luv2unskool

I'm struggling with my 9 year old daughter, and her behaviors. It is
usually bad attitude or disrespect. Yelling, door slamming, refusing
to do something she's asked. (Brushing her teeth, remember?)

I had posted earlier in the week, regarding some of the same issues.
I got lots of don't ask her to do anything, bribe her to do things or
go places, brush my teeth with her - (she's not 3, she's 9. This
game won't work with her), etc. Ugh! I am still frustrated, having
not yet found a solution that works for me/us.

I feel there should be consequences to her actions. I can't imagine
listening to her be disrespectful and rude, then take her for an ice
cream 5 minutes later. It seems as though I would be rewarding her
inappropriate behavior. "Oh sure honey, you can have a sleepover,
even though you screamed at me, and slammed your door! In fact, have
2 friends over!" :)

There are certain, reasonable behaviors I expect. I'm not talking
about making the bed, chores etc. I'm getting over the messy room,
I've asked her to close the door. I get stressed to go into a messy
room, so I just won't go in - problem solved.

I'm talking about kindness and respect. I don't care if we're
unschooling, homeschooling, or public schooling, she doesn't need to
be disrupting the family, and disrespecting or hurting anyone. (We
are unschooling and loving it, by the way!) :)

I can't pretend she isn't doing it, or ignore it. I can't bribe her
not to do it. She's a very bright 9, I can't trick her into it.

The only solution I see, is consequences. Let her know up front what
the consequences will be, maybe even have HER come up with them.
Then she knows. Then she's making the choice.

Need more advice!
Thanks in advance.

Deborah Lewis

I think people yell when they feel like they are not being heard. I
think she's frustrated and slamming doors because you're not hearing her.

Nine is still nine, she's a kid, not a grown up. She may not yet know
all the ways to tell you with words how she's feeling. She's doing her
damndest to communicate with you and YOU are the one who's not getting
it. She doesn't want to feel bad. She doesn't want you to feel bad
about her.
You have to listen to her. You have to listen to what she can't say.
She is really trying to reach you. You have to be the one with enough
maturity to decode her message.

In you're first post you referred to her as gifted and then you said she
feels bad when violin doesn't go perfectly. She might be having an
impossible time living up to everyone's expectation of a gifted daughter.

You should think about this.
Does she feel like you expect a certain standard from her?
Does she feel like she has to be perfect to get your approval?
Does she feel that if she fails she's let you down?

I don't see how such a label can be helpful to a child in any way. I
think it can be hugely oppressive. Maybe you should work on getting rid
of that whole gifted thing and see if that helps.

Children need the freedom to make mistakes without feeling like they'll
lose their parents love. If you punish her for getting angry or
frustrated, she may think you're withholding affection because you're
disappointed that your "gifted" daughter failed to do something
perfectly.

There may be some benefit to quiet communication about what upsets her.
Ask what you can do to make her feel happier. She might not know at
first, but keep talking about it when things are calm. Kids learn about
expressing emotion like they learn everything else, on their own
schedules. It takes time.

People talk to kids about respect a lot. But if a child never personally
receives respect it's hard to know how to give it. Think about how much
respect she gets as a member of your family and see if you are
demonstrating the kind of consideration you'd like her to have for you.
These things can be reciprocal.

I hope you go back and read some of the responses to your other post.
Someone who is upset and frustrated doesn't need to be punished, they
need love and understanding. She needs you to help her cope with her
strong emotions and she needs to know you love her no matter what.
Punishment accomplishes neither of those things.

Another thing here is that frustration IS the natural consequence of
continual disappointment. Anger IS the natural consequence of being
misunderstood or treated unfairly. She knows all about consequences.
You want to set her up with unnatural consequences (punishment) and you
will only make it worse, and asking her to help you treat her unfairly is
a terrible idea. Kids hurt themselves all the time over emotional
problems and I don't think you want to go there. She should NOT be made
to punish herself so YOU can claim it was her choice.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/18/02 3:22:58 PM, cmr0523@... writes:

<< I feel there should be consequences to her actions. >>

There are consequences for parental actions too, and it's likely that her
behavior is in response to the way she has been treated thusfar.

<< I can't imagine
listening to her be disrespectful and rude, then take her for an ice
cream 5 minutes later. It seems as though I would be rewarding her
inappropriate behavior. >>

Seems maybe, by the messages many of us got growing up, and by the
justifications teachers and parents used for being separate from us.

The suggestion was not about ice cream itself (and it wasn't my suggestion)
but about being with your daughter, being her partner and her defender,
instead of her judge and her antagonist.

<<The only solution I see, is consequences. Let her know up front what
the consequences will be, maybe even have HER come up with them.
Then she knows. Then she's making the choice. >>

Kids in psych studies have come up with worse "consequences" than adults in
many cases. Saying if she names her own punishment that it's her doing is
not right either. If someone has a choice between being hit with a paddle or
a belt, that's not much choice.

I'm not saying that you were planning to hit her. I'm saying that your
decision that there will be punishment is the big decision. Letting her
decide the detals doesn't make the punishment her doing.

Men who abuse their partners say "I told her what would happen if she didn't
come home on time. It's HER fault I hit her."

<<I can't pretend she isn't doing it, or ignore it. I can't bribe her
not to do it. She's a very bright 9, I can't trick her into it. >>

When I was nine my mother threw away a set of little child psychology
pamphlets. I had found them and was reading them and she said no, and hid
them. Next time she was gone I got them aain to see what was so powerfully
worth hiding. It was some Art Linkletter booklets about stages of child
development. My mom was afraid if I read those I would know more than she
did and be able to trick her and get my way. So rather than reading the
books and thinking about what that meant in our relationship and how she
could maybe use research to be a better mom, she threw the books away.

It sounds from what we've read here that you've decided she's a bad girl and
she's acting out the role you've given her. If you don't want to be closer
to her or model more loving behavior or loosen up on your expectations, then
you will cling to your problem and probably make it worse.

She's only nine. It's not too late to baby her a little and earn her trust
and love and real respect. There is something she's trying to express by
being rude. She's not happy for some reason. Making her more unhappy won't
solve your problem. It won't make you happier either.

Sandra

luv2unskool

Are you saying that you never provide consequences or "punishments"
for inappropriate behaviors? Would you let your children, for
instance, swear at an adult, or punch holes in your walls if
they "needed" or "wanted" to? What about tattoos, piercings or
shoplifting? When do you finally step in? I am curious as to who
runs your household, you or the children? When they are adults, will
they know how to deal with "rules" or "restrictions" in their job, or
life? Or will they just do what they please, never considering
anyone else? There will certainly be consequences when he tells his
boss, "I don't want to".

I mentioned in an earlier posting that she is gifted, because she
seems to have a problem with perfection. Most everything comes very
easily for her, so when something DOESN'T - she flips. She doesn't
know how to deal with it. I have had SO many talks with her,
encouraging her, explaining how well she's doing, and even the
professional musicians don't do it perfectly... etc etc to make her
understand, and to STOP being so hard on herself. When she's
practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even when it
isn't perfect!) She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that.

Just a FYI - I had a few people email me OFF LIST, with actual
SUPPORT, in agreement with reasonable consequences. They didn't want
to post publicly, for fear of people attacking them for their views.

Very interesting...

