Pam Hartley

\> My question is this. I have always asked that she brush her teeth,
> get dressed, and make her bed in the morning. After she completes
> those responsibilities, she is free to do whatever she chooses, from
> playing her violin, reading, watching tv, playing outside - the
> choice is hers. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I have been
> reading many postings here, and am wondering if/how my "requiring"
> her to do ANYTHING (chores, responsitilies etc) might have an effect
> on unschooling. I don't require academics, or "education", but
> simple, basic hygiene etc. Literally, if I didn't "make" her brush
> her teeth, she might not for a week. (yuck!) She battles me about
> these basic things! I have tried numerous things to get these things
> taken care of, but could use any suggestions you may have.

When my daughters and I have a disagreement over basic hygiene/safety/health
I tell them what I'm worried about (cavities, etc.) We try to come to an
agreement about when, how often, and if they want me to remind them and how
I'll approach it if they forget. There is nothing magical about hopping out
of bed and brushing teeth. If she does it once or twice a day sometime,
she'll get what benefit (and some say it's marginal benefit anyway, and that
cavities-or-not are more genetic than anything) there is to be had.

Getting dressed and making her bed are matters of neither hygiene nor health
(well, unless she wants to play naked in a snowstorm <g>). Those are
arguments I would drop like hot rocks. If her bed bothers you, make it. :)
If seeing her in pjs until 3 p.m. bothers you, take deep breaths and learn
to overcome it.

>
> One more question, while I'm at it. How do you all deal with
> disrespect? Talking back, raising her voice to me, stomping,
> slamming doors - she gets very frustrated when things don't go "just
> right". Yesterday it was violin. She was playing, and didn't get
> the song perfect. She started to get angry. I suggested she put it
> away for a bit, and take it out later for a fresh start. She slammed
> down the bow, knocked over her music stand in her huff, and slammed
> her bedroom door. I have repeatedly talked to her, to help her
> understand that it doesn't have to and isn't going to be perfect
> everytime, etc etc...

This doesn't sound to me like disrespect. This sounds to me like she doesn't
want a lecture when she's feeling bad about violin. As a female with
perfectionist tendencies myself ;) I understand that the worst thing someone
can do while I'm in a huff over my own real or imagined inadequacies is try
to talk rationally to me. Sympathy works better, "I hate it when I don't get
something right. Here, punch this pillow." Or just leaving me alone for a
bit.

Later, after the slamming etc. is all done, she'll probably be more ready to
talk calmly, but the conversation at that point might be about how you can
help her learn to control her outburst and direct them toward acceptable
outlets (scrubbing a bathtub in a huff or going into the yard and running
around full speed are terrific, slamming doors and scaring the 3 year old
aren't). Telling her she shouldn't feel how she feels is not, IMHO, the most
positive approach.

> It isn't healthy for any of us to endure her attitude, (I also have a
> 3 year old boy that is copying her behaviors), there should be
> consequences for her actions. When she gets angry because her game
> isn't going well, she slams the playstation. I take away her
> playstation for the day - the punishment fits the crime. But what
> about general disrespect or attitude? She pushing to see what the
> limits are, that's for sure. Sometimes I wonder if she thinks she
> doesn't have to listen to me, because she thinks she's as smart as
> me?

I think punishment in general is a really, really bad idea. If your husband
slams the front door because he's had a terrible day at work, do you take
away his door privileges? If you have an awful day and toss your earrings at
the wall, are you denied jewelry for a certain period of time?

Respect begets respect, and parents have to first show it to children before
they will get it back from the children. They learn by what we do to them,
not what we say they should do. If you punish her, she'll want to punish
you. If you try to control her (bed making, dressing, toothbrushing to your
timetable), she'll do what she can to seize back what control she can.

If you sympathize with her pain, stop her from actually harming herself and
others while not telling her the feelings themselves are wrong, just her
expression of them could use some work, I think you'll see a more positive
response.

Best wishes,

Pam

Lisa M. C. Bentley

> \> My question is this. I have always asked that she brush her teeth,
> > get dressed, and make her bed in the morning.

I can't wait to hear all the responses on this. Here is my
perspective: I view teeth brushing as very very important, even
essential to the health of our teeth. Since I don't want any of us to
get cavities, I say something like, "Let's go brush our teeth. Mine
feel grody [they do, too, or I wouldn't say it]. Do yours? Let's get
them all clean." Then, we all go and brush our teeth. We do this
sometime in the morning hours (usually) and before bed (always). I
wouldn't wake a sleeping child to do this, but I feel that it is
essential for the awake kid's to do it. My kids are only 6 and 2, so
they aren't quite able to _properly_ do this themselves, but the 6 yo is
close and she does her own in the morning and I do touch ups after she
does her own at bedtime. If she didn't brush her teeth, I honestly
believe that she'd get cavities. We've talked about this and how they
would feel, how it would be at the dentists and the large amount of
money and time it would cost the whole family. She doesn't balk it at
all, but she usually has to be reminded. As for the two year old, she
wants to be like her sister so she is usually pretty easy. With my 6
yo, we had a problem with her and brushing for a while when she was
younger and consistency was the key with her.

