bob books
[email protected]
***Don't you want the children to WANT to learn to
read because the stuff out there is cool??***
Why else would they want to read?
The reason my children use bob books and other early reading tools *is* because they want to learn to read, and as quickly as possible. Do you really think that kids who happily use bob books on their road to reading are doing so because the bob books are interesting in and of themselves? No... they are a means to an end.
If my children weren't so interested in learning to read, the bob books would have had no appeal at all. And the reason they want to learn to read is because "stuff out there is cool," and sometimes their mother's voice gives out.
The complaints about bob books are striking me as very reactive to school rather than separate from school.
I have a friend that's so caught up in anti-schoolness that she wants to make it a point this year to plan events for homeschoolers that specifically could not be done by school groups. When I told her that was totally reactive she got offended, but it's true. Why not do what you want, or read what you want, or learn how you want, without worrying about whether it's too schooly, or whether it's been done in school or by people who went to school?
Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to me.
Patti
read because the stuff out there is cool??***
Why else would they want to read?
The reason my children use bob books and other early reading tools *is* because they want to learn to read, and as quickly as possible. Do you really think that kids who happily use bob books on their road to reading are doing so because the bob books are interesting in and of themselves? No... they are a means to an end.
If my children weren't so interested in learning to read, the bob books would have had no appeal at all. And the reason they want to learn to read is because "stuff out there is cool," and sometimes their mother's voice gives out.
The complaints about bob books are striking me as very reactive to school rather than separate from school.
I have a friend that's so caught up in anti-schoolness that she wants to make it a point this year to plan events for homeschoolers that specifically could not be done by school groups. When I told her that was totally reactive she got offended, but it's true. Why not do what you want, or read what you want, or learn how you want, without worrying about whether it's too schooly, or whether it's been done in school or by people who went to school?
Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to me.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/02 10:59:27 PM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:
<< Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being
forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater
to me.
But the lack of force or coercion IS a neutralizing factor, and we do have
easy books here too.
<<I have a friend that's so caught up in anti-schoolness that she wants to
make it a point this year to plan events for homeschoolers that specifically
could not be done by school groups. >>
Is it that she wants to avoid running into school groups, or is it a
celebration of the expansion of her learning universe? That would make a
difference to me.
My anti-schoolness would lean more toward having NO group outings with other
families. But on the other hand, living in a non-industrial place, I love
factory tours. And some places deal with groups only, or give a discount to
groups (the aquarium/biopark here) and so sometimes it's worth all meeting at
once to get in, but not necessarily staying together.
<<Why not do what you want, or read what you want, or learn how you want,
without worrying about whether it's too schooly>>
A written book report with an upper righthand block that says
Holly Dodd
English, Mrs. Dodd
September 16, 2002
is too schooly for me.
If the purpose and form of the "work" is school specific and doesn't exist
outside of school, then I think that's a reason to avoid it in unschooling.
If a child WANTED to do that, for fun, an exercise in playing school, then
fine.
<<Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being
forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater
to me.>>
Would the early readers be the baby or the bathwater?
Women were advised to douche early and often for years. Lots of our
grandmothers had those hot water bottle things hanging near the tub. Vinegar
and water, or worse. THEN people figure out that there's a mucous membrane
situation and a bacterial environment that would have been better off NOT
being stripped out that way. Huh. How much money was spent doing something
that was not healthy or productive? So that was some bathwater worth
disposing of.
And to the "bad experience" part, another story.
My mom has gone through two periods in her life when she wasn't drinking
much. Once was when I was in elementary and we had moved away from her
relatives to northern New Mexico. The drinking gradually picked up until it
was bad when I was in high school. She quit again when Kirby was a baby,
with AA, and stayed sober 9 years. That was so she could regain custody of
my younger half-brother.
When I say to other friends of mine, "It's a problem that you drink so much.