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/18/02 3:22:58 PM, cmr0523@h... writes:
>
> << I feel there should be consequences to her actions. >>
>
> There are consequences for parental actions too, and it's likely
that her
> behavior is in response to the way she has been treated thusfar.
>
> << I can't imagine
> listening to her be disrespectful and rude, then take her for an
ice
> cream 5 minutes later. It seems as though I would be rewarding her
> inappropriate behavior. >>
>
> Seems maybe, by the messages many of us got growing up, and by the
> justifications teachers and parents used for being separate from
us.
>
> The suggestion was not about ice cream itself (and it wasn't my
suggestion)
> but about being with your daughter, being her partner and her
defender,
> instead of her judge and her antagonist.
>
> <<The only solution I see, is consequences. Let her know up front
what
> the consequences will be, maybe even have HER come up with them.
> Then she knows. Then she's making the choice. >>
>
> Kids in psych studies have come up with worse "consequences" than
adults in
> many cases. Saying if she names her own punishment that it's her
doing is
> not right either. If someone has a choice between being hit with a
paddle or
> a belt, that's not much choice.
>
> I'm not saying that you were planning to hit her. I'm saying that
your
> decision that there will be punishment is the big decision.
Letting her
> decide the detals doesn't make the punishment her doing.
>
> Men who abuse their partners say "I told her what would happen if
she didn't
> come home on time. It's HER fault I hit her."
>
> <<I can't pretend she isn't doing it, or ignore it. I can't bribe
her
> not to do it. She's a very bright 9, I can't trick her into it. >>
>
> When I was nine my mother threw away a set of little child
psychology
> pamphlets. I had found them and was reading them and she said no,
and hid
> them. Next time she was gone I got them aain to see what was so
powerfully
> worth hiding. It was some Art Linkletter booklets about stages of
child
> development. My mom was afraid if I read those I would know more
than she
> did and be able to trick her and get my way. So rather than
reading the
> books and thinking about what that meant in our relationship and
how she
> could maybe use research to be a better mom, she threw the books
away.
>
> It sounds from what we've read here that you've decided she's a bad
girl and
> she's acting out the role you've given her. If you don't want to
be closer
> to her or model more loving behavior or loosen up on your
expectations, then
> you will cling to your problem and probably make it worse.
>
> She's only nine. It's not too late to baby her a little and earn
her trust
> and love and real respect. There is something she's trying to
express by
> being rude. She's not happy for some reason. Making her more
unhappy won't
> solve your problem. It won't make you happier either.
>
> Sandra

luv2unskool

I mentioned in an earlier posting that she is gifted, because she
seems to have a problem with perfection. Most everything comes very
easily for her, so when something DOESN'T - she flips. She doesn't
know how to deal with it.

I have had SO many talks with her,
encouraging her, explaining how well she's doing, and even the
professional musicians don't do it perfectly... etc etc to make her
understand, and to STOP being so hard on herself. When she's
practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even when it
isn't perfect!) We've talked about how everyone has strengths and
weaknesses, that everyone is different.

Before she started taking the violin, we didn't know if that, too,
would come easily. We talked about how if she wanted to do it, she
could. She can do anything she puts her mind to. We talked about
how she may have a "gift" for music, it might come easily, or she
might not, and she would have to work a bit harder. Either way, if
she put forth the effort, she could do it.

She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that. She knows she can
give it up at any time if she wants, she has the freedom to choose.

The violin was one example. My husband just asked her to please run
downstairs and turn off the tv, because we were all getting settled
down for bed. She simply didn't feel like it, so she huffed, and was
rude. She simply didn't want to be bothered. That is often the
reason. "Oh honey, would you put that in the trash instead of
leaving it on the counter?" might result in stomping, or even
yelling. "Why do I always have to... " she'll rant.

Different kids have different personalities. Some are more "strong
willed" than others. Some are very agreeable to everything, mine is
not.

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> I think people yell when they feel like they are not being heard.
I
> think she's frustrated and slamming doors because you're not
hearing her.
>
> Nine is still nine, she's a kid, not a grown up. She may not yet
know
> all the ways to tell you with words how she's feeling. She's doing
her
> damndest to communicate with you and YOU are the one who's not
getting
> it. She doesn't want to feel bad. She doesn't want you to feel
bad
> about her.
> You have to listen to her. You have to listen to what she can't
say.
> She is really trying to reach you. You have to be the one with
enough
> maturity to decode her message.
>
> In you're first post you referred to her as gifted and then you
said she
> feels bad when violin doesn't go perfectly. She might be having an
> impossible time living up to everyone's expectation of a gifted
daughter.
>
> You should think about this.
> Does she feel like you expect a certain standard from her?
> Does she feel like she has to be perfect to get your approval?
> Does she feel that if she fails she's let you down?
>
> I don't see how such a label can be helpful to a child in any way.
I
> think it can be hugely oppressive. Maybe you should work on
getting rid
> of that whole gifted thing and see if that helps.
>
> Children need the freedom to make mistakes without feeling like
they'll
> lose their parents love. If you punish her for getting angry or
> frustrated, she may think you're withholding affection because
you're
> disappointed that your "gifted" daughter failed to do something
> perfectly.
>
> There may be some benefit to quiet communication about what upsets
her.
> Ask what you can do to make her feel happier. She might not know at
> first, but keep talking about it when things are calm. Kids learn
about
> expressing emotion like they learn everything else, on their own
> schedules. It takes time.
>
> People talk to kids about respect a lot. But if a child never
personally
> receives respect it's hard to know how to give it. Think about how
much
> respect she gets as a member of your family and see if you are
> demonstrating the kind of consideration you'd like her to have for
you.
> These things can be reciprocal.
>
> I hope you go back and read some of the responses to your other
post.
> Someone who is upset and frustrated doesn't need to be punished,
they
> need love and understanding. She needs you to help her cope with
her
> strong emotions and she needs to know you love her no matter what.
> Punishment accomplishes neither of those things.
>
> Another thing here is that frustration IS the natural consequence of
> continual disappointment. Anger IS the natural consequence of being
> misunderstood or treated unfairly. She knows all about
consequences.
> You want to set her up with unnatural consequences (punishment) and
you
> will only make it worse, and asking her to help you treat her
unfairly is
> a terrible idea. Kids hurt themselves all the time over emotional
> problems and I don't think you want to go there. She should NOT
be made
> to punish herself so YOU can claim it was her choice.
>
> Deb L

kayb85

> I feel there should be consequences to her actions. I can't
imagine
> listening to her be disrespectful and rude, then take her for an
ice
> cream 5 minutes later. It seems as though I would be rewarding her
> inappropriate behavior. "Oh sure honey, you can have a sleepover,
> even though you screamed at me, and slammed your door! In fact,
have
> 2 friends over!" :)

My oldest is 9 years old too, so I don't have any more experience
than you do, but maybe I can offer some suggestions for what they're
worth.

Maybe if you can pinpoint *why* she is acting the way she is? I know
in our family, we had a major breakthrough in doing this. My 5 year
old was constantly beating on his 9 yo sister and messing up her
projects. I finally figured out that he was doing it because he
wanted someone to play with, and when she was busy doing her own
thing, he acted out to get attention from her. Now I know that I
need to give him a little more attention throughout the day and it
has cut down on the picking on his sister. For us, this was a HUGE
breakthrough.

Once in awhile lately my daughter has been talking to me just a
little bit cocky. I think it's hormones kicking in. Usually all I
have to do is look at her and honestly tell her that it makes me sad
when she talks to me like that.

Sheila

luv2unskool

Thanks, Sheila, the nicest post yet! :)

I THINK I have it pinpointed, in that it seems to be a perfection
issue. Since most things come very easily for her, when something
DOESN'T, she doesn't know how to deal with it. We've talked about it
on numerous occasions. She agrees that because most things come so
easily to her, she feels "stupid" when she can't do something. Logic
tells her she's not really stupid, but she's so frustrated at the
time.

I have tried so hard to encourage her, and to make her feel better
when she's feeling frustrated. Her mood can switch like a
lightswitch when she gets frustrated from something. She can go from
happy-go-lucky to hostile.

She'll be playing the violin, and I'll tell her how nice it sounds,
and she'll get frustrated anyway, because it wasn't perfect. I'll
tell her it sounded great to me, but that doesn't help. I'll ask her
what SHE thought was wrong, and she might say it was too fast or
slow, so I'll suggest she try it again, or something like that. I'M
GOING TO! She'll yell.

