Lisa M. C. Bentley

Background:
I'm a Brownie Girl Scout leader. Last year I was a co-leader in a Daisy
troop of 6 girls, with the only homeschooler being my daughter (there
are currently no homeschool troops in the area and no interest,
either). My co-leader and I, became Brownie leaders with the same group
of girls plus 7 more this year (all new Brownies, and ALL public or
private schooled). 9 are 6 year olds, 3 are 7 year olds, 1 is an 8 year
old.

Problem:
Our meetings start being very chaotic and stressful for me, my
co-leader, and most importantly, the girls. The only way that the chaos
has been minimized is when the girls are given a thousand rules. The
"main" leader over the whole troop has seen these girls go wild and has
come over shouting out rules "No one can throw away their trash until
the whole group can go together." "No one is allowed to go to the
restroom until after circle time, then only in pairs." "No one is
allowed to touch another paint until the lid of the old one is put back
on." "No one is allowed to wiggle." etc. etc. etc. This is stifling
the girls, but whenever I try a more unschooling approach (what an
oxymoron!) everyone goes wild. When "we" demand them to listen, they
don't. When "we" demand silence, they whisper. on and on. I say "we"
because even though I am not the one enforcing or shouting these rules,
the girls view me in the lump of "Authority figures that demand this",
so I am a party to it, especially when I haven't been able to come up
with any alternatives. I'm definitely an introvert and this is draining
me.

With the new girls, there is a pre-established clique of 3 and they are
driving me bananas, too. They always vote together, sit together
(ignoring everyone else), etc. When I've separated them (so that they
could learn the names of the other girls and vice versa), they've
ignored the other girls and have just talked louder to each other.

Many of the girls aren't feeling listened to. I am trying my best to
hear them, but the others aren't letting this happen. The rigidness
that the main leader invokes works (temporarily) and that can be calming
to me. The girls hate it and I hate it because of that. It is not the
way I thrived best as a young girl, either. I just don't see any
different solution from the adult standpoint.

Questions:
Should I quit?
Should I take my daughter out of Girl Scouts entirely since we both get
stifled in such a rigid environment?
Should I try to change the whole troop dynamics?
Should we go over a written list of "rules" or "expectations" or
something of that sort? I know my daughter wouldn't like that, but
these "schooled" girls seem to only follow that sort of direction,
rather than internal rights and wrongs.
Should I get the group split in half? (This actually wouldn't work,
since a Brownie troop "has" to be a minimum of 8.)
Girl Scouts is seeming so "schooly" to me and in all the negative ways.
I've heard others on this list say that they have their girls in troops,
so what can I do to make my troop more successful like theirs?

What I could really use are some real life suggestions on how to make
this work. The girls are all really good and kind and smart. However,
they are clearly brainwashed into thinking that whenever "they" are in
charge of what is going on, then it is free rein to be wild banshees. I
don't think that I can change that in 2 hours a week, but I'd love to.

All suggestions welcome.
-Lisa in AZ

P.S. I'm really getting a lot out of this list. Every question that
I've posted so far has really been listened to and answered. I
appreciate that and I feel that I am a better person and a better mother
for all of your help. Many thanks!!!!

[email protected]

On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:40:34 -0700 "Lisa M. C. Bentley"
<cottrellbentley@...> writes:
> What I could really use are some real life suggestions on how to make
> this work. The girls are all really good and kind and smart.
However,
> they are clearly brainwashed into thinking that whenever "they" are in
> charge of what is going on, then it is free rein to be wild
> banshees. I don't think that I can change that in 2 hours a week, but
I'd love
> to.
>
My daughter is a junior girl scout this year (she's 9). She did 6 months
of (as we call it) Dysfunctional Brownies, and she loved the concept but
was really frustrated by the chaos and arguing (kids and adults). The
troop she's in now has 9 or 10 girls, and the rest have been together for
three years. The leader started unschooling a couple years ago, and her
daughter is Rain's best friend (and her other daughter is the co-leader).


It's been an interesting ride. The girls are all really, really different
from each other - some are in the Britney Spears and "Oh, I'm so fat!"
mode already, some live in really dysfunctional families. Two are from
another culture and try very hard to be quiet and respectful, and are
often aghast at the noise and activity level of the other girls. From
what I hear, the first year or so was rough, but they have really banded
together and become a group, and they've welcomed Rain as part of the
group.

