Adult time
Dalene and Andy
I'm catching up on the bedtime discussion. Do I understand you all correctly in saying that you as the adult do not have the right to claim any time to yourself??
That seems a very unkind to yourself??
I have a two-year old and a five-year old. They get up anything from 7:00 in the mornings. I'm blessed with two talkative children. They talk non-stop and ask questions, sometimes without a pause. I don't drop them off, nobody baby sit them, they don't spend hours entertained in front of the TV and they will only play where I am. So we spend the entire day together, interacting with each other.
At night time, I'm done. The eldest one has a bedtime - 8:30 - his father set it - storytime and then he is allowed to do whatever he wishes, but he need to stay in his room. The room is right next to us, so he is not scared or lonely. It doesn't seem as he finds it stressful, but I hear you that one can't always tell what stresses them and what not. We have a bedtime for him, to give us some time out. I need time on my own, in peace to recharge. I honestly believe that if I don't get that, at all, I won't be a very good mother. To be honest, I think my husband is the one that is being neglected by me, because he doesn't get much time from me. My husband usually uses this time to watch the news - something he doesn't do when the kids are awake, because of all the violence on TV.
Another issue is, that my son gets up at 7:00 to see his Dad off to work in the mornings. So in all honesty he needs a certain number of hours to be able to get through the days. He doesn't nap, and he can keep himself awake far longer than what is good for him - like Mum and Dad.
With the youngest one we're still a bit more flexible, because she naps in the afternoon, and then sometimes she is not tired at nights. But we do try to get her to go bed the same time than her brother, but it doesn't always work out.
So please tell me again, do I understand you all correctly in saying that you do not take any time for you all. If you answer is yes you take time, whenever your kids do other things, I ask what if your kids aren't old enough to have their own interests, like mine??
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That seems a very unkind to yourself??
I have a two-year old and a five-year old. They get up anything from 7:00 in the mornings. I'm blessed with two talkative children. They talk non-stop and ask questions, sometimes without a pause. I don't drop them off, nobody baby sit them, they don't spend hours entertained in front of the TV and they will only play where I am. So we spend the entire day together, interacting with each other.
At night time, I'm done. The eldest one has a bedtime - 8:30 - his father set it - storytime and then he is allowed to do whatever he wishes, but he need to stay in his room. The room is right next to us, so he is not scared or lonely. It doesn't seem as he finds it stressful, but I hear you that one can't always tell what stresses them and what not. We have a bedtime for him, to give us some time out. I need time on my own, in peace to recharge. I honestly believe that if I don't get that, at all, I won't be a very good mother. To be honest, I think my husband is the one that is being neglected by me, because he doesn't get much time from me. My husband usually uses this time to watch the news - something he doesn't do when the kids are awake, because of all the violence on TV.
Another issue is, that my son gets up at 7:00 to see his Dad off to work in the mornings. So in all honesty he needs a certain number of hours to be able to get through the days. He doesn't nap, and he can keep himself awake far longer than what is good for him - like Mum and Dad.
With the youngest one we're still a bit more flexible, because she naps in the afternoon, and then sometimes she is not tired at nights. But we do try to get her to go bed the same time than her brother, but it doesn't always work out.
So please tell me again, do I understand you all correctly in saying that you do not take any time for you all. If you answer is yes you take time, whenever your kids do other things, I ask what if your kids aren't old enough to have their own interests, like mine??
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sal3school
I hear you Dalene and Andy!
I talked to my husband about the recent messages and he agrees w/ me-we need
time alone to recharge our batteries. I feel this is good for us and the
kids and yes, I know we are going to have these children for the next 18
plus years God willing. We love our children and consider them Blessings,
but I don't feel we need to be glued at the waist at every minute of the
day! We have off and on times. Sometimes my kids play alone and sometimes we
do things together. So long, Amy
I talked to my husband about the recent messages and he agrees w/ me-we need
time alone to recharge our batteries. I feel this is good for us and the
kids and yes, I know we are going to have these children for the next 18
plus years God willing. We love our children and consider them Blessings,
but I don't feel we need to be glued at the waist at every minute of the
day! We have off and on times. Sometimes my kids play alone and sometimes we
do things together. So long, Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Dalene and Andy <mactier@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Adult time
> I'm catching up on the bedtime discussion. Do I understand you all
correctly in saying that you as the adult do not have the right to claim any
time to yourself??
>
> That seems a very unkind to yourself??
>
> I have a two-year old and a five-year old. They get up anything from 7:00
in the mornings. I'm blessed with two talkative children. They talk non-stop
and ask questions, sometimes without a pause. I don't drop them off, nobody
baby sit them, they don't spend hours entertained in front of the TV and
they will only play where I am. So we spend the entire day together,
interacting with each other.
>
> At night time, I'm done. The eldest one has a bedtime - 8:30 - his father
set it - storytime and then he is allowed to do whatever he wishes, but he
need to stay in his room. The room is right next to us, so he is not scared
or lonely. It doesn't seem as he finds it stressful, but I hear you that one
can't always tell what stresses them and what not. We have a bedtime for
him, to give us some time out. I need time on my own, in peace to recharge.
I honestly believe that if I don't get that, at all, I won't be a very good
mother. To be honest, I think my husband is the one that is being neglected
by me, because he doesn't get much time from me. My husband usually uses
this time to watch the news - something he doesn't do when the kids are
awake, because of all the violence on TV.
>
> Another issue is, that my son gets up at 7:00 to see his Dad off to work
in the mornings. So in all honesty he needs a certain number of hours to be
able to get through the days. He doesn't nap, and he can keep himself awake
far longer than what is good for him - like Mum and Dad.
>
> With the youngest one we're still a bit more flexible, because she naps in
the afternoon, and then sometimes she is not tired at nights. But we do try
to get her to go bed the same time than her brother, but it doesn't always
work out.
>
> So please tell me again, do I understand you all correctly in saying that
you do not take any time for you all. If you answer is yes you take time,
whenever your kids do other things, I ask what if your kids aren't old
enough to have their own interests, like mine??
>
> Dalene
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
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Mary Bianco
Hi Darlene,
My children are 16, 7, 6 and 2. The oldest of course pretty much comes and
goes as she pleases. But again there are always her friends and boyfriend
here too. Part of the deal and when they are here, I don't mind at all.
Except for raiding the kitchen, we don't see them a lot!!!
The 6 and 7 year olds keep themselves busy pretty much although they have
many times during the day where there are questions or they want to play a
game or read a book and I'm included in on that. My 2 year old, is just
getting to the point where she can spend some time alone. Notice I said
some! She will play with the other two and then there are many times when
she wants me to play with her. So like, I'm on pretty much all day long. I
also have cats, dogs, fish and a snake in this array to take care of.
I put the 2 year old down for a nap every day. She can go without it but
turns into a bear so off she goes at 3:00. That's usually when the other 2
watch TV for the day and I get to have breakfast. I try to do it in the
living room so I can have my alone time. I need alone time. That's it for me
for the day. I get about a good hour if I'm lucky and then off to houseclean
or wash something!
My husband is home at around 7:00 and spends the rest of the evening pretty
much non stop with the kids. Our alone time is when the kids all go to bed.
We don't have a set bedtime but we do suggest to the younger three around
11:00 or so. Sometimes later, like last night we all watched Scorpion King
and it was after 11:30 when it ended. Our two younger girls need their
sleep. Our son could go all night long without it. He went to bed at
midnight last night and woke up at 9:00 this morning. That's all he needs
and he constantly goes and never stops talking unless something on TV
catches his mind.
So I know what you are saying.
When it's bedtime for the kids, I usually hit the computer or watch TV with
my husband. But he goes to bed earlier than I as he gets up early. So our
alone time is pretty much slim at home. I usually stay up until 2:00 and
that's my time I need. I need to spend quiet time by myself. My husband and
I will grab time on the weekends by doing dinner and a movie or once in
awhile running off together to Target or something!!! I know it's hard but I
figure it will get better as the kids get older. My husband and I try hard
to make the time we have alone count. Sometimes just walking the dogs gives
us some good conversation time. We make sure we don't lose ourselves so when
the kids are all gone, we still recognize each other!!!
It works for us but I would say if a parent or a couple need more time, they
should take it. Not at the expense of their children, but to make time to
have to themselves. Just as some moms need time to get out alone, some
couples need time alone too. What the parents need I think is a big priority
as if they don'g get it, the kids will suffer. I think people here were just
saying not to send them to bed at 8:00 if they are no where near sleepy just
to be alone with them. It's a compromise.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
My children are 16, 7, 6 and 2. The oldest of course pretty much comes and
goes as she pleases. But again there are always her friends and boyfriend
here too. Part of the deal and when they are here, I don't mind at all.
Except for raiding the kitchen, we don't see them a lot!!!
The 6 and 7 year olds keep themselves busy pretty much although they have
many times during the day where there are questions or they want to play a
game or read a book and I'm included in on that. My 2 year old, is just
getting to the point where she can spend some time alone. Notice I said
some! She will play with the other two and then there are many times when
she wants me to play with her. So like, I'm on pretty much all day long. I
also have cats, dogs, fish and a snake in this array to take care of.
I put the 2 year old down for a nap every day. She can go without it but
turns into a bear so off she goes at 3:00. That's usually when the other 2
watch TV for the day and I get to have breakfast. I try to do it in the
living room so I can have my alone time. I need alone time. That's it for me
for the day. I get about a good hour if I'm lucky and then off to houseclean
or wash something!
My husband is home at around 7:00 and spends the rest of the evening pretty
much non stop with the kids. Our alone time is when the kids all go to bed.
We don't have a set bedtime but we do suggest to the younger three around
11:00 or so. Sometimes later, like last night we all watched Scorpion King
and it was after 11:30 when it ended. Our two younger girls need their
sleep. Our son could go all night long without it. He went to bed at
midnight last night and woke up at 9:00 this morning. That's all he needs
and he constantly goes and never stops talking unless something on TV
catches his mind.
So I know what you are saying.
When it's bedtime for the kids, I usually hit the computer or watch TV with
my husband. But he goes to bed earlier than I as he gets up early. So our
alone time is pretty much slim at home. I usually stay up until 2:00 and
that's my time I need. I need to spend quiet time by myself. My husband and
I will grab time on the weekends by doing dinner and a movie or once in
awhile running off together to Target or something!!! I know it's hard but I
figure it will get better as the kids get older. My husband and I try hard
to make the time we have alone count. Sometimes just walking the dogs gives
us some good conversation time. We make sure we don't lose ourselves so when
the kids are all gone, we still recognize each other!!!
It works for us but I would say if a parent or a couple need more time, they
should take it. Not at the expense of their children, but to make time to
have to themselves. Just as some moms need time to get out alone, some
couples need time alone too. What the parents need I think is a big priority
as if they don'g get it, the kids will suffer. I think people here were just
saying not to send them to bed at 8:00 if they are no where near sleepy just
to be alone with them. It's a compromise.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Pam Hartley
----------
understand feeling like you'll jump out the window if you can't have five
minutes by yourself. :)
I do not have bedtimes for either of my children (very brief exception was
there was a time when both were afraid of being the "last one awake" even if
someone else was sleeping in the room with them. Since they could at that
point simply outlast me, we did all work it out here to have temporary
bedtime for all of us for a few months -- theirs being an hour before mine,
so I would be "last awake"), until they were no longer afraid to be the last
person awake in the household, then we gratefully reverted to "no bedtime".
At five and two, your children are sleeping longer hours than you are,
either in nap time or in actual stretch of time at night, or both. So if you
need 8 hours and they need 12 hours, you can get some "alone time" right
there (unless they are helpfully on different schedules entirely <g> I know
that happens, too!)
If that fails, you can and should hand them off to your husband a couple of
times per week the moment he walks in the door at night and have him take
them to the mall or any other safe indoor space, or stay home with them
while YOU go out or go take a bath or a nap or whatever you want. If
weekdays are too hectic for this, do it on a weekend. You may not get "time
to yourself" every day. It's not necessarily a reasonable goal at their
ages. But if you get time to yourself with some regularity it'll help. :)
My husband had a really, really hard time believing me when I told him that
our time as "just" Mommy and Daddy and not nearly often enough Husband and
Wife was a temporary thing while we had very young children, not permanent.
He was wrong, I was right, ha ha. <ggg> Now, with mine 7 and 5, it's a very
simple matter to tell them "Our door is going to be closed for awhile". If
they need something urgent, they can knock.
They will learn to play on their own. I was not sure what you meant about
the television: that they aren't interested in watching it, or that you
restrict it so they can't? If the latter, that's a whole nother control
topic beyond bedtimes, but I always enjoy that debate, too. ;)
Pam
>From: [email protected]First, I have just got beyond the stage of very-very-young-children and I
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2478
>Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 2:17 AM
>
> So please tell me again, do I understand you all correctly in saying that
> you do not take any time for you all. If you answer is yes you take time,
> whenever your kids do other things, I ask what if your kids aren't old
> enough to have their own interests, like mine??
understand feeling like you'll jump out the window if you can't have five
minutes by yourself. :)
I do not have bedtimes for either of my children (very brief exception was
there was a time when both were afraid of being the "last one awake" even if
someone else was sleeping in the room with them. Since they could at that
point simply outlast me, we did all work it out here to have temporary
bedtime for all of us for a few months -- theirs being an hour before mine,
so I would be "last awake"), until they were no longer afraid to be the last
person awake in the household, then we gratefully reverted to "no bedtime".
At five and two, your children are sleeping longer hours than you are,
either in nap time or in actual stretch of time at night, or both. So if you
need 8 hours and they need 12 hours, you can get some "alone time" right
there (unless they are helpfully on different schedules entirely <g> I know
that happens, too!)
