Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2431
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/3/2002 7:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
The answers to these questions so often don't seem to be heard or are sort of
overlooked. I think that's because they don't entirely sound like "answers"
to people who are looking for another concrete rule to replace the one
they're giving up. What we really give them are very general principles and
examples of how those play out in our own specific and idiosyncratic lives -
but that's hard to "get" when you're looking for a rule.
If we don't have a rule that says "bedtime is at 9 pm," then what bedtime
rule DO we have? Lost of times people think that the new rule is then ONLY,
"bedtime is whenever it happens." They think that means the parents stop
thinking about the child's sleep needs. But, in all the families that I know
who have no rule about bedtimes, the parents are consciously and actively
helping their kids get a good sense of taking care of their sleep needs. The
rule doesn't just flip-flop from bedtime to "no bedtime" -- there is a whole
huge different way of handling and learning about sleep needs that replaces
the entire concept of a "bedtime."
To change the subject but make the same point...
People at park day were having a conversation about video games and some of
us were talking about not setting limits on them. As usual, someone assumed
that that meant that our kids would be spending 24 hours a day, day after
day, only on that with no other interests developing, etc. So we were talking
about that - about all the OTHER stuff that we do and how they learn etc.
(You've heard it all before, here, so I'm not repeating all that - but it was
a lot of discussion there at the park.)
Then - there was this startling moment when one person said, "But it is so
expensive to buy video games - how can you let them have unlimited video
games without going broke? We could never afford that."
Silence.
Wow. Talk about flip-flopping. She took us arguing against rules like "You
may have exactly one hour per day of video game time," or "You may spend the
afternoon playing absolutely anything you want as long as it doesn't involve
tv or videogames" as saying that we'd buy our kids an unlimited stock of
whatever videogames they wanted?
Well - some of the kids happened to BE there right then and heard that bit
and THEY reacted immediately with, "We usually have to buy our OWN games."
She was somewhat bewildered, I think. In fact, I think it was news to her
that we didn't control the videogame time of our kids with arbitrary rules.
The thing that amused me was that she'd heard "unlimited videogames" as
meaning that we would BUY them whatever they wanted whenever they wanted
them.
Talk about a failure to communicate!!! When we say what we do NOT do (we
don't have bedtimes, for example) we sometimes can't even imagine what people
might be thinking we do do <G>.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> So everyone's concentrating on discussingWhat do you do instead of ________________ (fill in the blank)?
> the no rules part and what parents do instead of rules is said but no one
> notices it in all the noise about no rules.
The answers to these questions so often don't seem to be heard or are sort of
overlooked. I think that's because they don't entirely sound like "answers"
to people who are looking for another concrete rule to replace the one
they're giving up. What we really give them are very general principles and
examples of how those play out in our own specific and idiosyncratic lives -
but that's hard to "get" when you're looking for a rule.
If we don't have a rule that says "bedtime is at 9 pm," then what bedtime
rule DO we have? Lost of times people think that the new rule is then ONLY,
"bedtime is whenever it happens." They think that means the parents stop
thinking about the child's sleep needs. But, in all the families that I know
who have no rule about bedtimes, the parents are consciously and actively
helping their kids get a good sense of taking care of their sleep needs. The
rule doesn't just flip-flop from bedtime to "no bedtime" -- there is a whole
huge different way of handling and learning about sleep needs that replaces
the entire concept of a "bedtime."
To change the subject but make the same point...
People at park day were having a conversation about video games and some of
us were talking about not setting limits on them. As usual, someone assumed
that that meant that our kids would be spending 24 hours a day, day after
day, only on that with no other interests developing, etc. So we were talking
about that - about all the OTHER stuff that we do and how they learn etc.
(You've heard it all before, here, so I'm not repeating all that - but it was
a lot of discussion there at the park.)
Then - there was this startling moment when one person said, "But it is so
expensive to buy video games - how can you let them have unlimited video
games without going broke? We could never afford that."
Silence.
Wow. Talk about flip-flopping. She took us arguing against rules like "You
may have exactly one hour per day of video game time," or "You may spend the
afternoon playing absolutely anything you want as long as it doesn't involve
tv or videogames" as saying that we'd buy our kids an unlimited stock of
whatever videogames they wanted?
Well - some of the kids happened to BE there right then and heard that bit
and THEY reacted immediately with, "We usually have to buy our OWN games."
She was somewhat bewildered, I think. In fact, I think it was news to her
that we didn't control the videogame time of our kids with arbitrary rules.
The thing that amused me was that she'd heard "unlimited videogames" as
meaning that we would BUY them whatever they wanted whenever they wanted
them.
