The O'Donnells

OK guys, I'm getting paniky here. I kept the books like Family Math, I
Hate Mathematics, and Mathematics for Smarty Pants and others laying around
here for about a month and dd never even picked one up! So I feel like I
must push a little. (emphasize a little here)

We made fraction wheels out of pizza cardboard rounds and had great fun
making them but there they lay. So the other day I took out the math books
again and started in the chapters on fractions - trying to make this
interesting and meaningful. I've scaled it back to no more than 15
problems in a day but still sense her boredom, frustration and general
dislike of the topic.

Help! How can I ignore this??? Math is in every possible thing we do. She
can't just right it off for the rest of her life. In ways she wants me to
tell her what to do (still thinking I should do what the school did) and
yet, she resents it when I push even a little. Ack!

Frustration Incorporated!



In His Service,

Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

Lisa Bugg

> OK guys, I'm getting paniky here. I kept the books like Family Math, I
> Hate Mathematics, and Mathematics for Smarty Pants and others laying
around
> here for about a month and dd never even picked one up! So I feel like I
> must push a little. (emphasize a little here)


A month is not a very long time, given the length of our lives.....The key
phrase in the above paragraph is not that she' didn't pick up the books, but
that you are panicking. Stop there. Instead of discenting the need for
math, dissect the panic. Where does it come from. Who made you so afraid
of *math needing to be learned*. What are you afraid of? That she will
NEVER do math, just because she didn't do it in the last month? Did you
study economics last month? What if the y2kers are right and we're going to
slide in a deep, deep, depression in the next few years? Will you understand
the market forces at work? In essence I'm asking *why do we panic*?

> We made fraction wheels out of pizza cardboard rounds and had great fun
> making them but there they lay.

That's GREAT. You had fun and she was working with you! No telling what she
absorbed from the time with you and working with fractions. Did you two
talk about fractions? Hey you should have ordered the pizza and eaten it AS
fractions. <G>

So the other day I took out the math books
> again and started in the chapters on fractions - trying to make this
> interesting and meaningful. I've scaled it back to no more than 15
> problems in a day but still sense her boredom, frustration and general
> dislike of the topic.
>
Did she ask you to do this? Is she whining that she doesn't know fractions?
I have one that whined about fractions. At 12 we were under a lot of stress
with a court case. Dang thing last 18 months and we were a bunch of crispy
critters by the time it was over. We didn't even attempt doing anything
academic during that time. Well, at 14 my daughter was standing in my
kitchen whining... you should have made me learn fractions. -------((( My
head is spinning, I'm thinking when you frist approached fractions we were
living a nightmare, with 3 babies under 4 to go with it.....I would have
sent you around the bend if I had *made* you learn fractions--so now what to
say))))

Then she said... "don't you know there are some things you just have to do,
even if you don't like it.".. Hoo Boy, this was worth waiting for. Yes, she
didn't know fractions when other kids did... she was 14 and way
*behind* ---But you know what, that lesson that there are some things you
just have to do because you just have to, that lesson will carry her much,
much farther than knowing fractions 2 years eariler. So, I looked up at
her, and said, "you know Sara, I was teaching... I was helping you learn
something. Do you realize how many people come out of forced schooling and
never really know you have to do something because you just have to *for
yourself*. They've spent years doing things because they had no choice and
when they do have choice they stop learning. Now, you know deep inside
that it's worth it to work hard at something you don't really like, PLUS in
6 weeks worth of effort you'll know fractions too.

She struggled to say something. I recieved one of those looks parents of
teens are used to when they figur out you're right, but hate to admit it.
She walked off and I ordered Keys to Fractions. She worked through them and
to this day, hates fractions.

> Help! How can I ignore this??? Math is in every possible thing we do.
She
> can't just right it off for the rest of her life.

Look at the juxtaposition of your words. If it's truly in every possible
thing we do, how in the world could she just right it off??? How? How would
she function, managing her checkbook, her auto insurance, cutting a pizza up
for her children??