I think it will probably take time for the girls, especially the new
girls, to gel as a group. I don't think rigid rules will help with this
in the long run, although they seem to help in the short run. As I
understand it, girl scouts are supposed to be about the girls being
decision-makers, and maybe you could point that out to the co-leader. I
would also try to plan really active meetings - since most of the kids
have been in school all day, I imagine they really need to let loose.
Maybe you could have a clean up the playground day, or a scavenger hunt,
or try some sports - just tire 'em out, but also focus on activities that
build a sense of community. It seems that the more they're interested in
the activities and feel ownership, the easier it will be to get them
focused. Also, if they have a goal to work towards - Rain's brownie troop
went horseback riding - that might help them focus more.

I actally think going over (or creating) a list of rules or guidelines
would be helpful, especially with input from the girls. You could start
with the girl scout law and promise, I think they talk about stuff like
that... but it probably would help everyone feel safer to at least know
what the expectations are. Rules like "Be quiet when the leader is
talking" seems rigid and not so community-building, but since there is
something in the girl scout stuff about being a sister to other girl
scouts, something like "treat troop members and leaders with
consideration" might work better.

And I don't think things will change overnight, and there may always be a
fair amount of noise and chaos. Honestly, I couldn't lead a troop,
because I have a pretty low tolerance for that. Rain's leaders, however,
are much better at going with the flow, and they can see when things are
just loud and active, and when they're out of control. There are a fair
numbr of arguments, too, and there are girls that stick together and one
girl who apparently annoys just about everyone - but she's still
included.

Good luck!

Dar

kayb85

I have some experience with this. When my daughter was 6, I led a
Brownie troop. It wasn't unschool-style at all. I planned
everything, although I picked things I knew they would like. I had 8
girls. 2 of them were a big problem. They stole, destroyed other
people's projects, and made things generally difficult. They are a
big part of the reason why I quit. The other reason was all the
rules and paperwork anytime we wanted to go aywhere. Also just that I
felt I wasn't giving my boys as much time as I was giving my
daughter.

I took a year off, then got together with a friend and had a troop
with just three girls--her two and my one. It worked out nice.

This year, I decided to go with a regular troop again. I called a
few girls from our old troop and was going to open the troop up to 15
girls at the sign ups our council was having. Then they started
giving me trouble. They started telling me that my friend's
daughter (who plays with my daughter all the time) couldn't be in the
troop. My friend's daughter is 7, and the guidelines for being in a
troop are at least age 8 or grades 3,4,5, and 6. I signed her up as
a fourth grader and they wouldn't let me do it. They said they were
concerned that the material is too much for a 7 year old. I said
that her mom wasn't concerned, would be present at all meetings, and
that the mom's decision should be enough. They kept insisting that a
7 year old is a 2nd grader and that's all there is to it. Then they
said I couldn't have the meetings in my house. I said forget it, I'm
done with the girl scout organization! So now we have a "girls'
club" in our house. It is totally unschooled style. The girls pick
all of the activities. I told them that I would do everything in my
power to help them do the activities that they want to do. We will
also have some fundraisers to help with the costs of activities.
However, I had the luxury of choosing who I invite and have no
problems with any of the girls in the group.

I did find some places on the web with badges in stock and was either
going to buy sashes for them or sew them. (www.joycrest.com is the
best badge place I found). But they said they would rather make
scrapbooks up of their activities instead of buying badges, so I'll
just bring the digital camera along to our activities.

I checked with my insurance agent and he said that my home liability
insurance is enough to cover this type of thing. I also had the
parents sign liability waivers and forms giving me permission to take
them to the emergency room.

I threw that out because it is one option you might want to
consider.

If you keep the existing troop going, then maybe you might want to
consider choosing activities and meeting places where they can run
wild. Maybe they need to "deschool" from the idea that when they're
in charge they run wild. Maybe meet at playgrounds for awhile. I
don't know if you live in an area where there are a lot of
playgrounds that you could drive to in a reasonable amount of time,
but if you do, maybe you could have meetings at 4 different
playgrounds and then vote on which was your troop's favorite
playground. Then maybe you could do something extra special for your
favorite playground as a troop. Maybe volunteer to paint a bench, or
clean up all the litter, or plant flowers or something.

Maybe they spend so much time cooped up in school that they NEED to
run. Maybe take them to Mcdonalds and let them loose in the play
area for a meeting. Or find a big field and bring some equipment
(frisbees, balls, badminton rackets) but no rules. Just let them
run. Maybe they could even handle a scavenger hunt, where they
divide into two groups, or draw names and go with a partner, and look
for a list of things you give them.

Another idea is the hobby badge. In my brownie troop, I had a night
where everyone got a table to set up their special hobbies. Someone
brought a coin collection, someone brought a beanie baby collection,
someone brought her drawings, etc. They each got time to tell
everyone about their special hobby. Since they love to talk about
their interests, they took a lot of time setting up their tables with
their collections.

