math doubts
[email protected]
Well, I'm having typical unschooling doubts - this time about math. I just
spent a few days with a friend who has a 17yob that she unschooled. She's now
using more of a traditional curriculum with her 9yog, in part because her dd
prefers that learning style.
In any case, she never really pushed math with her son, and to this day he has
difficulty with basic calculations. He can do it, but without the immediate
resource of memorized math facts, he's quite slow at it.
My 9yo dd was born to be unschooled. She's a "flower child" - a dreamer,
gifted, with some ADD tendencies. She likes math, but has little desire to
sit down and do worksheets. We have lots of math software which she does once
in a while... I also have printed out blank times tables for her to fill in.
I have math wrap-ups, cuisenaire rods, and board games that include math. She
does them sometimes, but not regularly.
She used a vtech computer game to teach herself pre-algebra last year... she can
figure it out, but it takes time because she doesn't have her times tables and
basic math facts memorized. She also puts up a wall when I try and show her
something... at lunch the other day, she asked what 23 divided by 4 was. When
I told her 5, with 3 left over, she put on a face and asked what 3 left over
meant. When I first illustrated it, she pouted and said she didn't understand
(she wasn't trying). I tried to illustrate it again in a different way, and
this time she listened and understood immediately.
SO do I let unschooling run its course, keep introducing math as we go in
various ways (computer, board games, manipulatives, etc.), and figure she'll
pick up what she needs when she needs it...
OR do I agree with my friend, who, if she had to do it over again with her
unschooled son, said she would definitely have unschooled everything EXCEPT
math because it's something you need constant reiteration on for basic facts,
and there are many advanced principles (geometry, fractions, algebra, etc.)
that need "book time," where you sit down and teach them math just about once
every day....?
Thanks in advance for everyone's help with this!
Robin
Orlando, FL
:-)
spent a few days with a friend who has a 17yob that she unschooled. She's now
using more of a traditional curriculum with her 9yog, in part because her dd
prefers that learning style.
In any case, she never really pushed math with her son, and to this day he has
difficulty with basic calculations. He can do it, but without the immediate
resource of memorized math facts, he's quite slow at it.
My 9yo dd was born to be unschooled. She's a "flower child" - a dreamer,
gifted, with some ADD tendencies. She likes math, but has little desire to
sit down and do worksheets. We have lots of math software which she does once
in a while... I also have printed out blank times tables for her to fill in.
I have math wrap-ups, cuisenaire rods, and board games that include math. She
does them sometimes, but not regularly.
She used a vtech computer game to teach herself pre-algebra last year... she can
figure it out, but it takes time because she doesn't have her times tables and
basic math facts memorized. She also puts up a wall when I try and show her
something... at lunch the other day, she asked what 23 divided by 4 was. When
I told her 5, with 3 left over, she put on a face and asked what 3 left over
meant. When I first illustrated it, she pouted and said she didn't understand
(she wasn't trying). I tried to illustrate it again in a different way, and
this time she listened and understood immediately.
SO do I let unschooling run its course, keep introducing math as we go in
various ways (computer, board games, manipulatives, etc.), and figure she'll
pick up what she needs when she needs it...
OR do I agree with my friend, who, if she had to do it over again with her
unschooled son, said she would definitely have unschooled everything EXCEPT
math because it's something you need constant reiteration on for basic facts,
and there are many advanced principles (geometry, fractions, algebra, etc.)
that need "book time," where you sit down and teach them math just about once
every day....?
Thanks in advance for everyone's help with this!
Robin
Orlando, FL
:-)
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> am doing repetition of problems, and I even find that with this, if we workI think you've voiced my biggest concern . When
> the problems 3 days a week, then don't do it for a week, the next time I give
> him the problem, he doesn't know how
>
kids acquire their math knowledge this way, I'm not sure they really learn
it. I have homeschooler's math anxiety as bad as the next guy, but
I know that doing Saxon (in our early homeschooling days) only turned
my math lover into a math dreader. And........like you
said.......he'd forget it unless there was constant repetition. I
decided if he was going to forget it anyway, why waste our precious
time hammering away at it. If he needs to review computation for
the ACT or SAT, we can review then and go for it. See......without
this drill, he gets the bigger picture- real math - not computation.
When I was younger, I could compute and because of that I was in the
gifted math programs. But I didn't GET it. He loves physics,
astro-physics, the concept of time in space, geometry. Granted he
doesn't tackle these in a nice orderly fashion which would overwhelm
me with joy, but he really gets what he needs and moves way beyond
my understanding of math. I'd love to have the assurance that what
I'm doing is absolutely right, but no one can give me that. I just
know that I'd hate to ruin where he is now by intruding on his
learning with repetition and drills. Just my $.02.
Diane in kS
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 9:24:54 AM EST, RNorell@... writes:
<< OR do I agree with my friend, who, if she had to do it over again with her
unschooled son, said she would definitely have unschooled everything EXCEPT
math because it's something you need constant reiteration on for basic facts,
I know exactly the quandary you are in, I am there myself. I think I am
going with the friend! I believe that the base line needs to be taught, that
is providing the child with the resource that they need, then they can figure
out, and do what they want with the higher forms of math when they are ready.