As for bedmaking. We only make our beds two times in our house (and
even then it is pretty sloppily made): when the sheets have just been
washed and when company is coming that will see the bed. I read
somewhere once that making a bed can cause asthma. Something about the
bedmites thriving on the sweat of humans and the dampness of the bed
growing into mold, etc. when the sheets are covered, but that when the
covers are left open they dry and so the mites can't grow. I don't know
all the details, but I can see how this could be true and I use it as an
excuse since asthma runs in my family and I've done everything else
possible to prevent it in my kids, so why not this, too? I don't mind
since I hate making beds. :)

As for getting dressed, sometimes none of us get dressed for the day.
It can be more relaxing that way. When we are going somewhere, I'll say
something like,"Let's go put on some pretty clothes to go to the library
(or wherever)" and I always get compliance. I think it is because my
6yo LOVES to dress pretty. She usually picks out all of our outfits,
actually, since she loves it so much. DH had her picking out his shirts
to wear for the day when she was just a few months old. He appreciates
it since he hates doing it and she loves to get us all matching and
color coordinated.

I bet your daughter would be really shocked if you told her that she
didn't have to make her bed or get dressed for the day! She'd probably
test you on it a few times and then do it herself (especially the
getting dressed part). Could you go in and brush your teeth at the same
time as her in the morning? Could you maybe have her brush your teeth
or something equally funny to her? Does she get to pick out her own
toothbrush and toothpaste? It took me a couple of years to figure out
that my daughter hated the taste of mint and that is why she didn't want
to brush her teeth. She loves the strawberry though, and I think it is
disgusting. She's also really into pretty things, so paying extra for a
"pretty" toothbrush is worth it to me.

-Lisa

luv2unskool

Pam, you say "punishment, in general is a really, really bad idea".
What should I do when she hits her younger brother, yells at him,
slams her door into the wall and makes a hole, or yells at me? If I
do nothing, I feel I am saying the bahavior is acceptable.

Also an added note - I think the reason her room bothers me, has
something to do with the fact we spend months and $2,000+ remodeling
it for her. Ouch! :)

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> \> My question is this. I have always asked that she brush her
teeth,
> > get dressed, and make her bed in the morning. After she
completes
> > those responsibilities, she is free to do whatever she chooses,
from
> > playing her violin, reading, watching tv, playing outside - the
> > choice is hers. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I have
been
> > reading many postings here, and am wondering if/how my "requiring"
> > her to do ANYTHING (chores, responsitilies etc) might have an
effect
> > on unschooling. I don't require academics, or "education", but
> > simple, basic hygiene etc. Literally, if I didn't "make" her
brush
> > her teeth, she might not for a week. (yuck!) She battles me
about
> > these basic things! I have tried numerous things to get these
things
> > taken care of, but could use any suggestions you may have.
>
> When my daughters and I have a disagreement over basic
hygiene/safety/health
> I tell them what I'm worried about (cavities, etc.) We try to come
to an
> agreement about when, how often, and if they want me to remind them
and how
> I'll approach it if they forget. There is nothing magical about
hopping out
> of bed and brushing teeth. If she does it once or twice a day
sometime,
> she'll get what benefit (and some say it's marginal benefit anyway,
and that
> cavities-or-not are more genetic than anything) there is to be had.
>
> Getting dressed and making her bed are matters of neither hygiene
nor health
> (well, unless she wants to play naked in a snowstorm <g>). Those are
> arguments I would drop like hot rocks. If her bed bothers you, make
it. :)
> If seeing her in pjs until 3 p.m. bothers you, take deep breaths
and learn
> to overcome it.
>
> >
> > One more question, while I'm at it. How do you all deal with
> > disrespect? Talking back, raising her voice to me, stomping,
> > slamming doors - she gets very frustrated when things don't
go "just
> > right". Yesterday it was violin. She was playing, and didn't get
> > the song perfect. She started to get angry. I suggested she put
it
> > away for a bit, and take it out later for a fresh start. She
slammed
> > down the bow, knocked over her music stand in her huff, and
slammed
> > her bedroom door. I have repeatedly talked to her, to help her
> > understand that it doesn't have to and isn't going to be perfect
> > everytime, etc etc...
>
> This doesn't sound to me like disrespect. This sounds to me like
she doesn't
> want a lecture when she's feeling bad about violin. As a female with
> perfectionist tendencies myself ;) I understand that the worst
thing someone
> can do while I'm in a huff over my own real or imagined
inadequacies is try
> to talk rationally to me. Sympathy works better, "I hate it when I
don't get
> something right. Here, punch this pillow." Or just leaving me alone
for a
> bit.
>
> Later, after the slamming etc. is all done, she'll probably be more
ready to
> talk calmly, but the conversation at that point might be about how
you can
> help her learn to control her outburst and direct them toward
acceptable
> outlets (scrubbing a bathtub in a huff or going into the yard and
running
> around full speed are terrific, slamming doors and scaring the 3
year old
> aren't). Telling her she shouldn't feel how she feels is not, IMHO,
the most
> positive approach.
>
> > It isn't healthy for any of us to endure her attitude, (I also
have a
> > 3 year old boy that is copying her behaviors), there should be
> > consequences for her actions. When she gets angry because her
game
> > isn't going well, she slams the playstation. I take away her
> > playstation for the day - the punishment fits the crime. But what
> > about general disrespect or attitude? She pushing to see what the
> > limits are, that's for sure. Sometimes I wonder if she thinks she
> > doesn't have to listen to me, because she thinks she's as smart as
> > me?
>
> I think punishment in general is a really, really bad idea. If your
husband
> slams the front door because he's had a terrible day at work, do
you take
> away his door privileges? If you have an awful day and toss your
earrings at
> the wall, are you denied jewelry for a certain period of time?
>
> Respect begets respect, and parents have to first show it to
children before
> they will get it back from the children. They learn by what we do
to them,
> not what we say they should do. If you punish her, she'll want to
punish
> you. If you try to control her (bed making, dressing, toothbrushing
to your
> timetable), she'll do what she can to seize back what control she
can.
>
> If you sympathize with her pain, stop her from actually harming
herself and
> others while not telling her the feelings themselves are wrong,
just her
> expression of them could use some work, I think you'll see a more
positive
> response.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Pam

luv2unskool

behavior... spent... I should have read my posting before sending!
Oops! :)