I want to help her when she's frustrated, but I'm not sure how. I
don't think she'll be happy until she DOES play the song perfectly,
so trying again seems the only option. I have suggested she put it
away for awhile, and try later (a fresh start), but she gets mad at
that too. She's upset with herself, about her playing, but lashes
out at anyone around. I've tried ignoring her attitude, but it's no
better.

But, her attitude can come, often, from not wanting to be bothered.
Not wanting to contribute. Not wanting to make an effort. Ho hum.

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:
>
> > I feel there should be consequences to her actions. I can't
> imagine
> > listening to her be disrespectful and rude, then take her for an
> ice
> > cream 5 minutes later. It seems as though I would be rewarding
her
> > inappropriate behavior. "Oh sure honey, you can have a
sleepover,
> > even though you screamed at me, and slammed your door! In fact,
> have
> > 2 friends over!" :)
>
> My oldest is 9 years old too, so I don't have any more experience
> than you do, but maybe I can offer some suggestions for what
they're
> worth.
>
> Maybe if you can pinpoint *why* she is acting the way she is? I
know
> in our family, we had a major breakthrough in doing this. My 5
year
> old was constantly beating on his 9 yo sister and messing up her
> projects. I finally figured out that he was doing it because he
> wanted someone to play with, and when she was busy doing her own
> thing, he acted out to get attention from her. Now I know that I
> need to give him a little more attention throughout the day and it
> has cut down on the picking on his sister. For us, this was a HUGE
> breakthrough.
>
> Once in awhile lately my daughter has been talking to me just a
> little bit cocky. I think it's hormones kicking in. Usually all I
> have to do is look at her and honestly tell her that it makes me
sad
> when she talks to me like that.
>
> Sheila

Deborah Lewis

> Are you saying that you never provide consequences or "punishments"
> for inappropriate behaviors?

Never. If my son experiences consequences to some action they are the
natural consequences.
He doesn't have inappropriate behaviors. He behaves exactly as he is
able to in any situation.

>Would you let your children, for
> instance, swear at an adult, or punch holes in your walls if
> they "needed" or "wanted" to? What about tattoos, piercings or
> shoplifting? When do you finally step in?

So here's the deal. He doesn't. He treats other people well because
he's always been treated well.
If he did swear at an adult I would think he had a good reason to. I
can't even imagine him punching anything. He doesn't even like sparing
in Karate class. He can't legally get a tattoo but he doesn't want one.
I did offer to pierce his ears with some deer mouse ear tags we got from
a biologist but he declined. He wouldn't dream of taking something that
isn't his, in fact the problem seems to be that he keeps giving his stuff
away. I don't "step in" because I'm IN all the time. I'm right here.


> I am curious as to who
> runs your household, you or the children?

We all live peacefully together. Really.

>When they are adults,
> will
> they know how to deal with "rules" or "restrictions" in their job,
> or
> life?

I suspect so. My son is ten. He follows rules at his Dojo. He follows
rules of games. He's nice to people, he's walks on sidewalks instead of
in the street. He seems to know what's what.

>Or will they just do what they please, never considering
> anyone else? There will certainly be consequences when he tells his
> boss, "I don't want to".

I hope he always has the freedom to safely do as he pleases, but I don't
worry that he won't have consideration for others. He's a very
considerate person right now. He cares about how we feel and he looks
after his friends.
If one day he tells his boss "I don't want to" there probably will be
consequences. The consequence that his boss says -do it any way-, or
-you're fired- are natural consequences. There are consequences like
not having a pay check, not being able to pay bills, etc, those are
natural. I don't picture him having to stay in his room for a week or
have his Playstation taken away...

> I mentioned in an earlier posting that she is gifted, because she
> seems to have a problem with perfection. Most everything comes very
> easily for her, so when something DOESN'T - she flips. She doesn't
> know how to deal with it. I have had SO many talks with her,
> encouraging her, explaining how well she's doing, and even the
> professional musicians don't do it perfectly... etc etc to make her
> understand, and to STOP being so hard on herself. When she's
> practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even when
> it
> isn't perfect!) She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that.

If the post didn't apply to your real situation then there are no
consequences if you disregard it.

> Just a FYI - I had a few people email me OFF LIST, with actual
> SUPPORT, in agreement with reasonable consequences. They didn't
> want
> to post publicly, for fear of people attacking them for their views.

That's their option. No one has to discuss ideas here, it's not a
requirement.
But I still don't see how made up punishment is a reasonable consequence
and I won't be offering support in favor of punishment of any sort. I
think supporting kids is much better. And if a person is going to hold
views then they might as well be able to explain them and stand up to
whatever the argument is against them, if they're worth holding. If
they're not worth holding then throw them out and get some new ones.
That's how we learn.

Deb L

Barb Eaton

on 10/18/02 9:34 PM, luv2unskool at cmr0523@... wrote:
When she's
> practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even when it
> isn't perfect!)

Do you realize by telling her she is doing well when she's not is lieing to
her?
> >
> She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that. She knows she can
> give it up at any time if she wants, she has the freedom to choose.

Does she? Wouldn't you be disappointed she quit? I'm sure she would feel
that even if you didn't say it. I always just *knew* when my parents were
disappoimted with me. Even when nothing was said or done to show it. I was
disappointed with myself and felt like I let them down.
>
> The violin was one example. My husband just asked her to please run
> downstairs and turn off the tv, because we were all getting settled
> down for bed. She simply didn't feel like it, so she huffed, and was
> rude. She simply didn't want to be bothered. That is often the
> reason. "Oh honey, would you put that in the trash instead of
> leaving it on the counter?" might result in stomping, or even
> yelling. "Why do I always have to... " she'll rant.

Isn't asking her to do it for you (turn off the TV) the same as her not
wanting to do something (throw something away) to make your life easier?
That's where the Why do *I* have to always... comes from. We ask our
children to do things for *us* all the time. They are not supposed to argue
or say no. They are not to get angry or refuse.
>
> Different kids have different personalities. Some are more "strong
> willed" than others. Some are very agreeable to everything, mine is
> not.

I have both. My more agreeable child (ds13) gets tired of being ask
sometimes. He tells me so and I try doing better myself. I try harder to not
take advantage of him. Balance. It's hard sometimes but I try to be more
mindful of this and it works wonders.

My other ds (8yo) lets me know first that he doesn't want to. This sometimes
set me off. We both get loud. That's were he has gotten this too. My ds have
not fallen far from the tree so to speak. I try to back off more and give
him *all* the info of why I'm asking. If I tell him my reasons first and not
just ask or demand he is much more agreeable. Interupting his play, TV,
activites is also a major factor too. I react the same. I really have a hard
time when anyone, including dh, interupting my reading and trying to absorb
something. I'm getting better just by knowing I have a problem with it. I've
adjusted and work on it daily. We are a work in progress and I have to
remember that.

Your daughter is only 9. She is very aware of disappointment and
expectations. From her parents and in herself. She is trying her hardest to
sort all this out. I know I have trouble soemtimes too and I'm 42. It's not
easy figuring it all out. With you being aware of your behaviour helps. You
are the only one you can change. Look within and you may be surprised at the
answers you find. I know have.

Deb your post was helpful to me to remind me to listen better and keep
working on myself. Thank you for that. I needed the reminder.

Barb E
ps. Thanks to those at the conference for the encouragement to post. I'm
feeling braver tonight. Here goes. :-)

Deborah Lewis

> I mentioned in an earlier posting that she is gifted, because she
> seems to have a problem with perfection. Most everything comes very
> easily for her, so when something DOESN'T - she flips. She doesn't
> know how to deal with it.

I think learning about ourselves, our personal beings, can be as
complicated a task as learning to read or play violin. I think it just
may take some kids longer to understand their own emotions.

