Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: "Words will never hurt me" & unschooling
Myranda
I knew I would homeschool my children without a structured curriculum by the time I was 15. From the time my oldest was about 9 mths old, I started teaching him colors and shapes by using the words all the time (here's your red ball, num num's are circles today, etc). Same with counting by the time he was 18 mths (here's two cookies, you have three blocks, here's another one, now you have four blocks). We started park days when he was 6 mths old, trips to libraries, zoos, and other attractions by one year. I know I found out a lot more information about unschooling when I first ran across the term when he was 3 years old, but I don't think that I wasn't doing it before just because I didn't know the name for it. Even if I didn't "start unschooling" til then, we've been doing it for over four years now, so I wouldn't exactly say I've just been lately figuring it out either. Honestly, I don't like the term unschooling at all - it seems negative, like un-doing something, when that is not the case at all. I much prefer child-led learning, and THAT I have definitely been doing since birth. :-)
I understand what you mean about listening to others who are more knowledgeable about medicine, musical instruments, etc. But those things to not have individual personalities. Children do. Some generalizations are fine, such as all children need to eat several times a day, all children need love, etc. But when you're talking about feelings and thoughts, those vary from child to child and no one can say "all children feel ____ when ____ happens" or "all children think ____ is bad".
Yes, there is a lack of clarity between "we call him" and "he made it up", for the simple reason that I do not share personal details very often and do tend to keep them to myself out of habit. Both statements are true, but the second just goes deeper into the subject, saying where the nicknames started. I could send you a huge, long, e-mail explaining exactly when and where our nicknames started, all the nicknames my family uses, what each person likes about them, the ones each person decided they didn't like, etc, but there's no need to do that. Without the whole story, though, some things will seem "not quite right" because you can't see how they fit, not because they don't fit. Hmm, now I'm not sure if I'm making sense.
Myranda
Everybody I know has things they would go back and change if they could.
Saying you've been unschooling since they were born, though, isn't true if
you're just lately figuring out what unschooling is and how it works.
I don't claim unschooling or homeschooling before the time Kirby would have
gone to school. Some people do, for some reasons which are sometimes good.
But retroactively saying you've unschooled since you had children isn't as
honest as it could be.
It's hard to really look at what we're doing unless we can SEE what we're
doing, and getting a story clear in our own heads is a good way to look at
it. If someone tells people "We call him this because..." and the next day
it's "He made up his own nickname" then there is a lack of clarity which goes
deeper than any one conversation, or weeklong discussion.
On the other hand, maybe long dicussions are the equivalent of people
berating me because I don't play soccer or swim. No amount of discussion is
going to change that.
Howard Gardner's description of intrapersonal intelligence (people can google
it if that's unfamiliary) in his set of multiple intelligences describes
something just as real as dancing or understanding math. BUt not everyone is
equally interested or facile with it. I'm not a dancer. I'm no jock. Some
parts of math confuse the heck out of me. Interpersonal/intrapersonal and
verbal stuff, though, come easy to me.
Trying to get someone to understand or believe that some people can perceive
interpersonal situations better than others seems to be an insult in this
culture. Sometimes we take "all men are created equal" to mean all have the
same abilities and talents.
If someone here were advising me or my kids on sports medicine, I would
really listen, because I don't know. If someone advised me about how to seal
up a shower or fix plumbing, I would really listen.
But when interpersonal or intrapersonal skills are the question, all emotion
breaks loose and those who have less of it deny "more of it" could exist.
I'm afraid I'm not clearly expressing myself, and I do know it's awkward
subject matter.
I can tell when a note doesn't match another note. Some people can't. So I
should tune the guitar, not the other person. If I say "I'm no better at
tuning this guitar," or "You know your own guitar best," that's not being
honest or helpful. If I said "I have a guitar and it bothers me that the
chords don't sound right," I could advise on tuning it even by e-mail. If
that person then said "I tuned it that way on purpose" or "It sounds fine to
me," I would wonder what the original post had been about.