My two cents anyway! LOL
Teresa
<< OR do I agree with my friend, who, if she had to do it over again with her
unschooled son, said she would definitely have unschooled everything EXCEPT
math because it's something you need constant reiteration on for basic facts,
>>Robin,
I know exactly the quandary you are in, I am there myself. I think I am
going with the friend! I believe that the base line needs to be taught, that
is providing the child with the resource that they need, then they can figure
out, and do what they want with the higher forms of math when they are ready.
My two cents anyway! LOL
Teresa
[email protected]
Theresa and Robin-
I am doing what the friend is doing. We are learning through life... Except
Math. I have Saxon 65 and though ds is having to recorrect sections of it, I
feel that I need to have him work in this subject. He hates to do it, but it
is getting done. I even see some improvement....
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
I am doing what the friend is doing. We are learning through life... Except
Math. I have Saxon 65 and though ds is having to recorrect sections of it, I
feel that I need to have him work in this subject. He hates to do it, but it
is getting done. I even see some improvement....
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
Joel Hawthorne
You need it? If someone hates to do something and is compelled to by someone
else ....What does that mean? How does it feel? I remember vividly. I even
remember some of the things I learned in that context. I actually don't
remember a single mathematical thing I was compelled to learn. I still have
trouble with 8 +5. Verbal stuff I remember but being compelled wasn't an asset
in the process of learning it.
I write this solely because this is unschooling-dotcom on a purely homeschooling
list I might just keep my lip zipped. In this context I think I will keep asking
the question.
LifesLearn@... wrote:
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
else ....What does that mean? How does it feel? I remember vividly. I even
remember some of the things I learned in that context. I actually don't
remember a single mathematical thing I was compelled to learn. I still have
trouble with 8 +5. Verbal stuff I remember but being compelled wasn't an asset
in the process of learning it.
I write this solely because this is unschooling-dotcom on a purely homeschooling
list I might just keep my lip zipped. In this context I think I will keep asking
the question.
LifesLearn@... wrote:
> From: LifesLearn@...best wishes
>
> Theresa and Robin-
> I am doing what the friend is doing. We are learning through life... Except
> Math. I have Saxon 65 and though ds is having to recorrect sections of it, I
> feel that I need to have him work in this subject. He hates to do it, but it
> is getting done. I even see some improvement....
>
> Blessings,
> Stephanie
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Joel Hawthorne
What makes her think that if she had drilled him he would be any better? Maybe he
doesn't like math, finds it really disagreeable to his brain and want to live his
life around this minor obstacle. He should carry a calculator and will have less
trouble with basic calculations. If it is important enough to him and he is able, he
will learn the basic number facts when he needs them. If it isn't he won't.
And yes I can easily imagine children blaming their parents because they don't know
something and wish their parent had "made" them do it. I say "Sorry you feel that
way but it is your life and I was not willing to force you to do things that you
clearly did not want to do in the area of learning and thinking. It is your
responsibility which sometimes is wonderful and exciting challenge and other times a
scary and difficult challenge. That's the way life is.
RNorell@... wrote:
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
doesn't like math, finds it really disagreeable to his brain and want to live his
life around this minor obstacle. He should carry a calculator and will have less
trouble with basic calculations. If it is important enough to him and he is able, he
will learn the basic number facts when he needs them. If it isn't he won't.
And yes I can easily imagine children blaming their parents because they don't know
something and wish their parent had "made" them do it. I say "Sorry you feel that
way but it is your life and I was not willing to force you to do things that you
clearly did not want to do in the area of learning and thinking. It is your
responsibility which sometimes is wonderful and exciting challenge and other times a
scary and difficult challenge. That's the way life is.
RNorell@... wrote:
> From: RNorell@...snip
>
> Well, I'm having typical unschooling doubts - this time about math. I just
> spent a few days with a friend who has a 17yob that she unschooled. She's now
> using more of a traditional curriculum with her 9yog, in part because her dd
> prefers that learning style.
>
> In any case, she never really pushed math with her son, and to this day he has
> difficulty with basic calculations. He can do it, but without the immediate
> resource of memorized math facts, he's quite slow at it.
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/1999 7:43:50 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< I write this solely because this is unschooling-dotcom on a purely
homeschooling
list I might just keep my lip zipped. In this context I think I will keep
asking
the question. >>
But Joel, I value your opinions. My ds wants to be a geologist. he is
into all of the aspects, but has not gotten the idea of the need for
mathematics. He loves rocks soil and is happiest when searching for answers
to the ?? Where oil comes from, how geodes are formed, etc. I felt compelled
to have him progress on the mathematical side. I can say that when we are
measuring stalagmites, he will definitely get involved, and sit there
figuring out the diameter and everything *without the book*.
Is this where I say, "Shoot, I missed it, he is doing Math"? I just now
thought about that, and the idea that he is in 4th grade, and we are not near
covering volume/depth/diameter...
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< I write this solely because this is unschooling-dotcom on a purely
homeschooling
list I might just keep my lip zipped. In this context I think I will keep
asking
the question. >>
But Joel, I value your opinions. My ds wants to be a geologist. he is
into all of the aspects, but has not gotten the idea of the need for
mathematics. He loves rocks soil and is happiest when searching for answers
to the ?? Where oil comes from, how geodes are formed, etc. I felt compelled
to have him progress on the mathematical side. I can say that when we are
measuring stalagmites, he will definitely get involved, and sit there
figuring out the diameter and everything *without the book*.