If that fails, you can and should hand them off to your husband a couple of
times per week the moment he walks in the door at night and have him take
them to the mall or any other safe indoor space, or stay home with them
while YOU go out or go take a bath or a nap or whatever you want. If
weekdays are too hectic for this, do it on a weekend. You may not get "time
to yourself" every day. It's not necessarily a reasonable goal at their
ages. But if you get time to yourself with some regularity it'll help. :)
My husband had a really, really hard time believing me when I told him that
our time as "just" Mommy and Daddy and not nearly often enough Husband and
Wife was a temporary thing while we had very young children, not permanent.
He was wrong, I was right, ha ha. <ggg> Now, with mine 7 and 5, it's a very
simple matter to tell them "Our door is going to be closed for awhile". If
they need something urgent, they can knock.
They will learn to play on their own. I was not sure what you meant about
the television: that they aren't interested in watching it, or that you
restrict it so they can't? If the latter, that's a whole nother control
topic beyond bedtimes, but I always enjoy that debate, too. ;)
Pam
Kelli Traaseth
We are just getting to this age right now; ds 9, dd 8, dd 5. And it is quite challenging, they like to stay up until about 10:00. And I'm peetering out about 9:00, they are also very talkative. They know I've been with them all day so from 9 to 10 they are kind-of on their own. My husband then takes a more active role, they will read or play together. I have noticed that bed times are going alot more smoothly if we aren't rushing it. My husband and I also know that this time in our lives will end very soon. We will have lots of time together when the kids are grown. I do take my own time in the early a.m. (my yoga time) but I also feel like I have chosen to have children and take time for them also!
Take Care,
Kelli
Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
----------
understand feeling like you'll jump out the window if you can't have five
minutes by yourself. :)
I do not have bedtimes for either of my children (very brief exception was
there was a time when both were afraid of being the "last one awake" even if
someone else was sleeping in the room with them. Since they could at that
point simply outlast me, we did all work it out here to have temporary
bedtime for all of us for a few months -- theirs being an hour before mine,
so I would be "last awake"), until they were no longer afraid to be the last
person awake in the household, then we gratefully reverted to "no bedtime".
At five and two, your children are sleeping longer hours than you are,
either in nap time or in actual stretch of time at night, or both. So if you
need 8 hours and they need 12 hours, you can get some "alone time" right
there (unless they are helpfully on different schedules entirely <g> I know
that happens, too!)
If that fails, you can and should hand them off to your husband a couple of
times per week the moment he walks in the door at night and have him take
them to the mall or any other safe indoor space, or stay home with them
while YOU go out or go take a bath or a nap or whatever you want. If
weekdays are too hectic for this, do it on a weekend. You may not get "time
to yourself" every day. It's not necessarily a reasonable goal at their
ages. But if you get time to yourself with some regularity it'll help. :)
My husband had a really, really hard time believing me when I told him that
our time as "just" Mommy and Daddy and not nearly often enough Husband and
Wife was a temporary thing while we had very young children, not permanent.
He was wrong, I was right, ha ha. <ggg> Now, with mine 7 and 5, it's a very
simple matter to tell them "Our door is going to be closed for awhile". If
they need something urgent, they can knock.
They will learn to play on their own. I was not sure what you meant about
the television: that they aren't interested in watching it, or that you
restrict it so they can't? If the latter, that's a whole nother control
topic beyond bedtimes, but I always enjoy that debate, too. ;)
Pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Take Care,
Kelli
Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
----------
>From: [email protected]First, I have just got beyond the stage of very-very-young-children and I
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2478
>Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 2:17 AM
>
> So please tell me again, do I understand you all correctly in saying that
> you do not take any time for you all. If you answer is yes you take time,
> whenever your kids do other things, I ask what if your kids aren't old
> enough to have their own interests, like mine??
understand feeling like you'll jump out the window if you can't have five
minutes by yourself. :)
I do not have bedtimes for either of my children (very brief exception was
there was a time when both were afraid of being the "last one awake" even if
someone else was sleeping in the room with them. Since they could at that
point simply outlast me, we did all work it out here to have temporary
bedtime for all of us for a few months -- theirs being an hour before mine,
so I would be "last awake"), until they were no longer afraid to be the last
person awake in the household, then we gratefully reverted to "no bedtime".
At five and two, your children are sleeping longer hours than you are,
either in nap time or in actual stretch of time at night, or both. So if you
need 8 hours and they need 12 hours, you can get some "alone time" right
there (unless they are helpfully on different schedules entirely <g> I know
that happens, too!)
If that fails, you can and should hand them off to your husband a couple of
times per week the moment he walks in the door at night and have him take
them to the mall or any other safe indoor space, or stay home with them
while YOU go out or go take a bath or a nap or whatever you want. If
weekdays are too hectic for this, do it on a weekend. You may not get "time
to yourself" every day. It's not necessarily a reasonable goal at their
ages. But if you get time to yourself with some regularity it'll help. :)
My husband had a really, really hard time believing me when I told him that
our time as "just" Mommy and Daddy and not nearly often enough Husband and
Wife was a temporary thing while we had very young children, not permanent.
He was wrong, I was right, ha ha. <ggg> Now, with mine 7 and 5, it's a very
simple matter to tell them "Our door is going to be closed for awhile". If
they need something urgent, they can knock.
They will learn to play on their own. I was not sure what you meant about
the television: that they aren't interested in watching it, or that you
restrict it so they can't? If the latter, that's a whole nother control
topic beyond bedtimes, but I always enjoy that debate, too. ;)
Pam
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Dalene and Andy" <mactier@x> wrote:
yes you take time, whenever your kids do other things, I ask what if
your kids aren't old enough to have their own interests, like mine??<<
My kids are about the same ages as yours (they just turned 6 and 3 in
the last month). They only sleep about 9 hours a night, so getting my
own time alone when they're asleep is a lost cause in our house! I
blame DH's genetics, he only sleeps 5 hours a night.
But I also firmly believe in time to myself. In fact, it was part of
our "parenting contract" that I made with DH before getting pregnant.
I knew that I couldn't deal with parenting unless I got an hour or
two a day to myself to exercise, which is my way of recharging. So
our deal was that I get two hours to myself each day, regardless.
There are days when that doesn't work out - if he's swamped at work
or whatever, but those are few and far between. Some days when he's
real busy, I do a workout swap with another mom friend. The kids have
a playdate and first one, then the other of us goes out for a run or
whatever we want to do. In a 3 hour playdate, that means we each get
an hour and a half to ourselves and the kids have a blast. Sometimes
there will be several moms and we take turns, and we have done this
at parks, the beach, etc. I sometimes use the childcare at the gym so
I can do yoga, spinning, or other classes. Also, DH comes along when
I do triathlons (my main interest) and watches the kids, or else if
it is a local race, I just leave the kids at home for a few hours
while I go and do it. While I'm very much an attachment parent and
nursing mother, at the ages they're at now they're completely capable
of hanging out with dad for half a day here and there.
Last winter, I started writing a novel, and while I was doing that,
DH tried to give me an additional two hours a day to go out of the
house with my laptop and write. Yes, I married a peach of a guy! But
I'm also very firm about what my needs are and I make sure that he
respects them. There are times when it is tough, but I'm with the
kids the other 20 - 22 hours a day, I don't think it is too much to
ask to have 2 - 4 hours by myself to accomplish my own goals.
When my kids were younger, other creative ways I'd get "me" time
would be to go running with them in the jogging stroller or biking
with them in my bike trailer. Also, they napped when they were
younger, so that left some time for me. I would read books while
lying down and nursing too, or do my internet time while the littlest
was nursing. As they've gotten older, I've realized that I had to cut
way back on my internet time as it was sucking up a lot of my free
time. So I haven't posted on this list in probably close to a year,
and I only read it occasionally. Sometimes you have more free time
than you think, but if you don't keep clear priorities about what you
want to do with it, it gets frittered away. Creating or finding a
good group of friends that are also parents can also be a great way
to share child-watching duties and get free time either as an
individual, or as a couple. Utilizing grandparents and other people
in your life can help, if they're available.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> So please tell me again, do I understand you all correctly insaying that you do not take any time for you all. If you answer is
yes you take time, whenever your kids do other things, I ask what if
your kids aren't old enough to have their own interests, like mine??<<
My kids are about the same ages as yours (they just turned 6 and 3 in
the last month). They only sleep about 9 hours a night, so getting my
own time alone when they're asleep is a lost cause in our house! I
blame DH's genetics, he only sleeps 5 hours a night.
But I also firmly believe in time to myself. In fact, it was part of
our "parenting contract" that I made with DH before getting pregnant.
I knew that I couldn't deal with parenting unless I got an hour or
two a day to myself to exercise, which is my way of recharging. So
our deal was that I get two hours to myself each day, regardless.
There are days when that doesn't work out - if he's swamped at work
or whatever, but those are few and far between. Some days when he's
real busy, I do a workout swap with another mom friend. The kids have
a playdate and first one, then the other of us goes out for a run or
whatever we want to do. In a 3 hour playdate, that means we each get
an hour and a half to ourselves and the kids have a blast. Sometimes
there will be several moms and we take turns, and we have done this
at parks, the beach, etc. I sometimes use the childcare at the gym so
I can do yoga, spinning, or other classes. Also, DH comes along when
I do triathlons (my main interest) and watches the kids, or else if
it is a local race, I just leave the kids at home for a few hours
while I go and do it. While I'm very much an attachment parent and
nursing mother, at the ages they're at now they're completely capable
of hanging out with dad for half a day here and there.
Last winter, I started writing a novel, and while I was doing that,
DH tried to give me an additional two hours a day to go out of the
house with my laptop and write. Yes, I married a peach of a guy! But
I'm also very firm about what my needs are and I make sure that he
respects them. There are times when it is tough, but I'm with the
kids the other 20 - 22 hours a day, I don't think it is too much to
ask to have 2 - 4 hours by myself to accomplish my own goals.
When my kids were younger, other creative ways I'd get "me" time
would be to go running with them in the jogging stroller or biking
with them in my bike trailer. Also, they napped when they were
younger, so that left some time for me. I would read books while
lying down and nursing too, or do my internet time while the littlest
was nursing. As they've gotten older, I've realized that I had to cut
way back on my internet time as it was sucking up a lot of my free
time. So I haven't posted on this list in probably close to a year,
and I only read it occasionally. Sometimes you have more free time
than you think, but if you don't keep clear priorities about what you
want to do with it, it gets frittered away. Creating or finding a
good group of friends that are also parents can also be a great way
to share child-watching duties and get free time either as an
individual, or as a couple. Utilizing grandparents and other people
in your life can help, if they're available.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Deborah Lewis
*** Do I understand you all correctly in saying that you as the adult do
not have the right to claim any time to yourself??***
You do have the right to claim time for yourself. It's that you don't
necessarily have the right to control someone else's time in order to do
so.
Have your husband help you as someone else suggested. Find an older
neighborhood kid who would come and play with your little ones for a few
hours. Trade with other moms.
They're little for such a short time and getting bigger now and then big
forever.
I used to get up with my husband at two, when he left for work and stay
up, to have those few hours for myself, to read or dust or clean the tub
or just watch a movie I'd been wanting to see without having someone
shove a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the VCR.<g>
The down side to that is now I sleep four hours and I'm awake and that's
that, whether I like it or not. But there's still that alone time!
Dylan has never had a bed time, goes to bed when I do sometimes and
sometimes stays up to finish a movie or a drawing, or just because. He's
ten now and remembers those times he fell asleep on the piano bench or
under the table.<g>
When Dylan was four we took care of my little nephew for a year. He was
a year old when he came to us and was a special needs baby, who had to be
fed through a tube and needed to be on a monitor at night, etc. It was a
difficult time and his mom was a single parent with an older child and
simply burned out trying to do it all herself. I was much older, and had
the help of my husband and that makes all the difference.
Deb L
not have the right to claim any time to yourself??***
You do have the right to claim time for yourself. It's that you don't
necessarily have the right to control someone else's time in order to do
so.
Have your husband help you as someone else suggested. Find an older
neighborhood kid who would come and play with your little ones for a few
hours. Trade with other moms.
They're little for such a short time and getting bigger now and then big
forever.
I used to get up with my husband at two, when he left for work and stay
up, to have those few hours for myself, to read or dust or clean the tub
or just watch a movie I'd been wanting to see without having someone
shove a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the VCR.<g>
The down side to that is now I sleep four hours and I'm awake and that's
that, whether I like it or not. But there's still that alone time!
Dylan has never had a bed time, goes to bed when I do sometimes and
sometimes stays up to finish a movie or a drawing, or just because. He's
ten now and remembers those times he fell asleep on the piano bench or
under the table.<g>
When Dylan was four we took care of my little nephew for a year. He was
a year old when he came to us and was a special needs baby, who had to be
fed through a tube and needed to be on a monitor at night, etc. It was a
difficult time and his mom was a single parent with an older child and
simply burned out trying to do it all herself. I was much older, and had
the help of my husband and that makes all the difference.
Deb L
Peggy
Who could possibly decide in advance what kind of time they will have with
their young children? Some children need more of a parent's time and
commitment when young. I always look on it as, "You can pay now, or you can
pay (and pay and pay and pay) later." Both of my children were high need, but
I didn't really understand how or why until they were older than five. Now I
can look back and see what I didn't see before. Now I understand why some
things were so difficult. That's hard to do when you are right in the middle
of it.
The very same qualities that made them high need when babies are the qualities
that I value today: sensitivity, intelligence, awareness, curiosity,
creativity. The more that I see and hear and read about early childhood
experience, the more I am convinced that we help create mental weakness in our
children or even possible illness when we do not treat them sensitively and
responsibly and put their needs before our own. We are the adults. If we can't
wait for some idealized and scheduled "me time", no matter what is happening
to our children emotionally and physically, then maybe we weren't mature
enough to have children. Every child is different and I don't know which would
worry me less: the noisy child who lets the adults around him know when he is
not happy, or the "good" baby who has given up getting what he needs and sits
placid and undemanding in his playpen.