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "luv2unskool" <cmr0523@h...> wrote:
> Pam, you say "punishment, in general is a really, really bad
idea".
> What should I do when she hits her younger brother, yells at him,
> slams her door into the wall and makes a hole, or yells at me? If
I
> do nothing, I feel I am saying the bahavior is acceptable.
>
> Also an added note - I think the reason her room bothers me, has
> something to do with the fact we spend months and $2,000+
remodeling
> it for her. Ouch! :)
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> > \> My question is this. I have always asked that she brush her
> teeth,
> > > get dressed, and make her bed in the morning. After she
> completes
> > > those responsibilities, she is free to do whatever she chooses,
> from
> > > playing her violin, reading, watching tv, playing outside - the
> > > choice is hers. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I have
> been
> > > reading many postings here, and am wondering if/how
my "requiring"
> > > her to do ANYTHING (chores, responsitilies etc) might have an
> effect
> > > on unschooling. I don't require academics, or "education", but
> > > simple, basic hygiene etc. Literally, if I didn't "make" her
> brush
> > > her teeth, she might not for a week. (yuck!) She battles me
> about
> > > these basic things! I have tried numerous things to get these
> things
> > > taken care of, but could use any suggestions you may have.
> >
> > When my daughters and I have a disagreement over basic
> hygiene/safety/health
> > I tell them what I'm worried about (cavities, etc.) We try to
come
> to an
> > agreement about when, how often, and if they want me to remind
them
> and how
> > I'll approach it if they forget. There is nothing magical about
> hopping out
> > of bed and brushing teeth. If she does it once or twice a day
> sometime,
> > she'll get what benefit (and some say it's marginal benefit
anyway,
> and that
> > cavities-or-not are more genetic than anything) there is to be
had.
> >
> > Getting dressed and making her bed are matters of neither hygiene
> nor health
> > (well, unless she wants to play naked in a snowstorm <g>). Those
are
> > arguments I would drop like hot rocks. If her bed bothers you,
make
> it. :)
> > If seeing her in pjs until 3 p.m. bothers you, take deep breaths
> and learn
> > to overcome it.
> >
> > >
> > > One more question, while I'm at it. How do you all deal with
> > > disrespect? Talking back, raising her voice to me, stomping,
> > > slamming doors - she gets very frustrated when things don't
> go "just
> > > right". Yesterday it was violin. She was playing, and didn't
get
> > > the song perfect. She started to get angry. I suggested she
put
> it
> > > away for a bit, and take it out later for a fresh start. She
> slammed
> > > down the bow, knocked over her music stand in her huff, and
> slammed
> > > her bedroom door. I have repeatedly talked to her, to help her
> > > understand that it doesn't have to and isn't going to be perfect
> > > everytime, etc etc...
> >
> > This doesn't sound to me like disrespect. This sounds to me like
> she doesn't
> > want a lecture when she's feeling bad about violin. As a female
with
> > perfectionist tendencies myself ;) I understand that the worst
> thing someone
> > can do while I'm in a huff over my own real or imagined
> inadequacies is try
> > to talk rationally to me. Sympathy works better, "I hate it when
I
> don't get
> > something right. Here, punch this pillow." Or just leaving me
alone
> for a
> > bit.
> >
> > Later, after the slamming etc. is all done, she'll probably be
more
> ready to
> > talk calmly, but the conversation at that point might be about
how
> you can
> > help her learn to control her outburst and direct them toward
> acceptable
> > outlets (scrubbing a bathtub in a huff or going into the yard and
> running
> > around full speed are terrific, slamming doors and scaring the 3
> year old
> > aren't). Telling her she shouldn't feel how she feels is not,
IMHO,
> the most
> > positive approach.
> >
> > > It isn't healthy for any of us to endure her attitude, (I also
> have a
> > > 3 year old boy that is copying her behaviors), there should be
> > > consequences for her actions. When she gets angry because her
> game
> > > isn't going well, she slams the playstation. I take away her
> > > playstation for the day - the punishment fits the crime. But
what
> > > about general disrespect or attitude? She pushing to see what
the
> > > limits are, that's for sure. Sometimes I wonder if she thinks
she
> > > doesn't have to listen to me, because she thinks she's as smart
as
> > > me?
> >
> > I think punishment in general is a really, really bad idea. If
your
> husband
> > slams the front door because he's had a terrible day at work, do
> you take
> > away his door privileges? If you have an awful day and toss your
> earrings at
> > the wall, are you denied jewelry for a certain period of time?
> >
> > Respect begets respect, and parents have to first show it to
> children before
> > they will get it back from the children. They learn by what we do
> to them,
> > not what we say they should do. If you punish her, she'll want to
> punish
> > you. If you try to control her (bed making, dressing,
toothbrushing
> to your
> > timetable), she'll do what she can to seize back what control she
> can.
> >
> > If you sympathize with her pain, stop her from actually harming
> herself and
> > others while not telling her the feelings themselves are wrong,
> just her
> > expression of them could use some work, I think you'll see a more
> positive
> > response.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Pam

luv2unskool

I have always believed in consequences for actions. (When I was
working), if I didn't go to work, the consequence would be no pay, or
possibly losing my job. If I don't take out the trash, it could
stink up the house. If I leave toys on the floor, the dog will chew
them up. Life is full of real consequences.