Is this where I say, "Shoot, I missed it, he is doing Math"? I just now
thought about that, and the idea that he is in 4th grade, and we are not near
covering volume/depth/diameter...
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 12:21:56 PM EST, LifesLearn@... writes:
<< I have Saxon 65 >>
Stephanie,
I use Saxon too! I stopped last year, and ds really went backwards. Now I
am doing repetition of problems, and I even find that with this, if we work
the problems 3 days a week, then don't do it for a week, the next time I give
him the problem, he doesn't know how
Teresa
<< I have Saxon 65 >>
Stephanie,
I use Saxon too! I stopped last year, and ds really went backwards. Now I
am doing repetition of problems, and I even find that with this, if we work
the problems 3 days a week, then don't do it for a week, the next time I give
him the problem, he doesn't know how
Teresa
Lynda
Stephanie, how old is your son? As a math nut, let me say that I despise
Saxon math. For math, I've bought the kidlets games (board, card, video
and computer) which they have "fun" with. Math should be fun (like the 9
times and fun ways to remember them) and if it isn't you will only succeed
in making a math phobic kid. There are also several "fun" math site that I
will look up and send. The kidlets didn't even realise they were doing
math until they (the older ones) decided to look at some books on getting
into college and sample tests for it.
Lynda
----------
Saxon math. For math, I've bought the kidlets games (board, card, video
and computer) which they have "fun" with. Math should be fun (like the 9
times and fun ways to remember them) and if it isn't you will only succeed
in making a math phobic kid. There are also several "fun" math site that I
will look up and send. The kidlets didn't even realise they were doing
math until they (the older ones) decided to look at some books on getting
into college and sample tests for it.
Lynda
----------
> > Theresa and Robin-Except
> > I am doing what the friend is doing. We are learning through life...
> > Math. I have Saxon 65 and though ds is having to recorrect sections ofit, I
> > feel that I need to have him work in this subject. He hates to do it,but it
> > is getting done. I even see some improvement....
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Stephanie
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 2:55:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< And yes I can easily imagine children blaming their parents because they
don't know
something and wish their parent had "made" them do it. I say "Sorry you
feel that
way but it is your life and I was not willing to force you to do things that
you
clearly did not want to do in the area of learning and thinking. It is your
responsibility which sometimes is wonderful and exciting challenge and other
times a
scary and difficult challenge. That's the way life is.
better at math or anything else. I have even tried very hard to get my ps
kids to do things the teacher requests to no avail. Which comes as no
surprise to me. I wish there were an easy answer.
Laura
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< And yes I can easily imagine children blaming their parents because they
don't know
something and wish their parent had "made" them do it. I say "Sorry you
feel that
way but it is your life and I was not willing to force you to do things that
you
clearly did not want to do in the area of learning and thinking. It is your
responsibility which sometimes is wonderful and exciting challenge and other
times a
scary and difficult challenge. That's the way life is.
>>Hey all I can say is I know plenty of kids who went to school and do no
better at math or anything else. I have even tried very hard to get my ps
kids to do things the teacher requests to no avail. Which comes as no
surprise to me. I wish there were an easy answer.
Laura
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 6:01:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
LifesLearn@... writes:
<< Is this where I say, "Shoot, I missed it, he is doing Math"? I just now
thought about that, and the idea that he is in 4th grade, and we are not
near
covering volume/depth/diameter... >>
My dear ps sons are teenagers and they are not near that either.LOL (sad but
true)
I think you have some time. I think a good grasp on basic arithmetic by the
age of 12 or so would be the best investment to future success.
Laura
LifesLearn@... writes:
<< Is this where I say, "Shoot, I missed it, he is doing Math"? I just now
thought about that, and the idea that he is in 4th grade, and we are not
near
covering volume/depth/diameter... >>
My dear ps sons are teenagers and they are not near that either.LOL (sad but
true)
I think you have some time. I think a good grasp on basic arithmetic by the
age of 12 or so would be the best investment to future success.
Laura
Lisa Bugg
>I
> In a m:
>> Stephanie,
> I use Saxon too! I stopped last year, and ds really went backwards. Now
> am doing repetition of problems, and I even find that with this, if wework
> the problems 3 days a week, then don't do it for a week, the next time Igive
> him the problem, he doesn't know howSo, doesn't this mean that all of that drill and kill is NOT taking hold. If
> Teresa
>
it was, there would be no need to redo and redo.
Sometimes we have to wait. Waiting is hard.
Waiting causes both parent and child to grow.
Lisa
[email protected]
Theresa,
After 2.5 months of showing ds how to multiply, make him re do the work, and
re do the work, he has finally figured it out! His problem is with the 3
digit multiplication, er, was!
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
After 2.5 months of showing ds how to multiply, make him re do the work, and
re do the work, he has finally figured it out! His problem is with the 3
digit multiplication, er, was!
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
[email protected]
I used to think that people who could not add fast were "slow". I used
to think the kid who sat next to me doodling all day was wasting his
life. He is now a professional artist. I used to think the guy who
walked around the halls with his boombox and tapes was obsessed. He is
now in broadcasting. I used to have pity on "Bob" who had to repeat a
year because he flunked a basic math requirement. He is now a print
artist.