Talk about a failure to communicate!!! When we say what we do NOT do (we
don't have bedtimes, for example) we sometimes can't even imagine what people
might be thinking we do do <G>.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/3/2002 7:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
opinions and feelings that your kids will show YOU when they are teens. It is
so easy for a teenager to say to her/himself "My parents are always
angry/yelling/controlling/not listening/suspicious/untrusting/whatever
ANYWAY, so I might as well _____________ (fill in the blank).
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> When my son was very small someone mentioned to me (or perhaps I read it)It also pays off in how much kindness and respect and caring about your
> that the kindness we show our children when they are small is an investment
>
> we make in the care of our grandchildren. So, while your husband and
> extended family may not get it at all, your children are getting an
> excellent education in parenting.
opinions and feelings that your kids will show YOU when they are teens. It is
so easy for a teenager to say to her/himself "My parents are always
angry/yelling/controlling/not listening/suspicious/untrusting/whatever
ANYWAY, so I might as well _____________ (fill in the blank).
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/3/2002 7:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
was just a few weeks ago). I kind of looked at him quizzically and he
muttered something about more growth hormone being secreted then and I didn't
question him further -- you know how doctors' appts are -- not a lot of chat
time <G>.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> << My doctor said that it is true that most growth happens at night. I haveAsleep makes more sense. I didn't really give it any thought at the time (it
> no
> idea why and never looked into it - but he said it as if it was a fact. >>
>
> At night or when people are asleep?
was just a few weeks ago). I kind of looked at him quizzically and he
muttered something about more growth hormone being secreted then and I didn't
question him further -- you know how doctors' appts are -- not a lot of chat
time <G>.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/3/2002 7:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
the daytime.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> He thinks being asleep in the daylight won't cause sleeping-functions toIt might have to do with how LONG someone sleeps - usually shorter times in
> work
> the same way?
the daytime.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachel Ann
I think it might have to the circadian cycle---and the concept the body was meant to ccle in relationship with the sun.
Just like many women give birth at night, or at least start laboring at night, and give birth in the early morning, because, so the theory goes, once-upon-a-time, this was safest. Everyone else was asleep and mom could labor without being especially vulernable, as she wasn't in shape, natch, to respond to an attack.
be well,
Rachel Ann
Just like many women give birth at night, or at least start laboring at night, and give birth in the early morning, because, so the theory goes, once-upon-a-time, this was safest. Everyone else was asleep and mom could labor without being especially vulernable, as she wasn't in shape, natch, to respond to an attack.
be well,
Rachel Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2431
In a message dated 10/3/2002 7:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> He thinks being asleep in the daylight won't cause sleeping-functions to
> work
> the same way?
It might have to do with how LONG someone sleeps - usually shorter times in
the daytime.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
My granny always said that people should go to bed when the sun goes down, and get up when it comes up. She also swore that children who spent their lives in the sun (whether outside or in a house full of open windows) grew up to be healthier and smarter! I don't know how true it is, but she's been right about everything else she said, so I don't doubt her! :-)
Myranda
I think it might have to the circadian cycle---and the concept the body was meant to ccle in relationship with the sun.
Just like many women give birth at night, or at least start laboring at night, and give birth in the early morning, because, so the theory goes, once-upon-a-time, this was safest. Everyone else was asleep and mom could labor without being especially vulernable, as she wasn't in shape, natch, to respond to an attack.
be well,
Rachel Ann
Myranda
I think it might have to the circadian cycle---and the concept the body was meant to ccle in relationship with the sun.
Just like many women give birth at night, or at least start laboring at night, and give birth in the early morning, because, so the theory goes, once-upon-a-time, this was safest. Everyone else was asleep and mom could labor without being especially vulernable, as she wasn't in shape, natch, to respond to an attack.
be well,
Rachel Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2431
In a message dated 10/3/2002 7:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> He thinks being asleep in the daylight won't cause sleeping-functions to
> work
> the same way?
It might have to do with how LONG someone sleeps - usually shorter times in
the daytime.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
> It also pays off in how much kindness and respect and caringI was watching Dateline the other night. They had a story on a teen party
> about your
> opinions and feelings that your kids will show YOU when they
> are teens. It is
> so easy for a teenager to say to her/himself "My parents are always
> angry/yelling/controlling/not
> listening/suspicious/untrusting/whatever
> ANYWAY, so I might as well _____________ (fill in the blank).
that got out of control and one girl knifed another girl killing her. This was
a very "safe" suburban community and the girl who did the killing was from
a very rich family. I wasn't as interested in the story as I was in watching
the teens they talked with. One of the things that stood out was several teens saying
that these drinking parties were their time to get away from their parents. To
just be able to be themselves. They just wanted to get away from their parents for
awhile.