Sandra
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I understand what you mean about listening to others who are more knowledgeable about medicine, musical instruments, etc. But those things to not have individual personalities. Children do. Some generalizations are fine, such as all children need to eat several times a day, all children need love, etc. But when you're talking about feelings and thoughts, those vary from child to child and no one can say "all children feel ____ when ____ happens" or "all children think ____ is bad".
Yes, there is a lack of clarity between "we call him" and "he made it up", for the simple reason that I do not share personal details very often and do tend to keep them to myself out of habit. Both statements are true, but the second just goes deeper into the subject, saying where the nicknames started. I could send you a huge, long, e-mail explaining exactly when and where our nicknames started, all the nicknames my family uses, what each person likes about them, the ones each person decided they didn't like, etc, but there's no need to do that. Without the whole story, though, some things will seem "not quite right" because you can't see how they fit, not because they don't fit. Hmm, now I'm not sure if I'm making sense.
Myranda
Everybody I know has things they would go back and change if they could.
Saying you've been unschooling since they were born, though, isn't true if
you're just lately figuring out what unschooling is and how it works.
I don't claim unschooling or homeschooling before the time Kirby would have
gone to school. Some people do, for some reasons which are sometimes good.
But retroactively saying you've unschooled since you had children isn't as
honest as it could be.
It's hard to really look at what we're doing unless we can SEE what we're
doing, and getting a story clear in our own heads is a good way to look at
it. If someone tells people "We call him this because..." and the next day
it's "He made up his own nickname" then there is a lack of clarity which goes
deeper than any one conversation, or weeklong discussion.
On the other hand, maybe long dicussions are the equivalent of people
berating me because I don't play soccer or swim. No amount of discussion is
going to change that.
Howard Gardner's description of intrapersonal intelligence (people can google
it if that's unfamiliary) in his set of multiple intelligences describes
something just as real as dancing or understanding math. BUt not everyone is
equally interested or facile with it. I'm not a dancer. I'm no jock. Some
parts of math confuse the heck out of me. Interpersonal/intrapersonal and
verbal stuff, though, come easy to me.
Trying to get someone to understand or believe that some people can perceive
interpersonal situations better than others seems to be an insult in this
culture. Sometimes we take "all men are created equal" to mean all have the
same abilities and talents.
If someone here were advising me or my kids on sports medicine, I would
really listen, because I don't know. If someone advised me about how to seal
up a shower or fix plumbing, I would really listen.
But when interpersonal or intrapersonal skills are the question, all emotion
breaks loose and those who have less of it deny "more of it" could exist.
I'm afraid I'm not clearly expressing myself, and I do know it's awkward
subject matter.
I can tell when a note doesn't match another note. Some people can't. So I
should tune the guitar, not the other person. If I say "I'm no better at
tuning this guitar," or "You know your own guitar best," that's not being
honest or helpful. If I said "I have a guitar and it bothers me that the
chords don't sound right," I could advise on tuning it even by e-mail. If
that person then said "I tuned it that way on purpose" or "It sounds fine to
me," I would wonder what the original post had been about.
Sandra
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Peggy
Myranda wrote:
have heard it anywhere outside of the family and associated it with good
things on his own.
Our children trust us and if we call them something lovingly, then of course
it is going to seem to be a good thing.
However, in your own posts here on this list you have used both his
[Lazybones] nickname and the word lazy in describing your five year old. So,
what's up with that? You are not being consistent or totally honest in your
own responses and yet you want us to believe that you are being totally
upfront and honest in your responses to him.
It really, really bothers me personally that you would use your five year old
to justify your position on this. Maybe you don't understand why that would
bother me? It is because a five year old isn't capable of making those kind of
decisions. All his information he gets from his family. To say, "He likes it
and he picked it out himself," reveals such a lack of awareness of his
strengths and abilities and your own power and influence on his life. It
reveals such a lack of awareness of child development, of what children are or
are not capable of at that young age. It isn't a valid argument to say, "This
is my family and you just don't understand what goes on in our loving
atmosphere," because children have certain developmental abilities and
strengths at certain ages and every mother knows that it is a easy cop out to
use our children to justify our own actions. Using a five year old, or any
young child for that matter, as a justification for an adult action isn't
going to gain anyone any respect here because it is such a basic thing to
understand just how powerful we are in our children's lives. Understanding
where we let off and where the child begins is really the first step in acting
responsibly and maturely towards our own children.