Young babies and children are a lot of work and take intense care and
commitment especially in their first vulnerable years. The things that they
learn in those early years, about trust and caring and being human, will last
them for the rest of their lives. Those lessons are NEVER forgotten, unlike
later lessons. The early years affect the later years of a child's life with
disproportionate influence; just because they are not verbal does not mean
they do not remember -- they remember with every fiber of their being. When
people tell parents that children are resilient and that they recover from
their experiences easily, they do so to make the *parent* feel good and to
ease the *parent's* guilt. When we feel guilty we need to examine our
conscience and change our attitudes and actions if we need to, not bury our
guilt under pleasant platitudes that contain key phrases like, "all parents"
and "kids get over it", and "everyone needs." I'm old enough to see have seen
way too many grown-up children who didn't get over it and suffer terribly from
not getting their early needs met because their parents were too needy
themselves. Stop the Cycle and create a life for your children that will equip
them to be responsible parents themselves. In other words, we need to get over
ourselves, and get on with acting as adults for our children. There is no job,
no accolade, no perk that will make us feel better in the future if we screw
up raising our children now.
As John Lennon said, "Life is what happens while you are busy making other
plans.
Peggy
Deborah wrote:
their young children? Some children need more of a parent's time and
commitment when young. I always look on it as, "You can pay now, or you can
pay (and pay and pay and pay) later." Both of my children were high need, but
I didn't really understand how or why until they were older than five. Now I
can look back and see what I didn't see before. Now I understand why some
things were so difficult. That's hard to do when you are right in the middle
of it.
The very same qualities that made them high need when babies are the qualities
that I value today: sensitivity, intelligence, awareness, curiosity,
creativity. The more that I see and hear and read about early childhood
experience, the more I am convinced that we help create mental weakness in our
children or even possible illness when we do not treat them sensitively and
responsibly and put their needs before our own. We are the adults. If we can't
wait for some idealized and scheduled "me time", no matter what is happening
to our children emotionally and physically, then maybe we weren't mature
enough to have children. Every child is different and I don't know which would
worry me less: the noisy child who lets the adults around him know when he is
not happy, or the "good" baby who has given up getting what he needs and sits
placid and undemanding in his playpen.
Young babies and children are a lot of work and take intense care and
commitment especially in their first vulnerable years. The things that they
learn in those early years, about trust and caring and being human, will last
them for the rest of their lives. Those lessons are NEVER forgotten, unlike
later lessons. The early years affect the later years of a child's life with
disproportionate influence; just because they are not verbal does not mean
they do not remember -- they remember with every fiber of their being. When
people tell parents that children are resilient and that they recover from
their experiences easily, they do so to make the *parent* feel good and to
ease the *parent's* guilt. When we feel guilty we need to examine our
conscience and change our attitudes and actions if we need to, not bury our
guilt under pleasant platitudes that contain key phrases like, "all parents"
and "kids get over it", and "everyone needs." I'm old enough to see have seen
way too many grown-up children who didn't get over it and suffer terribly from
not getting their early needs met because their parents were too needy
themselves. Stop the Cycle and create a life for your children that will equip
them to be responsible parents themselves. In other words, we need to get over
ourselves, and get on with acting as adults for our children. There is no job,
no accolade, no perk that will make us feel better in the future if we screw
up raising our children now.
As John Lennon said, "Life is what happens while you are busy making other
plans.
Peggy
Deborah wrote:
>
> *** Do I understand you all correctly in saying that you as the adult do
> not have the right to claim any time to yourself??***
>
> You do have the right to claim time for yourself. It's that you don't
> necessarily have the right to control someone else's time in order to do
> so.
>
> Have your husband help you as someone else suggested. Find an older
> neighborhood kid who would come and play with your little ones for a few
> hours. Trade with other moms.
>
> They're little for such a short time and getting bigger now and then big
> forever.
>
> I used to get up with my husband at two, when he left for work and stay
> up, to have those few hours for myself, to read or dust or clean the tub
> or just watch a movie I'd been wanting to see without having someone
> shove a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the VCR.<g>
>
> The down side to that is now I sleep four hours and I'm awake and that's
> that, whether I like it or not. But there's still that alone time!
>
> Dylan has never had a bed time, goes to bed when I do sometimes and
> sometimes stays up to finish a movie or a drawing, or just because. He's
> ten now and remembers those times he fell asleep on the piano bench or
> under the table.<g>
>
> When Dylan was four we took care of my little nephew for a year. He was
> a year old when he came to us and was a special needs baby, who had to be
> fed through a tube and needed to be on a monitor at night, etc. It was a
> difficult time and his mom was a single parent with an older child and
> simply burned out trying to do it all herself. I was much older, and had
> the help of my husband and that makes all the difference.
>
> Deb L
>
Deborah Lewis
Peggy, I liked your post very much and agree with you.
We have such a short time with our kids and the rest of our lives after
they're grown. I used to remind my husband he had thirty three years to
do what he wanted before Dylan was born and he'd have, (maybe<g>)
that much more after Dylan was grown.
And more than that we get no guarantees our kids will always be with us.
That we'll have them long enough to watch them grow up. No guarantees at
all that we get a tomorrow.
I feel sad when I hear women talk like they can only find fulfillment
away from their kids. That the best way to be a good parent is to put
themselves first. I don't agree with that, I think our children always
need to come first. I think there are ways for moms to get a few quiet
minutes to calm down, or think or just plain rest while their little ones
are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
little later or let dad play with them.
I didn't think these women were talking about getting away from their
kids, I assumed they were talking about getting a few moments alone to
pee, or eat or write a shopping list.<g>
Deb L
We have such a short time with our kids and the rest of our lives after
they're grown. I used to remind my husband he had thirty three years to
do what he wanted before Dylan was born and he'd have, (maybe<g>)
that much more after Dylan was grown.
And more than that we get no guarantees our kids will always be with us.
That we'll have them long enough to watch them grow up. No guarantees at
all that we get a tomorrow.
I feel sad when I hear women talk like they can only find fulfillment
away from their kids. That the best way to be a good parent is to put
themselves first. I don't agree with that, I think our children always
need to come first. I think there are ways for moms to get a few quiet
minutes to calm down, or think or just plain rest while their little ones
are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
little later or let dad play with them.
I didn't think these women were talking about getting away from their
kids, I assumed they were talking about getting a few moments alone to
pee, or eat or write a shopping list.<g>
Deb L
Myranda
Wait a minute, you mean to tell me it *is* possible to pee or eat alone?!?!?
Myranda <---- who hasn't had a hot meal since 1995 LOL
Peggy, I liked your post very much and agree with you.
We have such a short time with our kids and the rest of our lives after
they're grown. I used to remind my husband he had thirty three years to
do what he wanted before Dylan was born and he'd have, (maybe<g>)
that much more after Dylan was grown.
And more than that we get no guarantees our kids will always be with us.
That we'll have them long enough to watch them grow up. No guarantees at
all that we get a tomorrow.
I feel sad when I hear women talk like they can only find fulfillment
away from their kids. That the best way to be a good parent is to put
themselves first. I don't agree with that, I think our children always
need to come first. I think there are ways for moms to get a few quiet
minutes to calm down, or think or just plain rest while their little ones
are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
little later or let dad play with them.
I didn't think these women were talking about getting away from their
kids, I assumed they were talking about getting a few moments alone to
pee, or eat or write a shopping list.<g>
Deb L
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda <---- who hasn't had a hot meal since 1995 LOL
Peggy, I liked your post very much and agree with you.
We have such a short time with our kids and the rest of our lives after
they're grown. I used to remind my husband he had thirty three years to
do what he wanted before Dylan was born and he'd have, (maybe<g>)
that much more after Dylan was grown.
And more than that we get no guarantees our kids will always be with us.
That we'll have them long enough to watch them grow up. No guarantees at
all that we get a tomorrow.
I feel sad when I hear women talk like they can only find fulfillment
away from their kids. That the best way to be a good parent is to put
themselves first. I don't agree with that, I think our children always
need to come first. I think there are ways for moms to get a few quiet
minutes to calm down, or think or just plain rest while their little ones
are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
little later or let dad play with them.
I didn't think these women were talking about getting away from their
kids, I assumed they were talking about getting a few moments alone to
pee, or eat or write a shopping list.<g>
Deb L
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
Deborah Lewis wrote:
My point is, take the first few years easy on the kids -- harder on the
adults. It won't last forever and adults can either wait or get creative.
There is a real tension in being a partner, a mother, a woman. I don't know
that there is a solution that fits all three of those roles. I think as women,
with practice, we become more comfortable with balancing on that high wire.
But, to try to explain that to someone just starting out, new at the game?
What can one say that makes sense? The only answer is that there is no answer?
The best advice that anyone ever gave to me is: "You are the mother. You know
best in your heart, if something has to give don't let it be your child's
heart."
Peggy
>OK Deb, I do rant a bit when I get going. ;)
> Peggy, I liked your post very much and agree with you.
> We have such a short time with our kids and the rest of our lives after
> they're grown. I used to remind my husband he had thirty three years to
> do what he wanted before Dylan was born and he'd have, (maybe<g>)
> that much more after Dylan was grown.
>
> And more than that we get no guarantees our kids will always be with us.
> That we'll have them long enough to watch them grow up. No guarantees at
> all that we get a tomorrow.
>
> I feel sad when I hear women talk like they can only find fulfillment
> away from their kids. That the best way to be a good parent is to put
> themselves first. I don't agree with that, I think our children always
> need to come first. I think there are ways for moms to get a few quiet
> minutes to calm down, or think or just plain rest while their little ones
> are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
> bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
> little later or let dad play with them.
>
> I didn't think these women were talking about getting away from their
> kids, I assumed they were talking about getting a few moments alone to
> pee, or eat or write a shopping list.<g>
>
> Deb L
My point is, take the first few years easy on the kids -- harder on the
adults. It won't last forever and adults can either wait or get creative.
There is a real tension in being a partner, a mother, a woman. I don't know
that there is a solution that fits all three of those roles. I think as women,
with practice, we become more comfortable with balancing on that high wire.
But, to try to explain that to someone just starting out, new at the game?
What can one say that makes sense? The only answer is that there is no answer?
The best advice that anyone ever gave to me is: "You are the mother. You know
best in your heart, if something has to give don't let it be your child's
heart."
Peggy
Dalene and Andy
>>I feel sad when I hear women talk like they can only find fulfillmentaway from their kids. That the best way to be a good parent is to put
themselves first. I don't agree with that, I think our children always
need to come first.
I agree and I would think that is why most of us are here, because we do put our children first.
>>I think there are ways for moms to get a few quietminutes to calm down, or think or just plain rest while their little ones
are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
little later or let dad play with them.
I still have difficulty in understanding why bedtime is so wrong?? I do understand that it is a problem if you have a child kicking and screaming that wouldn't want to go to bed.
But I think we need to understand that everyone here have a different reality. Mine for example is two children in two different sleep pattern. My son gets up at 7:00 in the morning to see his Dad off before he goes to work. He goes to bed at 8: 30. My daughter on the other hand sometimes stays up until 10:30. I'm sorry to say if that makes me a bad mother, but by that time I'm all mothered out and I do need time to recharge myself. Why not stay up after she's gone to be or get up before her?? Because she likes cuddling up with me in bed, and usually wakes up to call me if I'm not there.
My son on the other hand, needs a certain number of hours sleep. If he doesn't get it, he will end up tearful and upset, because he gets overtired. To let him go there, seems cruel and irresponsible to me.
Time for me?? Why don't we do Playdates?? My son doesn't like staying at other people's houses. Babysitting?? He doesn't like it when other people look after him?? Daycare (even for an hour at the gym)?? An absolute no go, both for him and us. Kids coming over to play?? Sure we do, but that doesn't really entertain the two year old?? Why don't I just adapt to having young children?? I have. I have moved from needing several hours of solitude daily, to an hour or less on good days.
I really do like the unschooling approach and appreciate some of the TCS theories, but I do think there is a problem in saying, if you don't do it the way we do, you're being a bad parent.
TV for example. I know the unschooling approach is to let children make that decision themselves. I can see that to be a fair approach for older children, but I strongly believe younger children need our protection. Being responsible is as important as being loving. What do you do?? Just ignore all the research that points the negatives of TV?? I can not believe that it could be good for a five year old to watch adult programmes - violence, sex, bad language. I would not expose my child to any of that in day to day living, why would I let him see it on TV??
The same goes with social issues in later life - sex, porno, drugs?? Do we not protect our children from that or at least try to. And I do realise that the theory is that children should be trusted in the same way than adults not to do. But some are more curious than others.
I'm still confused.
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: "Darlene and Andy" <mactier@...><<But I think we need to understand that everyone here have a different
reality. Mine for example is two children in two different sleep pattern>>
Not sure what to tell you about this one Darlene. I am fortunate enough that
my kids all seem to be pretty much the same way when it comes to sleep. The
oldest (16) does as she pleases and that's fine by me. My two youngest girls
need more sleep than my son. They are 2 and 6. Generally we start heading
them to bed around 11:00. That's when both of them start to wind down and
yawn. There is never a problem with either one not wanting to sleep.
Sometimes, occasions arise when they are up later. They can wake anywhere
between 10 and 11 in the morning. My son says his goodnights when they do
but stays up. He's 7. He'll read or watch TV or do gameboy. Sometimes he
just comes and talks with us or has me read a book to him. My husband
sometimes goes to bed before he does. I stay up late and my son does along
with me. He usually winds down around 12 or 12:30. Sometimes earlier if he's
had a long day. He gets up anywhere between 8:00-9:15. He entertains himself
until he sees me as he enjoys his alone time too. As I said, I'm lucky. I
think as yours get older, you will settle in better with what works for all.