I used to think that if you did not learn your basic facts that life was
going to deal you a harsh blow in adulthood. These are all people who
the teachers turned their backs on to pay attention to the good students
(who weren't there to waste their time). My best friend was held back
because a teacher flunked her in p.e. class (she was overweight and he
didn't like her). She is now a devoted teacher to special needs
children. Then of course, I have one of these children. She suffered
hours and hours of drill, review, special classes....all in the name of
basic math facts. They made her cry, they made her ashamed, they made
her ill....This is how we discovered unschooling. Yes, we have left Mr.
Saxon on the shelf... ordered all kinds of "fun" math related
books....baked 2 cakes this week...went yesterday morning to the vets,
she showed us how to measure the advantage for our small dogs by using
the larger available size saving us big $$$....went shopping last night
and figured how much her play checkbook, play money,and play cell
phone(she said she can't be a good business person without a cell phone)
would amount to...figured the tax (luckily is 7%, which is one she can
remember)....we play games...she uses a note pad and pencil to double
check herself. The point being, she is no longer ashamed to use her math
skills. She has made leaps and bounds in the last two years and loves
geometry. She can do complex problems better than basic math facts...I
think if we looked deep into our own society we would be surprised how
many people don't know their math facts...we are just good at thinking
that only a select few are in this boat....why does the IRS allow us to
let them figure our tax when it comes to the basic add/subtract...why is
the largest portion of checks I receive back for NSF is by the
"educated" folks....why is it that everyone runs to our local
"we-sell-it-all-mart" when they are actually the highest priced retailer
on any item that is not on the midway?
I hope we don't base our childrens success in life on basic math
facts...I think it would be unfair to judge one on their math skill..I'm
sure the young man has many other attributes...shame to let them be
overshadowed by default in the math category....it is hurtful and
emotionally draining for them. I'm glad I have my friends from my school
days to remind me there's more to life than basic math facts and three
wonderful kids to show me what life is really about!
Aleasa
to think the kid who sat next to me doodling all day was wasting his
life. He is now a professional artist. I used to think the guy who
walked around the halls with his boombox and tapes was obsessed. He is
now in broadcasting. I used to have pity on "Bob" who had to repeat a
year because he flunked a basic math requirement. He is now a print
artist.
I used to think that if you did not learn your basic facts that life was
going to deal you a harsh blow in adulthood. These are all people who
the teachers turned their backs on to pay attention to the good students
(who weren't there to waste their time). My best friend was held back
because a teacher flunked her in p.e. class (she was overweight and he
didn't like her). She is now a devoted teacher to special needs
children. Then of course, I have one of these children. She suffered
hours and hours of drill, review, special classes....all in the name of
basic math facts. They made her cry, they made her ashamed, they made
her ill....This is how we discovered unschooling. Yes, we have left Mr.
Saxon on the shelf... ordered all kinds of "fun" math related
books....baked 2 cakes this week...went yesterday morning to the vets,
she showed us how to measure the advantage for our small dogs by using
the larger available size saving us big $$$....went shopping last night
and figured how much her play checkbook, play money,and play cell
phone(she said she can't be a good business person without a cell phone)
would amount to...figured the tax (luckily is 7%, which is one she can
remember)....we play games...she uses a note pad and pencil to double
check herself. The point being, she is no longer ashamed to use her math
skills. She has made leaps and bounds in the last two years and loves
geometry. She can do complex problems better than basic math facts...I
think if we looked deep into our own society we would be surprised how
many people don't know their math facts...we are just good at thinking
that only a select few are in this boat....why does the IRS allow us to
let them figure our tax when it comes to the basic add/subtract...why is
the largest portion of checks I receive back for NSF is by the
"educated" folks....why is it that everyone runs to our local
"we-sell-it-all-mart" when they are actually the highest priced retailer
on any item that is not on the midway?
I hope we don't base our childrens success in life on basic math
facts...I think it would be unfair to judge one on their math skill..I'm
sure the young man has many other attributes...shame to let them be
overshadowed by default in the math category....it is hurtful and
emotionally draining for them. I'm glad I have my friends from my school
days to remind me there's more to life than basic math facts and three
wonderful kids to show me what life is really about!
Aleasa
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 2:24:05 PM EST, jhawthorne@... writes:
<< I actually don't
remember a single mathematical thing I was compelled to learn. >>
Joel,
I am sorry that you don't remember what you were compelled to learn, however,
that is not true of everyone. There are many things that I had to learn, and
quickly forgot, but basic math, reading and writing are not among them. No,
I didn't like it, and yes I remember what it felt like. But you what? The
things that you need to know you remember, I can't name all the capitols of
the states, doubt I could name all the states, can't name all the presidents
in order, all the countries in the world, ect, ect. But I know where to
look, it would take me a long time to find some of the information, but I
could find it. In the grocery store or at the mall, I wouldn't have all that
time to figure out if I was paying the right amount, or if I got the right
change back. What I mean to say is, there are times when you have time, and
there are times when you don't. So, that is why it is important to me that
my children need to learn the basics. I hope what I have said conveys what I
mean, not to argue, just to say how I feel. : )
Teresa
<< I actually don't
remember a single mathematical thing I was compelled to learn. >>
Joel,
I am sorry that you don't remember what you were compelled to learn, however,
that is not true of everyone. There are many things that I had to learn, and
quickly forgot, but basic math, reading and writing are not among them. No,
I didn't like it, and yes I remember what it felt like. But you what? The
things that you need to know you remember, I can't name all the capitols of
the states, doubt I could name all the states, can't name all the presidents
in order, all the countries in the world, ect, ect. But I know where to
look, it would take me a long time to find some of the information, but I
could find it. In the grocery store or at the mall, I wouldn't have all that
time to figure out if I was paying the right amount, or if I got the right
change back. What I mean to say is, there are times when you have time, and
there are times when you don't. So, that is why it is important to me that
my children need to learn the basics. I hope what I have said conveys what I
mean, not to argue, just to say how I feel. : )
Teresa
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 6:24:44 PM EST, jagwirtz@... writes:
<< I just
know that I'd hate to ruin where he is now by intruding on his
learning with repetition and drills. >>
Diane,
My ds, is the opposite, he isn't into physics, or the advanced stuff, but he
did like the Saxon math. we skipped the drills, except for the times tables.