In ways she wants me to tell her what to do (still thinking I should do
what the school did) and
> yet, she resents it when I push even a little. Ack!
>
How do you know this? It sort of looks like you think she ought to be doing
*school math*. That she ought to sit down with fractional parts of a piece
of cardboard instead of the frational parts of the PIZZA? The real fractions
are in dividing a pizza, not the cardboard.

She wants your help learning to function in the world, which will include
using fractions. Build things, make a bird house. Cook, hide the one cup
and one teaspon and use the others. Or agree only to use the 1/4 teaspoon
in the things you make.. or double a recipe.

Or you can choose not to panic and wait until she needs to use this skill,
which will be learned much, much easier when there is a true need. Even if
it's much later than school says it should be learned.

Lisa

[email protected]

Laraine --

My son LOVES math!!! And he can go a month without seeming to think about it
at all. It will happen. It will come up -- as you pointed out, math is all
around us. Then maybe she will have a real reason that is hers to learn math.

Also, I don't know the books you mentioned -- the I Hate Math genre. But
there really are a lot of fun math (not necessarily arithmetic) activities in
the world. Logic puzzles and games and mazes are a big hit in our house and
they sort of get the math juices flowing even if you are not actually
learning division or fractions or whatever.

Good luck. And remember -- Math is Fun.

Nance

Julie Sisemore

Does your dd happen to be 9 1/2? I have one just like her! I have gone
around about this too. She does pick up on things very quickly, and is
pretty good at it, even though she doesn't like it. I think basically she
doesn't see a need for it at this time. I do however! I can't even interest
her much in things like measuring for baking, real life skills.

We are borrowing a Saxon math book right now. Not sure how either of us
like it. Or how long it will last.


*Julie Sisemore* mama bear to Caitlin 2/23/90 Zachary 3/8/92 Michael
5/31/93 Taylor 8/20/95 and Alyssa 7/7/98

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> OK guys, I'm getting paniky here. I kept the books like Family Math, I
> Hate Mathematics, and Mathematics for Smarty Pants and others laying around
> here for about a month and dd never even picked one up! So I feel like I
> must push a little. (emphasize a little here)
>
I hate to break it to you Laraine, but a month isn't a very long
time. My 13 year old son regularly goes a month with no "formal"
math pursuits. Then he spends hours with a geometry or algebra book.
I used to panic too, still do sometimes as we approach those high
school years, but my son has let me know that my panicking only
delays his unschooling. It might help to know that even if your
daughter didn't tackle any math for years, she could learn
everything she needed to know for college entrance exams, etc. in a
few months.

Diane in KS

The O'Donnells

At 10:36 AM 11/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Marbleface@...

>Also, I don't know the books you mentioned -- the I Hate Math genre. But
>there really are a lot of fun math (not necessarily arithmetic) activities
in
>the world. Logic puzzles and games and mazes are a big hit in our house and
>they sort of get the math juices flowing even if you are not actually
>learning division or fractions or whatever.

These books are full of the logic games, puzzles, etc. I read her a couple
of pages in one and showed her there was a difference between arithmetic
and math and that made her ever so slightly curious. But nothing more
happened.

Someone asked her age she is 10 1/2 yo. And I know she wants me to direct
her more because she told me directly that is what she thought I should do.
Part of my panic came in when her younger sister (who loves math) suddenly
joined her boat and quite doing any at all! Part of my panic is the
importance I place on math itself. And can she write off doing math?
Maybe not completely, but then again, have you ever worked with a 18 yo
that could literally not reliably count to 5 - even when counting
merchandise? I have - I believe it is possible to be nearly completely
illiterate when it comes to math.




In His Service,

Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

Campbell & Wyman

>
>Someone asked her age she is 10 1/2 yo. And I know she wants me to direct
>her more because she told me directly that is what she thought I should do.
> Part of my panic came in when her younger sister (who loves math) suddenly
>joined her boat and quite doing any at all! Part of my panic is the
>importance I place on math itself...... I believe it is possible to be
nearly completely
>illiterate when it comes to math.
>In His Service,
>
>Laraine

I worry about the math too. I have let go (and become more unschooling ) in
every other subject but I worry about math. I consider it a foundation
subject. The information must be understood, put into practice and built
upon. Anyway...that is the way that I feel.
My background is bio-chem. and I know that I would not have gone as far as
I have without that math foundation.