How can I help my children grow to be responsible adults, if I don't
help them understand consequences? If I don't help them to be
responsible? I'm not sure I'm getting my thoughts down correctly.

If you always let your children quit something because they don't
feel like it, won't they grow to be quitters? Don't get me wrong, I
don't want to force my child to continue playing an instrument she
dislikes, or doing something she hates to do.

One issue we had awhile back was volunteer work. We volunteer weekly
at the local food bank. It was fun for my daughter at first, but
she's losing interest. It isn't exciting to her anymore. She wanted
to quit. An adult can't quit their job because they don't feel like
going to work anymore. We have come to the agreement of only
volunteering once a month, that makes us both happy.

What if a child doesn't want to pick up their toys? They're all over
the floor, and company is coming. "I don't want to", is what your
child tells you.

You need to go to the bank, but your child doesn't want to brush her
teeth and get dressed, she wants to read. She doesn't budge. She
doesn't want to go. She's not listening to reason. She's not old
enough to be left alone, and the bank closes in 1/2 hour.
Consequences or punishment certainly seems in order, you've got to
get the results you need, and fast! (or is there another way, please
share with me!)

I am truly open to your thoughts, but this is new to me. I have
consequences on the brain, and I need deprogramming! Unschooling is
wonderful and free, but I don't want my daughter to run the
household, where we adjust to her moods.


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> \> My question is this. I have always asked that she brush her
teeth,
> > get dressed, and make her bed in the morning. After she
completes
> > those responsibilities, she is free to do whatever she chooses,
from
> > playing her violin, reading, watching tv, playing outside - the
> > choice is hers. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I have
been
> > reading many postings here, and am wondering if/how my "requiring"
> > her to do ANYTHING (chores, responsitilies etc) might have an
effect
> > on unschooling. I don't require academics, or "education", but
> > simple, basic hygiene etc. Literally, if I didn't "make" her
brush
> > her teeth, she might not for a week. (yuck!) She battles me
about
> > these basic things! I have tried numerous things to get these
things
> > taken care of, but could use any suggestions you may have.
>
> When my daughters and I have a disagreement over basic
hygiene/safety/health
> I tell them what I'm worried about (cavities, etc.) We try to come
to an
> agreement about when, how often, and if they want me to remind them
and how
> I'll approach it if they forget. There is nothing magical about
hopping out
> of bed and brushing teeth. If she does it once or twice a day
sometime,
> she'll get what benefit (and some say it's marginal benefit anyway,
and that
> cavities-or-not are more genetic than anything) there is to be had.
>
> Getting dressed and making her bed are matters of neither hygiene
nor health
> (well, unless she wants to play naked in a snowstorm <g>). Those are
> arguments I would drop like hot rocks. If her bed bothers you, make
it. :)
> If seeing her in pjs until 3 p.m. bothers you, take deep breaths
and learn
> to overcome it.
>
> >
> > One more question, while I'm at it. How do you all deal with
> > disrespect? Talking back, raising her voice to me, stomping,
> > slamming doors - she gets very frustrated when things don't
go "just
> > right". Yesterday it was violin. She was playing, and didn't get
> > the song perfect. She started to get angry. I suggested she put
it
> > away for a bit, and take it out later for a fresh start. She
slammed
> > down the bow, knocked over her music stand in her huff, and
slammed
> > her bedroom door. I have repeatedly talked to her, to help her
> > understand that it doesn't have to and isn't going to be perfect
> > everytime, etc etc...
>
> This doesn't sound to me like disrespect. This sounds to me like
she doesn't
> want a lecture when she's feeling bad about violin. As a female with
> perfectionist tendencies myself ;) I understand that the worst
thing someone
> can do while I'm in a huff over my own real or imagined
inadequacies is try
> to talk rationally to me. Sympathy works better, "I hate it when I
don't get
> something right. Here, punch this pillow." Or just leaving me alone
for a
> bit.
>
> Later, after the slamming etc. is all done, she'll probably be more
ready to
> talk calmly, but the conversation at that point might be about how
you can
> help her learn to control her outburst and direct them toward
acceptable
> outlets (scrubbing a bathtub in a huff or going into the yard and
running
> around full speed are terrific, slamming doors and scaring the 3
year old
> aren't). Telling her she shouldn't feel how she feels is not, IMHO,
the most
> positive approach.
>
> > It isn't healthy for any of us to endure her attitude, (I also
have a
> > 3 year old boy that is copying her behaviors), there should be
> > consequences for her actions. When she gets angry because her
game
> > isn't going well, she slams the playstation. I take away her
> > playstation for the day - the punishment fits the crime. But what
> > about general disrespect or attitude? She pushing to see what the
> > limits are, that's for sure. Sometimes I wonder if she thinks she
> > doesn't have to listen to me, because she thinks she's as smart as
> > me?
>
> I think punishment in general is a really, really bad idea. If your
husband
> slams the front door because he's had a terrible day at work, do
you take
> away his door privileges? If you have an awful day and toss your
earrings at
> the wall, are you denied jewelry for a certain period of time?
>
> Respect begets respect, and parents have to first show it to
children before
> they will get it back from the children. They learn by what we do
to them,
> not what we say they should do. If you punish her, she'll want to
punish
> you. If you try to control her (bed making, dressing, toothbrushing
to your
> timetable), she'll do what she can to seize back what control she
can.
>
> If you sympathize with her pain, stop her from actually harming
herself and
> others while not telling her the feelings themselves are wrong,
just her
> expression of them could use some work, I think you'll see a more
positive
> response.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Pam

Pam Hartley

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "luv2unskool" <cmr0523@h...>
wrote:
> Pam, you say "punishment, in general is a really, really bad
idea".
> What should I do when she hits her younger brother, yells at
him,
> slams her door into the wall and makes a hole, or yells at me?
If I
> do nothing, I feel I am saying the bahavior is acceptable.