Now, I wouldn't say that we beat it to death. He is in 5th grade and still
working on 7 and 8s. But we do the basics, if it is word problems or mouse
math. The repetition that I was referring to was the fact that he needs to
do the same types of things. Maybe that is wrong, and maybe, now that I
really think about it, I only really make them learn the times tables, the
rest we take or leave, as far as memorizing. But, I do think I will go back
to Saxon, even if just as a reference book.
Teresa
<< I just
know that I'd hate to ruin where he is now by intruding on his
learning with repetition and drills. >>
Diane,
My ds, is the opposite, he isn't into physics, or the advanced stuff, but he
did like the Saxon math. we skipped the drills, except for the times tables.
Now, I wouldn't say that we beat it to death. He is in 5th grade and still
working on 7 and 8s. But we do the basics, if it is word problems or mouse
math. The repetition that I was referring to was the fact that he needs to
do the same types of things. Maybe that is wrong, and maybe, now that I
really think about it, I only really make them learn the times tables, the
rest we take or leave, as far as memorizing. But, I do think I will go back
to Saxon, even if just as a reference book.
Teresa
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 8:30:34 PM EST, lurine@... writes:
<< There are also several "fun" math site that I
will look up and send. The kidlets didn't even realise they were doing
math until they (the older ones) decided to look at some books on getting
into college and sample tests for it. >>
Lynda,
Send me the sites PLEASE! : >
Teresa
<< There are also several "fun" math site that I
will look up and send. The kidlets didn't even realise they were doing
math until they (the older ones) decided to look at some books on getting
into college and sample tests for it. >>
Lynda,
Send me the sites PLEASE! : >
Teresa
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/19/99 9:37:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
LisaBugg@... writes:
<< So, doesn't this mean that all of that drill and kill is NOT taking hold.
If
it was, there would be no need to redo and redo.
getting when he was in school and he has caught on great. He had a feeling he
was a real failure so I'm glad we have spent some time on this for him to see
he can understand it. If I had waited for him he may never again have touched
math because he just felt stupid. I feel it's my job to try to help him have
success with some of the things he had trouble with in school so he will try
again.
Laura
LisaBugg@... writes:
<< So, doesn't this mean that all of that drill and kill is NOT taking hold.
If
it was, there would be no need to redo and redo.
>>On the other hand I have gone back over some of the things my son was not
getting when he was in school and he has caught on great. He had a feeling he
was a real failure so I'm glad we have spent some time on this for him to see
he can understand it. If I had waited for him he may never again have touched
math because he just felt stupid. I feel it's my job to try to help him have
success with some of the things he had trouble with in school so he will try
again.
Laura
Lisa Bugg
There are many things that I had to learn, and
them, even with drill, it's because they do not yet need the facts. It's
like asking a baby who is spending all their energy learning how to speak
our language to begin to learn how to sing. They aren't ready to sing yet,
they have this talking thing to learn. There are wonderful studies out
there that prove our anecdotal evidence that a child deep in the throes of
learning language is not working out mathematical issues, and that children
who are concentrating on math, are not spending much energy on
verbal/language skills. Everything has it's season.
There is no such thing as *progress*, much less steady progress, there is
only understanding. The time we spend asking our children to think and work
on things we think are important *for the future* is time not spent on
material that has meaning for them now. We do not know what we are short
circuiting my demanding drill time, drill that even the poster says leaves
the child in a heartbeat.
How much better off would that child be if he was allowed to move toward
math at his own rate, in his own time?
To complicate matters, I'm not advocating never mentioning math to our
children, or never showing them what *school math* looks like. It's part of
my job to expose my children to the wider world and that includes math facts
and math books and *school math*. I just don't place the save value that
society has placed on being able to whip out math facts. I have made other
choices, choices that I think serve my children ,and society as a whole,
much better. I have asked them to think critically about their needs and
then to take action in regard to those needs.
My children are acting upon this choice, and I have learned to wait. I'm
not necessarily calm while I wait.... but I've learning waiting is best.
Lisa
> quickly forgot, but basic math, reading and writing are not among them.No,
> I didn't like it, and yes I remember what it felt like. But you what?The
> things that you need to know you remember,I think that's the point... and that if the children are not remembering
them, even with drill, it's because they do not yet need the facts. It's
like asking a baby who is spending all their energy learning how to speak
our language to begin to learn how to sing. They aren't ready to sing yet,
they have this talking thing to learn. There are wonderful studies out
there that prove our anecdotal evidence that a child deep in the throes of
learning language is not working out mathematical issues, and that children
who are concentrating on math, are not spending much energy on
verbal/language skills. Everything has it's season.
