needs vs wants (long)
rebecca
Good morning, my name is Rebecca and I'm new to this group. I've been
reading the posts and slowly working my way through the archives. I
have enjoyed reading about trusting your children and giving them
control over their own lives. I realized while reading everything
that everyone was saying that my dh and I had gotten in the habit of
saying no and we are trying very hard to change this, both of us came
from families that were very controlling and that was/is what we
know. We also know that we don't wan't our kids feeling the way that
we did growing up. I do have a couple of questions, my oldest(Jaiden
4yrs) thinks that it is the funniest thing in the world to hurt his
younger brother (Avery 1yr). example: This morning I found him
sitting on Avery and shoving a plastic screwdriver into his mouth.
This is a comman accurance, and I'm at a loss, my mother say's to
spank him and make him throw away whatever it is that he used to hurt
Avery with and then make him spend the day sitting on his bed, she
says that this is what she did to keep me from hurting my younger
brother and that after about 3 times it worked. This seems totally
harsh to me but talking to Jaiden dosen't seem to work, he tells me
that it's funny to make Avery scream and if I try talking to him more
about it, tell him that Avery does't think it's funny... Jaiden tells
me that I talk to much and he flops down and pretends to go to sleep
(snors and all)I just don't know what to do, I'm sure that a lot of
it is his age and ajusting to a VERY hectic year, but I don't think
that it makes it okay for him to hurt his brother, am I wrong? The
other question I had was, how do you balance out their (the kids)
wants over your needs? example: It's 6:00am and I've been up all
night with Avery (cutting in two molars) I've finally managed to get
him and me asleep and in comes Jaiden demanding that I get up and
make him mac&cheese, the left overs in the fridge are toooooo cold. I
tell him that I can make it in a little bit after Avery and I get
some sleep. He then preceads to make as much noise as possable so
that Avery wakes up. So, I needed to sleep but wasn't able to and he
got the mac&cheese that he wanted. I keep thinking that there has to
be a better way to do this but I can't figure it out.
TIA Rebecca
P.S. re-reading this kinda makes Jaiden sound bad, and he's not he's
a wonderful, energetic little boy that keeps me on my toes. I just
am not sure how to deal with him.
reading the posts and slowly working my way through the archives. I
have enjoyed reading about trusting your children and giving them
control over their own lives. I realized while reading everything
that everyone was saying that my dh and I had gotten in the habit of
saying no and we are trying very hard to change this, both of us came
from families that were very controlling and that was/is what we
know. We also know that we don't wan't our kids feeling the way that
we did growing up. I do have a couple of questions, my oldest(Jaiden
4yrs) thinks that it is the funniest thing in the world to hurt his
younger brother (Avery 1yr). example: This morning I found him
sitting on Avery and shoving a plastic screwdriver into his mouth.
This is a comman accurance, and I'm at a loss, my mother say's to
spank him and make him throw away whatever it is that he used to hurt
Avery with and then make him spend the day sitting on his bed, she
says that this is what she did to keep me from hurting my younger
brother and that after about 3 times it worked. This seems totally
harsh to me but talking to Jaiden dosen't seem to work, he tells me
that it's funny to make Avery scream and if I try talking to him more
about it, tell him that Avery does't think it's funny... Jaiden tells
me that I talk to much and he flops down and pretends to go to sleep
(snors and all)I just don't know what to do, I'm sure that a lot of
it is his age and ajusting to a VERY hectic year, but I don't think
that it makes it okay for him to hurt his brother, am I wrong? The
other question I had was, how do you balance out their (the kids)
wants over your needs? example: It's 6:00am and I've been up all
night with Avery (cutting in two molars) I've finally managed to get
him and me asleep and in comes Jaiden demanding that I get up and
make him mac&cheese, the left overs in the fridge are toooooo cold. I
tell him that I can make it in a little bit after Avery and I get
some sleep. He then preceads to make as much noise as possable so
that Avery wakes up. So, I needed to sleep but wasn't able to and he
got the mac&cheese that he wanted. I keep thinking that there has to
be a better way to do this but I can't figure it out.