<<TV for example. I know the unschooling approach is to let children make
that decision themselves. I can see that to be a fair approach for older
children, but I strongly believe younger children need our protection. Being
responsible is as important as being loving. What do you do?? Just ignore
all the research that points the negatives of TV?? I can not believe that it
could be good for a five year old to watch adult programmes - violence,
sex, bad language. I would not expose my child to any of that in day to day
living, why would I let him see it on TV??>>
I'm kind of with you on this one to a certain extent. My oldest of course
now and for quite awhile has chosen what she wants to watch. My youngest has
no interest in TV what so ever so that's real easy for me! The two middle
ones, they watch what they want now. There are times when flipping through
channels, they see something that might make them uncomfortable and change
the station. Not sure what it is as I just hear my son tell his sister that
he thinks that's something they shouldn't be watching. I have never said to
them that they can't watch a certain show, with the exception of years ago,
saying no to The Simpsons. They might have been like 3 and 4 and naturally
saw cartoon and wanted to watch. After about 5 minutes, I didn't like what I
heard for them at that age and said no. Now as soon as they see it, they
change the channel. Haven't said a word since that one day years ago. I just
don't want them seeing and hearing that in a cartoon kid like venue. Some
movies that they mention they would like to see I screen first or use the
screen it site. Like Scorpion King for instance and The Mummy or one of
their favorites, the Tremors movies. The language doesn't bother me as they
know they are just words that they might here at the grocery store and that
they don't use them. The violence doesn't bother me if it's not coming from
a 'real' person. No Michael Meyers movies for them. They get scared. If it's
an animal or alien or something not real, like Starship Troopers, they are
fine. The sex I keep an eye on as my son gets very uncomfortable with it and
recently even hides his eyes from his 2 year old sister when she's naked. He
obviously is uncomfortable with it and I respect that. I'm sure it will
change as they get older and I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Mary B
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Dalene and Andy
MAry,
I think we are kind of in the same position - your young ones grt 11 -12 hours sleep, mine gets slightly less - head to bed at 8: 30. Usually sleeping by 9:00 and up by 7:00.
i think the problem with bed times would be if you expect them to spend more hours in bed, than what they need.
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think we are kind of in the same position - your young ones grt 11 -12 hours sleep, mine gets slightly less - head to bed at 8: 30. Usually sleeping by 9:00 and up by 7:00.
i think the problem with bed times would be if you expect them to spend more hours in bed, than what they need.
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
Dalene and Andy wrote:
sleep on a different schedule! It all evens out eventually. One thing that
really helped me understand was baby massage. I did it with both of my kids
and they were so different, right from the very start. One had a lot more
tension and kinetic energy to release before she could relax enough to go to
sleep. Knowing that helped me set the stage for her to relax. We did a quiet
time before bed. Just puzzles or reading, Turned down the lights and turned
off the TV. Quiet talk. Low key activities and then bed. I'd lay down with her
until she went to sleep and then get up and do what I wanted. Takes a little
more effort but I couldn't stand the whole idea of having to enforce a
bedtime and telling them to go to bed and stay there. That gets too punitive
and sometimes they just aren't ready.
I just kept telling myself it wasn't forever, and it wasn't. By the time they
both hit 5 or 6 years old it was a whole different deal.
The early years are really hard but they don't last forever.
Peggy
>And then it changes too, just when you get used to one way they decide to do
> MAry,
>
> I think we are kind of in the same position - your young ones grt 11 -12 hours sleep, mine gets slightly less - head to bed at 8: 30. Usually sleeping by 9:00 and up by 7:00.
>
> i think the problem with bed times would be if you expect them to spend more hours in bed, than what they need.
sleep on a different schedule! It all evens out eventually. One thing that
really helped me understand was baby massage. I did it with both of my kids
and they were so different, right from the very start. One had a lot more
tension and kinetic energy to release before she could relax enough to go to
sleep. Knowing that helped me set the stage for her to relax. We did a quiet
time before bed. Just puzzles or reading, Turned down the lights and turned
off the TV. Quiet talk. Low key activities and then bed. I'd lay down with her
until she went to sleep and then get up and do what I wanted. Takes a little
more effort but I couldn't stand the whole idea of having to enforce a
bedtime and telling them to go to bed and stay there. That gets too punitive
and sometimes they just aren't ready.
I just kept telling myself it wasn't forever, and it wasn't. By the time they
both hit 5 or 6 years old it was a whole different deal.
The early years are really hard but they don't last forever.
Peggy
Pam Hartley
> I still have difficulty in understanding why bedtime is so wrong??Because an enforced bedtime takes something that a child knows best himself
and/or needs to learn best for himself (when he is tired) and puts it in the
control of someone else. It forces him to ignore his own body rhythms, and
does nothing to encourage him to find them and react to them, instead of
dealing with an arbitrary time set for his mom's convenience.
> My son on the other hand, needs a certain number of hours sleep. If heEveryone needs a certain number of hours sleep. By helping your son to
> doesn't get it, he will end up tearful and upset, because he gets
> overtired. To let him go there, seems cruel and irresponsible to me.
recognize when he's tired, by encouraging him to rest if he is and offering
to help him if he needs help (cuddling, reading quiet stories to him,
whatever) you are paying attention and helping him learn to pay attention.
If he is cranky and overtired the next day, he will soon figure out why. You
can also help him recognize that, non-judgmentally ("Do you feel kind of
upset today? I get that way if I don't get enough sleep sometimes, so if you
want we can go lay down and read for awhile and see if some rest helps. If
that doesn't help, we'll try something else.")
Doing something along those lines is a far cry from an arbitrary bedtime. He
may need a certain number of hours sleep, but that doesn't mean he needs
them when you think he does, or that those hours won't change from day to
day or week to week.
>Why don't I just adapt toAnd you can't get an hour or less from your husband on some or most days?
> having young children?? I have. I have moved from needing several hours of
> solitude daily, to an hour or less on good days.
>Not one person said that. I'm sorry if your reaction to what people wrote is
> I really do like the unschooling approach and appreciate some of the TCS
> theories, but I do think there is a problem in saying, if you don't do it
> the way we do, you're being a bad parent.
to think that. I have no idea what kind of parent you are, except in very
small windows with what you write. As far as I know you are the greatest
parent ever to walk the planet and you make me look like Mommy Dearest. All
I can tell you is that I personally disagree with arbitrary bedtimes, and
why.
As I wrote before, you are under no compulsion to agree with me. I am under
no compulsion to agree with you. I do not get the desire people have to
hear, "Well, whatever you do is fine." Color me obtuse. :)
>You are suffering from a lack of trust (my opinion). A typical five year old
> TV for example. I know the unschooling approach is to let children make
> that decision themselves. I can see that to be a fair approach for older
> children, but I strongly believe younger children need our protection.
> Being responsible is as important as being loving. What do you do?? Just
> ignore all the research that points the negatives of TV?? I can not believe
> that it could be good for a five year old to watch adult programmes -
> violence, sex, bad language. I would not expose my child to any of that in
> day to day living, why would I let him see it on TV??
does not sit around channel flipping to find violence, sex and bad language.
They tune those things out and turn the channel or wander away. An observant
parent helps them find what they really want to watch instead.
I do just ignore all the research about TV. I'm not a Believer in every
study (or even most studies) that come down the pike. I have no idea what
conditions those studies were done in, what biases the "studiers" have. I do
know, from observing both my own children and some other families who have
no restrictions on television, what non-restriction looks like. I have not
ever seen a child with both unrestricted access to television *and* a parent
who paid attention and saw that options of other activities were always
open, consistently choose age-inappropriate television.
Of course, my view of what constitutes "sex and violence" may be far more
liberal than many. I don't think of "Friends" as sex and "Looney Toons" as
violence, but I know some do.
>The way I try to protect my children from things I think are harmful is to
> The same goes with social issues in later life - sex, porno, drugs?? Do we
> not protect our children from that or at least try to. And I do realise
> that the theory is that children should be trusted in the same way than
> adults not to do. But some are more curious than others.
be the kind of parent who they can trust, talk to, and not fear I will flip.
By giving them control now, while they are very young, I am helping them
learn how to control themselves and not rely on me or any other human
besides themselves to put on the brakes. In my opinion this is the best and
most important life skill I can help them to master, and it all starts with
me trusting them so they'll trust me. It's all physics and karma.
Pam
Deborah Lewis
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:08:45 +1300 "Dalene and Andy" <mactier@...>
writes:
tired this morning and may not make any sense.
(So, pretty much the same as usual.)
If we think about unschooling as natural learning then it has to
encompass all of life. If unschooling is just going to be letting our
children learn school subjects or academics naturally we're missing a
whole other part of human beings as natural learners.
If you're going to believe your child will read when he's ready and add
and subtract when he's ready and understand the periodic table and know
who the president is and all that good stuff when he's ready then why not
take the next step and believe he will learn to understand his own body's
needs and his own time tables naturally as well. If you don't think it's
right to impose a unit study about Joan of Arc on a kid then is it right
to impose a bed time?
It takes a whole lot of pondering to figure out why one person would have
the right to decide when another person must go to bed. Some people
think they know how much a kid should eat too, and when, instead of just
letting the kid decide. It's a whole other realm of parenting, thinking
beyond what everyone else has always done. It will either make you nuts
or it will make you the most amazing mom ever. But for certain, our real
consideration of our children's rights as human beings will make their
lives better.
There were really good posts by Joyce just recently regarding bedtime as
a power issue. I think that subject line was "the role of frustration".
She wrote amazing and wonderful things that I can't do justice to so if
you're interested read through some of those.
his dad at night and not feel like he needs to get up that early? I
don't know. I'm assuming he gets up on his own to see his dad and you're
not yanking him out of bed because you think he needs to see his dad.<g>
that you're there for your little one. But she really won't need you this
much forever. If there are times you can slip out of bed and leave her
sleeping take advantage of those.
lack of sleep. But he did come to understand it. When I knew he was
ready to sleep but didn't want to leave all the fun, I arranged a quiet
house. I turned down lights, turned down the TV. Got into my own pj's,
offered to read or lay down with him. It did take more effort on my part
then a bed time would have but he learned to trust his own signals about
his body's limits and he did it without ever feeling like he was being
treated unfairly.
Kids might not learn about their own body's limits right away. They
might not have it all figured out in a month or two months, but they do
get it figured out. We shouldn't place unnatural time tables on this
kind of learning any more than we should about reading or writing (man, I
just typed writhing there) or tying shoes or riding a bike. All learning
is personal and should be on the learners schedule, not on ours. And
the amount of time my son has needed to sleep has not been constant.
Just because it's nine hours now doesn't mean it will be nine hours a
month from now.
baby sitter, he never went to day care. I understand all that. I'm not
understanding why his dad couldn't take over the parenting thing in the
evenings for a few hours for you, so you could go for a walk or take a
shower or whatever. An older (teen aged) helper could be a good thing
too, to play with your kids in your own yard or house while you have an
hour to nap. It is hard being on demand for all the people who need us.
But the demands our children make don't maintain that same intensity
forever. It really doesn't last forever.
same way I ignore research that says spanking is ok, discipline is
necessary and school is good.
I don't think adult programing appeals to five year olds and when my
five year old wanted to watch TV I didn't make him sit through a blood
bath or a sex orgy. I let him find whatever it was that a five year old
wanted to watch. Letting a five year old make TV choices and watching
"Blood Sucking Freaks" while your five year old is in the room are not
the same thing.
Now, that said, my own son was in front of the TV on one occasion when a
movie ended and another started and sometime later I wandered by to see a
pretty graphic sex scene. I asked if he was watching it, and what it was
and he said it was just some lady having noisy sex. He had looked long
enough to see what it was but had found the legos more interesting than
all that skin. Kids really don't watch what isn't interesting to kids.
My son always made his own TV and movie choices and I've never known him
to watch anything disgusting.
he's going to have a lot of experience at making good ones. If he's
received the respect of his parents and can trust your advice to him is
not any kind of power play, he'll be much more inclined to respect what
you advise.
But if he never gets to learn and trust his own experiences about
sleeping and eating and choosing entertainment how will he be able to
make good choices about other things when you're not around?
Lots of parents have thought they could protect their children by
controlling them and have found they only pushed their kids away.
Deb L
writes:
> I still have difficulty in understanding why bedtime is so wrong?? II'll take a stab at this, but I'm making excuses right up front, I'm
> do understand that it is a problem if you have a child kicking and
> screaming that wouldn't want to go to bed.
tired this morning and may not make any sense.
(So, pretty much the same as usual.)
If we think about unschooling as natural learning then it has to
encompass all of life. If unschooling is just going to be letting our
children learn school subjects or academics naturally we're missing a
whole other part of human beings as natural learners.
If you're going to believe your child will read when he's ready and add
and subtract when he's ready and understand the periodic table and know
who the president is and all that good stuff when he's ready then why not
take the next step and believe he will learn to understand his own body's
needs and his own time tables naturally as well. If you don't think it's
right to impose a unit study about Joan of Arc on a kid then is it right
to impose a bed time?
It takes a whole lot of pondering to figure out why one person would have
the right to decide when another person must go to bed. Some people
think they know how much a kid should eat too, and when, instead of just
letting the kid decide. It's a whole other realm of parenting, thinking
beyond what everyone else has always done. It will either make you nuts
or it will make you the most amazing mom ever. But for certain, our real
consideration of our children's rights as human beings will make their
lives better.
There were really good posts by Joyce just recently regarding bedtime as
a power issue. I think that subject line was "the role of frustration".
She wrote amazing and wonderful things that I can't do justice to so if
you're interested read through some of those.
> My son gets up at 7:00 in the morning to see his DadI'm wondering if he didn't have a bed time would he have more time with
> off before he goes to work. He goes to bed at 8: 30.
his dad at night and not feel like he needs to get up that early? I
don't know. I'm assuming he gets up on his own to see his dad and you're
not yanking him out of bed because you think he needs to see his dad.<g>
>My daughter onI don't remember how old you said your kids were, I'm sorry. It's nice
> the other hand sometimes stays up until 10:30. I'm sorry to say if
> that makes me a bad mother, but by that time I'm all mothered out
> and I do need time to recharge myself. Why not stay up after she's
> gone to be or get up before her?? Because she likes cuddling up with
> me in bed, and usually wakes up to call me if I'm not there.
that you're there for your little one. But she really won't need you this
much forever. If there are times you can slip out of bed and leave her
sleeping take advantage of those.