There is no such thing as *progress*, much less steady progress, there is
only understanding. The time we spend asking our children to think and work
on things we think are important *for the future* is time not spent on
material that has meaning for them now. We do not know what we are short
circuiting my demanding drill time, drill that even the poster says leaves
the child in a heartbeat.
How much better off would that child be if he was allowed to move toward
math at his own rate, in his own time?
To complicate matters, I'm not advocating never mentioning math to our
children, or never showing them what *school math* looks like. It's part of
my job to expose my children to the wider world and that includes math facts
and math books and *school math*. I just don't place the save value that
society has placed on being able to whip out math facts. I have made other
choices, choices that I think serve my children ,and society as a whole,
much better. I have asked them to think critically about their needs and
then to take action in regard to those needs.
My children are acting upon this choice, and I have learned to wait. I'm
not necessarily calm while I wait.... but I've learning waiting is best.
Lisa
Lisa Bugg
> On the other hand I have gone back over some of the things my son wasnot
> getting when he was in school and he has caught on great. He had a feelinghe
> was a real failure so I'm glad we have spent some time on this for him tosee
> he can understand it. If I had waited for him he may never again havetouched
> math because he just felt stupidThis is kind of a different issue. Healing from public school does take a
more proactive stance sometimes. The method used to explain any given
subject just might not have been the best one for a specific child and they
are left with thinking it's all about them, not the school, that is the
problem.
I do not think he would have never touched math, as I don't think that's
possible, but there is a blending thing that must go on. I surely wouldn't
have wanted him to spend years thinking he is stupid, that's worse than
forcing math to me.
I have a child that has spent 5 years eating, sleeping, breathing and
teaching karate. She's never been late for work and she was never late for
class unless it was my fault. <g> But there were two times that I *made*
her go to class. Once was very early on, she had missed some interpersonal
cues and embarrassed herself in class, she just didn't want to go in the
door the next day. I did a fairly good job of being an authoritarian parent
that day. The second time was after a car accident and hit hurt like all
get out to go to class. This was not about KARATE, this was about HER. She
did not have to go back in order to learn karate, there were tons of other
options available, this was about her own personal growth, her own strength
of character.
It's a hard thing we do sometimes, this unschooling/parenting thing. It's
good we're human, we don't have to do it perfectly.
Lisa
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/1999 5:49:25 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Hsmotgo@...
writes:
<< Lynda,
Send me the sites PLEASE! : >
Teresa >>
I would like those sites too!
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
writes:
<< Lynda,
Send me the sites PLEASE! : >
Teresa >>
I would like those sites too!
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/1999 1:30:32 AM !!!First Boot!!!, lurine@...
writes:
<< Stephanie, how old is your son? As a math nut, let me say that I despise
Saxon math. For math, I've bought the kidlets games (board, card, video
and computer) which they have "fun" with. >>
Ds is close to 10. He likes Saxon, but some things he doesn't catch right
off. We are Dice fanatics, and whenever we are waiting, we make a point of
playing with them. The doctor is probably thinking that I am bringing up
gamblers! The girls have to count their die, but the older one is also
learning how to add the numbers together. With ds, we can vary it a bit.
Using the die, I can have him multiply, add, etc.
What kinds of games do you have? I am thinking of giving him a notebook
and 100.00 at the top, and having him tally the bill as we shop....
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
writes:
<< Stephanie, how old is your son? As a math nut, let me say that I despise
Saxon math. For math, I've bought the kidlets games (board, card, video
and computer) which they have "fun" with. >>
Ds is close to 10. He likes Saxon, but some things he doesn't catch right
off. We are Dice fanatics, and whenever we are waiting, we make a point of
playing with them. The doctor is probably thinking that I am bringing up
gamblers! The girls have to count their die, but the older one is also
learning how to add the numbers together. With ds, we can vary it a bit.
Using the die, I can have him multiply, add, etc.
What kinds of games do you have? I am thinking of giving him a notebook
and 100.00 at the top, and having him tally the bill as we shop....
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/99 9:47:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LisaBugg@... writes:
<< This is kind of a different issue. Healing from public school does take a
more proactive stance sometimes. The method used to explain any given
subject just might not have been the best one for a specific child and they
are left with thinking it's all about them, not the school, that is the
problem. >>
You're right but starting down the unschooling or just plain old hsing path
is so confusing at first. How we separate undoing damage from unschooling is
difficult at first. I am tiptoeing.
Laura
LisaBugg@... writes:
<< This is kind of a different issue. Healing from public school does take a
more proactive stance sometimes. The method used to explain any given
subject just might not have been the best one for a specific child and they
are left with thinking it's all about them, not the school, that is the
problem. >>
You're right but starting down the unschooling or just plain old hsing path
is so confusing at first. How we separate undoing damage from unschooling is
difficult at first. I am tiptoeing.