Peggy
> Yes, there is a lack of clarity between "we call him" and "he made it up", for the simple reason that I do notBut, the point is that he heard the name from you. He's so young he couldn't
> share personal details very often and do tend to keep them to myself out of habit. Both statements are true,
> but the second just goes deeper into the subject, saying where the nicknames started. I could send you a
> huge, long, e-mail explaining exactly when and where our nicknames started, all the nicknames my family
> uses, what each person likes about them, the ones each person decided they didn't like, etc, but there's no
> need to do that. Without the whole story, though, some things will seem "not quite right" because you can't see
> how they fit, not because they don't fit. Hmm, now I'm not sure if I'm making sense.
> Myranda
have heard it anywhere outside of the family and associated it with good
things on his own.
Our children trust us and if we call them something lovingly, then of course
it is going to seem to be a good thing.
However, in your own posts here on this list you have used both his
[Lazybones] nickname and the word lazy in describing your five year old. So,
what's up with that? You are not being consistent or totally honest in your
own responses and yet you want us to believe that you are being totally
upfront and honest in your responses to him.
It really, really bothers me personally that you would use your five year old
to justify your position on this. Maybe you don't understand why that would
bother me? It is because a five year old isn't capable of making those kind of
decisions. All his information he gets from his family. To say, "He likes it
and he picked it out himself," reveals such a lack of awareness of his
strengths and abilities and your own power and influence on his life. It
reveals such a lack of awareness of child development, of what children are or
are not capable of at that young age. It isn't a valid argument to say, "This
is my family and you just don't understand what goes on in our loving
atmosphere," because children have certain developmental abilities and
strengths at certain ages and every mother knows that it is a easy cop out to
use our children to justify our own actions. Using a five year old, or any
young child for that matter, as a justification for an adult action isn't
going to gain anyone any respect here because it is such a basic thing to
understand just how powerful we are in our children's lives. Understanding
where we let off and where the child begins is really the first step in acting
responsibly and maturely towards our own children.
Peggy
Myranda
Yes, he heard it from me to begin with. I don't see that as a bad thing. It's a word, with a meaning, just like any other. Part of my role as a parent is to introduce words and meanings to the children. Lazy is not a negative word unless used as such. Same thing with a lot of other words. "B*tch" is used negatively a lot of times now, but it's original meaning is still "female dog" and is often used as such. That's the meaning my children knew first. Words are what we make them. I'd much rather teach my children to look at the true, positive meaning of them than to look for the negative, "accepted" meaning. We've got enough negativity in the world without purposely adding more.
Yes, I called him lazy and lazybones. Those words do not contradict each other at all. How do you get that I'm not being honest if I say both things? He is "lazy" or in a "lazy" mood when he doesn't feel like getting up and doing anything, even something he says he wants to do. So are any of the rest of us, for that matter. He's just "lazy" a little more often than the rest of us. His nickname is "lazybones". I don't see where one thing makes the other untrue.
I'm not using my 5 yr old to justify anything, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. Whenever possible, we let the children (no matter how old or young) make their own choices about things. A nickname is just another one of those choices, same as what they want to eat, what they want to wear, whether or not they want to go to church, which toy they want to buy, etc.
Myranda
From: Peggy
But, the point is that he heard the name from you. He's so young he couldn't
have heard it anywhere outside of the family and associated it with good
things on his own.
Our children trust us and if we call them something lovingly, then of course
it is going to seem to be a good thing.
However, in your own posts here on this list you have used both his
[Lazybones] nickname and the word lazy in describing your five year old. So,
what's up with that? You are not being consistent or totally honest in your
own responses and yet you want us to believe that you are being totally
upfront and honest in your responses to him.