> I have had SO many talks with her,
> encouraging her, explaining how well she's doing, and even the
> professional musicians don't do it perfectly... etc etc to make her
> understand, and to STOP being so hard on herself. When she's
> practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even when
> it
> isn't perfect!) We've talked about how everyone has strengths and
> weaknesses, that everyone is different.

I am not a perfectionist and I can't offer any suggestions on this
personality type, but I think some of the earlier posts addressed this
and maybe those people will have more thoughts for you.

> Before she started taking the violin, we didn't know if that, too,
> would come easily. We talked about how if she wanted to do it, she
> could. She can do anything she puts her mind to. We talked about
> how she may have a "gift" for music, it might come easily, or she
> might not, and she would have to work a bit harder. Either way, if
> she put forth the effort, she could do it.

I think it's just plain hard to struggle with something. Adults have
difficulty with frustration, I don't think we can fairly ask children to
know all the coping skills.

> She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that. She knows she can
> give it up at any time if she wants, she has the freedom to choose.
> The violin was one example. My husband just asked her to please run
> downstairs and turn off the tv, because we were all getting settled
> down for bed. She simply didn't feel like it, so she huffed, and was
> rude. She simply didn't want to be bothered. That is often the
> reason. "Oh honey, would you put that in the trash instead of
> leaving it on the counter?" might result in stomping, or even
> yelling. "Why do I always have to... " she'll rant.

Has she been asked to do more around the house since her brother came?
Could she be feeling like the three year old is being, well, babied,
while she has to do more to help you? Sandra talked about taking the
time to baby her some, maybe she needs that. My niece needed more time
being the baby when her little sister came.
"Why do I always have to... " sounds like she really feels she's not
being treated fairly. If she feels that way, could you talk about why?
Do you ask her to do more than she's ready to maybe, or are you asking
when she's busy with something else.? Can you give her the option to do
it when she's finished?
A policy that has worked around here is that when I want something done,
when *I* want it, I do it. Everyone sort of operates that way, and
when one of us does need help, it doesn't feel like a chore to help
because we haven't be hounded about doing stuff.

> Different kids have different personalities. Some are more "strong
> willed" than others. Some are very agreeable to everything, mine is
> not.

Maybe some need more time to learn about themselves.

Deb L

kayb85

> I THINK I have it pinpointed, in that it seems to be a perfection
> issue. Since most things come very easily for her, when something
> DOESN'T, she doesn't know how to deal with it. We've talked about
it
> on numerous occasions. She agrees that because most things come so
> easily to her, she feels "stupid" when she can't do something.
Logic
> tells her she's not really stupid, but she's so frustrated at the
> time.

Then I think the most effective way to deal with it is to deal with
the frustration rather than punishing. I'm sure we all know families
with kids who have lousy relationships with their parents and they're
always "grounded". Their parents are always yelling at them. They
get punished a LOT. The goal should be to get to the heart of the
issue, not to keep punishing her.

> She'll be playing the violin, and I'll tell her how nice it sounds,
> and she'll get frustrated anyway, because it wasn't perfect. I'll
> tell her it sounded great to me, but that doesn't help. I'll ask
her
> what SHE thought was wrong, and she might say it was too fast or
> slow, so I'll suggest she try it again, or something like that.
I'M
> GOING TO! She'll yell.

What if you stopped commenting? What if, when you see her getting
out the violin, you casually go do some project in another part of
the house and let her to work out her violin frustrations herself?
If she comes looking for you and asking for help, then give it, but
maybe she just needs to work this out for herself?

> But, her attitude can come, often, from not wanting to be
bothered.
> Not wanting to contribute. Not wanting to make an effort. Ho
hum.

I've found that when it's something that directly affects my
daughter, she's more than willing to help. If she's having friends
over, she'll clean up so they have a clutter free area to play. If
she wants to make a special meal and the measuring cup she wants is
in the sink, she'll wash it.

I used to be guilty of relying on her, as the oldest child, to run
and do things for me all the time. She was my little errand girl.
Please run and get me a diaper for the baby. Please go put this in
the mailbox for me. Please go get your brother a shirt. Then I sat
back (after reading a lot of posts on this list!) and thought about
how I'd feel in her situation.

So now, if I'm running late and one of the boys aren't dressed, I
might say, "Honey, I'm really running late and he's not even
dressed. Do you have time to get me a shirt for him?" That's the
same way I'd ask my husband for help. Very rarely does she turn me
down, but once in awhile she'll say, "Can you wait until I finish
__________" or "I'm kind of in the middle of a game" or "Mommy, I'm
SOOOO tired!" I'm learning to accept it. And I'm trying not to ask
her to run and get me stuff unless I am really stuck or really
overwhelmed.

I'm also learning to often do things that she asks me to do. Like
today she has friends over and she was so excited and having such a
good time. She wanted some food warmed up and asked if I would do it
for her and bring it to her. There was a time when I would have
said, "You're capable of getting that yourself", but then I thought
of all the times I was exhausted at the end of the day and asked her
to go get me something because I couldn't bare the thought of walking
down the steps one more time. I realized how important having these
friends over is to her and then happily got her the food and brought
it to her.

Sheila

Barb Eaton

Do you do that? I know I do more than I like. Put myself down when
dinner isn't right. Something you are doing doesn't turn out to be what you
expected? To children we are perfect. We don't make mistakes. We don't need
to practice to get better. We just are.
Acknowledging that she is frustrated and letting it go at that may help.
Have you read Faber and Mazlishs' book How to Talk so You Kids will listen,
Listen so your kids will talk? (That title's not quite right) I was an eye
opener for me. Just acknowledging and not adding suggestions helped too.
Sometimes we just want to be heard. Not necessarily asking for an answer.
Also I thought that maybe she could practice alone to go over it over
and over privately. I've heard of kids that don't want to show how they can
read until they have it all figured out.
I really hope that this can be a help to you. I'm just throwing out
ideas and my experiences. :-)
I'm a bit confused by your last paragraph. Could you explain?


Barb E
Wish I had spell check. I don't catch them all.

on 10/18/02 10:06 PM, luv2unskool at cmr0523@... wrote:

>
> But, her attitude can come, often, from not wanting to be bothered.
> Not wanting to contribute. Not wanting to make an effort. Ho hum.
>

Tia Leschke

> Are you saying that you never provide consequences or "punishments"
> for inappropriate behaviors?

I have in the past. I'm trying to leave the past behind. <g> Using
punishment just set us up as adversaries. I'm still wearing the results.

Would you let your children, for
> instance, swear at an adult, or punch holes in your walls if
> they "needed" or "wanted" to?

My son has actually told *me* I shouldn't swear so much. If he did swear at
an adult, I suspect it would be because the adult was acting like an ass.
He's generally polite and respectful with adults. I've never been faced
with wall punching, but I guess I'd offer something to punch that wouldn't
hurt him, like a pillow. I think maybe he'd catch the attempt at humour and
chill.

What about tattoos, piercings or
> shoplifting?

My step-daughter was telling my son the other day that he should get a
tattoo. (Thanks, Emily!) He didn't say anything. I just said that before
he ever gets a tattoo, he should consider how it's going to look when his
skin is old and wrinkled. That said, my grown daughter has a couple of
really nice tattoos. Piercings? I have pierced ears. Why should I be
telling him whether he can or can't. They grow over if he decides he
doesn't like them. Oh, I have said that he'll be responsible for his own
dental work if he gets his tongue pierced, because I've heard of so many
people who have ended up with chipped teeth or broken fillings because of
them. So far (at 15) he isn't interested.

If he ever shoplifts, I hope he gets caught the first time and has to
experience society's consequences. I shoplifted candy bars when I was ten
and never got caught. I felt so guilty that I stopped for a number of years
but got into it again as a teen. I'm glad I got caught fairly early on and
was scared into never doing it again.