Doing nothing would be darned silly, you're right. :) Sandra Dodd
wrote something awhile back that has really helped us, which is
that she has told her boys, "You can only hit after you get an adult
to come and help and that hasn't worked." If they hit before that,
she reminds them. She also takes the victim off someplace
calm and spends some time doing something calm with them
(finger painting or building blocks or some such for the 3 year
old) and that gives the hitter time to calm down, too, when they
can then be approached for conversation. I am assuming that
nobody in the house gets to hit anybody else (parent to parent, or
parent to child, or child to child) so it's not like she doesn't know
this, it's a matter of talking out better coping skills for the future.

I would prevent her from hitting her younger brother if I possibly
could (if she does this a lot, her being 9 and him 3, I would
probably worry quite a bit and maybe think about some kind of
family counseling, that's a pretty big age difference for her to be
losing control to that point. Does she have her own toddler-free
space? Are they left on their own a lot or are you most always
there?) Yelling at him, ditto. I am assuming she's not just getting
into a tantrum, seeking him out wherever he is, just to pounce on
him and hit and yell -- I am assuming instead that he is
underfoot as all good 3-year olds strive to be and she's lashing
out in his general direction. In that case, I'd be keeping tabs on
the 3 year old and keeping his peskiness to a low level while you
all sort this out together.

Slamming doors and damaging walls are a much less serious
proposition. I might sit down with her in calm times and suggest
other steam-releasing things she can do -- whatever seems to fit
and work for her, whether it's exercise, hanging a punching bag
in the garage, or whatever. I might ask her nicely if she'd help me
fix the wall, but would not make a big thing of it if she didn't want
to. I might tell her of times that I lost my temper and what I found
ultimately helped me not to act out (once, I threw an entire open
box of crackers at my husband. I was 29. Oy.)

If my child yelled at me, I would turn my back and walk away (er,
take the 3 year old with you <g>) and approach them again when
they're calm and ask them not to do that again and talk again
about coping strategies (this will not work if you or her father yell
at her. What goes around comes around.)

> Also an added note - I think the reason her room bothers me,
has
> something to do with the fact we spend months and $2,000+
remodeling
> it for her. Ouch! :)

I am hoping you know already that your spending whatever sum
of time and money was a gift, and gifts should be given free of
strings, whatever they cost. A gift that is used to control you is no
gift at all, it's a trap.

Pam

Peggy

There's quite a bit in your post -- I'm sure we could all go on for days about
consequences and motivation and learning to be a self directed learner. But,
in a nut shell, what I would consider is this:

Ask yourself what shuts off communication between you and your daughter?
Because, if she isn't talking about what excites her or doesn't feel free to
share what's really going on with her without fear of recrimination then when
she does need your help she probably isn't going to ask for it. Ask yourself
how you can not only help keep her on track but also how you can be the one
she will feel free to ask for help if she does get stuck. If communication has
shut down this isn't going to happen. Keeping communication open between the
two of you should be on the top of the priority list, way above learning
responsibility or teaching consequences.

One thing I've noticed with my own volatile daughter is that she yells when
she feels like she isn't being heard. And it becomes a habit. Habits like that
take a while to wind down once they have gone into a loop for a while. Don't
expect changes to come fast or easy, but if you are patient and change the
feedback loop they will come.