> My son on the other hand, needs a certain number of hours sleep. IfIt took my son a while to understand the reason he sometimes felt bad was
> he doesn't get it, he will end up tearful and upset, because he gets
> overtired. To let him go there, seems cruel and irresponsible to
> me.
lack of sleep. But he did come to understand it. When I knew he was
ready to sleep but didn't want to leave all the fun, I arranged a quiet
house. I turned down lights, turned down the TV. Got into my own pj's,
offered to read or lay down with him. It did take more effort on my part
then a bed time would have but he learned to trust his own signals about
his body's limits and he did it without ever feeling like he was being
treated unfairly.
Kids might not learn about their own body's limits right away. They
might not have it all figured out in a month or two months, but they do
get it figured out. We shouldn't place unnatural time tables on this
kind of learning any more than we should about reading or writing (man, I
just typed writhing there) or tying shoes or riding a bike. All learning
is personal and should be on the learners schedule, not on ours. And
the amount of time my son has needed to sleep has not been constant.
Just because it's nine hours now doesn't mean it will be nine hours a
month from now.
> Time for me?? Why don't we do Playdates?? My son doesn't likeMy son never liked being at someone else's house either. He never had a
> staying at other people's houses. Babysitting?? He doesn't like it
> when other people look after him?? Daycare (even for an hour at the
> gym)?? An absolute no go, both for him and us. Kids coming over to
> play?? Sure we do, but that doesn't really entertain the two year
> old?? Why don't I just adapt to having young children?? I have. I
> have moved from needing several hours of solitude daily, to an hour
> or less on good days.
baby sitter, he never went to day care. I understand all that. I'm not
understanding why his dad couldn't take over the parenting thing in the
evenings for a few hours for you, so you could go for a walk or take a
shower or whatever. An older (teen aged) helper could be a good thing
too, to play with your kids in your own yard or house while you have an
hour to nap. It is hard being on demand for all the people who need us.
But the demands our children make don't maintain that same intensity
forever. It really doesn't last forever.
> I really do like the unschooling approach and appreciate some of theNobody said you were a bad parent.
> TCS theories, but I do think there is a problem in saying, if you
> don't do it the way we do, you're being a bad parent.
> TV for example. I know the unschooling approach is to let childrenI do ignore all the research that says TV is bad. All of it. In the
> make that decision themselves. I can see that to be a fair approach
> for older children, but I strongly believe younger children need our
> protection. Being responsible is as important as being loving. What
> do you do?? Just ignore all the research that points the negatives
> of TV?? I can not believe that it could be good for a five year old
> to watch adult programmes - violence, sex, bad language. I would not
> expose my child to any of that in day to day living, why would I let
> him see it on TV??
same way I ignore research that says spanking is ok, discipline is
necessary and school is good.
I don't think adult programing appeals to five year olds and when my
five year old wanted to watch TV I didn't make him sit through a blood
bath or a sex orgy. I let him find whatever it was that a five year old
wanted to watch. Letting a five year old make TV choices and watching
"Blood Sucking Freaks" while your five year old is in the room are not
the same thing.
Now, that said, my own son was in front of the TV on one occasion when a
movie ended and another started and sometime later I wandered by to see a
pretty graphic sex scene. I asked if he was watching it, and what it was
and he said it was just some lady having noisy sex. He had looked long
enough to see what it was but had found the legos more interesting than
all that skin. Kids really don't watch what isn't interesting to kids.
My son always made his own TV and movie choices and I've never known him
to watch anything disgusting.
> The same goes with social issues in later life - sex, porno, drugs??If you have a long history of letting your child make his own choices,
> Do we not protect our children from that or at least try to. And I
> do realise that the theory is that children should be trusted in the
> same way than adults not to do. But some are more curious than
> others.
he's going to have a lot of experience at making good ones. If he's
received the respect of his parents and can trust your advice to him is
not any kind of power play, he'll be much more inclined to respect what
you advise.
But if he never gets to learn and trust his own experiences about
sleeping and eating and choosing entertainment how will he be able to
make good choices about other things when you're not around?
Lots of parents have thought they could protect their children by
controlling them and have found they only pushed their kids away.
Deb L
Myranda
Here's my take on this, someone correct me if I'm wrong! <g> The idea is to guide, imposing restrictions if necessary, the children toward safe and healthful decisions while young, and gradually let go of the guidance and/or restrictions as they get older and better able to regulate themselves.
This kinda reminds me of clothes-shopping with the boys. While they were babies, I picked out all of their clothes. By age 12-18mths, I'd hold up two outfits and let them choose which one they wanted. At around age 2, I'd pick out a selection and let them choose what all they wanted out of it. By age 3, I'd let them wander around the department choosing things, but I'd have to select the correct size and if what they picked out was inappropriate I'd tell them so and we wouldn't get it. By age 4, they could pick out what they wanted and the correct size by looking at the color thing on the hanger, and I let them pick out a couple inappropriate things so they would learn what they needed and didn't need. And from age 5 and on, unless something was way out of our price range, they have picked out their own clothes 100%.
For TV, my boys can watch unlimited TV - but can only watch about 10 channels - Disney, Toon Disney, Nick, PBS, TLC, History, Travel, Home and Garden, Weather, and Sports. These channels are the only ones the TV will flip to, so there's never an issue about whether or not they can watch something. Anything else is watched only if me or Daddy is there to sit with them and talk about it. For movies, they can watch most G-rated anytime they want, but must have either me or Daddy there to watch anything over that. I do pre-watch a lot of movies for content - no one's asked about sex yet, and I don't want them getting it from a TV show or movie.
As for food, they can eat whenever they want, and usually get their pick of what they want for meals, but I have to limit sweet snacks to once a day. Same for drink, I set a limit of two cups of juice a day. We don't allow colas or things with a lot of food coloring or presertives for health reasons - so I simply don't bring those things into the house. I'm not going to have something available that they're not allowed to have. If it's not here, they never ask for it so it's not even an issue.
Computer game time is not limited, but we only keep maybe two games at any one time, so when they get tired of those they leave the computer by their own choice.
By limiting the choices you have in the house, children will find it easier to regulate themselves, and you can gradually add choices as they get better at it. If a child has 20 new computer games to play, they're not going to willingly leave the computer, no matter how tired they get of it. If they have unlimited TV channels to watch, they'll always be able to find something to keep them glued to the TV. If there are 4 different kinds of cola in the house, but no tea or juice or milk, guess what they're going to drink? By limiting choices available, you don't have to supervise and impose limits yourself half as often. This works for small children, but I have no idea how well it would work for older children. I'm sure it would work to a certain degree, though. But it would be much harder to take something away than it is to start out with little and gradually add to it like you can with younger children.
Myranda <--- just my .02
From: Dalene and Andy
I agree and I would think that is why most of us are here, because we do put our children first.
are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
little later or let dad play with them.
I still have difficulty in understanding why bedtime is so wrong?? I do understand that it is a problem if you have a child kicking and screaming that wouldn't want to go to bed.
But I think we need to understand that everyone here have a different reality. Mine for example is two children in two different sleep pattern. My son gets up at 7:00 in the morning to see his Dad off before he goes to work. He goes to bed at 8: 30. My daughter on the other hand sometimes stays up until 10:30. I'm sorry to say if that makes me a bad mother, but by that time I'm all mothered out and I do need time to recharge myself. Why not stay up after she's gone to be or get up before her?? Because she likes cuddling up with me in bed, and usually wakes up to call me if I'm not there.
My son on the other hand, needs a certain number of hours sleep. If he doesn't get it, he will end up tearful and upset, because he gets overtired. To let him go there, seems cruel and irresponsible to me.
Time for me?? Why don't we do Playdates?? My son doesn't like staying at other people's houses. Babysitting?? He doesn't like it when other people look after him?? Daycare (even for an hour at the gym)?? An absolute no go, both for him and us. Kids coming over to play?? Sure we do, but that doesn't really entertain the two year old?? Why don't I just adapt to having young children?? I have. I have moved from needing several hours of solitude daily, to an hour or less on good days.
I really do like the unschooling approach and appreciate some of the TCS theories, but I do think there is a problem in saying, if you don't do it the way we do, you're being a bad parent.
TV for example. I know the unschooling approach is to let children make that decision themselves. I can see that to be a fair approach for older children, but I strongly believe younger children need our protection. Being responsible is as important as being loving. What do you do?? Just ignore all the research that points the negatives of TV?? I can not believe that it could be good for a five year old to watch adult programmes - violence, sex, bad language. I would not expose my child to any of that in day to day living, why would I let him see it on TV??
The same goes with social issues in later life - sex, porno, drugs?? Do we not protect our children from that or at least try to. And I do realise that the theory is that children should be trusted in the same way than adults not to do. But some are more curious than others.
I'm still confused.
Dalene
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This kinda reminds me of clothes-shopping with the boys. While they were babies, I picked out all of their clothes. By age 12-18mths, I'd hold up two outfits and let them choose which one they wanted. At around age 2, I'd pick out a selection and let them choose what all they wanted out of it. By age 3, I'd let them wander around the department choosing things, but I'd have to select the correct size and if what they picked out was inappropriate I'd tell them so and we wouldn't get it. By age 4, they could pick out what they wanted and the correct size by looking at the color thing on the hanger, and I let them pick out a couple inappropriate things so they would learn what they needed and didn't need. And from age 5 and on, unless something was way out of our price range, they have picked out their own clothes 100%.
For TV, my boys can watch unlimited TV - but can only watch about 10 channels - Disney, Toon Disney, Nick, PBS, TLC, History, Travel, Home and Garden, Weather, and Sports. These channels are the only ones the TV will flip to, so there's never an issue about whether or not they can watch something. Anything else is watched only if me or Daddy is there to sit with them and talk about it. For movies, they can watch most G-rated anytime they want, but must have either me or Daddy there to watch anything over that. I do pre-watch a lot of movies for content - no one's asked about sex yet, and I don't want them getting it from a TV show or movie.
As for food, they can eat whenever they want, and usually get their pick of what they want for meals, but I have to limit sweet snacks to once a day. Same for drink, I set a limit of two cups of juice a day. We don't allow colas or things with a lot of food coloring or presertives for health reasons - so I simply don't bring those things into the house. I'm not going to have something available that they're not allowed to have. If it's not here, they never ask for it so it's not even an issue.
Computer game time is not limited, but we only keep maybe two games at any one time, so when they get tired of those they leave the computer by their own choice.
By limiting the choices you have in the house, children will find it easier to regulate themselves, and you can gradually add choices as they get better at it. If a child has 20 new computer games to play, they're not going to willingly leave the computer, no matter how tired they get of it. If they have unlimited TV channels to watch, they'll always be able to find something to keep them glued to the TV. If there are 4 different kinds of cola in the house, but no tea or juice or milk, guess what they're going to drink? By limiting choices available, you don't have to supervise and impose limits yourself half as often. This works for small children, but I have no idea how well it would work for older children. I'm sure it would work to a certain degree, though. But it would be much harder to take something away than it is to start out with little and gradually add to it like you can with younger children.
Myranda <--- just my .02
From: Dalene and Andy
I agree and I would think that is why most of us are here, because we do put our children first.
>>I think there are ways for moms to get a few quietminutes to calm down, or think or just plain rest while their little ones
are little and require a lot of energy and I don't think imposing a
bedtime is the best way to do it. Get up a little early, stay up a
little later or let dad play with them.
I still have difficulty in understanding why bedtime is so wrong?? I do understand that it is a problem if you have a child kicking and screaming that wouldn't want to go to bed.
But I think we need to understand that everyone here have a different reality. Mine for example is two children in two different sleep pattern. My son gets up at 7:00 in the morning to see his Dad off before he goes to work. He goes to bed at 8: 30. My daughter on the other hand sometimes stays up until 10:30. I'm sorry to say if that makes me a bad mother, but by that time I'm all mothered out and I do need time to recharge myself. Why not stay up after she's gone to be or get up before her?? Because she likes cuddling up with me in bed, and usually wakes up to call me if I'm not there.
My son on the other hand, needs a certain number of hours sleep. If he doesn't get it, he will end up tearful and upset, because he gets overtired. To let him go there, seems cruel and irresponsible to me.
Time for me?? Why don't we do Playdates?? My son doesn't like staying at other people's houses. Babysitting?? He doesn't like it when other people look after him?? Daycare (even for an hour at the gym)?? An absolute no go, both for him and us. Kids coming over to play?? Sure we do, but that doesn't really entertain the two year old?? Why don't I just adapt to having young children?? I have. I have moved from needing several hours of solitude daily, to an hour or less on good days.
I really do like the unschooling approach and appreciate some of the TCS theories, but I do think there is a problem in saying, if you don't do it the way we do, you're being a bad parent.
TV for example. I know the unschooling approach is to let children make that decision themselves. I can see that to be a fair approach for older children, but I strongly believe younger children need our protection. Being responsible is as important as being loving. What do you do?? Just ignore all the research that points the negatives of TV?? I can not believe that it could be good for a five year old to watch adult programmes - violence, sex, bad language. I would not expose my child to any of that in day to day living, why would I let him see it on TV??
The same goes with social issues in later life - sex, porno, drugs?? Do we not protect our children from that or at least try to. And I do realise that the theory is that children should be trusted in the same way than adults not to do. But some are more curious than others.
I'm still confused.
Dalene
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Mary Bianco
>From: Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@...><<I'll take a stab at this, but I'm making excuses right up front, I'm
tired this morning and may not make any sense.
(So, pretty much the same as usual.)>>
Well once again, I think you did an incredible job, tired or not!!!
Mary B
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Stephanie Elms
Hi Dalene! I am a little newer to some of the ideas being talked about
and when I first started reading I had many of the same concerns as you.
Don't know if my perspective will help, but I will try. :o) Actually
it probably will help me as I am still trying to digest things. My boys
are 5 and 2.
