Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Getting to bed (was Tools ofconvincing)
Lisa M. C. Bentley
I agree with the arbitrary bedtime thing being completely unfair to
children. My youngest (just turned 2) has no bedtime and my oldest
(just turned 6) didn't until very recently. Here is why she does now:
Zoë is a child that cannot sleep in the day, even if the room is pitch
black. She gave up naps when she was about 3 weeks old or so. There is
something in her physical body that makes her need nighttime hours to
sleep. She has been like this since the day she was born and if I
wasn't holding her she would not sleep ever until she was a little over
3 years (I became very capable of using the toilet whilst holding her).
She also has no sense of tiredness in herself. If you ask her if she is
tired, the answer will always be no. If you tell her that the signs
that her body is showing are sleepy signs, she will argue and stay up
even longer.
Most children have the ability to go to sleep after a while from sheer
exhaustion. Not this child. We've seen her literally stay up for 3
days straight and only then collapse with breastfeeding (if I happened
to not be home, she would not go to sleep). We've started having
behavioral problems that affect the entire family due to her being able
to live (but NOT thrive) on 4 or so hours of sleep. DH and I prefer to
go to bed between 12 and 2AM, and so we always had her do the same with
us. This DOES NOT work if the child will wake up at 6AM. Children
really do need more sleep than adults. They are growing! The younger
the child, the more they need to sleep (although teenagers need quite a
lot of sleep, too). I need 9 hours of sleep to feel refreshed, but I
seldom get more than 6 myself. My daughter is not a nice person to be
around unless she has had at least 8 (preferably 10). She has never
slept in a car, not even on a 24 hour straight drive that we did when
she was almost 3.
For her health and every one in this house's sanity, we started a
bedtime with her. She understands it, but doesn't always agree with
it. On the days that we have "allowed" her to stay up late (traveling,
guests, just because, etc.), we have all (including her!)regretted it
for about 3-4 days
later. It really takes her that long to get back into a good sleep
cycle. It also takes her about 1.5-2 hours to wind down BY HERSELF to
be able to fall asleep. If someone checks in on her, the clock starts
all over again and we regret it for days. We are always gentle and kind
in this, but she NEEDS this for her health. I hate it, but she loves it
and is thriving on this routine. I, personally, hate routines and love
to do things on the spot. She hates that, and her needs and wants come
before mine. It took us 5.5 years of living her need for consistent
going to sleep time for us to come to the conclusion that she needs a
bedtime. DH and I always felt that bedtimes were horrible and cruel for
us as children, however we both could sleep anywhere as children. This
child cannot and will not. It is physically impossible for her.
I only say all this so that those of you who have such strict "No
Bedtime" rules can see that the rigidness of that statement is just as
unhealthy as the rigidness of an arbitrary bedtime based on what the
clock says. My daughter's bedtime is based on sunset and she rises
around sunrise, her physical choice of hours- definitely NOT mine. This
has made us all live in less of a sleep deprived zombie state and it is
a wonderful live saver. I am NOT a good mother when I haven't slept in
days and she is not a very nice person when she hasn't slept, either.
-Lisa
P.S. We coslept with her until age 4.5. I breastfed her daily until
age 4ish, then periodically even still (all her choice). She gets loads
of physical contact, so please don't try to say that I wasn't fulfilling
her physical contact needs as an infant. I definitely have been doing
this. What I wasn't fulfilling was her lack of physical contact needs.
She has proven to me that quite a few people NEED time alone. Her
bedtime
actually makes me sad, since I love to be with her, it is her that
doesn't do well with us. Her bedtime is completely for her and has
nothing to do with the needs of the parents.
children. My youngest (just turned 2) has no bedtime and my oldest
(just turned 6) didn't until very recently. Here is why she does now:
Zoë is a child that cannot sleep in the day, even if the room is pitch
black. She gave up naps when she was about 3 weeks old or so. There is
something in her physical body that makes her need nighttime hours to
sleep. She has been like this since the day she was born and if I
wasn't holding her she would not sleep ever until she was a little over
3 years (I became very capable of using the toilet whilst holding her).
She also has no sense of tiredness in herself. If you ask her if she is
tired, the answer will always be no. If you tell her that the signs
that her body is showing are sleepy signs, she will argue and stay up
even longer.
Most children have the ability to go to sleep after a while from sheer
exhaustion. Not this child. We've seen her literally stay up for 3
days straight and only then collapse with breastfeeding (if I happened
to not be home, she would not go to sleep). We've started having
behavioral problems that affect the entire family due to her being able
to live (but NOT thrive) on 4 or so hours of sleep. DH and I prefer to
go to bed between 12 and 2AM, and so we always had her do the same with
us. This DOES NOT work if the child will wake up at 6AM. Children
really do need more sleep than adults. They are growing! The younger
the child, the more they need to sleep (although teenagers need quite a
lot of sleep, too). I need 9 hours of sleep to feel refreshed, but I
seldom get more than 6 myself. My daughter is not a nice person to be
around unless she has had at least 8 (preferably 10). She has never
slept in a car, not even on a 24 hour straight drive that we did when
she was almost 3.