TIA Rebecca
P.S. re-reading this kinda makes Jaiden sound bad, and he's not he's
a wonderful, energetic little boy that keeps me on my toes. I just
am not sure how to deal with him.
Jennifer Green
Welcome Rebecca, it seems that you are in a tough situation. Although I am a complete
Unschooler, I do not think it is ok to hurt another person for pleasure. There has to be some
anger that Jaiden is holding in about the youngest. Maybe he is jealous about the little one
coming along and taking away his time? Do you spend alone time with Jaiden at all or are
you always with the little one? Maybe he just needs some more alone time with you.
Also, please remember that part of unschooling is unschooling ourselves too. You have to
take care of your needs first or you won't be around to take care of theirs. I would have
stayed in bed through all the noise and tantrum and then not made him mac and cheese
because he didn't respect your time enough to let you get some sleep. Maybe next time
he will get the picture that you are a person with needs also.
Jen
Unschooler, I do not think it is ok to hurt another person for pleasure. There has to be some
anger that Jaiden is holding in about the youngest. Maybe he is jealous about the little one
coming along and taking away his time? Do you spend alone time with Jaiden at all or are
you always with the little one? Maybe he just needs some more alone time with you.
Also, please remember that part of unschooling is unschooling ourselves too. You have to
take care of your needs first or you won't be around to take care of theirs. I would have
stayed in bed through all the noise and tantrum and then not made him mac and cheese
because he didn't respect your time enough to let you get some sleep. Maybe next time
he will get the picture that you are a person with needs also.
Jen
----- Original Message -----
From: rebecca
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] needs vs wants (long)
Good morning, my name is Rebecca and I'm new to this group. I've been
reading the posts and slowly working my way through the archives. I
have enjoyed reading about trusting your children and giving them
control over their own lives. I realized while reading everything
that everyone was saying that my dh and I had gotten in the habit of
saying no and we are trying very hard to change this, both of us came
from families that were very controlling and that was/is what we
know. We also know that we don't wan't our kids feeling the way that
we did growing up. I do have a couple of questions, my oldest(Jaiden
4yrs) thinks that it is the funniest thing in the world to hurt his
younger brother (Avery 1yr). example: This morning I found him
sitting on Avery and shoving a plastic screwdriver into his mouth.
This is a comman accurance, and I'm at a loss, my mother say's to
spank him and make him throw away whatever it is that he used to hurt
Avery with and then make him spend the day sitting on his bed, she
says that this is what she did to keep me from hurting my younger
brother and that after about 3 times it worked. This seems totally
harsh to me but talking to Jaiden dosen't seem to work, he tells me
that it's funny to make Avery scream and if I try talking to him more
about it, tell him that Avery does't think it's funny... Jaiden tells
me that I talk to much and he flops down and pretends to go to sleep
(snors and all)I just don't know what to do, I'm sure that a lot of
it is his age and ajusting to a VERY hectic year, but I don't think
that it makes it okay for him to hurt his brother, am I wrong? The
other question I had was, how do you balance out their (the kids)
wants over your needs? example: It's 6:00am and I've been up all
night with Avery (cutting in two molars) I've finally managed to get
him and me asleep and in comes Jaiden demanding that I get up and
make him mac&cheese, the left overs in the fridge are toooooo cold. I
tell him that I can make it in a little bit after Avery and I get
some sleep. He then preceads to make as much noise as possable so
that Avery wakes up. So, I needed to sleep but wasn't able to and he
got the mac&cheese that he wanted. I keep thinking that there has to
be a better way to do this but I can't figure it out.
TIA Rebecca
P.S. re-reading this kinda makes Jaiden sound bad, and he's not he's
a wonderful, energetic little boy that keeps me on my toes. I just
am not sure how to deal with him.
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In a message dated 10/1/02 10:20:47 AM, elfmama92104@... writes:
<< This seems totally
harsh to me but talking to Jaiden dosen't seem to work, he tells me
that it's funny to make Avery scream and if I try talking to him more
about it, tell him that Avery does't think it's funny... Jaiden tells
me that I talk to much and he flops down and pretends to go to sleep
(snors and all) >>
Maybe the way you're saying it is a problem. Use whole different ways.