>
> I mentioned in an earlier posting that she is gifted, because she
> seems to have a problem with perfection. Most everything comes very
> easily for her, so when something DOESN'T - she flips. She doesn't
> know how to deal with it. I have had SO many talks with her,
> encouraging her, explaining how well she's doing, and even the
> professional musicians don't do it perfectly... etc etc to make her
> understand, and to STOP being so hard on herself. When she's
> practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even when it
> isn't perfect!) She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that.

Do you have these talks with her when she's in the middle of her
frustration, or when she's calm and not frustrated about anything? If she
isn't calm, she isn't going to hear you or be able to open up.

Most kids don't want to hear how well they're doing at something from their
parents, especially when they're perfectly aware that it isn't as good as
they want it to be. Maybe you could focus more on the improvement you
notice in her playing. Could you tape her playing regularly, so she can
listen several months later? How do you phrase your comments about her
playing? Do you just tell her she's doing well, or do you find specific
things about her playing that she really *does* do well and comment on
those? For instance, if she's had trouble with the rhythm in a particular
piece, you could notice the times she gets the rhythm right. What does her
music teacher have to say about it?
>
> Just a FYI - I had a few people email me OFF LIST, with actual
> SUPPORT, in agreement with reasonable consequences. They didn't want
> to post publicly, for fear of people attacking them for their views.
>
> Very interesting...

If people aren't happy with this list, then maybe they should find a list
they're happy with. It works for me, and a lot of other people.
Tia

Tia Leschke

>
> She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that. She knows she can
> give it up at any time if she wants, she has the freedom to choose.

Maybe she doesn't believe you? A friend on another homeschooling list had
that problem with her daughter. When the girl seemed unhappy and frustrated
with piano after a year or two, they made it clear that it was her choice to
continue or not. They mentioned off and on over several years that she
didn't have to play, that they wouldn't be disappointed. She told them
years later that she didn't believe them, that she "knew" they wanted her to
continue.
>
> The violin was one example. My husband just asked her to please run
> downstairs and turn off the tv, because we were all getting settled
> down for bed. She simply didn't feel like it, so she huffed, and was
> rude. She simply didn't want to be bothered.

Was she the one who left it on? If not, why should she do it when she
wasn't the person who left it on or the person who wanted it off? If she
was the one who left it on, was she in the middle of something? Would it
have been ok for her to do it when she was finished, and does she know that
she has that option?

That is often the
> reason. "Oh honey, would you put that in the trash instead of
> leaving it on the counter?" might result in stomping, or even
> yelling. "Why do I always have to... " she'll rant.

I wonder if humour would help here. You could do something like describe
how that counter is going to look if everyone just leaves their trash on it.
You could have the pile heaped up all the way to the ceiling. My point is
that it's up to you rather than her to change the tone of your interactions.
She's too young and inexperienced to be able to figure out how to change it.

From your various posts, I get the feeling that she doesn't *yet* have much
"emotional intelligence". She doesn't know how to label, describe, and deal
with her strong emotions. Something my daughter has done with her kids is
to constantly give them words for talking about their feelings. It isn't
always easy, but she really looks hard for the feelings that might be behind
the behavior and then labels them. For instance, when I was visiting them
today, my two year old grandson was getting into a lot of bad behavior,
hitting and kicking, knocking stuff over, just being generally obnoxious. I
was reading to his older sister. Heather said to him, "Kaelin, I wonder if
you're feeling left out. I wonder if you need someone to read to you or
play with you." He looked up, nodded his head, and went over to her for a
snuggle. Problem solved for now. Obviously it's going look different with
a nine year old, but you might find that it helps to spend a lot of time
talking about feelings when they aren't running really high.
Tia

Tia Leschke

> She'll be playing the violin, and I'll tell her how nice it sounds,
> and she'll get frustrated anyway, because it wasn't perfect. I'll
> tell her it sounded great to me, but that doesn't help. I'll ask her
> what SHE thought was wrong, and she might say it was too fast or
> slow, so I'll suggest she try it again, or something like that. I'M
> GOING TO! She'll yell.

Maybe instead of telling her how good it sounds to you, you could ask her
how she felt about it, what she wants to improve the next time. Maybe you
could talk to her about just working on one aspect of her playing at a time.
Maybe today she could just work on the rhythm, or just the phrasing. Maybe
she could spend one (short) practice period working on that bit where her
fingers get all tangled up. Does her teacher give her advice about
practicing? My first horn teacher didn't, and I never really knew *how* to
practice. My next teacher was very specific about practice techniques. For
instance, for that bit where the fingers get all tangled up, take it slowly
enough to play it perfectly, just one short section. Make sure you start
slightly before the hard part and go through to a little bit past it,
otherwise you get tripped up getting into and out of the passage. Then
speed it up a little at a time. Does she have a metronome? I often work
with one, and just keep notching the speed up one click at a time.
>
> I want to help her when she's frustrated, but I'm not sure how. I
> don't think she'll be happy until she DOES play the song perfectly,
> so trying again seems the only option. I have suggested she put it
> away for awhile, and try later (a fresh start), but she gets mad at
> that too. She's upset with herself, about her playing, but lashes
> out at anyone around. I've tried ignoring her attitude, but it's no
> better.

She can't hear you when she's upset. Can you have these talks at some other
time? Maybe when you're doing something else together, you could bring up a
story about how you sometimes get really frustrated when you're sewing or
something like that. Talk about how you'll keep going after one or two
mistakes, but if you keep making mistake after mistake, you realize that
it's time to take a break or quit for the day.
>
> But, her attitude can come, often, from not wanting to be bothered.
> Not wanting to contribute. Not wanting to make an effort. Ho hum.

Does she see you and your husband deciding to do something and then keeping
at it, making an effort, when it gets hard? Are you sure she's aware that
that's what you're doing? Do you ever talk about how hard some things are
for you, especially things that maybe look to her like they must be easy?
Has she had a chance to experience the satisfaction of succeeding at
something that took more effort than things usually do for her? Maybe you
could look for opportunities for her to experience something like that.

You see, not using punishments can look like the parents aren't doing
anything, but in many ways it's harder. Much more effective in the long
run, but harder in the meantime.
Tia

Dalene and Andy

Hey, I know you have received lots of ideas and I'm not an unschooling expert or even have a nine year old, but I would like to share some thoughts of you.

First of all I honestly don't think punishment is going to solve your problems. She will end up feeling more resentful and more angry. She sees her behaviour from an entirely different perspective, and I'm quite sure from where she is looking, she does not need punishment. I've never came across a child that feel punishment was fair and they deserved it. I did not endure many punishments as a child, but I do remember once, funny enough because my father thought I was disrespectful to my mother, and even though I probably was at the time, I still today feel he was wrong to punish me.

She sounds angry, upset, and frustrated to me, and I think she might need some space. Space to be on her own, space to get upset without someone trying to make her feel better, space to be frustrated and work it through.

We have to remember that our children do not act in isolation. They act and react to us. We live within a family system, where each part affects the next part. Her behaviour is a reaction to what she perceives from you, and you reacting to it, keeps it alive and going. I can see that with my children - whenever I'm having a bad day, they react to me in a similar pattern.

I don't have a nine year old, but I do have a nine year old niece, and I think this might not be the easiest age for them. Nine year olds are moving into a new development phase and they are enduring all kind of changes, that are bound to leave them frustrated and confused. I also believe some girls might experience hormonal increases and everyone know how difficult those hormones can make life.

Here are two articles that you might find helpful

http://www.nncc.org/Child.Dev/ages.stages.9y.11y.html

http://www.nncc.org/Guidance/cc41_mad.scream.html

Good luck

Dalene


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

luv2unskool

When she's
> practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even when
it
> isn't perfect!)

Do you realize by telling her she is doing well when she's not is
lieing to
her?

---------
---------
Barb:

No, not lying. I think it sounds wonderful, and I tell her so. I
don't just praise her when it is 100% perfect, thus pushing the
perfection issue. To me, it DOES sound beautiful.