I found this sad. I have a few friends with teenagers and they all tell me to
enjoy my kids while they are young, that once they grow up, they don't listen
to you or respect you. Not a very nice picture of the future.
It is so nice to hear Pam and Sandra and others here with teens say that it does not
need to be this way. I have been making some conscious changes in the way that I
interact with the boys (mostly looking for ways to say yes and when disagreements
happen I have been modeling (by becoming involved with) how to reach a solution,
rather then just telling them what to do) and things seem to be running smoother.
I know that I have been better able to handle some things that normally would
have turned into a shouting match. And it seems as if the boys are being more
cooperative lately. It might be that I am just looking for it more, but even if
that is the case that is a good thing!
Stephanie E.
Betsy
Cool insight! I think that some people may even think that if a kid has
"no bedtime" then he might, just might NEVER go to bed.
(That can't be good!)
Betsy
**but that's hard to "get" when you're looking for a rule.
If we don't have a rule that says "bedtime is at 9 pm," then what
bedtime
rule DO we have? Lost of times people think that the new rule is then
ONLY,
"bedtime is whenever it happens." They think that means the parents stop
thinking about the child's sleep needs. But, in all the families that I know
who have no rule about bedtimes, the parents are consciously and
actively
helping their kids get a good sense of taking care of their sleep needs. The
rule doesn't just flip-flop from bedtime to "no bedtime" -- there is a
whole
huge different way of handling and learning about sleep needs that
replaces
the entire concept of a "bedtime."**
"no bedtime" then he might, just might NEVER go to bed.
(That can't be good!)
Betsy
**but that's hard to "get" when you're looking for a rule.
If we don't have a rule that says "bedtime is at 9 pm," then what
bedtime
rule DO we have? Lost of times people think that the new rule is then
ONLY,
"bedtime is whenever it happens." They think that means the parents stop
thinking about the child's sleep needs. But, in all the families that I know
who have no rule about bedtimes, the parents are consciously and
actively
helping their kids get a good sense of taking care of their sleep needs. The
rule doesn't just flip-flop from bedtime to "no bedtime" -- there is a
whole
huge different way of handling and learning about sleep needs that
replaces
the entire concept of a "bedtime."**
Mary Bianco
>From: "Stephanie Elms" <stephanie.elms@...><<It is so nice to hear Pam and Sandra and others here with teens say that
it does not need to be this way. I have been making some conscious changes
in the way that I interact with the boys (mostly looking for ways to say yes
and when disagreements happen I have been modeling (by becoming involved
with) how to reach a solution, rather then just telling them what to do) and
things seem to be running smoother.
I know that I have been better able to handle some things that normally
would have turned into a shouting match. And it seems as if the boys are
being more cooperative lately. It might be that I am just looking for it
more, but even if that is the case that is a good thing!>>
I can also atest to the fact that there is life after adolescents!! And my
16 year old is a school child. We did indeed have out share of problems but
I really attribute that to me not knowing and having the proper info to deal
with her and the way she was brought up as a small child. Of course some of
it has to do with how her life was and also I believe school and peer
pressure goes in with that. But we were able to weather the storm.
When she comes with us on park days with the homeschoolers, I've had so many
moms of young girls say they hope they can be the way Tara and I are with
each other when their daughters are teens. Everyone says we always look like
we are enjoying each other so much. You know why?? We are!!!
She has no problem being very affectionate with me in public and even when
her friends are around. She is even amazed at how her friends feel about
their parents. She'll be the first to admit how much she loves her mommy.
When she went away in the summer on a week cruise, she cried in bed every
night with her best friend that she missed me! When she came home, she made
me promise I would never leave her!!! I wasn't the one that left!!!! She
does know she will leave us one day, but she said it will only be down the
street!!!!
Mary B
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Stephanie Elms
> When she comes with us on park days with the homeschoolers,You are very lucky! It is such a shame that more parents of teenagers
> I've had so many
> moms of young girls say they hope they can be the way Tara
> and I are with
> each other when their daughters are teens. Everyone says we
> always look like
> we are enjoying each other so much. You know why?? We are!!!
don't get to experience this. Our culture seems to push early
"independence" and forced separation from parents and then when the teen
years come around parents wonder why their teens don't want to be around
them. Too bad more parents don't just enjoy their kids...that is what I
am really trying to do now....
Stephanie E.
>