Laura
Joel Hawthorne
I realize that I do remember timetables and was compelled to learn them. I
remember watching other kids in my class cry because they didn't get the big
stick on star which you "earned" if you went five weeks with 100% scores on the
weekly times tables quiz. Each week with a 100% score on a ten question test you
got a little star that went on a grid with everyone's name. The fifth week you
got a great BIG star. Must have been a wonderful experience for those kids with
NO stars next to their names. My grandmother drilled me and I mostly enjoyed it
because I liked my grandmother and wanted to please her. I remember getting 4
stars in row and then missing a question on the next test. It happened to
several kids several times. Cathy Roper (where are you now?) burst into loud
sobbing on one of those occasions. I certainly remember that as vividly as 6 X
9. The humiliation was enormous. This was 4th grade with a martinet teacher
whose harshness was disgusting. My mother being a teacher always added an
interesting twist to everything. She worked in the same school. The comments on
the report cards are so revealing.... another story for another time. Anyway I
know my states and state capitals not that it is useful...but it gives the
superficial appearance of being knowledgeable. As for the grocery store a
calculator is a must for me (when I care) if I want to do the rather complicated
calculations required by the pricing/ weight/ packaging maze created to befuddle
the public and conceal actual costs to the consumer.
Hsmotgo@... wrote:
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
remember watching other kids in my class cry because they didn't get the big
stick on star which you "earned" if you went five weeks with 100% scores on the
weekly times tables quiz. Each week with a 100% score on a ten question test you
got a little star that went on a grid with everyone's name. The fifth week you
got a great BIG star. Must have been a wonderful experience for those kids with
NO stars next to their names. My grandmother drilled me and I mostly enjoyed it
because I liked my grandmother and wanted to please her. I remember getting 4
stars in row and then missing a question on the next test. It happened to
several kids several times. Cathy Roper (where are you now?) burst into loud
sobbing on one of those occasions. I certainly remember that as vividly as 6 X
9. The humiliation was enormous. This was 4th grade with a martinet teacher
whose harshness was disgusting. My mother being a teacher always added an
interesting twist to everything. She worked in the same school. The comments on
the report cards are so revealing.... another story for another time. Anyway I
know my states and state capitals not that it is useful...but it gives the
superficial appearance of being knowledgeable. As for the grocery store a
calculator is a must for me (when I care) if I want to do the rather complicated
calculations required by the pricing/ weight/ packaging maze created to befuddle
the public and conceal actual costs to the consumer.
Hsmotgo@... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/19/99 2:24:05 PM EST, jhawthorne@... writes:best wishes
>
> << I actually don't
> remember a single mathematical thing I was compelled to learn. >>
> Joel,
> I am sorry that you don't remember what you were compelled to learn,
> however,....snip.... I hope what I have said conveys what I
> mean, not to argue, just to say how I feel. : )
> Teresa
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/99 1:42:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< I realize that I do remember timetables and was compelled to learn them. I
remember watching other kids in my class cry because they didn't get the big
stick on star which you "earned" if you went five weeks with 100% scores on
the
weekly times tables quiz. Each week with a 100% score on a ten question
test you
got a little star that went on a grid with everyone's name. The fifth week
you
got a great BIG star. Must have been a wonderful experience for those kids
with
NO stars next to their names >>
As I go through this parenthood and hs journey so much of this comes back to
me. Both from my memory of school and the things I witnessed with my own kids.
When my 11yro was in 2nd and 3rd grade he always wanted to be super
scholar. He worked so hard and it hit me so forcefully how unfair all of this
stars and stickers and awards stuff can be. Not that awards should never be
given, but here my son was trying his little heart out. There were things he
just could not grasp yet. He was trying far harder than those it came
naturally to yet he could not get the award. How agonizing, couldn't anyone
but me see what a set up for giving up this was. They had other little
gimmicky awards but all the kids knew which were the "important" rewards.
Whew!! Guess I'm still a little angry. Sorry for getting so impassioned.
Laura
jhawthorne@... writes:
<< I realize that I do remember timetables and was compelled to learn them. I
remember watching other kids in my class cry because they didn't get the big
stick on star which you "earned" if you went five weeks with 100% scores on
the
weekly times tables quiz. Each week with a 100% score on a ten question
test you
got a little star that went on a grid with everyone's name. The fifth week
you
got a great BIG star. Must have been a wonderful experience for those kids
with
NO stars next to their names >>
As I go through this parenthood and hs journey so much of this comes back to
me. Both from my memory of school and the things I witnessed with my own kids.
When my 11yro was in 2nd and 3rd grade he always wanted to be super
scholar. He worked so hard and it hit me so forcefully how unfair all of this
stars and stickers and awards stuff can be. Not that awards should never be
given, but here my son was trying his little heart out. There were things he
just could not grasp yet. He was trying far harder than those it came
naturally to yet he could not get the award. How agonizing, couldn't anyone
but me see what a set up for giving up this was. They had other little
gimmicky awards but all the kids knew which were the "important" rewards.
Whew!! Guess I'm still a little angry. Sorry for getting so impassioned.
Laura
Joel Hawthorne
I know you feel compelled. Have faith really. If he needs the math to pursue
his love of "earth" he will spare no effort to get the math he needs when he
needs it. Read Pam Hartley's post again. I think it says it what I really am
trying to say.
LifesLearn@... wrote:
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
his love of "earth" he will spare no effort to get the math he needs when he
needs it. Read Pam Hartley's post again. I think it says it what I really am
trying to say.