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Barb Eaton <homemama@i...> wrote:
> on 10/18/02 9:34 PM, luv2unskool at cmr0523@h... wrote:
> When she's
> > practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even
when it
> > isn't perfect!)
>
> Do you realize by telling her she is doing well when she's not is
lieing to
> her?
> > >
> > She is loved unconditionally, and she knows that. She knows she
can
> > give it up at any time if she wants, she has the freedom to
choose.
>
> Does she? Wouldn't you be disappointed she quit? I'm sure she would
feel
> that even if you didn't say it. I always just *knew* when my
parents were
> disappoimted with me. Even when nothing was said or done to show
it. I was
> disappointed with myself and felt like I let them down.
> >
> > The violin was one example. My husband just asked her to please
run
> > downstairs and turn off the tv, because we were all getting
settled
> > down for bed. She simply didn't feel like it, so she huffed, and
was
> > rude. She simply didn't want to be bothered. That is often the
> > reason. "Oh honey, would you put that in the trash instead of
> > leaving it on the counter?" might result in stomping, or even
> > yelling. "Why do I always have to... " she'll rant.
>
> Isn't asking her to do it for you (turn off the TV) the same as her
not
> wanting to do something (throw something away) to make your life
easier?
> That's where the Why do *I* have to always... comes from. We ask our
> children to do things for *us* all the time. They are not supposed
to argue
> or say no. They are not to get angry or refuse.
> >
> > Different kids have different personalities. Some are
more "strong
> > willed" than others. Some are very agreeable to everything, mine
is
> > not.
>
> I have both. My more agreeable child (ds13) gets tired of being ask
> sometimes. He tells me so and I try doing better myself. I try
harder to not
> take advantage of him. Balance. It's hard sometimes but I try to be
more
> mindful of this and it works wonders.
>
> My other ds (8yo) lets me know first that he doesn't want to. This
sometimes
> set me off. We both get loud. That's were he has gotten this too.
My ds have
> not fallen far from the tree so to speak. I try to back off more
and give
> him *all* the info of why I'm asking. If I tell him my reasons
first and not
> just ask or demand he is much more agreeable. Interupting his play,
TV,
> activites is also a major factor too. I react the same. I really
have a hard
> time when anyone, including dh, interupting my reading and trying
to absorb
> something. I'm getting better just by knowing I have a problem with
it. I've
> adjusted and work on it daily. We are a work in progress and I have
to
> remember that.
>
> Your daughter is only 9. She is very aware of disappointment and
> expectations. From her parents and in herself. She is trying her
hardest to
> sort all this out. I know I have trouble soemtimes too and I'm 42.
It's not
> easy figuring it all out. With you being aware of your behaviour
helps. You
> are the only one you can change. Look within and you may be
surprised at the
> answers you find. I know have.
>
> Deb your post was helpful to me to remind me to listen better and
keep
> working on myself. Thank you for that. I needed the reminder.
>
> Barb E
> ps. Thanks to those at the conference for the encouragement to
post. I'm
> feeling braver tonight. Here goes. :-)

luv2unskool

Thank you, Sheila for the kind, helpful post. I am absorbing
it... :)

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:
>
>
> > I THINK I have it pinpointed, in that it seems to be a perfection
> > issue. Since most things come very easily for her, when
something
> > DOESN'T, she doesn't know how to deal with it. We've talked
about
> it
> > on numerous occasions. She agrees that because most things come
so
> > easily to her, she feels "stupid" when she can't do something.
> Logic
> > tells her she's not really stupid, but she's so frustrated at the
> > time.
>
> Then I think the most effective way to deal with it is to deal with
> the frustration rather than punishing. I'm sure we all know
families
> with kids who have lousy relationships with their parents and
they're
> always "grounded". Their parents are always yelling at them. They
> get punished a LOT. The goal should be to get to the heart of the
> issue, not to keep punishing her.
>
> > She'll be playing the violin, and I'll tell her how nice it
sounds,
> > and she'll get frustrated anyway, because it wasn't perfect.
I'll
> > tell her it sounded great to me, but that doesn't help. I'll ask
> her
> > what SHE thought was wrong, and she might say it was too fast or
> > slow, so I'll suggest she try it again, or something like that.
> I'M
> > GOING TO! She'll yell.
>
> What if you stopped commenting? What if, when you see her getting
> out the violin, you casually go do some project in another part of
> the house and let her to work out her violin frustrations herself?
> If she comes looking for you and asking for help, then give it, but
> maybe she just needs to work this out for herself?
>
> > But, her attitude can come, often, from not wanting to be
> bothered.
> > Not wanting to contribute. Not wanting to make an effort. Ho
> hum.
>
> I've found that when it's something that directly affects my
> daughter, she's more than willing to help. If she's having friends
> over, she'll clean up so they have a clutter free area to play. If
> she wants to make a special meal and the measuring cup she wants is
> in the sink, she'll wash it.
>
> I used to be guilty of relying on her, as the oldest child, to run
> and do things for me all the time. She was my little errand girl.
> Please run and get me a diaper for the baby. Please go put this in
> the mailbox for me. Please go get your brother a shirt. Then I
sat
> back (after reading a lot of posts on this list!) and thought about
> how I'd feel in her situation.
>
> So now, if I'm running late and one of the boys aren't dressed, I
> might say, "Honey, I'm really running late and he's not even
> dressed. Do you have time to get me a shirt for him?" That's the
> same way I'd ask my husband for help. Very rarely does she turn me
> down, but once in awhile she'll say, "Can you wait until I finish
> __________" or "I'm kind of in the middle of a game" or "Mommy, I'm
> SOOOO tired!" I'm learning to accept it. And I'm trying not to
ask
> her to run and get me stuff unless I am really stuck or really
> overwhelmed.
>
> I'm also learning to often do things that she asks me to do. Like
> today she has friends over and she was so excited and having such a
> good time. She wanted some food warmed up and asked if I would do
it
> for her and bring it to her. There was a time when I would have
> said, "You're capable of getting that yourself", but then I thought
> of all the times I was exhausted at the end of the day and asked
her
> to go get me something because I couldn't bare the thought of
walking
> down the steps one more time. I realized how important having
these
> friends over is to her and then happily got her the food and
brought
> it to her.
>
> Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/18/02 11:16:43 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< > She'll be playing the violin, and I'll tell her how nice it sounds,
> and she'll get frustrated anyway, because it wasn't perfect. I'll
> tell her it sounded great to me, but that doesn't help. I'll ask her
> what SHE thought was wrong, and she might say it was too fast or
> slow, so I'll suggest she try it again, or something like that. I'M
> GOING TO! She'll yell.
>>

The things which could have been removed from the above scenario was
1) telling her unbidden "how nice it sounds"
2) assuring her it sounds great
3) asking her what she thought was wrong
4) suggesting she try it again, or ANYthing like that

I'm a perfectionist. Kirby is too. Marty and Holly have tendencies, but can
also let things slide and still be happy.

When I'm frustrated with my own progress/performance/whatever, it doesn't
help to have someone tell me my perceptions are wrong, or that it's "good
enough" or that THEY like it.

If I know something is substandard and someone argues with me that it isn't,
they're distracting me AND convincing me that they don't know as much about
whatever-it-is as I do.


When I'm out of the cloud of frustration, and calm, THEN I can hear other
opinions but when I have the glue on my hands, or the instrument in my hands,
or the calligraphy pen, that's not the time for someone else to "help" me
with false praise.

(Just taking the child's side out of principle, and because it reminds me
lots of the way I was as a kid.)

Sandra

luv2unskool

Thank you, Sandra for a clear perspective.

I had assumed that she was "crying for help" by slamming her bow, or
huffing loudly for me to hear. I felt to ignore her, would be cold,
not giving her what she needed from me. Know what I mean? It seems
she wants me to help her, just then, by her actions.

