these things just doesn't belong."
There is considerable difference between body art (which I would certainly
let them have) and illegal activity (which yes, I would make every effort to
stop should it ever become an issue. The state might punish them for illegal
activity, I personally would not. Punishment doesn't work for felons,
there's no reason to expect it to work for children).
their fan, supporter, helper, healer. I'm right here, right in step with
them, all along the way.
all have a say.
just a job and can be changed at whim. I hope they know their lives are for
joy and laughter, not drudgery and fear.
consideration for everyone else. I would have a hard time imagining two more
compassionate, gentle, thinking girl-children. I can't fathom why that
should change.
their beliefs.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Correct.
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2503
>Date: Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 7:44 PM
>
> Are you saying that you never provide consequences or "punishments"
> for inappropriate behaviors?
> Would you let your children, forThe part that is missing here is that because my children are not punished,
> instance, swear at an adult, or punch holes in your walls if
> they "needed" or "wanted" to?
they do not "need" or "want" to punish me or anyone else. If they are
unhappy, they know they can get my attention and help without extreme
measures. This took my respecting their needs and wants first, and also took
my deliberate decision to have a certain kind of family dynamic.
>What about tattoos, piercings orLike we learned in Sesame Street, "one of these things is not like the
> shoplifting?
others; one these things just doesn't belong."
There is considerable difference between body art (which I would certainly
let them have) and illegal activity (which yes, I would make every effort to
stop should it ever become an issue. The state might punish them for illegal
activity, I personally would not. Punishment doesn't work for felons,
there's no reason to expect it to work for children).
> When do you finally step in?I've never stepped out. I'm not a disinterested observer from afar. I'm
their fan, supporter, helper, healer. I'm right here, right in step with
them, all along the way.
>I am curious as to whoIt's not a dictatorship, so we leave the throne empty. It's a family, so we
> runs your household, you or the children?
all have a say.
> When they are adults, willSweet Lady of Light, I dearly hope so. I hope they will know that a job is
> they know how to deal with "rules" or "restrictions" in their job, or
> life?
just a job and can be changed at whim. I hope they know their lives are for
joy and laughter, not drudgery and fear.
> Or will they just do what they please, never consideringAt eight (almost) and five, they do what they please and show marvelous
> anyone else?
consideration for everyone else. I would have a hard time imagining two more
compassionate, gentle, thinking girl-children. I can't fathom why that
should change.
> There will certainly be consequences when he tells hisIf they don't want to they should say so, and I hope they never act against
> boss, "I don't want to".
their beliefs.
Pam
Pam Hartley
----------
It doesn't do much good to tell anybody this. Bringing in hordes of shadowy
supporters who won't speak up for themselves and join the conversation is,
in my humble opinion, a cowardly tactic.
I speak for myself. I find I respect me in the morning.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Yes, we're a fearsome bunch.
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2503
>Date: Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 7:44 PM
>
> Just a FYI - I had a few people email me OFF LIST, with actual
> SUPPORT, in agreement with reasonable consequences. They didn't want
> to post publicly, for fear of people attacking them for their views.
It doesn't do much good to tell anybody this. Bringing in hordes of shadowy
supporters who won't speak up for themselves and join the conversation is,
in my humble opinion, a cowardly tactic.
I speak for myself. I find I respect me in the morning.
Pam
Pam Hartley
----------
and have the adults not huff at her. I think she thinks she's being ordered
around without having reciprocal privileges. What happens if she says, "No,
I'm busy, sorry"? My guess is not the same thing that happens if you or her
dad says it to her.
You said something early on which I hope you'll look at a little sideways
for awhile and see if you can discern it in a new light. You don't have to
answer to me for it, but it was really telling from my point of view. You
said you thought you were most bothered by your daughter not cleaning her
room because you'd just spent $2000 on it.
That kind of attitude isn't a one-off thing, it's a world view. It's what
can make a child feel she's less-than in a family, and if the child has some
gumption it is the kind of view of her importance (or lack thereof, in this
case when pitted against money) that can make her fight back.
will of iron. I worried much more over the personality of the former, though
not so much anymore as she's shown that when push really comes to shove, she
has a sticking point. Weak-willed women are boring or victims, and I would
never want my daughters to be either.
Pam
>From: [email protected]I don't think she thinks she can just say, "I'm too tired, will you do it?"
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2503
>Date: Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 7:44 PM
>
> The violin was one example. My husband just asked her to please run
> downstairs and turn off the tv, because we were all getting settled
> down for bed. She simply didn't feel like it, so she huffed, and was
> rude. She simply didn't want to be bothered. That is often the
> reason. "Oh honey, would you put that in the trash instead of
> leaving it on the counter?" might result in stomping, or even
> yelling. "Why do I always have to... " she'll rant.
and have the adults not huff at her. I think she thinks she's being ordered
around without having reciprocal privileges. What happens if she says, "No,
I'm busy, sorry"? My guess is not the same thing that happens if you or her
dad says it to her.