For her health and every one in this house's sanity, we started a
bedtime with her. She understands it, but doesn't always agree with
it. On the days that we have "allowed" her to stay up late (traveling,
guests, just because, etc.), we have all (including her!)regretted it
for about 3-4 days
later. It really takes her that long to get back into a good sleep
cycle. It also takes her about 1.5-2 hours to wind down BY HERSELF to
be able to fall asleep. If someone checks in on her, the clock starts
all over again and we regret it for days. We are always gentle and kind
in this, but she NEEDS this for her health. I hate it, but she loves it
and is thriving on this routine. I, personally, hate routines and love
to do things on the spot. She hates that, and her needs and wants come
before mine. It took us 5.5 years of living her need for consistent
going to sleep time for us to come to the conclusion that she needs a
bedtime. DH and I always felt that bedtimes were horrible and cruel for
us as children, however we both could sleep anywhere as children. This
child cannot and will not. It is physically impossible for her.
I only say all this so that those of you who have such strict "No
Bedtime" rules can see that the rigidness of that statement is just as
unhealthy as the rigidness of an arbitrary bedtime based on what the
clock says. My daughter's bedtime is based on sunset and she rises
around sunrise, her physical choice of hours- definitely NOT mine. This
has made us all live in less of a sleep deprived zombie state and it is
a wonderful live saver. I am NOT a good mother when I haven't slept in
days and she is not a very nice person when she hasn't slept, either.
-Lisa
P.S. We coslept with her until age 4.5. I breastfed her daily until
age 4ish, then periodically even still (all her choice). She gets loads
of physical contact, so please don't try to say that I wasn't fulfilling
her physical contact needs as an infant. I definitely have been doing
this. What I wasn't fulfilling was her lack of physical contact needs.
She has proven to me that quite a few people NEED time alone. Her
bedtime
actually makes me sad, since I love to be with her, it is her that
doesn't do well with us. Her bedtime is completely for her and has
nothing to do with the needs of the parents.
Fetteroll
on 10/2/02 9:57 PM, Lisa M. C. Bentley at cottrellbentley@... wrote:
beginning point to find the best ways to meet each child's specific needs.
In your daughter's case it would be helping her to recognize the signs of
tiredness -- without telling her what she's feeling if that doesn't work ;-)
-- by starting bedtime routines or things that were calming and relaxing for
her when tiredness was starting to show or darkness was coming on. Good
things that she wanted to do. Not in a "this is what you need so this is
what we're going to do" way.
I think the identifying problems and seeking solutions part of the process
doesn't get enough "air time" because these discussions almost always take
off after someone insists that rules are necessary or insists people are
suggesting hands-off parenting. So everyone's concentrating on discussing
the no rules part and what parents do instead of rules is said but no one
notices it in all the noise about no rules.
Even blank slate doesn't get to the idea since it will lead a rules type to
the conclusion that it means rules are based on a child's needs rather than
age, like 8PM bedtime for one child and 9PM for another child who needs less
sleep.
Getting from the idea of parents finding the proper size container for
optimal child growth to the idea of nurturing growth in the container that
life provides is hard! Our society just doesn't have a ready-made model of
the second to describe what people mean when they say no rules. So people
trying to understand it put the ideas into the models they already know:
permissiveness, hands-off parenting, letting the kids raise themselves, Lord
of the Flies (someone mentioned recently).
Joyce
> I only say all this so that those of you who have such strict "NoIt's not a rule. It's the absence of rules. It's a blank slate to use as a
> Bedtime" rules can see that the rigidness of that statement is just as
> unhealthy as the rigidness of an arbitrary bedtime based on what the
> clock says.
beginning point to find the best ways to meet each child's specific needs.
In your daughter's case it would be helping her to recognize the signs of
tiredness -- without telling her what she's feeling if that doesn't work ;-)
-- by starting bedtime routines or things that were calming and relaxing for
her when tiredness was starting to show or darkness was coming on. Good
things that she wanted to do. Not in a "this is what you need so this is
what we're going to do" way.
I think the identifying problems and seeking solutions part of the process
doesn't get enough "air time" because these discussions almost always take
off after someone insists that rules are necessary or insists people are
suggesting hands-off parenting. So everyone's concentrating on discussing
the no rules part and what parents do instead of rules is said but no one
notices it in all the noise about no rules.
Even blank slate doesn't get to the idea since it will lead a rules type to
the conclusion that it means rules are based on a child's needs rather than
age, like 8PM bedtime for one child and 9PM for another child who needs less
sleep.
Getting from the idea of parents finding the proper size container for
optimal child growth to the idea of nurturing growth in the container that
life provides is hard! Our society just doesn't have a ready-made model of
the second to describe what people mean when they say no rules. So people
trying to understand it put the ideas into the models they already know:
permissiveness, hands-off parenting, letting the kids raise themselves, Lord
of the Flies (someone mentioned recently).
Joyce