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/18/02 11:16:43 PM, leschke@i... writes:
>
> << > She'll be playing the violin, and I'll tell her how nice it
sounds,
> > and she'll get frustrated anyway, because it wasn't perfect. I'll
> > tell her it sounded great to me, but that doesn't help. I'll ask
her
> > what SHE thought was wrong, and she might say it was too fast or
> > slow, so I'll suggest she try it again, or something like that.
I'M
> > GOING TO! She'll yell.
> >>
>
> The things which could have been removed from the above scenario
was
> 1) telling her unbidden "how nice it sounds"
> 2) assuring her it sounds great
> 3) asking her what she thought was wrong
> 4) suggesting she try it again, or ANYthing like that
>
> I'm a perfectionist. Kirby is too. Marty and Holly have
tendencies, but can
> also let things slide and still be happy.
>
> When I'm frustrated with my own progress/performance/whatever, it
doesn't
> help to have someone tell me my perceptions are wrong, or that
it's "good
> enough" or that THEY like it.
>
> If I know something is substandard and someone argues with me that
it isn't,
> they're distracting me AND convincing me that they don't know as
much about
> whatever-it-is as I do.
>
>
> When I'm out of the cloud of frustration, and calm, THEN I can hear
other
> opinions but when I have the glue on my hands, or the instrument in
my hands,
> or the calligraphy pen, that's not the time for someone else
to "help" me
> with false praise.
>
> (Just taking the child's side out of principle, and because it
reminds me
> lots of the way I was as a kid.)
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/18/02 7:21:27 PM, cmr0523@... writes:

<< Are you saying that you never provide consequences or "punishments"
for inappropriate behaviors? Would you let your children, for
instance, swear at an adult, or punch holes in your walls if
they "needed" or "wanted" to? >>

I'm sure others have responded, and I KNOW we as a group have been attacked
in this same sarcastic way periodically over the years.

My children have never sworn at an adult. When Kirby was thirteen and found
out his friend Zandra was dead and he had already missed the funeral, he
kicked a hole in the wall. I didn't "let him." She was not only a customer
and gamer at the store were he worked, but her sons were his age, and the
whole family was great. Then the boys had to go and live with other
relatives. People just thought he knew. She was already buried. Cancer.

I doubt he'll ever punch a hole in a wall again.

Now where in there would punishment have been appropriate or helpful?

<<What about tattoos, piercings or
shoplifting? When do you finally step in? >>

This is worded in so antagonistic a way it's hard to see you WAY way over on
the far horizon.

Much of tattoo/piercing/shoplifting in children is out of neediness for
respect and attention, and out of having power. Since my children are not
emotionally needy, not trying to impress classmates or bullies, and they have
ways to get stuff when they need it, they're not doing those things, They
have calm, strong identities.

Their friend Eric goes to school and he's the only pierced-faced on in their
group.

<< I am curious as to who
runs your household, you or the children? >>

No, you're not curious. You're insulting.
You're assuming children "run our households."

What runs our household is a set of considerations: Keeping a roof over our
children's heads, providing them a safe and interesting life as far as we
can, being loving and compassionate within our means, etc. When the people
in the house have mutual goals and when they're helping each other accomplish
smaller personal goals, it doesn't look much like the traditional father as
principal, mother as teacher, children as sinful grubs scenario that many
structured homeschooling families prefer.

Since it's a different paradigm, questions about the OLD paradigm don't
translate across very well.

<< When they are adults, will they know how to deal with "rules" or
"restrictions" in their job, or
life? >>

I know many grown unschoolers now. They just keep coming! My oldest is
sixteen and has had the same job for two years. He came in at 3:00 a.m. last
night, came to check on me, and went to sleep. He has to be at work at 9:00.
I asked my husband to check at 8:15 to make sure he was awake. At 8:00,
Keith came down and said Kirby was up already.

Kirby has always loved rules. Rules of games, procedures for remembering
which kid's turn it was to sit in the front, or to go with dad alone to the
store, when they were younger and we had some little turn-taking things. He
is a really good teacher of the games at their store. Once a week he teaches
the beginning kids' class at the dojo where he's gone since he was nine. He
knows, respects, and passes on the rules for behavior in the dojo, the forms
of the exercises, etc.

Marty is a really good host, when other kids are over. He's thoughtful and
aware. I remind him sometimes, checklist style, if he has overnighters to
make sure they know where bathrooms and breakfast foods are in case they're
up first, and to make sure there are enough sheets and pillows out and
available for when they start dropping here and there on futons and couches.

Holly is a rules fiend. She wants rules followed to the letter. She's just
that way. She likes her little ponies lined up in some sensible (to her)
fashion, and rearranges them periodically by how their manes are combed, or
the order she got them in, or those her cousin Gina has, or whatever.

There are lots of natural restrictions on life. Making them up would be
counter-productive to their living NOW in the real world. School claims to
prepare people for the real world, My kids didn't need that preparation,
having never "left" the real world to go to school.

<<Or will they just do what they please, never considering anyone else?>>

They never have done that before, so I can't imagine why they would start
when they were grown. They're very considerate. Because they have been
shown much consideration. Because they live surrounded by consideration,
they think that is just how things should be between people.

If they lived surrounded by shame and false "consequences" they would learn
to think that's how life should be.


<<There will certainly be consequences when he tells his boss, "I don't want
to".>>

It depends what the thing is and how he says it.

Kirby goes to staff meetings and almost always brings up something the boss,
owner and manager had all overlooked in planning the meeting, or his
brainstorming proposals are taken and made into policy, or a Magic tournament
is rearranged following his reminders about logistics and time constraints.

Some jobs have yucky things a kid just might not be willing to do. They can
make adult decisions about whether to negotiate, buck up, or just change
jobs. They can make better adult decisions if they've been making decisions
all along.

<<I mentioned in an earlier posting that she is gifted, because she
seems to have a problem with perfection. Most everything comes very
easily for her, so when something DOESN'T - she flips. >>

Perfectionism isn't much of a gift.
Being called gifted is no gift at all.

<< When she's practicing, I continually tell her how well she's doing (even
when it
isn't perfect!) She is loved unconditionally>> <<I have had SO many talks
with her,
encouraging her, explaining how well she's doing>>

Those talks don't seem to be helping. Maybe ease off them for a while and
try a new direction.

<<Just a FYI - I had a few people email me OFF LIST, with actual
SUPPORT, in agreement with reasonable consequences. They didn't want
to post publicly, for fear of people attacking them for their views.

<<Very interesting...>>

I would not live my life in a way I couldn't defend publically. If my
reasons weren't sound and workable, I would do something else.

We could find you some lists to be on where EVERYONE would agree with you.
That's not necessarily support.

What I'm offering is actual support in finding a better way to live with your
daughter. If your way was working you wouldn't be bringing these questions
here.

Pam's argument that "reasonable consequences" is a euphemism for "punishment"
is exactly true.

Sandra

MO Milligans

At 12:06 AM 10/19/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Just acknowledging and not adding suggestions helped too.
>Sometimes we just want to be heard. Not necessarily asking for an answer.
==
I have slowly learned this with both my daughter (9, if that matters) and
wife.<g> During the heat of frustration, sometimes (most times?) the
*worst* thing I could do was offer suggestions. Once I learned to just let
them vent and calm down, without me adding comments, things started being
less stressful for all involved. Then after all the venting was over, I
would share similar situations of *my* frustration getting the better of
me, and that made her (my DD) feel better knowing it's "okay" to get
frustrated sometimes.
-------------------------------------
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/18/02 8:09:15 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< I don't "step in" because I'm IN all the time. I'm right here.
>>

Deb L AGAIN said something profoundly simple and true:

The school model has parents and children separated.
The cultural model which sets children apart as lesser beings separates them
too.

Unschooling is so different the old phrases just don't work.
I can't "step in" where I already am.