Peggy



luv2unskool wrote:
>
> I have always believed in consequences for actions. (When I was
> working), if I didn't go to work, the consequence would be no pay, or
> possibly losing my job. If I don't take out the trash, it could
> stink up the house. If I leave toys on the floor, the dog will chew
> them up. Life is full of real consequences.
>
> How can I help my children grow to be responsible adults, if I don't
> help them understand consequences? If I don't help them to be
> responsible? I'm not sure I'm getting my thoughts down correctly.
>
> If you always let your children quit something because they don't
> feel like it, won't they grow to be quitters? Don't get me wrong, I
> don't want to force my child to continue playing an instrument she
> dislikes, or doing something she hates to do.
>
> One issue we had awhile back was volunteer work. We volunteer weekly
> at the local food bank. It was fun for my daughter at first, but
> she's losing interest. It isn't exciting to her anymore. She wanted
> to quit. An adult can't quit their job because they don't feel like
> going to work anymore. We have come to the agreement of only
> volunteering once a month, that makes us both happy.
>
> What if a child doesn't want to pick up their toys? They're all over
> the floor, and company is coming. "I don't want to", is what your
> child tells you.
>
> You need to go to the bank, but your child doesn't want to brush her
> teeth and get dressed, she wants to read. She doesn't budge. She
> doesn't want to go. She's not listening to reason. She's not old
> enough to be left alone, and the bank closes in 1/2 hour.
> Consequences or punishment certainly seems in order, you've got to
> get the results you need, and fast! (or is there another way, please
> share with me!)
>
> I am truly open to your thoughts, but this is new to me. I have
> consequences on the brain, and I need deprogramming! Unschooling is
> wonderful and free, but I don't want my daughter to run the
> household, where we adjust to her moods.
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> > \> My question is this. I have always asked that she brush her
> teeth,
> > > get dressed, and make her bed in the morning. After she
> completes
> > > those responsibilities, she is free to do whatever she chooses,
> from
> > > playing her violin, reading, watching tv, playing outside - the
> > > choice is hers. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I have
> been
> > > reading many postings here, and am wondering if/how my "requiring"
> > > her to do ANYTHING (chores, responsitilies etc) might have an
> effect
> > > on unschooling. I don't require academics, or "education", but
> > > simple, basic hygiene etc. Literally, if I didn't "make" her
> brush
> > > her teeth, she might not for a week. (yuck!) She battles me
> about
> > > these basic things! I have tried numerous things to get these
> things
> > > taken care of, but could use any suggestions you may have.
> >
> > When my daughters and I have a disagreement over basic
> hygiene/safety/health
> > I tell them what I'm worried about (cavities, etc.) We try to come
> to an
> > agreement about when, how often, and if they want me to remind them
> and how
> > I'll approach it if they forget. There is nothing magical about
> hopping out
> > of bed and brushing teeth. If she does it once or twice a day
> sometime,
> > she'll get what benefit (and some say it's marginal benefit anyway,
> and that
> > cavities-or-not are more genetic than anything) there is to be had.
> >
> > Getting dressed and making her bed are matters of neither hygiene
> nor health
> > (well, unless she wants to play naked in a snowstorm <g>). Those are
> > arguments I would drop like hot rocks. If her bed bothers you, make
> it. :)
> > If seeing her in pjs until 3 p.m. bothers you, take deep breaths
> and learn
> > to overcome it.
> >
> > >
> > > One more question, while I'm at it. How do you all deal with
> > > disrespect? Talking back, raising her voice to me, stomping,
> > > slamming doors - she gets very frustrated when things don't
> go "just
> > > right". Yesterday it was violin. She was playing, and didn't get
> > > the song perfect. She started to get angry. I suggested she put
> it
> > > away for a bit, and take it out later for a fresh start. She
> slammed
> > > down the bow, knocked over her music stand in her huff, and
> slammed
> > > her bedroom door. I have repeatedly talked to her, to help her
> > > understand that it doesn't have to and isn't going to be perfect
> > > everytime, etc etc...
> >
> > This doesn't sound to me like disrespect. This sounds to me like
> she doesn't
> > want a lecture when she's feeling bad about violin. As a female with
> > perfectionist tendencies myself ;) I understand that the worst
> thing someone
> > can do while I'm in a huff over my own real or imagined
> inadequacies is try
> > to talk rationally to me. Sympathy works better, "I hate it when I
> don't get
> > something right. Here, punch this pillow." Or just leaving me alone
> for a
> > bit.
> >
> > Later, after the slamming etc. is all done, she'll probably be more
> ready to
> > talk calmly, but the conversation at that point might be about how
> you can
> > help her learn to control her outburst and direct them toward
> acceptable
> > outlets (scrubbing a bathtub in a huff or going into the yard and
> running
> > around full speed are terrific, slamming doors and scaring the 3
> year old
> > aren't). Telling her she shouldn't feel how she feels is not, IMHO,
> the most
> > positive approach.
> >
> > > It isn't healthy for any of us to endure her attitude, (I also
> have a
> > > 3 year old boy that is copying her behaviors), there should be
> > > consequences for her actions. When she gets angry because her
> game
> > > isn't going well, she slams the playstation. I take away her
> > > playstation for the day - the punishment fits the crime. But what
> > > about general disrespect or attitude? She pushing to see what the
> > > limits are, that's for sure. Sometimes I wonder if she thinks she
> > > doesn't have to listen to me, because she thinks she's as smart as
> > > me?
> >
> > I think punishment in general is a really, really bad idea. If your
> husband
> > slams the front door because he's had a terrible day at work, do
> you take
> > away his door privileges? If you have an awful day and toss your
> earrings at
> > the wall, are you denied jewelry for a certain period of time?
> >
> > Respect begets respect, and parents have to first show it to
> children before
> > they will get it back from the children. They learn by what we do
> to them,
> > not what we say they should do. If you punish her, she'll want to
> punish
> > you. If you try to control her (bed making, dressing, toothbrushing
> to your
> > timetable), she'll do what she can to seize back what control she
> can.
> >
> > If you sympathize with her pain, stop her from actually harming
> herself and
> > others while not telling her the feelings themselves are wrong,
> just her
> > expression of them could use some work, I think you'll see a more
> positive
> > response.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Pam
>
>
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>
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Mica

luv2unskool [mailto:cmr0523@...] wrote:

> (snipped examples) Life is full of real consequences.

Yes

> How can I help my children grow to be responsible adults, if I don't
> help them understand consequences? If I don't help them to be
> responsible? I'm not sure I'm getting my thoughts down correctly.

Helping a person understand potential (or even unavoidable) real
consequences is different to using a constructed "consequence" or even a
possibility that might be avoided to get another person to behave as you
wish.

> If you always let your children quit something because they don't
> feel like it, won't they grow to be quitters?

Perhaps if we rephrase this - "if you quit something because you don't
feel like doing it you will become a quitter - won't you?". I
personally don't think so but your feeling on this might be different.

I left out the "let" in that rephrase because there is a whole other
issue there - parent controlling child.

> One issue we had awhile back was volunteer work. We volunteer weekly
> at the local food bank. It was fun for my daughter at first, but
> she's losing interest. It isn't exciting to her anymore. She wanted
> to quit. An adult can't quit their job because they don't feel like
> going to work anymore. We have come to the agreement of only
> volunteering once a month, that makes us both happy.

It is great that you found a way to handle this that suits you both.
Have you had a look at the comparison you put in there? A choice to
volunteer services compared with a job? In the realm of consequences if
you don't volunteer any more you don't forgo a paycheck.