I just want to give my girls all the tools to be able to choose a career
path whether it be in the sciences or arts.

So, I change books every year for math and I let the girls pick now. So far
all the other books..like Family Math (I have friends whose kids love it)
and I HAte Math just have not been interesting for the girls . Maybe my
comfort level is with the sequence of a math text...so it may be my issue.
The eldest, Ave is 10 1/2too, and she is using the Math Curriculum Press
book.( She is a workbook-kid...she ususally loves doing them.) There are
a lot of problems and busy-work. But we also like the artwork..just right.
And we like the little bits of info. that come in the teachers manual.
We only do the first problem and then a couple more to check her
understanding. If she 'gets it' then we skip the exta page of busy-work.
This is empowering for her. She is a perfectionist and has a hard time not
knowing EVERYTHING right now. So, math can really get her down.
Her younger sister, 8 1/2 years, (a more spatial learner) zips through math
and has no emotional issues with it. (hmmmm? I wonder if it is a
first-born/second-born thing???)She works in the Scholars Choice book...a
Canadian product. She has almost caught up with her sister. This is a
touchy issue. however, the other day Ave (eldest) said..."well, I will get
through this at my own pace." breakthrough!!!

Let's keep chatting about this.
I have been struggling with it for some time. And I have been honest with
the girls that I feel it is important to have a strong math foundation. I
think honesty is important...we all have to work together. So, older dd
grumbles but at least she can make jokes about it now! And they do mental
math all the time...especially when they are figuring out their 'pay' at
the end of the month for their newpaper route. (the motivation of
income...eh??)

Right now this works for us. And the thing is..it has to work for all of
us...the parent/facilitator too :)

Brooke
it is still raining!!! and there are two glads. left to bloom in the garden
:)
brynlee@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/13/99 6:33:25 AM !!!First Boot!!!, praxis@...
writes:

<<
These books are full of the logic games, puzzles, etc. I read her a couple
of pages in one and showed her there was a difference between arithmetic
and math and that made her ever so slightly curious. But nothing more
happened.

Someone asked her age she is 10 1/2 yo. And I know she wants me to direct
her more because she told me directly that is what she thought I should do.
Part of my panic came in when her younger sister (who loves math) suddenly
joined her boat and quite doing any at all! Part of my panic is the
importance I place on math itself. And can she write off doing math?
Maybe not completely, but then again, have you ever worked with a 18 yo
that could literally not reliably count to 5 - even when counting
merchandise? I have - I believe it is possible to be nearly completely
illiterate when it comes to math.
>>

Oh. Didn't know what the books you have were about. And I have no other
"brilliant" suggestions. Other than to try to be patient. There is a long
time between 10 1/2 and math-illiterate 18. I hate that too. I know some
people just can't get math but some of the many I have run into had to have
been ABLE but were never taught effectively or never learned because they got
so turned off to math or something.

But this reminds me of my very bright daughter who will not read. She is
almost 5, knows her letters, you can "catch" her reading a few beginning
words, but if you ask her to read or if she can read, she will refuse to and
deny that she can. She will admit to knowing the letters and sounds but will
not read. I, of course, have the peace of mind that she is only almost 5.
But it is frustrating when I know she has all the elements of reading and yet
will not accept that what she is doing is reading. Maybe because she can't
do it as perfectly as big brother. Maybe because it is not her thing -- she
is very artistic and verbal (will talk your head off if you let her) but . .
. Anyway, it seems to be more my problem than hers at this point. I hope
that's how it works out for you too. That you can somehow get thru a few
months (please not years - for your sake) of seeing little progress, and then
it will click with her when she's ready.

My mom and I were just discussing something like this yesterday. How parents
we have both spoken with have "plans" for their kids. They plan that they
will educate and mold and lead and the kids will turn out certain way. It
turns out that that's not how life works. At least as far as my mom and I
have been able to observe. And one of the hardest parts is watching and
waiting to see what will take or work or stick and what (no matter how much
you wish it would) does not stick.

Well, good luck in figuring all of these things out.

Take care.