I wouldn't let them be in the same room together alone EVER if one was actual
a danger to the other. Keep one with you all the time. They'll both get
older every minute, every day, and it's not a lifelong problem.
<<I don't think
that it makes it okay for him to hurt his brother, am I wrong? >>
It's not okay for you as a mother to allow your child to be hurt by another
person.
But that includes the older kid, and you, too.
So hurting one to protect the other doesn't seem the right answer.
-=-I've finally managed to get
him and me asleep and in comes Jaiden demanding that I get up and
make him mac&cheese, the left overs in the fridge are toooooo cold. I
tell him that I can make it in a little bit after Avery and I get
some sleep. He then preceads to make as much noise as possable so
that Avery wakes up. =-
You needed a babysitter today!
Is there an older neighbor kid who can come and play with Jaiden after shool
(or even better, a homeschooler)? I used to pay $3 an hour for a 12 year
old homeschooled girl to come over sometimes when Marty was three and Kirby
was five. Because I was there and her mom was four houses or so up the
street, it wasn't quit like full-on babysitting. It gave me a chance to
nurse Holly, or take a nap, or take a shower...
Sandra
<< This seems totally
harsh to me but talking to Jaiden dosen't seem to work, he tells me
that it's funny to make Avery scream and if I try talking to him more
about it, tell him that Avery does't think it's funny... Jaiden tells
me that I talk to much and he flops down and pretends to go to sleep
(snors and all) >>
Maybe the way you're saying it is a problem. Use whole different ways.
I wouldn't let them be in the same room together alone EVER if one was actual
a danger to the other. Keep one with you all the time. They'll both get
older every minute, every day, and it's not a lifelong problem.
<<I don't think
that it makes it okay for him to hurt his brother, am I wrong? >>
It's not okay for you as a mother to allow your child to be hurt by another
person.
But that includes the older kid, and you, too.
So hurting one to protect the other doesn't seem the right answer.
-=-I've finally managed to get
him and me asleep and in comes Jaiden demanding that I get up and
make him mac&cheese, the left overs in the fridge are toooooo cold. I
tell him that I can make it in a little bit after Avery and I get
some sleep. He then preceads to make as much noise as possable so
that Avery wakes up. =-
You needed a babysitter today!
Is there an older neighbor kid who can come and play with Jaiden after shool
(or even better, a homeschooler)? I used to pay $3 an hour for a 12 year
old homeschooled girl to come over sometimes when Marty was three and Kirby
was five. Because I was there and her mom was four houses or so up the
street, it wasn't quit like full-on babysitting. It gave me a chance to
nurse Holly, or take a nap, or take a shower...
Sandra
Deborah Lewis
I don't think your moms idea will help your older boy have more love for
his baby brother, or less frustration. I think it's a bad idea.
I don't think it would be a good idea to ignore Jaidens needs either, or
punish him, he'll only get more resentful.
It seems like he needs more time from you and more attention. One sure
way to get you to come running is to make that baby scream. He had you
all to himself for a long time and now he has to wait until the baby is
taken care of. Four is very little. You can't expect him to handle it
like a big person would. Some big people don't handle new babies well.
But you can't let him hurt his little brother either. Don't leave them
alone together, and spend time with Jaiden. Tell him how nice it is to
have a big boy. Tell him that baby wont be a baby forever, that he'll
get bigger and won't need you so much. Maybe if you talk about when he
was a baby, how you held him and rocked him and such. Let him look at
pictures of his small self.
Deb L, who thinks no one should have to sit on their bed all day and that
nothing good can come from it.
his baby brother, or less frustration. I think it's a bad idea.
I don't think it would be a good idea to ignore Jaidens needs either, or
punish him, he'll only get more resentful.
It seems like he needs more time from you and more attention. One sure
way to get you to come running is to make that baby scream. He had you
all to himself for a long time and now he has to wait until the baby is
taken care of. Four is very little. You can't expect him to handle it
like a big person would. Some big people don't handle new babies well.
But you can't let him hurt his little brother either. Don't leave them
alone together, and spend time with Jaiden. Tell him how nice it is to
have a big boy. Tell him that baby wont be a baby forever, that he'll
get bigger and won't need you so much. Maybe if you talk about when he
was a baby, how you held him and rocked him and such. Let him look at
pictures of his small self.