I am a pretty laid back when it comes to parenting. However, I have recently
been looking at areas in which I am more controlling. About a month ago
I removed all restrictions on tv and about 2 weeks ago I decided to
remove all restrictions on food. It has been interesting, but more on that
later. :o)
As far as bedtimes, I have never forced the boys to go to sleep without me (sounds
like you do not either). Kyle (2) is really easy, his dad walks and rocks him and he
is usually out by 8:30. With Jason (5), I have had to have much more creativity.
We have gone through lots of iterations, but right now we have an agreement that if he
is not ready to go to sleep after we get ready and read, then he can stay up with me
in my craft room (my hobby is rubber stamping). He plays quietly and we talk, but I get
to do my crafting. If he seems to be getting tired, I ask him if he is ready to go to
bed. Sometimes he says yes and other times he still wants to stay up. My goal is that
he will learn to trust his cues. Lately he has been really wanting to stay up late and
the next day is a bear. But I think that is part of the learning process. Jason can
be a very intense little boy, very extroverted, wanting to be played with all the time.
There have been some days when I have been totally worn out and asked Jason to stay in
his room (he did not have to go to sleep). I try not to do this too often because it is
not his favorite thing. I am trying to come up with other options for these days, but dh
is not as accommodating and has no problem with bedtimes.
have different ways and reasons for doing what they are doing. When I first started
reading here, I did take some things said personally, but as I think more and more
about it, I can see where they are coming from. It does take some time (at least
for me!) because it has meant rethinking a lot of concepts that I have taken as
givens. It was also hard for me, because I have had to admit that I *am* controlling
in many ways. And I had always prided myself on how relaxed I was as a mom...not many
rules (but still some). Most of my friends think that I am *too* relaxed, so to find
a bunch of folks that say that I can give up even *more* control shook me a little. But
from what I can tell, they are on to something! And it makes sense to me, deep down.
Which is why I am willing to give it a chance.
they watch and what they watch. This does not mean that I am turning on NYPD
Blue in the middle of the day and showing him. We have tivo, which means that we
can tape everything and he does not have to watch what is on at a particular time.
He likes Junkyard Wars, Bill Nye the Science Guy, Monster Garage, Liberty's Kids,
Emergency Vets and a few others. I have not seen him want to watch too many adult
shows. Back in sept, I had taped a few of the Sept 11th shows. Jason went into one
by accident (it was not what he was looking for). My initial impulse was to turn
it off immediately, but instead I told him what it was about and that it was going
to be pretty sad. He watched the plane go into the building (he had seen this once
or twice before last year) and decided that he did not want to watch and went on
to another show. If I had told him he couldn't watch, he might have tried to watch when
I was not around, merely because he was curious.
Jason tends to be sensitive to scary shows...he has watched cartoons at friends houses and
been scared (includes scooby doo and other cartoons with more "violence"). We have
talked about what scares him and if he wants to watch something that I think might scare
him, I let him know. He then makes the decision. Most times he is not interested in watching
I feel that this is very responsible and is helping him learn to make decisions for
what is right for him. Having "no restrictions" is not the same as exposing them to everything.
We usually do not watch the news (especially now as we live in Northern Va and the sniper
is on everywhere) when the boys are awake. They know that there is news but they have never
asked to watch it. It is the same with most adult shows (I have watched friends or Ed when
they were up).
As far as research...I was a big believer in the evils of tv. Made sense to me. Watching
tv *all* day long on a regular basis would not be a good thing in my opinion. I don't
want my kids to become couch potatoes or not be able to entertain themselves with
anything other then tv. However, what I have found since lifting the tv restrictions is
that although the tv is *on* more, that does not really mean that they are watching more.
Before, if I turned on the tv, Jason would sit glued, staring, doing nothing else. Now
he is definitely doing more things while the tv is on...playing cars, legos, board games
with me. He is also more likely to turn it off (I do ask sometimes because the noise starts
driving me crazy and sometimes he chooses to turn it off as well).
One thing that helped me take the plunge with tv is realizing that the studies were based
on kids in school who with school and homework only have a few hours of free time. So
spending 2 hrs or more watching tv would cut out a lot of other things they could
do with their free time. When hsing, our kids have lots more control over their
time. I realized that if Jason really choose to watch tv all day long, then I would
probably need to look at *why* there was nothing else that was more interesting to him.
Watching 2 hrs of tv (or even more) still leaves lots of time to do other things. I have
found that Jason watches more tv when he is tired or not feeling well. I don't think
that is a bad thing if he wants some downtime. I know that I could not keep up with
his pace! So some downtime can be good for him. And he still has lots of time to be
creative and we read a lot. One other thing that I have found since I lifted tv limits
is that I no longer have my ace in the hole when I want to get something done...I used
to be able to turn on the tv and they were glued...it doesn't work that way now!
that being open and talking about why these issues as they come up is more
effective then just forbidding it. A woman on my local hsing list recently
told of finding her 13 yo in a private chat she had been invited to by someone
on a Harry Potter chat. Instead of immediately restricting her internet access for
breaking a rule, the mom sat down with her. By asking some questions it soon became
apparent that this was not a kid and he was not real knowledgeable about HP. This
freaked the daughter out and taught her a heck of a lot more then any punishment
would have. Also gave the mom a little heads up to be a little more observant of
what her dd was doing on the computer.
I think that what people are saying here is that if you give more chances to make
decisions when they are younger, they will be more experienced and comfortable
with making the harder decisions when they are older. When you remove limits, you
are not saying "you are on your own, do what you want", you are giving them the freedom
to learn with your help. And by leaving it truly up to them, they are more likely
to listen to what you say. Removing restrictions on junk food does not mean that I
do not talk with them about healthy eating. It also does not mean that I go out and
buy only junk food. Jason has never had a twinkie before. I do not plan on introducing
them to him, but if he sees one in the store or has one at a friends house and asks
for one, I will buy them.
Not sure if this helps, but it has gotten long enough I think!
Stephanie E.
and when I first started reading I had many of the same concerns as you.
Don't know if my perspective will help, but I will try. :o) Actually
it probably will help me as I am still trying to digest things. My boys
are 5 and 2.
I am a pretty laid back when it comes to parenting. However, I have recently
been looking at areas in which I am more controlling. About a month ago
I removed all restrictions on tv and about 2 weeks ago I decided to
remove all restrictions on food. It has been interesting, but more on that
later. :o)
As far as bedtimes, I have never forced the boys to go to sleep without me (sounds
like you do not either). Kyle (2) is really easy, his dad walks and rocks him and he
is usually out by 8:30. With Jason (5), I have had to have much more creativity.
We have gone through lots of iterations, but right now we have an agreement that if he
is not ready to go to sleep after we get ready and read, then he can stay up with me
in my craft room (my hobby is rubber stamping). He plays quietly and we talk, but I get
to do my crafting. If he seems to be getting tired, I ask him if he is ready to go to
bed. Sometimes he says yes and other times he still wants to stay up. My goal is that
he will learn to trust his cues. Lately he has been really wanting to stay up late and
the next day is a bear. But I think that is part of the learning process. Jason can
be a very intense little boy, very extroverted, wanting to be played with all the time.
There have been some days when I have been totally worn out and asked Jason to stay in
his room (he did not have to go to sleep). I try not to do this too often because it is
not his favorite thing. I am trying to come up with other options for these days, but dh
is not as accommodating and has no problem with bedtimes.
> I really do like the unschooling approach and appreciate someI agree that people here are not saying that you are a bad parent. Just that they
> of the TCS theories, but I do think there is a problem in
> saying, if you don't do it the way we do, you're being a bad parent.
have different ways and reasons for doing what they are doing. When I first started
reading here, I did take some things said personally, but as I think more and more
about it, I can see where they are coming from. It does take some time (at least
for me!) because it has meant rethinking a lot of concepts that I have taken as
givens. It was also hard for me, because I have had to admit that I *am* controlling
in many ways. And I had always prided myself on how relaxed I was as a mom...not many
rules (but still some). Most of my friends think that I am *too* relaxed, so to find
a bunch of folks that say that I can give up even *more* control shook me a little. But
from what I can tell, they are on to something! And it makes sense to me, deep down.
Which is why I am willing to give it a chance.
>I have just lifted restrictions on tv about 4 weeks ago. They can choose how much
> TV for example. I know the unschooling approach is to let
> children make that decision themselves. I can see that to be
> a fair approach for older children, but I strongly believe
> younger children need our protection. Being responsible is as
> important as being loving. What do you do?? Just ignore all
> the research that points the negatives of TV?? I can not
> believe that it could be good for a five year old to watch
> adult programmes - violence, sex, bad language. I would not
> expose my child to any of that in day to day living, why
> would I let him see it on TV??
they watch and what they watch. This does not mean that I am turning on NYPD
Blue in the middle of the day and showing him. We have tivo, which means that we
can tape everything and he does not have to watch what is on at a particular time.
He likes Junkyard Wars, Bill Nye the Science Guy, Monster Garage, Liberty's Kids,
Emergency Vets and a few others. I have not seen him want to watch too many adult
shows. Back in sept, I had taped a few of the Sept 11th shows. Jason went into one
by accident (it was not what he was looking for). My initial impulse was to turn
it off immediately, but instead I told him what it was about and that it was going
to be pretty sad. He watched the plane go into the building (he had seen this once
or twice before last year) and decided that he did not want to watch and went on
to another show. If I had told him he couldn't watch, he might have tried to watch when
I was not around, merely because he was curious.
Jason tends to be sensitive to scary shows...he has watched cartoons at friends houses and
been scared (includes scooby doo and other cartoons with more "violence"). We have
talked about what scares him and if he wants to watch something that I think might scare
him, I let him know. He then makes the decision. Most times he is not interested in watching
I feel that this is very responsible and is helping him learn to make decisions for
what is right for him. Having "no restrictions" is not the same as exposing them to everything.
We usually do not watch the news (especially now as we live in Northern Va and the sniper
is on everywhere) when the boys are awake. They know that there is news but they have never
asked to watch it. It is the same with most adult shows (I have watched friends or Ed when
they were up).
As far as research...I was a big believer in the evils of tv. Made sense to me. Watching
tv *all* day long on a regular basis would not be a good thing in my opinion. I don't
want my kids to become couch potatoes or not be able to entertain themselves with
anything other then tv. However, what I have found since lifting the tv restrictions is
that although the tv is *on* more, that does not really mean that they are watching more.
Before, if I turned on the tv, Jason would sit glued, staring, doing nothing else. Now
he is definitely doing more things while the tv is on...playing cars, legos, board games
with me. He is also more likely to turn it off (I do ask sometimes because the noise starts
driving me crazy and sometimes he chooses to turn it off as well).
One thing that helped me take the plunge with tv is realizing that the studies were based
on kids in school who with school and homework only have a few hours of free time. So
spending 2 hrs or more watching tv would cut out a lot of other things they could
do with their free time. When hsing, our kids have lots more control over their
time. I realized that if Jason really choose to watch tv all day long, then I would
probably need to look at *why* there was nothing else that was more interesting to him.
Watching 2 hrs of tv (or even more) still leaves lots of time to do other things. I have
found that Jason watches more tv when he is tired or not feeling well. I don't think
that is a bad thing if he wants some downtime. I know that I could not keep up with
his pace! So some downtime can be good for him. And he still has lots of time to be
creative and we read a lot. One other thing that I have found since I lifted tv limits
is that I no longer have my ace in the hole when I want to get something done...I used
to be able to turn on the tv and they were glued...it doesn't work that way now!
> The same goes with social issues in later life - sex, porno,This is assuming that kids will always be drawn to the worst in life. I think
> drugs?? Do we not protect our children from that or at least
> try to. And I do realize that the theory is that children
> should be trusted in the same way than adults not to do. But
> some are more curious than others.
that being open and talking about why these issues as they come up is more
effective then just forbidding it. A woman on my local hsing list recently
told of finding her 13 yo in a private chat she had been invited to by someone
on a Harry Potter chat. Instead of immediately restricting her internet access for
breaking a rule, the mom sat down with her. By asking some questions it soon became
apparent that this was not a kid and he was not real knowledgeable about HP. This
freaked the daughter out and taught her a heck of a lot more then any punishment
would have. Also gave the mom a little heads up to be a little more observant of
what her dd was doing on the computer.
I think that what people are saying here is that if you give more chances to make
decisions when they are younger, they will be more experienced and comfortable
with making the harder decisions when they are older. When you remove limits, you
are not saying "you are on your own, do what you want", you are giving them the freedom
to learn with your help. And by leaving it truly up to them, they are more likely
to listen to what you say. Removing restrictions on junk food does not mean that I
do not talk with them about healthy eating. It also does not mean that I go out and
buy only junk food. Jason has never had a twinkie before. I do not plan on introducing
them to him, but if he sees one in the store or has one at a friends house and asks
for one, I will buy them.
Not sure if this helps, but it has gotten long enough I think!
Stephanie E.
Mary Bianco
>From: "Myranda" <myrandab@...><<Here's my take on this, someone correct me if I'm wrong! <g> The idea is
to guide, imposing restrictions if necessary, the children toward safe and
healthful decisions while young, and gradually let go of the guidance and/or
restrictions as they get older and better able to regulate themselves.>>
I disagree. Well you knew someone had to!!! I'm sure someone else will put
it better than I can but I'll take a try. I think imposing restrictions is
the key here. You are setting limits according to your standards of what is
appropriate. How do you know what those limits 'should' be for your child if
they never had the chance to experience for themselves? I think guiding your
child and imposing restrictions are totally different things. The way I
guide my children is by having lots of really neat stuff around for them to
play with. That goes from reference books to blocks. If I go out without
them and want to bring back new stuff, I guide by not bringing back sex
books but childrens books or even adult books that the kids would enjoy.
There will come a time when the sex books will come <BG> but not right now.
They are learning their sex stuff from the animals! That's the guiding I do.
Which some would say isn't really guiding at all. :p~~~~~ on them!!