It really, really bothers me personally that you would use your five year old
to justify your position on this. Maybe you don't understand why that would
bother me? It is because a five year old isn't capable of making those kind of
decisions. All his information he gets from his family. To say, "He likes it
and he picked it out himself," reveals such a lack of awareness of his
strengths and abilities and your own power and influence on his life. It
reveals such a lack of awareness of child development, of what children are or
are not capable of at that young age. It isn't a valid argument to say, "This
is my family and you just don't understand what goes on in our loving
atmosphere," because children have certain developmental abilities and
strengths at certain ages and every mother knows that it is a easy cop out to
use our children to justify our own actions. Using a five year old, or any
young child for that matter, as a justification for an adult action isn't
going to gain anyone any respect here because it is such a basic thing to
understand just how powerful we are in our children's lives. Understanding
where we let off and where the child begins is really the first step in acting
responsibly and maturely towards our own children.
Peggy
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Yes, I called him lazy and lazybones. Those words do not contradict each other at all. How do you get that I'm not being honest if I say both things? He is "lazy" or in a "lazy" mood when he doesn't feel like getting up and doing anything, even something he says he wants to do. So are any of the rest of us, for that matter. He's just "lazy" a little more often than the rest of us. His nickname is "lazybones". I don't see where one thing makes the other untrue.
I'm not using my 5 yr old to justify anything, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. Whenever possible, we let the children (no matter how old or young) make their own choices about things. A nickname is just another one of those choices, same as what they want to eat, what they want to wear, whether or not they want to go to church, which toy they want to buy, etc.
Myranda
From: Peggy
But, the point is that he heard the name from you. He's so young he couldn't
have heard it anywhere outside of the family and associated it with good
things on his own.
Our children trust us and if we call them something lovingly, then of course
it is going to seem to be a good thing.
However, in your own posts here on this list you have used both his
[Lazybones] nickname and the word lazy in describing your five year old. So,
what's up with that? You are not being consistent or totally honest in your
own responses and yet you want us to believe that you are being totally
upfront and honest in your responses to him.
It really, really bothers me personally that you would use your five year old
to justify your position on this. Maybe you don't understand why that would
bother me? It is because a five year old isn't capable of making those kind of
decisions. All his information he gets from his family. To say, "He likes it
and he picked it out himself," reveals such a lack of awareness of his
strengths and abilities and your own power and influence on his life. It
reveals such a lack of awareness of child development, of what children are or
are not capable of at that young age. It isn't a valid argument to say, "This
is my family and you just don't understand what goes on in our loving
atmosphere," because children have certain developmental abilities and
strengths at certain ages and every mother knows that it is a easy cop out to
use our children to justify our own actions. Using a five year old, or any
young child for that matter, as a justification for an adult action isn't
going to gain anyone any respect here because it is such a basic thing to
understand just how powerful we are in our children's lives. Understanding
where we let off and where the child begins is really the first step in acting
responsibly and maturely towards our own children.
Peggy
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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Peggy
Myranda wrote:
such a great thing to be. How about if I decided to call my little girl Pussy?
It's a cute name and means kitty in England and even though we don't live in
England and it has a much different meaning here in the states, What if I
still think it is cute and I don't think about what kind of response my poor
little daughter will get when she meets some little friends at the homeschool
group who are a bit more worldly that she is and have a pretty good idea that
the name is not such a good thing for a little girl to be called. Why would I
do that? Why would any mother do that? We don't live in our houses all alone,
we live in communities and we use words to communicate with one another. We
don't make up the meanings to words, which use words which already exist to
communicate with one another.
in meeting goals or expectations you felt were appropriate for his age. You
compared him to his siblings behavior at the same age. If I did that to my
children I would call it negative because I'm aware of how labeling can hurt a
child and how comparing siblings abilities to one another can cause long
lasting hurt and resentment.
and the outside world's meaning of the word lazy?
parents. You are the adult. You are the one doing it. You are the one with the
power. I find it disturbing that you continue to deny that you have that power
despite describing in detail the ways in which you use that power.
This is not to say that I don't think you are a nice person or that you don't
have anything of value to contribute to the discussion here. I just don't know
how fair you are being to your little five year old.