LifesLearn@... wrote:
> From: LifesLearn@...snip
> My ds wants to be a geologist. he is--
> into all of the aspects, but has not gotten the idea of the need for
> mathematics. He loves rocks soil and is happiest when searching for answers
> to the ?? Where oil comes from, how geodes are formed, etc. I felt compelled
> to have him progress on the mathematical side. I can say that when we are
> measuring stalagmites, he will definitely get involved, and sit there
> figuring out the diameter and everything *without the book*. snip
best wishes
Joel
For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/99 9:35:34 AM EST, LisaBugg@... writes:
<< My children are acting upon this choice, and I have learned to wait. I'm
not necessarily calm while I wait.... but I've learning waiting is best. >>
I feel that this is becoming an argument, and that was not my intention. I
simply feel that not all of us have forgotten what we learned in school, and
frankly I didn't have a bad time at school, but that was years ago, and a
lifetime away. After 52 years of living, and all things considered, I don't
think it is the best thing for my family to let some things wait. We all
have a different way of going about things, and I guess we all feel that our
way is best. And it is, for our own family. So, I am happy for those who
know what is best for them, and am always happy to discuss the different ways
of doing things with those who haven't found the best way yet. I am still
evolving my "style" LOL, and sometimes the road gets rocky. All the more
reason to discuss concerns, and look for insight.
Teresa
<< My children are acting upon this choice, and I have learned to wait. I'm
not necessarily calm while I wait.... but I've learning waiting is best. >>
I feel that this is becoming an argument, and that was not my intention. I
simply feel that not all of us have forgotten what we learned in school, and
frankly I didn't have a bad time at school, but that was years ago, and a
lifetime away. After 52 years of living, and all things considered, I don't
think it is the best thing for my family to let some things wait. We all
have a different way of going about things, and I guess we all feel that our
way is best. And it is, for our own family. So, I am happy for those who
know what is best for them, and am always happy to discuss the different ways
of doing things with those who haven't found the best way yet. I am still
evolving my "style" LOL, and sometimes the road gets rocky. All the more
reason to discuss concerns, and look for insight.
Teresa
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/99 1:43:02 PM EST, jhawthorne@... writes:
<< Cathy Roper (where are you now?) burst into loud
sobbing on one of those occasions. I certainly remember that as vividly as
6 X
9. The humiliation was enormous. This was 4th grade with a martinet teacher
whose harshness was disgusting. >>
Joel,
Gosh, you really did have a horrible time in school. I guess I was lucky,
nothing like that ever happened in any of my classes. My drills came at
home, my dad was the one that demanded the times tables and did the flash
card thing. To this day I hate flash cards. We do the "multiplication
chant" in the van when we are going to and from.......where ever. Then we
see how good we are with one of the math mouse games. Same game, different
rules! LOL. Anyway, I am sorry about your bad experiences, and those of
your class mates, as with everything in life, our views come from our
experiences, and each person comes equipped with his or her own individual
set. I am sure that you are making sure that your children never go through
that kind of situation, and I wouldn't put mine through it either. I am sure
that I didn't make myself clear in the first post, about Saxon. I love
Saxon, hated the repetition, but love the way it builds gradually, and refers
back on itself. Also, my ds likes the program, but not the timed things, so
we don't do those either. Really, I am not a horrible monster, just your
basically concerned mom! LOL
Teresa
<< Cathy Roper (where are you now?) burst into loud
sobbing on one of those occasions. I certainly remember that as vividly as
6 X
9. The humiliation was enormous. This was 4th grade with a martinet teacher
whose harshness was disgusting. >>
Joel,
Gosh, you really did have a horrible time in school. I guess I was lucky,
nothing like that ever happened in any of my classes. My drills came at
home, my dad was the one that demanded the times tables and did the flash
card thing. To this day I hate flash cards. We do the "multiplication
chant" in the van when we are going to and from.......where ever. Then we
see how good we are with one of the math mouse games. Same game, different
rules! LOL. Anyway, I am sorry about your bad experiences, and those of
your class mates, as with everything in life, our views come from our
experiences, and each person comes equipped with his or her own individual
set. I am sure that you are making sure that your children never go through
that kind of situation, and I wouldn't put mine through it either. I am sure
that I didn't make myself clear in the first post, about Saxon. I love
Saxon, hated the repetition, but love the way it builds gradually, and refers
back on itself. Also, my ds likes the program, but not the timed things, so
we don't do those either. Really, I am not a horrible monster, just your
basically concerned mom! LOL
Teresa
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/99 9:46:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hsmotgo@...
writes:
<< Really, I am not a horrible monster, just your
basically concerned mom! LOL >>
I don't know about anyone else but I sure never felt you were a horrible
monster.
I am really enjoying this conversation. It really gives me lots to think
about. Please
don't take anything personnal, I'm sure no one intends it that way. Or I've
missed something.
Laura
writes:
<< Really, I am not a horrible monster, just your
basically concerned mom! LOL >>
I don't know about anyone else but I sure never felt you were a horrible
monster.
I am really enjoying this conversation. It really gives me lots to think
about. Please
don't take anything personnal, I'm sure no one intends it that way. Or I've
missed something.
Laura
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/99 11:32:23 PM EST, Bonknit@... writes:
<< Please
don't take anything personnal, I'm sure no one intends it that way. Or I've
missed something.
I am sure you are right, probably me just feeling sorry for myself! LOL, but
thanks for the note, brightens my day!
Teresa
<< Please
don't take anything personnal, I'm sure no one intends it that way. Or I've
missed something.
>>Laura,
I am sure you are right, probably me just feeling sorry for myself! LOL, but
thanks for the note, brightens my day!
Teresa