<<By limiting the choices you have in the house, children will find it
easier to regulate themselves, and you can gradually add choices as they get
better at it. If a child has 20 new computer games to play, they're not
going to willingly leave the computer, no matter how tired they get of it.
If they have unlimited TV channels to watch, they'll always be able to find
something to keep them glued to the TV. If there are 4 different kinds of
cola in the house, but no tea or juice or milk, guess what they're going to
drink? By limiting choices available, you don't have to supervise and impose
limits yourself half as often. This works for small children, but I have no
idea how well it would work for older children. I'm sure it would work to a
certain degree, though. But it would be much harder to take something away
than it is to start out with little and gradually add to it like you can
with younger children.>>
I totally disagree again. I think children can find their limits and know
them by still being able to have unlimited access to them. From very little,
we've always had all kinds of things to drink in this house. We are not soda
drinkers but I have it here sometimes for others. There has been beer,
gatorade, water, milk, juice you name it. My oldest only drinks ice tea and
water. My son only drinks chocolate milk and water at sports camp only. My
daughter only drinks water with an occasional soda out somewhere. My baby
only choc. milk and water. Why did they choose those when we always had so
much more for them to choose from? They know what they like. How could I
without them trying? Your statement about only having soda in the house is
accurate. If there is only soda there, what is their choice? But to provide
more, you are assuming that the child will always make the wrong choice.
You said the same with the computer and TV. My kids have a zillion channels
to choose from and plenty of video games and gameboy and computer games too.
They do not sit in front of the TV/gameboy/computer all day long. Not for
long at all in fact. They also have a very wide array of foods to choose
from and are always allowed to try whatever new they want to from the
grocery store. With no fear of not liking it and me being mad or of them
liking it and me not allowing it anymore. I never see them excessively
eating anything. I did have to watch my little one with chocolate, only
because too much gave her diarrhea and I know that from experience. If I
never let her, I would have never known and not known now that she is pretty
much over that stage of me having to watch. I guess it was a baby thing.
You use words like guide, supervise, impose and restrictions altogether and
I see those as words that don't all mean the same thing let alone connect
together. I just don't see how starting out with little is giving your child
the chance to experience and find out for themselves what they like. I also
don't see it as trusting your child before they even get a chance to make
the right choices. You are assuming bad things by unlimiting. Not so.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Myranda
From: Mary Bianco
I disagree. Well you knew someone had to!!! I'm sure someone else will put
it better than I can but I'll take a try. I think imposing restrictions is
the key here. You are setting limits according to your standards of what is
appropriate. How do you know what those limits 'should' be for your child if
they never had the chance to experience for themselves? I think guiding your
child and imposing restrictions are totally different things. The way I
guide my children is by having lots of really neat stuff around for them to
play with. That goes from reference books to blocks. If I go out without
them and want to bring back new stuff, I guide by not bringing back sex
books but childrens books or even adult books that the kids would enjoy.
There will come a time when the sex books will come <BG> but not right now.
They are learning their sex stuff from the animals! That's the guiding I do.
Which some would say isn't really guiding at all. :p~~~~~ on them!!
** Of course someone (probably several someones) have to disagree! LOL By imposing restrictions, I'm talking about not letting a 3 yr old watch HBO movies, not allowing a 6 yr old with a sugar-sensitivity problem eat unlimited sweets, etc. See, I started out with NO restrictions whatever (besides ones of safety like no running in parking lots, no wandering off in stores, etc). I learned that I had to add some restrictions when my sugar-sensitive son would literally crave more and more sugar every time he got a bit, and he would become impossible to live with and miserable himself. After a year of trying to get him to self-regulate, I had to impose the rule of one sweet per day. We've all been much happier since. I've also done a lot of research into what a lot of artificial ingrediants can do to a person, and feel that it's my duty to protect my children from too much of those things if they do not do it themselves.
I totally disagree again. I think children can find their limits and know
them by still being able to have unlimited access to them. From very little,
we've always had all kinds of things to drink in this house. We are not soda
drinkers but I have it here sometimes for others. There has been beer,
gatorade, water, milk, juice you name it. My oldest only drinks ice tea and
water. My son only drinks chocolate milk and water at sports camp only. My
daughter only drinks water with an occasional soda out somewhere. My baby
only choc. milk and water. Why did they choose those when we always had so
much more for them to choose from? They know what they like. How could I
without them trying? Your statement about only having soda in the house is
accurate. If there is only soda there, what is their choice? But to provide
more, you are assuming that the child will always make the wrong choice.
** See, I could not handle my children only drinking milk. IMO, milk, that comes from the grocery store, has way too many hormones and other things in it for it to be safe for a child to drink more than a cup or so each day. That falls into a safety thing for me. I cannot watch my children do things that could harm their health in the name of freedom. When they are old enough to understand what their choices can mean for their bodies, then it will be completely their choice. Ice Tea is not a choice I'd be comfortable with all the time either - not regular tea, anyway. Now the natural kinds from health food stores, I'd be fine with.
You said the same with the computer and TV. My kids have a zillion channels
to choose from and plenty of video games and gameboy and computer games too.
They do not sit in front of the TV/gameboy/computer all day long. Not for
long at all in fact. They also have a very wide array of foods to choose
from and are always allowed to try whatever new they want to from the
grocery store. With no fear of not liking it and me being mad or of them
liking it and me not allowing it anymore. I never see them excessively
eating anything. I did have to watch my little one with chocolate, only
because too much gave her diarrhea and I know that from experience. If I
never let her, I would have never known and not known now that she is pretty
much over that stage of me having to watch. I guess it was a baby thing.
** See, my children got to where they'd do the "zoning out" thing with a lot of channels, games, etc to choose from and would not do anything else. I gave it about a year to see if it was something they'd outgrow, and they didn't. So I packed up most of the games, and restricted the TV channels. Poof - instant activity in the house! Board games being played, wanting to build things, wanting to go outside, all these things they hadn't done in months and months. They were happier too!
You use words like guide, supervise, impose and restrictions altogether and
I see those as words that don't all mean the same thing let alone connect
together. I just don't see how starting out with little is giving your child
the chance to experience and find out for themselves what they like. I also
don't see it as trusting your child before they even get a chance to make
the right choices. You are assuming bad things by unlimiting. Not so.
** No, the words don't all mean the same thing. Guiding is what you need to do while they are too young to make decisions on their own. Supervise is what you need to do so you'll know what's going on. Imposing restrictions is what should be done if they are doing something harmful to themselves or others and are not willing or able to self-regulate. Mine did have the chance to make the choices first, but when all they chose was the "bad" stuff, I imposed some limits. I'm of the opinion that since they were around my parents a lot, and heard a lot about what they could and couldn't do over there, what they should and shouldn't say, do, etc that they chose to do nothing but those things at home. Maybe I'm wrong there, but it does seem like it. They do experience new and different things, usually outside of the house, and if it's not bad for their health, and if they like it, we'll then bring it into the house. Our house is so full of things they like and enjoy now, we're gonna have to get some of it out before too many more new things can come in!!!
Myranda
Mary B
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I disagree. Well you knew someone had to!!! I'm sure someone else will put
it better than I can but I'll take a try. I think imposing restrictions is
the key here. You are setting limits according to your standards of what is
appropriate. How do you know what those limits 'should' be for your child if
they never had the chance to experience for themselves? I think guiding your
child and imposing restrictions are totally different things. The way I
guide my children is by having lots of really neat stuff around for them to
play with. That goes from reference books to blocks. If I go out without
them and want to bring back new stuff, I guide by not bringing back sex
books but childrens books or even adult books that the kids would enjoy.
There will come a time when the sex books will come <BG> but not right now.
They are learning their sex stuff from the animals! That's the guiding I do.
Which some would say isn't really guiding at all. :p~~~~~ on them!!
** Of course someone (probably several someones) have to disagree! LOL By imposing restrictions, I'm talking about not letting a 3 yr old watch HBO movies, not allowing a 6 yr old with a sugar-sensitivity problem eat unlimited sweets, etc. See, I started out with NO restrictions whatever (besides ones of safety like no running in parking lots, no wandering off in stores, etc). I learned that I had to add some restrictions when my sugar-sensitive son would literally crave more and more sugar every time he got a bit, and he would become impossible to live with and miserable himself. After a year of trying to get him to self-regulate, I had to impose the rule of one sweet per day. We've all been much happier since. I've also done a lot of research into what a lot of artificial ingrediants can do to a person, and feel that it's my duty to protect my children from too much of those things if they do not do it themselves.
I totally disagree again. I think children can find their limits and know
them by still being able to have unlimited access to them. From very little,
we've always had all kinds of things to drink in this house. We are not soda
drinkers but I have it here sometimes for others. There has been beer,
gatorade, water, milk, juice you name it. My oldest only drinks ice tea and
water. My son only drinks chocolate milk and water at sports camp only. My
daughter only drinks water with an occasional soda out somewhere. My baby
only choc. milk and water. Why did they choose those when we always had so
much more for them to choose from? They know what they like. How could I
without them trying? Your statement about only having soda in the house is
accurate. If there is only soda there, what is their choice? But to provide
more, you are assuming that the child will always make the wrong choice.
** See, I could not handle my children only drinking milk. IMO, milk, that comes from the grocery store, has way too many hormones and other things in it for it to be safe for a child to drink more than a cup or so each day. That falls into a safety thing for me. I cannot watch my children do things that could harm their health in the name of freedom. When they are old enough to understand what their choices can mean for their bodies, then it will be completely their choice. Ice Tea is not a choice I'd be comfortable with all the time either - not regular tea, anyway. Now the natural kinds from health food stores, I'd be fine with.
You said the same with the computer and TV. My kids have a zillion channels
to choose from and plenty of video games and gameboy and computer games too.
They do not sit in front of the TV/gameboy/computer all day long. Not for
long at all in fact. They also have a very wide array of foods to choose
from and are always allowed to try whatever new they want to from the
grocery store. With no fear of not liking it and me being mad or of them
liking it and me not allowing it anymore. I never see them excessively
eating anything. I did have to watch my little one with chocolate, only
because too much gave her diarrhea and I know that from experience. If I
never let her, I would have never known and not known now that she is pretty
much over that stage of me having to watch. I guess it was a baby thing.
** See, my children got to where they'd do the "zoning out" thing with a lot of channels, games, etc to choose from and would not do anything else. I gave it about a year to see if it was something they'd outgrow, and they didn't. So I packed up most of the games, and restricted the TV channels. Poof - instant activity in the house! Board games being played, wanting to build things, wanting to go outside, all these things they hadn't done in months and months. They were happier too!
You use words like guide, supervise, impose and restrictions altogether and
I see those as words that don't all mean the same thing let alone connect
together. I just don't see how starting out with little is giving your child
the chance to experience and find out for themselves what they like. I also
don't see it as trusting your child before they even get a chance to make
the right choices. You are assuming bad things by unlimiting. Not so.
** No, the words don't all mean the same thing. Guiding is what you need to do while they are too young to make decisions on their own. Supervise is what you need to do so you'll know what's going on. Imposing restrictions is what should be done if they are doing something harmful to themselves or others and are not willing or able to self-regulate. Mine did have the chance to make the choices first, but when all they chose was the "bad" stuff, I imposed some limits. I'm of the opinion that since they were around my parents a lot, and heard a lot about what they could and couldn't do over there, what they should and shouldn't say, do, etc that they chose to do nothing but those things at home. Maybe I'm wrong there, but it does seem like it. They do experience new and different things, usually outside of the house, and if it's not bad for their health, and if they like it, we'll then bring it into the house. Our house is so full of things they like and enjoy now, we're gonna have to get some of it out before too many more new things can come in!!!
Myranda
Mary B
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> > My son gets up at 7:00 in the morning to see his DadMy dh used to get up and have breakfast with his dad who got up really
> > off before he goes to work. He goes to bed at 8: 30.
>
> I'm wondering if he didn't have a bed time would he have more time with
> his dad at night and not feel like he needs to get up that early? I
> don't know. I'm assuming he gets up on his own to see his dad and you're
> not yanking him out of bed because you think he needs to see his dad.<g>
early, like 5 am, to go logging. Then he'd go back to bed. Maybe this boy
would end up doing something similar if he stayed up later.
Tia
Pam Hartley
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Myranda" <myrandab@b...>
wrote:
children toward safe and healthful decisions while young, and
gradually let go of the guidance and/or restrictions as they get
older and better able to regulate themselves.
:::big snip:::
choices as they get better at it. If a child has 20 new computer
games to play, they're not going to willingly leave the computer,
no matter how tired they get of it. If they have unlimited TV
channels to watch, they'll always be able to find something to
keep them glued to the TV. If there are 4 different kinds of cola in
the house, but no tea or juice or milk, guess what they're going to
drink? By limiting choices available, you don't have to supervise
and impose limits yourself half as often. This works for small
children, but I have no idea how well it would work for older
children. I'm sure it would work to a certain degree, though. But it
would be much harder to take something away than it is to start
out with little and gradually add to it like you can with younger
children.
We don't limit.
We don't limit TV to 10 channels, but they are not glued to the TV.
We don't limit sweets to once per day, but they don't over-eat on
sweets or under-eat on other foods.
Pam
wrote:
> Here's my take on this, someone correct me if I'm wrong! <g>The idea is to guide, imposing restrictions if necessary, the
children toward safe and healthful decisions while young, and
gradually let go of the guidance and/or restrictions as they get
older and better able to regulate themselves.
:::big snip:::
> By limiting the choices you have in the house, children will findit easier to regulate themselves, and you can gradually add
choices as they get better at it. If a child has 20 new computer
games to play, they're not going to willingly leave the computer,
no matter how tired they get of it. If they have unlimited TV
channels to watch, they'll always be able to find something to
keep them glued to the TV. If there are 4 different kinds of cola in
the house, but no tea or juice or milk, guess what they're going to
drink? By limiting choices available, you don't have to supervise
and impose limits yourself half as often. This works for small
children, but I have no idea how well it would work for older
children. I'm sure it would work to a certain degree, though. But it
would be much harder to take something away than it is to start
out with little and gradually add to it like you can with younger
children.