Also... an adult *can* quit their job because they don't feel like going
to work anymore - however most would carefully decide whether and when
to quit or not based on their finances, career/life change options,
sense of obligation to employers/clients and maybe other reasons.

> What if a child doesn't want to pick up their toys? They're all over
> the floor, and company is coming. "I don't want to", is what your
> child tells you.

Oh I hate being in that situation. I haven't yet worked out a way to get
what I want in such situations, but I have learned that coercing my
children to do what I wish feels extremely unpleasant. I'm hoping to
see here again a variety of ideas for handling these situations.

> You need to go to the bank, but your child doesn't want to brush her
> teeth and get dressed, she wants to read. She doesn't budge. She
> doesn't want to go. She's not listening to reason. She's not old
> enough to be left alone, and the bank closes in 1/2 hour.
> Consequences or punishment certainly seems in order, you've got to
> get the results you need, and fast! (or is there another way, please
> share with me!)

Okay another tough situation I haven't learned how to avoid or tread
through in confidence, but I can share the various things I've been
thinking about... Each time reminds me I should plan better of course.
I have to consider whether my errand really has to be done this day.
Perhaps it doesn't but I really want to, then I still have a right to
discuss ways for my wishes to fit with the family's activities. But
lets say I feel this task does *have* to be done today - I would point
out the reasons for that priority. I might also ask how I can help my
son/s (I only have boys) enjoy helping me meet this priority. Perhaps
there is something exciting I can offer for t/he/m on the way back from
the bank? Perhaps the preparation to leave is overwhelming - so maybe,
considering the urgency and deadline, maybe we can take toothbrushes in
the car, maybe we can leave our teeth this time and check each other for
*yucky* things in our teeth on our way out the door, maybe clothes can
go on over pjs, maybe we can wear easy outerclothes without
underclothes. Reading can be done in the car, even in the bank. I
don't have many neighbours but on one or two occasions, asking a nearby
acquaintance to mind a child for an hour or so could be an avenue worth
exploring.

Mica
ghal9720@...
Stawell, Victoria, Australia

Pam Hartley

> I have always believed in consequences for actions. (When I was
> working), if I didn't go to work, the consequence would be no pay, or
> possibly losing my job. If I don't take out the trash, it could
> stink up the house. If I leave toys on the floor, the dog will chew
> them up. Life is full of real consequences.
>
> How can I help my children grow to be responsible adults, if I don't
> help them understand consequences? If I don't help them to be
> responsible? I'm not sure I'm getting my thoughts down correctly.

You've answered your own question: life is full of real consequences (don't
work: lose your job; don't pick up toys: dog eats them; don't close back
door: cat gets out and gets run over, etc.) Life can also unfortunately be
made up of arbitrary consequences: toss game control, Mom takes game away.
Now if the game control ITSELF ran and hid from her, that would be a natural
real-life consequence. <g> Maybe the game designers are working on that, but
meanwhile, anything you do to her along those lines is artificial, not an
inevitable real-life consequence.


> If you always let your children quit something because they don't
> feel like it, won't they grow to be quitters?

No, I think they grow up to be people who know how to decide what they want.
My daughters have tried lots of things. Some they stick with, some they
don't, some they come back to later. My oldest, for example, has started
classes or concerted efforts to learn: gymnastics, ice skating, Irish dance,
art, reading, and I know several other things I can't even remember right
now. She quit gymnastics, reading practice, and Irish dance after awhile
(Irish dance after one lesson, and if you don't think that caused me agonies
I had to suppress -- I mean come ON, I *LOVE* Riverdance <gg>) and quit and
then went back to ice skating. Her art classes were of limited duration only
because the teacher stopped teaching and I am frankly terrified of finding
her the "wrong" art teacher so I am taking a good deal of time over helping
her get to new classes.

Through all of this, she is not afraid to try new things that interest her,
because she knows she CAN quit any time.

How many things have you started, as an adult, and felt free to quit when
they bored you? I have gone through phases of crocheting, cross-stitch,
scrapbooking (likely to get back into that sometime), dog training (ditto),
dog showing (could not pay me enough to go back) and many more. I quit at my
whim, and I don't think it's made me a worse person. I stick with faithfully
the things I really love and believe in: my marriage, homeschooling,
writing.

> One issue we had awhile back was volunteer work. We volunteer weekly
> at the local food bank. It was fun for my daughter at first, but
> she's losing interest. It isn't exciting to her anymore. She wanted
> to quit. An adult can't quit their job because they don't feel like
> going to work anymore. We have come to the agreement of only
> volunteering once a month, that makes us both happy.

An adult CAN quit his or her job if they feel like it. There are natural
consequences and choices to be made as a result of it, but adults can and do
certainly do it all the time. I have quit jobs many times, for good and bad
and indifferent reasons.

I am glad you were able to reach a compromise, but if she balks in future,
consider what a chore you may be making of helping people and the very real
possibility that she will learn to NOT want to help people in the future if
she is forced now.

>
> What if a child doesn't want to pick up their toys? They're all over
> the floor, and company is coming. "I don't want to", is what your
> child tells you.

Who invited the company? When we have people coming over, and I ask my
daughters to help and they ask why, I tell them as a half-joke, "Come on,
you don't want people to see how we REALLY live!"

If it's their company you can tell them what you expect before they ever
invite them. If it's your company, it's your cleaning problem. :) It would
be nice if they would help (and asked nicely, they probably will at least
sometimes) but it was not their choice to have people come over and disturb
all the lovely piles of things they've accumulated on the couch. :)

>
> You need to go to the bank, but your child doesn't want to brush her
> teeth and get dressed, she wants to read. She doesn't budge. She
> doesn't want to go. She's not listening to reason. She's not old
> enough to be left alone, and the bank closes in 1/2 hour.
> Consequences or punishment certainly seems in order, you've got to
> get the results you need, and fast! (or is there another way, please
> share with me!)