You said something early on which I hope you'll look at a little sideways
for awhile and see if you can discern it in a new light. You don't have to
answer to me for it, but it was really telling from my point of view. You
said you thought you were most bothered by your daughter not cleaning her
room because you'd just spent $2000 on it.
That kind of attitude isn't a one-off thing, it's a world view. It's what
can make a child feel she's less-than in a family, and if the child has some
gumption it is the kind of view of her importance (or lack thereof, in this
case when pitted against money) that can make her fight back.
> Different kids have different personalities. Some are more "strongOf course. I have one of each -- one very agreeable child and one with a
> willed" than others. Some are very agreeable to everything, mine is
> not.
will of iron. I worried much more over the personality of the former, though
not so much anymore as she's shown that when push really comes to shove, she
has a sticking point. Weak-willed women are boring or victims, and I would
never want my daughters to be either.
Pam
[email protected]
<< You
said you thought you were most bothered by your daughter not cleaning her
room because you'd just spent $2000 on it. >>
I missed that before.
A group of women I'd known a long time were talking one day, and I said I
used to look in the JC Penney catalogs and dream about the matched furniture
sets for little girls' rooms--the matching dressers, bookshelves, corner
desk, bed with drawers... My friend Diane looked at me levelly for a couple
of seconds. She usually speaks quickest of any of us, so that pause was
significant. She said "My room was like that. They used to beat me in
there."
I decided years ago I never wanted a piece of furniture I cared so much about
that my kids couldn't be trusted to sit on it or play next to it. When we
were looking for houses, I turned a couple down because they were too
precious---one had thick, expensive carpet and all-wood trim. The other had
stencilled walls. We went with the house that had old carpet already, cheap
baseboards painted white, and a big back yard. We let the fact that we have
kids drive our house choice.
Sandra
said you thought you were most bothered by your daughter not cleaning her
room because you'd just spent $2000 on it. >>
I missed that before.
A group of women I'd known a long time were talking one day, and I said I
used to look in the JC Penney catalogs and dream about the matched furniture
sets for little girls' rooms--the matching dressers, bookshelves, corner
desk, bed with drawers... My friend Diane looked at me levelly for a couple
of seconds. She usually speaks quickest of any of us, so that pause was
significant. She said "My room was like that. They used to beat me in
there."
I decided years ago I never wanted a piece of furniture I cared so much about
that my kids couldn't be trusted to sit on it or play next to it. When we
were looking for houses, I turned a couple down because they were too
precious---one had thick, expensive carpet and all-wood trim. The other had
stencilled walls. We went with the house that had old carpet already, cheap
baseboards painted white, and a big back yard. We let the fact that we have
kids drive our house choice.
Sandra
Fetteroll
I get a sense of an unwilling partnership. That you've set up your role and
it's up to her to fill her role. And the conflict is arising because you're
giving what you think is necessary rather than what she needs.
And I'm sensing there's this knot inside of you that says you've given what
you can and you can't/won't/shouldn't have to give more. But the message
behind what people are saying isn't that it's necessary to give more but to
listen to what she's telling you by her actions so you can give her what she
needs.
It's like you're speaking two different languages without realizing it and
you're each getting frustrated that the other isn't understanding what
you're saying. And you feel like you've thrown as many words as you can and
been as clear as you can but she's just not putting the effort into
understanding you.
But as someone said even better in a different context, it isn't up to her
to understand your language. It's up to you to understand her language. (Did
someone mention The Explosive Child book?)
Have you read any at the Unschooling.com message boards? I think you could
get a lot out of what AnneO has to say about honoring children. Her older
son has Aspergers which can make children "difficult" but you'd never know
because she listens to what his actions say he's needing rather than what
society has said that kids need. And she's there with him to help him figure
out ways to handle life.
and all the things we need to do for our families. The revelation was that
we *don't* have to do all those things. We get to choose. We don't have to
make dinner every night. We don't have to scrub toilets.
Once we realize we have a choice, we realize that what we choose to do for
our families is either a gift that we know they want to receive or a gift
that we want to give them with no strings attached -- in which case perhaps
we should see it as a gift to ourselves. Often we get those two confused.
Like if we want to give them the gift of dinner, then we shouldn't knock
ourselves out for 3 hours preparing a gourmet meal. They won't appreciate it
and we'll resent that they don't appreciate it. If we want to give them
something, then we should give them homemade pizza or a picnic in the
backyard or even McDonalds. Something we know that *they* want, *not*
something that we think they should want and appreciate.
