[email protected]

In a message dated 9/29/02 10:01:34 AM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< Well we have two dogs but we don't give them people food. One is a
Bullmastiff and if he ate people food, I'd be broke!!!! I just made up my
mind this time around I wouldn't do that. I fattened up too many dogs in my
day with leftovers!! >>

Eating scraps won't keep him from also eating the dog food.

Lots of times we make up our minds and decide later it's really valuable to
change.

If not, there would probably be few to no homeschoolers.

The history of people and dogs living together is fascinating, and only in
the past twenty years or so in a VERY SMALL portion of the earth has it NOT
involved them sharing food in some way---dogs eat the parts of animals we
don't. Dogs can eat meat that is too old for humans, and they won't get
sick. (So can my husband. <g>)

Looking at situations in a more historical and anthropological way can often
show us how narrow many of our culture's rules and beliefs are.

Sandra

Mary Bianco

>From: SandraDodd@...

>Eating scraps won't keep him from also eating the dog food.




When they eat scraps daily, for the most part, they expect it and then won't
eat regular dog food without it. Would you? I've had way too many dogs that
this has been proven with. Does it make them sick, yes sometimes and then
the consequences are gross for us and upsetting to the dog. Will it kill
them, no. Is there a reason why they need it, no. Will it fatten them up,
most of the time yes. Are there exceptions to the rule, of course. Is it
easier for me to feed only dog food and biscuits, not have a fat dog or one
that has an upset stomach and not worry about whether I have to cook for him
or not to get him to eat? Most definitely.

Many people do the whole food diets with their dogs and do the raw meat and
veggies and all. Great for them. I don't have time for it, and honestly
don't see the need for it. My dogs are part of our family but they are not
my kids. They are happy, healthy and well loved.

Mary B


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

Judy

very true- I try to feed my dog the BARF diet
http://www.willowglen.com/barf.htm
she seems much healthier- and it is cheaper!
Love, Jude
our husbands must be related.


SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/29/02 10:01:34 AM, mummyone24@... writes:
>
> << Well we have two dogs but we don't give them people food. One is a
> Bullmastiff and if he ate people food, I'd be broke!!!! I just made up my
> mind this time around I wouldn't do that. I fattened up too many dogs
> in my
> day with leftovers!! >>
>
> Eating scraps won't keep him from also eating the dog food.
>
> Lots of times we make up our minds and decide later it's really
> valuable to
> change.
>
> If not, there would probably be few to no homeschoolers.
>
> The history of people and dogs living together is fascinating, and
> only in
> the past twenty years or so in a VERY SMALL portion of the earth has
> it NOT
> involved them sharing food in some way---dogs eat the parts of animals we
> don't. Dogs can eat meat that is too old for humans, and they won't get
> sick. (So can my husband. <g>)
>
> Looking at situations in a more historical and anthropological way can
> often
> show us how narrow many of our culture's rules and beliefs are.
>
> Sandra
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
> list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
> an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


--
"It is better to create than to be learned, creating is the true essence of life."
-- Barthold Georg Niebuhr




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

>From: Judy <jorganic@...>

>very true- I try to feed my dog the BARF diet



No problem as long as owners have done their homework. Just as in non
vaccinating. You have to be williing to understand the consequences. Many
are opposed and have findings that therorize the BARF diet isn't necessarily
good for the dog and can be dangerous.

Mary B

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Deborah Lewis

> >very true- I try to feed my dog the BARF diet

My dog ate cat barf once but that's probably not the same thing, huh?

Deb L, going off now to do a little herself...(you can call me Ralph)

Fetteroll

on 9/29/02 2:33 PM, Mary Bianco at mummyone24@... wrote:

> When they eat scraps daily, for the most part, they expect it and then won't
> eat regular dog food without it.

Well, don't feed her scraps ;-) Put them in the refrigerator for lunch the
next day. Our dog gets to lick plates and pots. Occasionally she gets
something that's been in the fridge for a week that clearly no one wants.
And she gets apple cores, butt ends of carrots. She thinks they're treats
;-)

She may beg. We tell her to go lay down. She may not like her dog food
because of the people food she tastes but she knows that's her only choice.

But we're talking about the bits left behind by a toddler that seem like a
waste. Those won't make up a significant portion of a dog's diet.

Joyce

Deborah Lewis

> Our dog loves that. Likes the stuff that comes out the other end of
> the cats
> too.

Doggie tootsie rolls. Oh, oh, just a pinch between the cheek and gum...

What IS the matter with me today?