Nance

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/13/99 3:40:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Marbleface@... writes:

<< But it is frustrating when I know she has all the elements of reading and
yet
will not accept that what she is doing is reading. >>


I had an interesting conversation with my 11yro whom did not read until
9yrso. He told me he could have read if he wished to but he was so irritated
and confused by everyone pushing him that he just decided to not read at all
until he wanted to.
Funny but I always suspected this because he would not even look at the
word in a book hen I asked him. I know I should learn from this and I hope I
do.

Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/13/99 11:25:24 AM EST, brynlee@... writes:

<< She is a perfectionist and has a hard time not
knowing EVERYTHING right now. So, math can really get her down.
Her younger sister, 8 1/2 years, (a more spatial learner) zips through math
and has no emotional issues with it. (hmmmm? I wonder if it is a
first-born/second-born thing???) >>
Brooke,
My two boys are EXACTLY like this! The oldest gets so upset, if he can't do
the problem, he gets mad at me! The more I hear and read, the more I am
convinced that there is a great deal in this "first child, second child "
thing. I always thought so, but it is really spooky how it is constantly
reinforced! I love the Saxon math because it is layer on layer, repetition,
repetition, repetition, but , that's what seems to keep them from forgetting
what they have learned, because they continually use it. However, this year
we are not using it, trying to use more real life math stuff, I don't know
how this will work out.
Teresa

Campbell & Wyman

>we are not using it, trying to use more real life math stuff, I don't know
>how this will work out.
>Teresa
Great to hear that I am not alone regarding the 'math issues' with two
children.
Keep me posted on the real life math. I will keep your private email too so
we don't clutter up this group.
Thanks...
Brooke
sun is finally out... :>
brynlee@...

[email protected]

an idea for you moms of 9-10 yr old girls that you'd like to feel better
about them "doing math," i want to share that mine lately has really enjoyed
a publication by highlights called mathmania. now if they are math
resistant, they probably will see that it is math and may not try it. but if
they are just interested in something new and fun, they might like it. and
it would give you something to feel like they are doing! anyway, no
promotion here, just thought i'd share. the 800# is right here on my invoice
if you are interested. and ask for the deal where they send you a free one
to try (it is packaged with another that you would pay for or send back...)
they are 3.98 ea. plus 2.45 s/h and they will keep on sending them every
month or something, one of those... cancel whenever... anyway, the # is
800-962-3661.
erin

Campbell & Wyman

>800-962-3661.
>erin

Thanks for the info Erin. Are these workbooks that you write in or what???
Magazine style??

What do you think Teresa...have you tried this?
Highlights is a good mag so I am game. How much is it for a year? I have to
do an exchange to Canadian (ouch!)

Brooke
>
brynlee@...

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

My almost eight yr old, very bright dd is just barely beginning to read.
She was doing what your dd was at almost 5. Anyway, I am learning to be
patient and relax....because of the discussion I get from this list.
(So even though I don't get much time to respond as I like.....I'm saying
Thanks everyone!! for the discussion a few weeks back - 1st of Nov - about
beginning reading)
I find I have to work on myself, my perspective, and my
expectations....many of which come from having been in school SO many
years...pre-school to post graduate!!
Suz
>
>But this reminds me of my very bright daughter who will not read. She is
>almost 5, knows her letters, you can "catch" her reading a few beginning
>words, but if you ask her to read or if she can read, she will refuse to
and
>deny that she can. She will admit to knowing the letters and sounds but
will
>not read. I, of course, have the peace of mind that she is only almost 5.
>But it is frustrating when I know she has all the elements of reading and
yet
>will not accept that what she is doing is reading.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/15/99 6:59:44 AM !!!First Boot!!!, brynlee@...
writes:

<< 800-962-3661.
>erin

Thanks for the info Erin. Are these workbooks that you write in or what???
Magazine style??
>>

The MathMania mags are much more interesting than any workbook I have seen.
We sometimes do 1 and sometimes do 20 pages. Each page or 2 is a different
type of puzzle.

Highlights also publishes something fun called PuzzleMania -- similar but
more mazes and non-math stuff -- word searches and secret codes, etc. It's
better than I am describing it.

Nance