Deb L, who thinks no one should have to sit on their bed all day and that
nothing good can come from it.
Rachel Flint
Yeah, I don't like harsh punishment either. My father
was a control freak and very cruel at times and I used
to fear I'd be like that. So my H and I never wanted
to spank the two girls we have (now 6 & 5), but we
discovered that if you don't punish, they will not
learn. Talking doesn't work. They don't understand
the words or the concepts. Discipline is necessary if
you're all going to get along. Just be sure that
whatever you do for punishment/discipline, you're not
angry when you do it. Good luck. Rae*
--- rebecca <elfmama92104@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
was a control freak and very cruel at times and I used
to fear I'd be like that. So my H and I never wanted
to spank the two girls we have (now 6 & 5), but we
discovered that if you don't punish, they will not
learn. Talking doesn't work. They don't understand
the words or the concepts. Discipline is necessary if
you're all going to get along. Just be sure that
whatever you do for punishment/discipline, you're not
angry when you do it. Good luck. Rae*
--- rebecca <elfmama92104@...> wrote:
> Good morning, my name is Rebecca and I'm new to this__________________________________________________
> group. I've been
> reading the posts and slowly working my way through
> the archives. I
> have enjoyed reading about trusting your children
> and giving them
> control over their own lives. I realized while
> reading everything
> that everyone was saying that my dh and I had gotten
> in the habit of
> saying no and we are trying very hard to change
> this, both of us came
> from families that were very controlling and that
> was/is what we
> know. We also know that we don't wan't our kids
> feeling the way that
> we did growing up. I do have a couple of questions,
> my oldest(Jaiden
> 4yrs) thinks that it is the funniest thing in the
> world to hurt his
> younger brother (Avery 1yr). example: This morning I
> found him
> sitting on Avery and shoving a plastic screwdriver
> into his mouth.
> This is a comman accurance, and I'm at a loss, my
> mother say's to
> spank him and make him throw away whatever it is
> that he used to hurt
> Avery with and then make him spend the day sitting
> on his bed, she
> says that this is what she did to keep me from
> hurting my younger
> brother and that after about 3 times it worked. This
> seems totally
> harsh to me but talking to Jaiden dosen't seem to
> work, he tells me
> that it's funny to make Avery scream and if I try
> talking to him more
> about it, tell him that Avery does't think it's
> funny... Jaiden tells
> me that I talk to much and he flops down and
> pretends to go to sleep
> (snors and all)I just don't know what to do, I'm
> sure that a lot of
> it is his age and ajusting to a VERY hectic year,
> but I don't think
> that it makes it okay for him to hurt his brother,
> am I wrong? The
> other question I had was, how do you balance out
> their (the kids)
> wants over your needs? example: It's 6:00am and I've
> been up all
> night with Avery (cutting in two molars) I've
> finally managed to get
> him and me asleep and in comes Jaiden demanding that
> I get up and
> make him mac&cheese, the left overs in the fridge
> are toooooo cold. I
> tell him that I can make it in a little bit after
> Avery and I get
> some sleep. He then preceads to make as much noise
> as possable so
> that Avery wakes up. So, I needed to sleep but
> wasn't able to and he
> got the mac&cheese that he wanted. I keep thinking
> that there has to
> be a better way to do this but I can't figure it
> out.
> TIA Rebecca
>
> P.S. re-reading this kinda makes Jaiden sound bad,
> and he's not he's
> a wonderful, energetic little boy that keeps me on
> my toes. I just
> am not sure how to deal with him.
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
[email protected]
<< So my H and I never wanted
to spank the two girls we have (now 6 & 5), but we
discovered that if you don't punish, they will not
learn. Talking doesn't work. >>
WHOA!
This goes against my own experiences. My three WERE six and five and all
ages before, but are now 16, 13, and 10, and if the talking you're doing
doesn't work you need to find some new talking, because punishments are NOT
the best ideas people have ever had.
Don't settle for an inferior way of raising your kids when you're surrounded
by people who have life experience in moving away from interactions that harm
your children AND their relationship with you AND fail to make you a better
person.