Peggy
>Yeah, a negative meaning. A meaning that the rest of the world considers not
> Yes, he heard it from me to begin with. I don't see that as a bad thing. It's a word, with a meaning, just like any other.
such a great thing to be. How about if I decided to call my little girl Pussy?
It's a cute name and means kitty in England and even though we don't live in
England and it has a much different meaning here in the states, What if I
still think it is cute and I don't think about what kind of response my poor
little daughter will get when she meets some little friends at the homeschool
group who are a bit more worldly that she is and have a pretty good idea that
the name is not such a good thing for a little girl to be called. Why would I
do that? Why would any mother do that? We don't live in our houses all alone,
we live in communities and we use words to communicate with one another. We
don't make up the meanings to words, which use words which already exist to
communicate with one another.
>Part of my role as a parent is to introduce words and meanings to the children. Lazy is not a negative word unless used as such.In your post you used lazy in a negative way to describe your son's slowness
in meeting goals or expectations you felt were appropriate for his age. You
compared him to his siblings behavior at the same age. If I did that to my
children I would call it negative because I'm aware of how labeling can hurt a
child and how comparing siblings abilities to one another can cause long
lasting hurt and resentment.
>Same thing with a lot of other words. "B*tch" is used negatively a lot of times now, but it's original meaning is still "female dog" and is often used as such. That's the meaning my children knew first. Words are what we make them. I'd much rather teach my children to look at the true, positive meaning of them than to look for the negative, "accepted" meaning. We've got enough negativity in the world without purposely adding more.So, your son or his siblings are going to be protected from the outside world
and the outside world's meaning of the word lazy?
>Making real choices is not about accepting a negative nickname from one's
> Yes, I called him lazy and lazybones. Those words do not contradict each other at all. How do you get that I'm not being honest if I say both things? He is "lazy" or in a "lazy" mood when he doesn't feel like getting up and doing anything, even something he says he wants to do. So are any of the rest of us, for that matter. He's just "lazy" a little more often than the rest of us. His nickname is "lazybones". I don't see where one thing makes the other untrue.
> I'm not using my 5 yr old to justify anything, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. Whenever possible, we let the children (no matter how old or young) make their own choices about things. A nickname is just another one of those choices, same as what they want to eat, what they want to wear, whether or not they want to go to church, which toy they want to buy, etc.
> Myranda
parents. You are the adult. You are the one doing it. You are the one with the
power. I find it disturbing that you continue to deny that you have that power
despite describing in detail the ways in which you use that power.
This is not to say that I don't think you are a nice person or that you don't
have anything of value to contribute to the discussion here. I just don't know
how fair you are being to your little five year old.
Peggy
joanna514
***Words are what we make them. I'd much rather teach my children to
look at the true, positive meaning of them than to look for the
negative, "accepted" meaning.****
From Websters.
Lazy adj. Unwilling to work; moving slowly; sluggish.
Lazybones n. A lazy person.
Calling anyone, anything that is descriptive is going to influence
how that person (esp. a child) sees themselves.
I've known people hurt from being called "gifted" and people hurt
from being called "stupid and lazy"(among other things).
By using a descriptive nickname, a trait is being pointed out in that
person. The person will identify themselves with that description.
Why would any unschooler want to purposely do that to their child?
Joanna
look at the true, positive meaning of them than to look for the
negative, "accepted" meaning.****
From Websters.
Lazy adj. Unwilling to work; moving slowly; sluggish.
Lazybones n. A lazy person.
Calling anyone, anything that is descriptive is going to influence
how that person (esp. a child) sees themselves.
I've known people hurt from being called "gifted" and people hurt
from being called "stupid and lazy"(among other things).
By using a descriptive nickname, a trait is being pointed out in that
person. The person will identify themselves with that description.
Why would any unschooler want to purposely do that to their child?
Joanna
Myranda
A lot of this stuff, I've already answered, so I won't go over it again. My boys are quite used to differing opinions when it comes to a lot of things, because my parents and I have very different opinions about almost everything. I'm quite sure that they will be able to understand that some words (a lot of words, actually) are used differently by different people. Falls into the same catagory as people believe different things about God, about what homeschooling is, about what a promise means, etc. The dictionary definition of lazy is not negative in the least. They know that definition, and they will also learn that some people use the word in other ways. Simple.
