hearts vs. money
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/1/02 10:30:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Sandra, I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything but I was reading the
unschooling boards and read about the boy who wouldn't shower. You suggested
to pay him a dollar. I don't understand the difference between the two? >>
I am writing this without reading any other responses, so I hope it hasn't
already been said.
I see it this way.
The not showering is only annoying to those around the teen. Not dangerous,
not psychologically harmful, only annoying because of smell issues.
It doesn't truly hurt the teen to not shower either. So you're paying him for
the convenience of not having to smell some stink. It's not a reward, it's
simply telling him that you are willing to pay for a convenience which is not
absolutely necessary.
On the other hand, hitting is harmful.
It's emotionally and physically damaging. There is a motivating factor behind
the hitting which indicates a lack of self control....normal for certain
ages, but not something you can let go.
It's not about paying for a convenience....it's about safety, and nurture and
behavioral urges. It's about allowing abuse to take place. And a child must
learn self control at some point or else you have an abusive adult harming
other humans.
I believe self control grows on it's own to some degree. But in the mean time
there is a lot a parent can do to protect the weaker one and give the
agressor more tools to use.
It is our job to help them get more tools.
You don't give them tools by controlling them. You don't help them understand
their own motivations or be self analytical by rewarding and controlling.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Sandra, I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything but I was reading the
unschooling boards and read about the boy who wouldn't shower. You suggested
to pay him a dollar. I don't understand the difference between the two? >>
I am writing this without reading any other responses, so I hope it hasn't
already been said.
I see it this way.
The not showering is only annoying to those around the teen. Not dangerous,
not psychologically harmful, only annoying because of smell issues.
It doesn't truly hurt the teen to not shower either. So you're paying him for
the convenience of not having to smell some stink. It's not a reward, it's
simply telling him that you are willing to pay for a convenience which is not
absolutely necessary.
On the other hand, hitting is harmful.
It's emotionally and physically damaging. There is a motivating factor behind
the hitting which indicates a lack of self control....normal for certain
ages, but not something you can let go.
It's not about paying for a convenience....it's about safety, and nurture and
behavioral urges. It's about allowing abuse to take place. And a child must
learn self control at some point or else you have an abusive adult harming
other humans.
I believe self control grows on it's own to some degree. But in the mean time
there is a lot a parent can do to protect the weaker one and give the
agressor more tools to use.
It is our job to help them get more tools.
You don't give them tools by controlling them. You don't help them understand
their own motivations or be self analytical by rewarding and controlling.
Ren
Myranda
Just wanted to adress this last sentence - in my son's case, his motivation is to purposely hurt someone else. He knows and understands that is wrong, but does not care. What we do with the hearts is not a reward so much as a reminder. It's not money he can spend on anything, he doesn't get special things he can't get any other way with it. The hearts serve as a reminder to be loving and gentle, and he can trade them in to do activities like getting a special color bath that night or staying up 15 minutes past his bedtime or checking out an extra book on library day. Nothing big, nothing worth very much, but just enough to remind him that he did a good job that day.
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
You don't help them understand
their own motivations or be self analytical by rewarding and controlling.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
You don't help them understand
their own motivations or be self analytical by rewarding and controlling.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: "Myranda" <myrandab@...><<Just wanted to adress this last sentence - in my son's case, his
motivation is to purposely hurt someone else. He knows and understands that
is wrong, but does not care. What we do with the hearts is not a reward so
much as a reminder. It's not money he can spend on anything, he doesn't get
special things he can't get any other way with it. The hearts serve as a
reminder to be loving and gentle, and he can trade them in to do activities
like getting a special color bath that night or staying up 15 minutes past
his bedtime or checking out an extra book on library day. Nothing big,
nothing worth very much, but just enough to remind him that he did a good
job that day.>>
Okay I'm just talking out loud here. It seems that so far, the things you
are giving you son with the heart is something big and worth something to
him. He obviously enjoys what these things are or what he gets to do. So
maybe you see it as not worth much but he sees it differently. Wonder if he
wasn't harmful, then he couldn't get the chance to be 'good' and have his
rewards. So to get the rewards, he has to show the other side too or else
the rewards would eventually stop. Have you tried to give him a color bath
when he wants and let him stay up late when he wants and check out an extra
book when he wants.
Personally I can't imagine with holding those things from a child if thats
what they want. Big deal to a kid but not to a parent. Just throwing out
ideas.
Mary B
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Myranda
No, the things he uses the hearts for can be had any time, just by him asking for them. Except for the extra library book - DH has a limit of 20 books a week for him, so it's not like there's a big difference between 20 and 21 books.
We do not use the heart system when we're not at home, so he has plenty of chances to act right without the "reward" of getting hearts. However, he does not do so unless we are somewhere that keeps him very busy and interested. If he goes to my parents house, for example, he ends up having to sit alone in a room or still on the couch because he just goes wild and will/can not calm down on his own.
The hearts give him a tangible reminder of loving, soft feelings plus are a reminder that nice, sweet behavior is better than hurtful behavior. They have made such a huge difference here, he is so much happier and his little brother is not constantly crying from being hurt.
Myranda
Okay I'm just talking out loud here. It seems that so far, the things you
are giving you son with the heart is something big and worth something to
him. He obviously enjoys what these things are or what he gets to do. So
maybe you see it as not worth much but he sees it differently. Wonder if he
wasn't harmful, then he couldn't get the chance to be 'good' and have his
rewards. So to get the rewards, he has to show the other side too or else
the rewards would eventually stop. Have you tried to give him a color bath
when he wants and let him stay up late when he wants and check out an extra
book when he wants.
Personally I can't imagine with holding those things from a child if thats
what they want. Big deal to a kid but not to a parent. Just throwing out
ideas.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We do not use the heart system when we're not at home, so he has plenty of chances to act right without the "reward" of getting hearts. However, he does not do so unless we are somewhere that keeps him very busy and interested. If he goes to my parents house, for example, he ends up having to sit alone in a room or still on the couch because he just goes wild and will/can not calm down on his own.
The hearts give him a tangible reminder of loving, soft feelings plus are a reminder that nice, sweet behavior is better than hurtful behavior. They have made such a huge difference here, he is so much happier and his little brother is not constantly crying from being hurt.
Myranda
Okay I'm just talking out loud here. It seems that so far, the things you
are giving you son with the heart is something big and worth something to
him. He obviously enjoys what these things are or what he gets to do. So
maybe you see it as not worth much but he sees it differently. Wonder if he
wasn't harmful, then he couldn't get the chance to be 'good' and have his
rewards. So to get the rewards, he has to show the other side too or else
the rewards would eventually stop. Have you tried to give him a color bath
when he wants and let him stay up late when he wants and check out an extra
book when he wants.
Personally I can't imagine with holding those things from a child if thats
what they want. Big deal to a kid but not to a parent. Just throwing out
ideas.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
> Sandra, I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything but I was reading theYou can also think of it as like paying him to mow the lawn rather than a
> unschooling boards and read about the boy who wouldn't shower. You suggested
> to pay him a dollar. I don't understand the difference between the two?
reward to train him to do the right thing. If he doesn't care about the
shower (or the lawn ;-) then it makes sense pay him to do something for the
mom that she wants done.
But, as Sandra said, it was just one of a bunch of ideas.
Joyce