Deb L

Fetteroll

on 9/29/02 5:52 PM, Deborah Lewis at ddzimlew@... wrote:

> My dog ate cat barf once but that's probably not the same thing, huh?

Our dog loves that. Likes the stuff that comes out the other end of the cats
too.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/29/02 12:34:15 PM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< When they eat scraps daily, for the most part, they expect it and then
won't
eat regular dog food without it. Would you? >>

I bet my kids would eat dry cheerios and nothing else if that's all I had
ever given them.

But I LIKE my children, and I like my dog too.

There really IS waste from preparing meat (not applicable to vegetarians,
because dogs won't eat potato peels, generally), and that is FOOD, not
"people food" or "dog food."

<<Does it make them sick, yes sometimes and then
the consequences are gross for us and upsetting to the dog. Will it kill
them, no. Is there a reason why they need it, no. Will it fatten them up,
most of the time yes.>>

I'd rather have a fat happy dog than to throw meat scraps (or cheese or
anything a dog would like to eat) away right in front of a dog.

No so much for what the dog "needs," but for what I need to be the kind of
person I want to be.

My children don't "NEED" toys or extra hugs or new video games, if by "need"
we mean stay biologically functional.

<<Is it easier for me to feed only dog food and biscuits, not have a fat dog
or one
that has an upset stomach and not worry about whether I have to cook for him
or not to get him to eat? Most definitely.>>

Even with my dog, I don't always think of my own convenience first.

Sandra

james e thomas

Sandra,
I don't mean to be slow but can you explain this a bit more?

*My children don't "NEED" toys or extra hugs or new video games, if by
"need"
we mean stay biologically functional.*

It seemed out of place in the conversation with the dog food but then
maybe I missed something. Sorry if I did.
thanks!!
sharon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Myranda

Eeeewwwww!!!! See if I eat supper and read e-mails any more! LOL
Myranda

> Our dog loves that. Likes the stuff that comes out the other end of
> the cats
> too.

Doggie tootsie rolls. Oh, oh, just a pinch between the cheek and gum...

What IS the matter with me today?

Deb L

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< *My children don't "NEED" toys or extra hugs or new video games, if by
"need"
we mean stay biologically functional.*

<<It seemed out of place in the conversation with the dog food but then
maybe I missed something. >>

The answer won't focus, but will probably scatter the ideas even further!

The discussion was about what dogs need.

I don't think I can decide what my dog needs or doesn't need much more than I
can decide in advance what my kids need.

But I'm probably more personable with my dog than some people want to be.

I think people's beliefs about dogs and what they need and should and
shouldn't have and do is very culturally based, and the idea that dogs should
NEVER have table scraps (or kitchen prep scraps, or to lick pans) seems
reactonary to the fact that not so long ago in this culture dogs ONLY had
scraps.

When was "dog food" first invented and sold, y'think?

It's not about need or health, it's about culture and marketting and control.

For me, for MY mental health, it's important for me not to feel ownership and
control over the very biological functions of people OR animals. I feel bad
sterilizing pets, but I do it. I don't like it. So I try not to control
every tiny bit of the rest of their lives.

I think when people are compassionate it's about making them better people,
on a mental and spiritual level, and not even so directly about the effect it
has on others around them.

I don't see a chasm between the way a person treats a child and the way a
person treats a dog. It's the treater, not the treatee, sometimes we see.

Our neighbors are really mean to their dogs. Two spaniels who are yelled at
for barking when someone comes to the door, and one shepherd puppy (nearly a
year old now) who is similarly yelled at if he barks or jumps up on the wall
when we go out into our yard. We'd be glad to talk to him and pet him but
he's insulted and berated just for coming to look at us.

Their kids are all grown, and I don't know them.

On the other side, they had a shepherd puppy who got LOTS of attention when
he was little, and was chained up untrained when he was older. I would have
loved to liberate him, but they would have noticed if he lived next door, I
guess. When he was about a year old they gave him away to someone. I was
glad, but sad that most of his first year had been lacking in attention and
love.

I'm sure they tell their children they can't have another dog because they
didn't take care of that one, but the kids are little, and the parents are
irresponsible. So the kids get the blame for what the parents didn't do.
Not just about the dog.

Sometimes solutions to problems require changing what we believe. Sometimes
what we believe isn't very well founded and changing is a relief! That's
happened with me lots over my life. I will claim to "believe" something but
when I really look at it it's not "belief" in the way beliefs should be, but
parotting, or accepting the facade of what I'd heard and seen.