Myranda
Myranda wrote:
such a great thing to be. How about if I decided to call my little girl Pussy?
It's a cute name and means kitty in England and even though we don't live in
England and it has a much different meaning here in the states, What if I
still think it is cute and I don't think about what kind of response my poor
little daughter will get when she meets some little friends at the homeschool
group who are a bit more worldly that she is and have a pretty good idea that
the name is not such a good thing for a little girl to be called. Why would I
do that? Why would any mother do that? We don't live in our houses all alone,
we live in communities and we use words to communicate with one another. We
don't make up the meanings to words, which use words which already exist to
communicate with one another.
in meeting goals or expectations you felt were appropriate for his age. You
compared him to his siblings behavior at the same age. If I did that to my
children I would call it negative because I'm aware of how labeling can hurt a
child and how comparing siblings abilities to one another can cause long
lasting hurt and resentment.
and the outside world's meaning of the word lazy?
parents. You are the adult. You are the one doing it. You are the one with the
power. I find it disturbing that you continue to deny that you have that power
despite describing in detail the ways in which you use that power.
This is not to say that I don't think you are a nice person or that you don't
have anything of value to contribute to the discussion here. I just don't know
how fair you are being to your little five year old.
Peggy
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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Myranda
Myranda wrote:
>Yeah, a negative meaning. A meaning that the rest of the world considers not
> Yes, he heard it from me to begin with. I don't see that as a bad thing. It's a word, with a meaning, just like any other.
such a great thing to be. How about if I decided to call my little girl Pussy?
It's a cute name and means kitty in England and even though we don't live in
England and it has a much different meaning here in the states, What if I
still think it is cute and I don't think about what kind of response my poor
little daughter will get when she meets some little friends at the homeschool
group who are a bit more worldly that she is and have a pretty good idea that
the name is not such a good thing for a little girl to be called. Why would I
do that? Why would any mother do that? We don't live in our houses all alone,
we live in communities and we use words to communicate with one another. We
don't make up the meanings to words, which use words which already exist to
communicate with one another.
>Part of my role as a parent is to introduce words and meanings to the children. Lazy is not a negative word unless used as such.In your post you used lazy in a negative way to describe your son's slowness
in meeting goals or expectations you felt were appropriate for his age. You
compared him to his siblings behavior at the same age. If I did that to my
children I would call it negative because I'm aware of how labeling can hurt a
child and how comparing siblings abilities to one another can cause long
lasting hurt and resentment.
>Same thing with a lot of other words. "B*tch" is used negatively a lot of times now, but it's original meaning is still "female dog" and is often used as such. That's the meaning my children knew first. Words are what we make them. I'd much rather teach my children to look at the true, positive meaning of them than to look for the negative, "accepted" meaning. We've got enough negativity in the world without purposely adding more.So, your son or his siblings are going to be protected from the outside world
and the outside world's meaning of the word lazy?
>Making real choices is not about accepting a negative nickname from one's
> Yes, I called him lazy and lazybones. Those words do not contradict each other at all. How do you get that I'm not being honest if I say both things? He is "lazy" or in a "lazy" mood when he doesn't feel like getting up and doing anything, even something he says he wants to do. So are any of the rest of us, for that matter. He's just "lazy" a little more often than the rest of us. His nickname is "lazybones". I don't see where one thing makes the other untrue.
> I'm not using my 5 yr old to justify anything, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. Whenever possible, we let the children (no matter how old or young) make their own choices about things. A nickname is just another one of those choices, same as what they want to eat, what they want to wear, whether or not they want to go to church, which toy they want to buy, etc.
> Myranda
parents. You are the adult. You are the one doing it. You are the one with the
power. I find it disturbing that you continue to deny that you have that power
despite describing in detail the ways in which you use that power.
This is not to say that I don't think you are a nice person or that you don't
have anything of value to contribute to the discussion here. I just don't know
how fair you are being to your little five year old.
Peggy
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