Well, the first question is, why wait until 1/2 hour before the bank closes
to make an apparent emergency trip? :) Good planning so as not to
inconvenience the rest of the family is a good start. Asking your husband to
do some banking at lunch is good. Online banking is lovely. Offering to do
something your daughter enjoys while you are out doing what you have to do,
or offering to do something for her at home that she likes in trade for
"coming along quietly" is another good way (yes, you can call it a bribe. I
call it being nice to my children so they will want to be nice to me and
nobody has to fight about the bank).

Also, you can take a child wearing pajamas and harboring a stinky mouth into
a bank and nobody will arrest you. :) Some people will even smile, and
commiserate.

>
> I am truly open to your thoughts, but this is new to me. I have
> consequences on the brain, and I need deprogramming! Unschooling is
> wonderful and free, but I don't want my daughter to run the
> household, where we adjust to her moods.
>

You are asking marvelous questions. Everyone in a family can run the
household as a joint adventure (Spaceship Townhouse, anyone? <g>) without
either 9 year old or Mom playing the role of Dictator, and in any family
we're all hopelessly destined to adjust to each others moods.

Pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/11/2002 2:29:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamhartley@... writes:


> . Literally, if I didn't "make" her brush
> > her teeth, she might not for a week. (yuck!) She battles me about
> > these basic things! I have tried numerous things to get these things
> > taken care of, but could use any suggestions you may have.
>

I have to share a story about teeth brushing. I had just returned from a
nurse practitioner conference. Drug company reps load you down with all sorts
of stuff. My ds Eric loved to help go through everything. He discovered a
poster of photos of the mouths of AIDS patients. Really graphic. I later
found the poster taped to his bathroom mirror. He wanted to see it everytime
he went to the bathroom to remind him of the consequences of poor dental
hygiene. I reminded him that he was not immunocompromised and probably
wouldn't have such severe results from an occasional lack of brushing. He
wanted it anyway. Kind of like a self-imposed "Clockwork Orange" scenerio. I
removed it a few weeks later (the poster made his older sister gag everytime
she went in the br). Eric does a pretty good job of brushing his teeth. It's
routine.

I know you'll not choose this technique, but I wanted to share this story. If
you haven't already, let her choose toothbrush and paste or even fluoride
rinses. The kid market is being targeted heavily. Take advantage of it. Try
brushing with her. Don't make it a battle. Kids usually come to see the
advantages of oral hygiene on their own. If she has routine dentist visits,
this also helps. There are many kid-friendly dentists out there. Our
dentist/hygienist make it fun for my two to come in.

Good luck,
Ginny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., GDobes@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/11/2002 2:29:01 PM Eastern Daylight
Time,
> pamhartley@m... writes:
>
>
> > . Literally, if I didn't "make" her brush
> > > her teeth, she might not for a week. (yuck!) She battles me
about
> > > these basic things! I have tried numerous things to get
these things
> > > taken care of, but could use any suggestions you may
have.


The post was fine, I just need to state for the record that I didn't
write the above as it says I did. I just snipped it from a post and it
got attributed to me with further snipping. Yahoogroups, making
our lives (and identifying our words <g>) fun. :)

Pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/12/2002 10:59:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamhartley@... writes:


> The post was fine, I just need to state for the record that I didn't
> write the above as it says I did. I just snipped it from a post and it
> got attributed to me with further snipping. Yahoogroups, making
> our lives (and identifying our words <g>) fun. :)
>
> Pam

Sorry about that; I've got to watch when I snip.

Ginny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

I wanted to add a thought to the toothbrushing discussion. It is
very hard of me to let go control of toothbrushing. I have never had
a cavity, and the thought of a dentist using a drill on my or my
children's teeth seems terrifying. I know intellectually that it's
not as bad as I'm imagining it to me, but it's still a real fear. I
have to make them brush their teeth or they'll get the *drill*! It
sounds almost as terrifying to me as major surgery.

On the other hand, I religiously brushed my oldest daughter's teeth
every night before bed and she ended up with 3 cavities. With my
second child, I've skipped nights here and there (because I didn't
want to wake him up if he fell asleep early or he was in a bad mood
and I didn't feel like fighting him) and he's never had a cavity
yet.

I go back and forth. Some nights I'm ok if they don't brush, other
nights I get real rigid about teethbrushing. I think I'm still
deschooling the toothbrushing. :)

Sheila

Mary Bianco

>From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>


<<I go back and forth. Some nights I'm ok if they don't brush, other
nights I get real rigid about teethbrushing. I think I'm still
deschooling the toothbrushing. :)>>


Well Sheila, if that's the biggest thing you question in your house with
your kids, you're doing far better than I am!!!!

Mary B




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Gerard Westenberg

> You need to go to the bank, but your child doesn't want to brush her> teeth and get dressed, she wants to read. She doesn't budge. She> doesn't want to go. She's not listening to reason. She's not old
> enough to be left alone, and the bank closes in 1/2 hour.> Consequences or punishment certainly seems in order, you've got to> get the results you need, and fast! (or is there another way, please
> share with me!)>
My younger four boys are big on deals - you know, we make deals about things ike this. I might say -how about we go to the bank and then somewhere of your choice or we'll listen to a bok tape in the car or do the bank tomorrow - or, how about you offer me a deal? In other words, a compromise or consensus if we feel its really necessary...Leonie W.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]