I used to be that way about school. Either my own investment or training or
hopes had made school the great hope of the future. Other people's points
made way more sense than my "beliefs." I didn't even need new evidence, I
just needed to squint, kinda, and look at the same old thing a different way.

How many people today believe formula is cleaner and more scientific than
breast milk? Why would they believe that?

Sandra

Betsy

**

I'd rather have a fat happy dog than to throw meat scraps (or cheese or
anything a dog would like to eat) away right in front of a dog.**

At one point, earlier, I think we were talking about pop tarts. If I
had a dog, I'd probably to hesitate to feed him pop tarts, even if the
toddler had gnawed off a corner.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/29/02 7:09:12 PM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> There really IS waste from preparing meat (not applicable to vegetarians,
> because dogs won't eat potato peels, generally), and that is FOOD, not
> "people food" or "dog food."
>
> <<Does it make them sick, yes sometimes and then
> the consequences are gross for us and upsetting to the dog. Will it kill
> them, no. Is there a reason why they need it, no. Will it fatten them up,
> most of the time yes.>>
>
> I'd rather have a fat happy dog than to throw meat scraps (or cheese or
> anything a dog would like to eat) away right in front of a dog.
>
> No so much for what the

Maggie (our Boston Terrier) eats just about everything, even potato peels,
onion, carrots, peas, meat, what have you. I even have doggie *recipies* I
have invented for her. For example, I made a roast with carrots, potatoes,
and onions in the crock pot yesterday. I saved the middles from the onions,
(I don't use them because the core is bitter) all the carrot ends, the fat
that had to be trimmed off the meat, a little meat, potato peals, and one
small potato. After the crock pot was loaded, I put my scraps into a pot on
the stove added some water and cooked the scraps for Maggie Stew. I cook it
until it is basically a mush and add some to her food and freeze the rest in
old bread bags that I twist off (looks like a row of plastic sausage links).
Whenever I want to treat her, I cut off one section of the bag, thaw it out
in the microwave and mix into her food. I also put her heart worm pill in
with the treat when I put it in her food.
Now I realize this is the extreme of dog ownership, and many won't go that
far for treats, its easier to buy a doggie treat at the store, but for me it
is cheaper to do it this way. Maggie sits in the kitchen when I am cooking
and I tell her I am making her treats. She talks to me with small barks,
moans, growls and wiggles all over. She gets so excited when I cook, she gets
to talking to me, and wiggling so much, she slips around on the kitchen
floor. She loves the smells of all the food. Sometimes she will sit on Moly's
stool and stick her nose up in the air, she is perfectly still, closes her
eyes and she just sighs. I am positive she knows I am cooking for her. She is
hardly fat, she weighs about 13 lbs. Last year she got up to 18 lbs. but she
was pregnant. I save just about everything and make up all sorts of treats
for her. I freeze most in the sausage link/bread bag thing. She gets so much
pleasure from the smells, and like I said, she knows I am making something
for her, I would hate to take that away from her. I agree with Sandra, I
would rather have a fat happy dog than waste even the fat, potato peals and
carrot ends.
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> >very true- I try to feed my dog the BARF diet
>
>
>
> No problem as long as owners have done their homework. Just as in non
> vaccinating. You have to be williing to understand the consequences. Many
> are opposed and have findings that therorize the BARF diet isn't
necessarily
> good for the dog and can be dangerous.

I'd appreciate any urls where this view is discussed. My dog has been on
the barf diet for about 4 years now.
He's very healthy. I'm curious what the objections are and how it's
supposed to be dangerous.
Tia

Mary Bianco

<<Our dog loves that. Likes the stuff that comes out the other end of
the cats too.>>

Now I know who cleans the litter box in your house. <BEG>

Mary B




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Mary Bianco

From: SandraDodd@...


<<I bet my kids would eat dry cheerios and nothing else if that's all I had
ever given them.>>


No matter how agreable your kids may be, I find that very hard to believe!


<<I'd rather have a fat happy dog than to throw meat scraps (or cheese or
anything a dog would like to eat) away right in front of a dog.>>


Well a fat dog may be happy but he's not necessarily healthy and has better
chances of not living as long and healthy either. And I wouldn't necessarily
throw the scraps away "right in front of the dog!"


Mary B



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Mary Bianco

<<From: SandraDodd@...

For me, for MY mental health, it's important for me not to feel ownership
and
control over the very biological functions of people OR animals. I feel bad
sterilizing pets, but I do it. I don't like it. So I try not to control
every tiny bit of the rest of their lives.>>


Okay I don't get it all then. You don't want to feel ownership or control of
people or animals. You don't like the idea of sterlizing animals but do it
anyway. That's a choice you make but don't like. You control that part of
them you don't want to??