What we do affects US, our own being, our own spiritual and psychological
selves.
If we can't be wiser than a six year old and figure out how to communicate
with them lovingly and compassionately, something is wrong which can easily
be amended.
<<Just be sure that
whatever you do for punishment/discipline, you're not
angry when you do it. >>
Yeah, that's what my mom said when she spanked kids. This is for your own
good.
She would wait the amount of time it took for us to get the implement, and
she would tell us how many times she was going to hit us in advance, and then
say it was clinical and she had calmed down, so she wasn't angry any more.
The ONLY excuse I can think of to hit a child is anger. And then the parent
better be pretty damned sorry for not having better self control than to hit
a child.
Once you're not angry WHY would you hit a child?
If you hit an adult, you go to jail.
Why is hitting a child okay?
It is not.
My mother was wrong, and lazy, and ill advised.
Sandra
to spank the two girls we have (now 6 & 5), but we
discovered that if you don't punish, they will not
learn. Talking doesn't work. >>
WHOA!
This goes against my own experiences. My three WERE six and five and all
ages before, but are now 16, 13, and 10, and if the talking you're doing
doesn't work you need to find some new talking, because punishments are NOT
the best ideas people have ever had.
Don't settle for an inferior way of raising your kids when you're surrounded
by people who have life experience in moving away from interactions that harm
your children AND their relationship with you AND fail to make you a better
person.
What we do affects US, our own being, our own spiritual and psychological
selves.
If we can't be wiser than a six year old and figure out how to communicate
with them lovingly and compassionately, something is wrong which can easily
be amended.
<<Just be sure that
whatever you do for punishment/discipline, you're not
angry when you do it. >>
Yeah, that's what my mom said when she spanked kids. This is for your own
good.
She would wait the amount of time it took for us to get the implement, and
she would tell us how many times she was going to hit us in advance, and then
say it was clinical and she had calmed down, so she wasn't angry any more.
The ONLY excuse I can think of to hit a child is anger. And then the parent
better be pretty damned sorry for not having better self control than to hit
a child.
Once you're not angry WHY would you hit a child?
If you hit an adult, you go to jail.
Why is hitting a child okay?
It is not.
My mother was wrong, and lazy, and ill advised.
Sandra
Stephanie Elms
> Yeah, I don't like harsh punishment either. My fatherOh wow. I have a 5 yo and would not say that he does not
> was a control freak and very cruel at times and I used
> to fear I'd be like that. So my H and I never wanted
> to spank the two girls we have (now 6 & 5), but we
> discovered that if you don't punish, they will not
> learn. Talking doesn't work. They don't understand
> the words or the concepts. Discipline is necessary if
> you're all going to get along. Just be sure that
> whatever you do for punishment/discipline, you're not
> angry when you do it. Good luck. Rae*
understand the words or the concepts. He may not have the
control of his feelings to always make the right choices,
but he is getting there. *Because* we talk. Talking takes
longer, but I feel that on the whole it will be longer
lasting. How are they supposed to understand the words
and concepts if you don't talk to them about it. But I am
sure that you *do* talk about it, so why hit too?
When Jason was 4, I read an article about the percentage of
parents who spank (it was well above 50%). I was honestly
surprised because I did not expect it to be so high. I made
some sort of exclamation which caused Jason to be curious
about what I was reading. I explained that I was surprised that
it seemed like a lot of parents used spanking. He asked what
spanking was and I explained that if he had done something really
wrong I would hit him on the bottom. I asked what he thought of
that...he said, well if you hit me then I would go hit Kyle
(his younger brother). Blew me away that he would make that
connection. Makes sense though.
My mom hit me with a wooden spoon. Not often and yes I really
did do something wrong "to deserve" it. I had a wonderful
childhood and do not think that I was "abused". I understand
why she did it. BUT I do not think that it was necessary. Am I
better because of it? I don't think so.
I don't want my kids to behave because they are afraid of being hurt.
Or being punished. I want them to behave because they understand that
it is the right thing to do. And they can only learn why it is the
right thing to do if they make mistakes and we talk about it. Which is
why I come here to get new ideas of how to help learn.
Stephanie E.