La Leche League and attachment parenting both have things very easy to
experiment with for families who began early on to live mindfully with their
children. One is the idea that if a child weans him or herself, he will
have quit exactly when he needed to, but if he's weaned against his will, he
will have remaining needs. And if a mother lets a child be with her, right
in her lap, riding on her back, sleeping with her, he will bravely go away
more easily than one who is always being sent away and being made to be alone
to "encourage independence." It doesn't encourage independence, it creates a
gap between parent and child. It keeps a child needy.

Children who know their moms will be loving when they come back are braver
about venturing out because it is their choice to go and they will be
welcomed back.

When a little child is exploring a park, it's better for the mom to follow
him around and stay close enough that he can come to her or she can help him
if he falls or gets stuck. Too many moms I see want to sit and be
comfortable, and so they limit the child's movements for their own benefit.
But they *say* it's for the child's safety.

A loving attitude toward babies and toddlers makes it easier for the mom to
continue to be loving.

That's what I learned from attachment parenting, and I tried it with all
three of my kids and it worked well. I still know lots of the teens Kirby's
age we met when I first went, and they, too, are calmly confident.

Sandra

Kimber

<<<Once in awhile lately my daughter has been talking to me just a
little bit cocky. I think it's hormones kicking in. Usually all I
have to do is look at her and honestly tell her that it makes me sad
when she talks to me like that.

Sheila>>>


My son is 9 1/2 and we have had trouble with 'ugly' comments from him when he is angry/upset. I usually remind him that I don't speak to him that way and I would appreciate it if he didn't speak to me like that. It is sometimes helpful to remind him to change his tone and wording. Especially if he is just angry about a toy/project/game and not frustrated with me. Now, this doesn't always work but just a suggestion for you. :)

My husband and I have tried this between ourselves actually. We have been together since we were in high school so our relationship has grown along with us. When he would speak to me in an ugly way, when I knew that I wasn't the one he was actually angry with, I would gently ask him if he wanted to 'rephrase that comment?' and he did the same to me when I was a little ...... how shall I say.....bitchy. It helped us a lot to give each other another chance to say something without causing anger and/or hurt feelings. Of course, we still can have a great argument/disagreement with each other. Rephrasing for us is just a 'helper' when we are having a bad day, grumpy, etc.... and not actually irritated with each other.

Kimber





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Betsy

**
When I'm out of the cloud of frustration, and calm, THEN I can hear
other
opinions but when I have the glue on my hands, or the instrument in my
hands, or the calligraphy pen, that's not the time for someone else to
"help" me with false praise.**

It doesn't even have to be "false" praise to be annoying. It can just
be casual praise or missing-the-point praise.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/19/02 8:06:39 AM, cmr0523@... writes:

<< I had assumed that she was "crying for help" by slamming her bow, or
huffing loudly for me to hear. I felt to ignore her, would be cold,
not giving her what she needed from me. Know what I mean? It seems
she wants me to help her, just then, by her actions. >>

I've been whimpering and occasionally yelping the past few days, because of
my broken leg. It's not attention getting, it's involuntary response to real
pain. Sometimes someone will come and ask me if I need help. I don't
usually need help. Sympathy's nice. But I wouldn't want anyone else to take
over and tell me when to sit, when to put my foot up higher or whatever. I'm
going okay. Its frustrating, but other people shouldn't try to manage the
situation.

Being easily frustrated as a kid about music practice and other things (art,
sewing, remembering things/names/numbers), I think what would have helped me
in a situation like the frustrating violin practice would be for my mom to
have put a bowl of ice cream near me and smiled and gone back away. Or maybe
"Do you want to go to the store with me and finish practicing later?" Maybe
three ten minute sessions would be better for her than a solid half hour.

Sandra

[email protected]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:41:32 -0000 "luv2unskool" <cmr0523@...>
writes:
> No, not lying. I think it sounds wonderful, and I tell her so. I
> don't just praise her when it is 100% perfect, thus pushing the
> perfection issue. To me, it DOES sound beautiful.
>
>
My daughter started taking voice lessons a few weeks ago, with an amazing
74 year old instructor who thinks she's wonderful. I know nothing about
singing, being strictly of the "open your mouth and let it out" school. I
am learning a lot just through watching, though. I find that it works
better for Rain if I make specific comments that show that I'm paying
attention, when that's what she wants, rather than judgements like "that
sounds beautiful". I notice the shape of her mouth, I ask about whether a
warm up she's doing is the same as another I've heard but with different
sounds, I mention how long she carried a note. Her voice teacher makes
judgements - that's her job - but I see mine as being along for the
process.

Dar

Mary Bianco

I am the one that wrote a while ago about threatening to take the door off
the hinges when my daughter slammed hers so much. I'm also the one that said
the only thing that got through to her when she was in her "terrible" stage
was grounding. Both of those things worked for her for those problems where
these were the consequences for.

I didn't help her. Not in the least. The repercussions were extreme and I
firmly believe I hurt more than I helped. I helped us at the time because
she was more obedient and quiet. She was not a happy kid and later it came
back to haunt us all. I did what I thought was best at the time. I knew no
better. I had two little ones at the time that were watching their older
sisters every move. I just wanted her to stop before they started slamming
and talking back fiercely too. When I know better, I do better.

I know better now.

Know why? Because I've done it both ways. A lot of people responding have
been homeschooling/unschooling since their kids were born or very little. My
oldest has always, even now been in the school system. My views on how
children were to be treated has changed. I've done it the wrong way and now
the right way.

Although the others are only soon to be 8,7 and now 2, I don't see what I
did in my oldest even at these ages. When people say they don't see their
kids doing those things at those ages, even though we can't ever really say
for sure, I believe them whole heartedly. It does make a difference in what
we do and how they react. I KNOW this to be true.

It's never too late. My oldest is almost 17 and every day we work on the
damage that's been done in the past. We're doing a great job. She's a great
kid. A really great kid. And when I honestly let her know that every minute
of the day, no matter how she was acting, she started to believe it too.
When I started to show her the respect and consideration and trust I asked
for from her, I started to get it back. It didn't happen over night. It's
not easy to do. Sometimes we really don't see what we're doing wrong with
our kids. We love them so much, we can't possibly think of what we feel is
right is harming them. A lot does. Listen to what they are saying. Listen
very carefully. When the kids are feeling a certain way, it's because they
are "feeling" it. We have no right to play that down by saying "I'm not" and
"No you don't" and "that's not true." It's what they really feel. Help them
with that. Read a book, read 10 books. You've got some really good
suggestions for books here. Read them twice if you have to.

Don't punish her and don't make her decide what you should "do" with her. It
might help you now, it won't help her at all. Trust me on this one. My
daughter was close to losing it all because I didn't try hard enough to
understand and really help her. Listen to what people are saying here. I
don't know what you've heard off list, but I do hear what is being said
here. They are right.

Mary B

_________________________________________________________________
Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month.� Try MSN!
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Cathy Ruehlman

> Being easily frustrated as a kid about music practice and other things
(art,
> sewing, remembering things/names/numbers),

I was wondering what kind of response might be helpful to 5 yr old who was
frustrated & angry at her art class because she felt that everyone else's
sun was better than hers!?! I acknowledged that she was frustrated, and
asked her how she wanted it to be different. She cried a little, but
wouldn't talk anymore about it. She also recently lost her mind after her
sister who is 3 yrs older beat her in a running race. I held her (along
with our 4 month old, who was in the sling), and said it was hard, and tried
to comfort her. She jumped up and screamed and raced around trying to hit
her sister. I know having a new baby is adding to her frustration, but I'm
at a loss of what to do. I did talk later on about how frustrating things
can be, but I don't actually think I'm helping her.

Cathy

[email protected]

> He doesn't have inappropriate behaviors. He behaves exactly as he is
> able to in any situation.

Deb - Thank you for this. What a light bulb moment for me!

Elizabeth


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