If we want to prepare a gourmet meal, we need to recognize that we're doing
it for ourselves and not for them. So their appreciation isn't necessary.
Only our assessment in how well we think we did is what's important.
So if you truly wanted to give her the gift of a room, it was a room to do
with as she wished. I think what you unconsciously gave her was something
that you wanted which was a certain image of a child's room that met your
needs.
But traditional parenting is very concerned with how well the children
appear to others and how convenient the children are to live with.
To me the primary concern should be *why* a child is behaving as she is, not
*what* she's doing. If a child is lying or stealing or hitting, there's a
reason behind it. Stopping the behavior doesn't stop what's causing it. Just
forces into a new channel.
If we see kids as inherently bad who need to be taught to be good, then
punishment makes sense, I suppose. It would be like pulling weeds. But I see
"bad" behavior as either not understanding how their behavior is affecting
someone else, or because they aren't yet able to understand, or as a
reaction to how they're being treated, or personality. (Slamming a door is a
lot better than punching someone!) Accepting that their needs are different
than ours -- because they're kids and because their personalities are
different than ours -- is often hard, but it's a pathway to being their
partner rather than their trainer.
Joyce
it's up to her to fill her role. And the conflict is arising because you're
giving what you think is necessary rather than what she needs.
And I'm sensing there's this knot inside of you that says you've given what
you can and you can't/won't/shouldn't have to give more. But the message
behind what people are saying isn't that it's necessary to give more but to
listen to what she's telling you by her actions so you can give her what she
needs.
It's like you're speaking two different languages without realizing it and
you're each getting frustrated that the other isn't understanding what
you're saying. And you feel like you've thrown as many words as you can and
been as clear as you can but she's just not putting the effort into
understanding you.
But as someone said even better in a different context, it isn't up to her
to understand your language. It's up to you to understand her language. (Did
someone mention The Explosive Child book?)
Have you read any at the Unschooling.com message boards? I think you could
get a lot out of what AnneO has to say about honoring children. Her older
son has Aspergers which can make children "difficult" but you'd never know
because she listens to what his actions say he's needing rather than what
society has said that kids need. And she's there with him to help him figure
out ways to handle life.
> YouI had this revelation when I first started discussing cleaning and cooking
> said you thought you were most bothered by your daughter not cleaning her
> room because you'd just spent $2000 on it. >>
and all the things we need to do for our families. The revelation was that
we *don't* have to do all those things. We get to choose. We don't have to
make dinner every night. We don't have to scrub toilets.
Once we realize we have a choice, we realize that what we choose to do for
our families is either a gift that we know they want to receive or a gift
that we want to give them with no strings attached -- in which case perhaps
we should see it as a gift to ourselves. Often we get those two confused.
Like if we want to give them the gift of dinner, then we shouldn't knock
ourselves out for 3 hours preparing a gourmet meal. They won't appreciate it
and we'll resent that they don't appreciate it. If we want to give them
something, then we should give them homemade pizza or a picnic in the
backyard or even McDonalds. Something we know that *they* want, *not*
something that we think they should want and appreciate.
If we want to prepare a gourmet meal, we need to recognize that we're doing
it for ourselves and not for them. So their appreciation isn't necessary.
Only our assessment in how well we think we did is what's important.
So if you truly wanted to give her the gift of a room, it was a room to do
with as she wished. I think what you unconsciously gave her was something
that you wanted which was a certain image of a child's room that met your
needs.
> Are you saying that you never provide consequences or "punishments"Traditional parenting tells us to mold their behavior.
> for inappropriate behaviors?
But traditional parenting is very concerned with how well the children
appear to others and how convenient the children are to live with.
To me the primary concern should be *why* a child is behaving as she is, not
*what* she's doing. If a child is lying or stealing or hitting, there's a
reason behind it. Stopping the behavior doesn't stop what's causing it. Just
forces into a new channel.
If we see kids as inherently bad who need to be taught to be good, then
punishment makes sense, I suppose. It would be like pulling weeds. But I see
"bad" behavior as either not understanding how their behavior is affecting
someone else, or because they aren't yet able to understand, or as a
reaction to how they're being treated, or personality. (Slamming a door is a
lot better than punching someone!) Accepting that their needs are different
than ours -- because they're kids and because their personalities are
different than ours -- is often hard, but it's a pathway to being their
partner rather than their trainer.
Joyce
MO Milligans
At 05:00 PM 10/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
What comes to my mind is..."left-overs". <g>
-------------------------------------
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>If we want to prepare a gourmet meal, we need to recognize that we're doing==
>it for ourselves and not for them.
What comes to my mind is..."left-overs". <g>
-------------------------------------
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html