We also did secret pals (which is for one of the badges). At the
beginning of the year, everyone drew names but didn't tell whose name
they drew. Throughout the year, they did something special for their
secret pal--a little gift on their birthday or Christmas, little
notes or cards, etc. At the end of the year, everyone guessed who
had been giving them treats all year and gave their secret pal a
thank you present. (We had a $5 limit). That gives the girls a
chance to focus on someone who they might not normally focus on--
paying attention to when their birthday is, etc.

I know a leader who handed her brownies a badge book and had them
each pick a badge. It wasn't "do whatever you want at the meetings"
but "choose whatever badge you want to do at the meetings". That's
not a totally unschooling approach though.

Another idea is that as soon as they earn their first badge, give
them their badge right away instead of waiting until the end of the
year. Kids that age sometimes don't really know what a badge is or
how cool it is to have one for the sash until they get their first
one. Then they want more. But I wouldn't use the badges as
manipulation like schools use grades. Maybe they don't care about
badges. That's cool too. Maybe they just want to have fun doing
stuff like run and play and make up their own games with their own
rules like they don't get to do all day in school.

Sheila


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lisa M. C. Bentley"
<cottrellbentley@c...> wrote:
> Background:
> I'm a Brownie Girl Scout leader. Last year I was a co-leader in a
Daisy
> troop of 6 girls, with the only homeschooler being my daughter
(there
> are currently no homeschool troops in the area and no interest,
> either). My co-leader and I, became Brownie leaders with the same
group
> of girls plus 7 more this year (all new Brownies, and ALL public or
> private schooled). 9 are 6 year olds, 3 are 7 year olds, 1 is an 8
year
> old.
>
> Problem:
> Our meetings start being very chaotic and stressful for me, my
> co-leader, and most importantly, the girls. The only way that the
chaos
> has been minimized is when the girls are given a thousand rules.
The
> "main" leader over the whole troop has seen these girls go wild and
has
> come over shouting out rules "No one can throw away their trash
until
> the whole group can go together." "No one is allowed to go to the
> restroom until after circle time, then only in pairs." "No one is
> allowed to touch another paint until the lid of the old one is put
back
> on." "No one is allowed to wiggle." etc. etc. etc. This is
stifling
> the girls, but whenever I try a more unschooling approach (what an
> oxymoron!) everyone goes wild. When "we" demand them to listen,
they
> don't. When "we" demand silence, they whisper. on and on. I
say "we"
> because even though I am not the one enforcing or shouting these
rules,
> the girls view me in the lump of "Authority figures that demand
this",
> so I am a party to it, especially when I haven't been able to come
up
> with any alternatives. I'm definitely an introvert and this is
draining
> me.
>
> With the new girls, there is a pre-established clique of 3 and they
are
> driving me bananas, too. They always vote together, sit together
> (ignoring everyone else), etc. When I've separated them (so that
they
> could learn the names of the other girls and vice versa), they've
> ignored the other girls and have just talked louder to each other.
>
> Many of the girls aren't feeling listened to. I am trying my best
to
> hear them, but the others aren't letting this happen. The rigidness
> that the main leader invokes works (temporarily) and that can be
calming
> to me. The girls hate it and I hate it because of that. It is not
the
> way I thrived best as a young girl, either. I just don't see any
> different solution from the adult standpoint.
>
> Questions:
> Should I quit?
> Should I take my daughter out of Girl Scouts entirely since we both
get
> stifled in such a rigid environment?
> Should I try to change the whole troop dynamics?
> Should we go over a written list of "rules" or "expectations" or
> something of that sort? I know my daughter wouldn't like that, but
> these "schooled" girls seem to only follow that sort of direction,
> rather than internal rights and wrongs.
> Should I get the group split in half? (This actually wouldn't work,
> since a Brownie troop "has" to be a minimum of 8.)
> Girl Scouts is seeming so "schooly" to me and in all the negative
ways.
> I've heard others on this list say that they have their girls in
troops,
> so what can I do to make my troop more successful like theirs?
>
> What I could really use are some real life suggestions on how to
make
> this work. The girls are all really good and kind and smart.
However,
> they are clearly brainwashed into thinking that whenever "they" are
in
> charge of what is going on, then it is free rein to be wild
banshees. I
> don't think that I can change that in 2 hours a week, but I'd love
to.
>
> All suggestions welcome.
> -Lisa in AZ
>
> P.S. I'm really getting a lot out of this list. Every question
that
> I've posted so far has really been listened to and answered. I
> appreciate that and I feel that I am a better person and a better
mother
> for all of your help. Many thanks!!!!