We don't limit.
We don't limit TV to 10 channels, but they are not glued to the TV.
We don't limit sweets to once per day, but they don't over-eat on
sweets or under-eat on other foods.
Pam
Pam Hartley
>>No, the words don't all mean the same thing. Guiding is whatyou need to
do while they are too young to make decisions on their own.
Supervise is what
you need to do so you'll know what's going on. Imposing
restrictions is what
should be done if they are doing something harmful to
themselves or others and
>are not willing or able to self-regulate.But you see, "I" don't need to do any of this, so saying "you need"
is not relevant for my real life. You also don't know what the
poster you were talking to "needs".
You might feel that you need to do these things, but in that case
you might say, "I need".
>Mine did have the chance to make thechoices first, but when all they chose was the "bad" stuff, I
imposed some
limits. I'm of the opinion that since they were around my parents
a lot, and
heard a lot about what they could and couldn't do over there,
what they should
and shouldn't say, do, etc that they chose to do nothing but those
things at
>>home. Maybe I'm wrong there, but it does seem like it.Maybe you should not have them at your parents a lot and see
what decisions they would make for themselves with actual
freedom now, instead of the sometimes-freedom they got then.
I am interested in my chldren's complete health - mental,
physical, emotional. I have seen claims of "health" to excuse
control before (he's not healthy if he eats too much chocolate or
drinks too much milk or watches too much TV or doesn't go to
sleep by 8:30). I don't believe children are intentionally self-
destructive. I don't believe that children are incapable of
understanding what excess sugar or lack of sleep or lack of
exercise feels like, and how to avoid those feelings. They might
not "get it" as quickly as Mom would like, but I believe they will get
it.
I trust my children. I am not looking for reasons to control them,
so it turns out they are able and willing to control themselves.
That may be the difference in success or not in "no limits".
Pam
Myranda
From: Pam Hartley
But you see, "I" don't need to do any of this, so saying "you need"
is not relevant for my real life. You also don't know what the
poster you were talking to "needs".
You might feel that you need to do these things, but in that case
you might say, "I need".
** You're saying that if your children were doing something that could harm them, you wouldn't step in and restrict them from doing whatever it is? I assumed all parents would, if not, then yes, that should be an "I need".
Maybe you should not have them at your parents a lot and see
what decisions they would make for themselves with actual
freedom now, instead of the sometimes-freedom they got then.
** They're not around them much at all anymore, Just Sunday mornings for church and lunch afterwards, but for three years we were there daily because of my work-at-home job. My mom had the room for a complete office to be set-up, including multiple phone lines and multiple computers, fax, phones, etc. She had a lot of rules, etc, that they had to follow since they were in her house. They learned that mommy and nana had very different beliefs and expectations, and they very often tended to do only what nana wouldn't allow when we were at home. Three years of that is a hard habit to break, I would think.
I am interested in my chldren's complete health - mental,
physical, emotional. I have seen claims of "health" to excuse
control before (he's not healthy if he eats too much chocolate or
drinks too much milk or watches too much TV or doesn't go to
sleep by 8:30). I don't believe children are intentionally self-
destructive. I don't believe that children are incapable of
understanding what excess sugar or lack of sleep or lack of
exercise feels like, and how to avoid those feelings. They might
not "get it" as quickly as Mom would like, but I believe they will get
it.
** I agree, but how to make a 5 yr old understand that he can only have one of these cookies every now and then because they have aspertine (sp?) in them, but he can have these other cookies all he wants because they only have brown sugar? I would think it would be much easier all around to only keep the cookies with brown sugar in the house until he gets a few years older and can understand the things aspertine can do to him. It's not a matter of being self-destructive, it's a matter of understanding and comprehending. We also have a very large and long history of allergies in the family, by keeping away or limiting from certain foods (peanuts, milk, wheat, etc) I'm hoping to help them avoid many of the allergies so common in my family. It's been proven the later you introduce common allergy-foods, and the smaller the quantity after introducing them, the risk of developing an allergy to it decreases by a huge amount.
I trust my children. I am not looking for reasons to control them,
so it turns out they are able and willing to control themselves.
That may be the difference in success or not in "no limits".
Pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But you see, "I" don't need to do any of this, so saying "you need"
is not relevant for my real life. You also don't know what the
poster you were talking to "needs".
You might feel that you need to do these things, but in that case
you might say, "I need".
** You're saying that if your children were doing something that could harm them, you wouldn't step in and restrict them from doing whatever it is? I assumed all parents would, if not, then yes, that should be an "I need".
Maybe you should not have them at your parents a lot and see
what decisions they would make for themselves with actual
freedom now, instead of the sometimes-freedom they got then.
** They're not around them much at all anymore, Just Sunday mornings for church and lunch afterwards, but for three years we were there daily because of my work-at-home job. My mom had the room for a complete office to be set-up, including multiple phone lines and multiple computers, fax, phones, etc. She had a lot of rules, etc, that they had to follow since they were in her house. They learned that mommy and nana had very different beliefs and expectations, and they very often tended to do only what nana wouldn't allow when we were at home. Three years of that is a hard habit to break, I would think.
I am interested in my chldren's complete health - mental,
physical, emotional. I have seen claims of "health" to excuse
control before (he's not healthy if he eats too much chocolate or
drinks too much milk or watches too much TV or doesn't go to
sleep by 8:30). I don't believe children are intentionally self-
destructive. I don't believe that children are incapable of
understanding what excess sugar or lack of sleep or lack of
exercise feels like, and how to avoid those feelings. They might
not "get it" as quickly as Mom would like, but I believe they will get
it.
** I agree, but how to make a 5 yr old understand that he can only have one of these cookies every now and then because they have aspertine (sp?) in them, but he can have these other cookies all he wants because they only have brown sugar? I would think it would be much easier all around to only keep the cookies with brown sugar in the house until he gets a few years older and can understand the things aspertine can do to him. It's not a matter of being self-destructive, it's a matter of understanding and comprehending. We also have a very large and long history of allergies in the family, by keeping away or limiting from certain foods (peanuts, milk, wheat, etc) I'm hoping to help them avoid many of the allergies so common in my family. It's been proven the later you introduce common allergy-foods, and the smaller the quantity after introducing them, the risk of developing an allergy to it decreases by a huge amount.
I trust my children. I am not looking for reasons to control them,
so it turns out they are able and willing to control themselves.
That may be the difference in success or not in "no limits".
Pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
Pam wrote:
You know today it is about food, soft drinks, TV. In the fifties it was about
food, soft drinks and germs. Mothers are still concerned about the same
things, they want the best for their children and they don't know the harm
they can cause by not letting their children learn for themselves. There is no
substitute for experience when learning to make good choices. We can make our
children anxious and nervous and fearful but we cannot teach them to make good
choices by making the choices for them -- they have to learn by personal
experience.
Peggy
> I trust my children. I am not looking for reasons to control them,Hear! Hear!
> so it turns out they are able and willing to control themselves.
> That may be the difference in success or not in "no limits".
You know today it is about food, soft drinks, TV. In the fifties it was about
food, soft drinks and germs. Mothers are still concerned about the same
things, they want the best for their children and they don't know the harm
they can cause by not letting their children learn for themselves. There is no
substitute for experience when learning to make good choices. We can make our
children anxious and nervous and fearful but we cannot teach them to make good
choices by making the choices for them -- they have to learn by personal
experience.
Peggy
Myranda
Keep in mind that the effects of certain foods and ingrediants do not present themselves until adulthood - how can young children learn in those cases? How do you later explain that "I'm sorry, one possible cause of your (insert health problem here) is because I let you have (insert food or ingrediant here) any time you wanted because that's what you wanted and I trusted you to know what is best"? Small comfort to a 10 yr old going thru numerous shots for allergy testing or a teenager having kidney stones or a grown child going thru chemo for cancer or any other numerous medical proceedures. I would encourage all parents to do more research into what the dangers are in certain foods, and what the benefits are in other foods. This is one area that by the time a child gets old enough and aware enough to want to look into him or herself, it may be too late for some effects.
So many people breastfeed for the good effects that last throughout the child's lifetime, why not continue a good, healthy diet for the same reason?
Myranda
Hear! Hear!
You know today it is about food, soft drinks, TV. In the fifties it was about
food, soft drinks and germs. Mothers are still concerned about the same
things, they want the best for their children and they don't know the harm
they can cause by not letting their children learn for themselves. There is no
substitute for experience when learning to make good choices. We can make our
children anxious and nervous and fearful but we cannot teach them to make good
choices by making the choices for them -- they have to learn by personal
experience.
Peggy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So many people breastfeed for the good effects that last throughout the child's lifetime, why not continue a good, healthy diet for the same reason?
Myranda
Hear! Hear!
You know today it is about food, soft drinks, TV. In the fifties it was about
food, soft drinks and germs. Mothers are still concerned about the same
things, they want the best for their children and they don't know the harm
they can cause by not letting their children learn for themselves. There is no
substitute for experience when learning to make good choices. We can make our
children anxious and nervous and fearful but we cannot teach them to make good
choices by making the choices for them -- they have to learn by personal
experience.
Peggy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
> ** You're saying that if your children were doing somethingIf it was immediate harm (like running into the street) then yes I would
> that could harm them, you wouldn't step in and restrict them
> from doing whatever it is? I assumed all parents would, if
> not, then yes, that should be an "I need".
stop them. Additives in food are not going to kill them today. To be honest
with you, one of the reasons why not limiting junk food appeals to me is
because I believe that Jason will be *more* open to listening to me when I
talk about healthy eating if I let it be his choice. If I make the decision
for him he will concentrate more on what I am not letting have rather then
on the why.
> etc. She had a lot of rules, etc, that they had to followHmmm...then they really have not had free reign to choose what they want.
> since they were in her house. They learned that mommy and
> nana had very different beliefs and expectations, and they
> very often tended to do only what nana wouldn't allow when we
> were at home. Three years of that is a hard habit to break, I
> would think.
Even though you were not the one restricting, they were still restricted. So
can you really say that you let them choose and all they chose was junk?
When I recently brought up letting Jason choose his own food, he reminded me
of the week when he was around 3 or so when we decided to let him eat all
the junk he wanted. We panicked after a couple of days and reinstituted our limits.
He says that "no limits failed". But did they really? I honestly don't think
that we gave it long enough or expected it to work. This time around I am
really do feel it will work. Keeping my fingers crossed!
> ** I agree, but how to make a 5 yr old understand that heActually, I do think that my 5 yo would be able to understand this. I don't
> can only have one of these cookies every now and then because
> they have aspartame (sp?) in them, but he can have these
> other cookies all he wants because they only have brown
> sugar? I would think it would be much easier all around to
like him having soda with lots of caffeine or aspartame (in diet drinks).
I have told him this and more often then not he chooses the decaffeinated
non-diet drink. If he chooses one with caffeine, I let him have it. I have
also found lately that he is interested in having me read ingredient labels
to him and we talk a lot about artificial colorings and the like. And why
I like to choose things with the fewest ingredients etc. I think that it is
starting to make sense to him. Time will tell. But I think that if I just
refused to buy him something he would be less likely to listen to me, focusing
instead on what I was not letting him have.
> aspartame can do to him. It's not a matter of beingI have a good friend whose son has *major* allergies...wheat peanuts,
> self-destructive, it's a matter of understanding and
> comprehending. We also have a very large and long history of
> allergies in the family, by keeping away or limiting from
> certain foods (peanuts, milk, wheat, etc) I'm hoping to help
> them avoid many of the allergies so common in my family. It's
> been proven the later you introduce common allergy-foods, and
> the smaller the quantity after introducing them, the risk of
> developing an allergy to it decreases by a huge amount.
gluten etc. She also has 2 other girls, so there is food he is allergic
in the house. Her son is 4 and knows what he can eat and what he can not.
Even when he was younger, she could explain to him that it was not good
for him. She makes him special snacks and makes sure to have lots of treats
that he can eat around. It has never been an issue.
Stephanie E.
Mary Bianco
>From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...><<But you see, "I" don't need to do any of this, so saying "you need"
is not relevant for my real life. You also don't know what the
poster you were talking to "needs".>>
And again, I don't "need" to do these things either with my children. I have
found that most parents who let the children have no limits, and by this I
really mean let them have NO limits. Those children do self regulate
themselves. I know of parents who say they don't restrict and when around
them, I beg to differ. Talking out loud in front of the children or to ones
partner about how the children have had enough or maybe should start
thinking of stopping whatever they are doing, in my opinion isn't imposing
no restrictions. A parent can easily restrict without actually turning off
the TV and pulling the food away from the child. I also think some parents
don't give their children the time the children need to know what they want
themselves. It doesnt' come as quick to some kids.
I also think if there are other outside negative influences, one should
"restrict" those. My in laws are a perfect example. They just don't see the
kids anymore because of what they say. Very harmful stuff in my opinion and
much worse than unlimited TV and food!
<<I am interested in my chldren's complete health - mental,
physical, emotional. I have seen claims of "health" to excuse
control before (he's not healthy if he eats too much chocolate or
drinks too much milk or watches too much TV or doesn't go to
sleep by 8:30). I don't believe children are intentionally self-
destructive. I don't believe that children are incapable of
understanding what excess sugar or lack of sleep or lack of
exercise feels like, and how to avoid those feelings. They might
not "get it" as quickly as Mom would like, but I believe they will get
it.
I trust my children. I am not looking for reasons to control them,
so it turns out they are able and willing to control themselves.
That may be the difference in success or not in "no limits".>>
I totally agree with this also. I don't see kids as being self destructive
being raised the way we are speaking of from a young age either. And yes
some do get it much quicker than others. I think talking to them about
consequences and helping them understand them is essential. That I think is
good guidance. And I have found that the more I trust my children, which
lately has changed, especially with my oldest school child, the more
confidence I have in them when I see them make the right choices. It's all
one great big circle that makes us all happy!!!
Mary B
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