Mary B

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/29/02 10:44:37 PM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< You control that part of
them you don't want to?? >>

rephrase please

Shyrley

On 29 Sep 02, at 21:27, Tia Leschke wrote:

> > >very true- I try to feed my dog the BARF diet
> >
> >
> >
> > No problem as long as owners have done their homework. Just as in
> > non vaccinating. You have to be williing to understand the
> > consequences. Many are opposed and have findings that therorize the
> > BARF diet isn't
> necessarily
> > good for the dog and can be dangerous.
>
> I'd appreciate any urls where this view is discussed. My dog has been
> on the barf diet for about 4 years now. He's very healthy. I'm
> curious what the objections are and how it's supposed to be dangerous.
> Tia
>
Whats the BARF diet?

Shyrley


"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."

Shyrley

On 29 Sep 02, at 19:36, Betsy wrote:

> **
>
> I'd rather have a fat happy dog than to throw meat scraps (or cheese
> or anything a dog would like to eat) away right in front of a dog.**
>
> At one point, earlier, I think we were talking about pop tarts. If I
> had a dog, I'd probably to hesitate to feed him pop tarts, even if the
> toddler had gnawed off a corner.
>
> Betsy
>
My dogs eat a mixture of raw deer (supplied by the freind of
afreind), table scraps and kibble. I would say table scraps make up
50% of their diets. This is pasta, veggies etc.
They are happy and healthy although the Lab has put on a bit of
weight since we moved to the US. Thisis cos back home I would
walk for two hours a day on the Malvern Hills with the dogs running
free. Here in uptight Virginia dogs are not allowed off the leash :-(
so she doesn't get the excersise she used too.

I also don't give them things with sugar in. It will rot their teeth and I
don't want to have to clean them.

Whats heartworm?

Shyrley


"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."

Karin

> >
> Whats the BARF diet?
>
> Shyrley
>


BARF: Bones and Raw Food

A website for more information:
http://www.willowglen.com/barf.htm


Karin

Shyrley

On 30 Sep 02, at 7:51, Karin wrote:

>
> > >
> > Whats the BARF diet?
> >
> > Shyrley
> >
>
>
> BARF: Bones and Raw Food
>
Ah. Well we do a bit of that then. But only in the US cos people
go out hunting and then the meat is free. Back home people don't
hunt. I'm not sure if its cos its illegal, or wildlife is protected or that
we ain't allowed guns. (I'm not counting the aristocracy chasing
foxes. Thats not hunting, more like torture and slaughter).

My dogs will eat everything except rice and potato peelings.

Shyrley


"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/02 8:55:08 AM, shyrley.williams@... writes:

<< I'm not sure if its cos its illegal, or wildlife is protected or that
we ain't allowed guns. >>

Any of those would be sufficient to discourage the practice! <g>

Shyrley

On 30 Sep 02, at 11:15, SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/30/02 8:55:08 AM, shyrley.williams@...
> writes:
>
> << I'm not sure if its cos its illegal, or wildlife is protected or
> that we ain't allowed guns. >>
>
> Any of those would be sufficient to discourage the practice! <g>
>
Yeah.
And don't forget Hunt Saboteurs, who go out and sabotage fox-
hunts and the grouse and pheasant shoots.
With any luck , Fox hunting will be banned some time soon in
England. It already is in Scotland.
:-)

Shyrley


"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/02 9:26:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
shyrley.williams@... writes:


> Whats heartworm?
>
> Shyrley

Hearworm is passed to dogs through the female mosquito. The larvae inters the
dogs bloodstream and infects the heart and lungs. It is common throughout all
the US, and there are some areas where it is extremely prevalent. Left
untreated, Heartwrom will clog the heart and lungs of a dog. Heartworm is
best treated by prevention as it is very hard to treat after infestation.
Symptoms include weight loss, and coughing. Heartworms can grow up to 12 or
more inches in length, and a dog or cat heart infested with the worms looks
rather nasty.
Because I was a nurse, I am kind of on the fence when it comes to
vaccinations (kids and pets) But, because heartworm is so prevalent here, we
give Maggie a monthly pill. We also get her parvo vaccination because we have
parvo in our ground. There are some sites with explanations of heartworm, and
I looked for one with pictures of the worm infestation, but couldn't find
one. (I didn't look long though) Our vet has a dog heart in a jar that has
the infestation and it is really nasty.
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]