You should try not to do that to your family," they invariably say "OH,
Sandra, this is personal with you, because your mom's an alcoholic." Or
they'll say to others, "You know how Sandra is about alcohol, because of her
mom."
If my mom were the only alcoholic who's ever terrorized the neighborhood, set
a house on fire, run a car into a ditch and lied about it or passed out in a
red ant bed, then yes. It would be a total aberration and MY personal
problem. But there is a pattern, and there is a principle. People with
children should not be "practicing acoholics" if they can find any fortitude
within them to stop. Regardless of whether my mom had never been born or if
she gets on a poster for "alcohol is glamorous," it causes more damage than
good.
So when I read just "because someone had a bad experience with them," it
reminds me of that. If "someone" had a bad experience with school, you can
surely multiply that by millions.
Here I have used an extreme example again. But just as with proportions the
small-measure ones might not show, and so a larger model often illustrates
relationships more clearly than something measured in grains or parts of
seconds.
Sandra
<< Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being
forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater
to me.
>>That's not my philosophical objection to reading books.
But the lack of force or coercion IS a neutralizing factor, and we do have
easy books here too.
<<I have a friend that's so caught up in anti-schoolness that she wants to
make it a point this year to plan events for homeschoolers that specifically
could not be done by school groups. >>
Is it that she wants to avoid running into school groups, or is it a
celebration of the expansion of her learning universe? That would make a
difference to me.
My anti-schoolness would lean more toward having NO group outings with other
families. But on the other hand, living in a non-industrial place, I love
factory tours. And some places deal with groups only, or give a discount to
groups (the aquarium/biopark here) and so sometimes it's worth all meeting at
once to get in, but not necessarily staying together.
<<Why not do what you want, or read what you want, or learn how you want,
without worrying about whether it's too schooly>>
A written book report with an upper righthand block that says
Holly Dodd
English, Mrs. Dodd
September 16, 2002
is too schooly for me.
If the purpose and form of the "work" is school specific and doesn't exist
outside of school, then I think that's a reason to avoid it in unschooling.
If a child WANTED to do that, for fun, an exercise in playing school, then
fine.
<<Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being
forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater
to me.>>
Would the early readers be the baby or the bathwater?
Women were advised to douche early and often for years. Lots of our
grandmothers had those hot water bottle things hanging near the tub. Vinegar
and water, or worse. THEN people figure out that there's a mucous membrane
situation and a bacterial environment that would have been better off NOT
being stripped out that way. Huh. How much money was spent doing something
that was not healthy or productive? So that was some bathwater worth
disposing of.
And to the "bad experience" part, another story.
My mom has gone through two periods in her life when she wasn't drinking
much. Once was when I was in elementary and we had moved away from her
relatives to northern New Mexico. The drinking gradually picked up until it
was bad when I was in high school. She quit again when Kirby was a baby,
with AA, and stayed sober 9 years. That was so she could regain custody of
my younger half-brother.
When I say to other friends of mine, "It's a problem that you drink so much.
You should try not to do that to your family," they invariably say "OH,
Sandra, this is personal with you, because your mom's an alcoholic." Or
they'll say to others, "You know how Sandra is about alcohol, because of her
mom."
If my mom were the only alcoholic who's ever terrorized the neighborhood, set
a house on fire, run a car into a ditch and lied about it or passed out in a
red ant bed, then yes. It would be a total aberration and MY personal
problem. But there is a pattern, and there is a principle. People with
children should not be "practicing acoholics" if they can find any fortitude
within them to stop. Regardless of whether my mom had never been born or if
she gets on a poster for "alcohol is glamorous," it causes more damage than
good.
So when I read just "because someone had a bad experience with them," it
reminds me of that. If "someone" had a bad experience with school, you can
surely multiply that by millions.
Here I have used an extreme example again. But just as with proportions the
small-measure ones might not show, and so a larger model often illustrates
relationships more clearly than something measured in grains or parts of
seconds.
Sandra
[email protected]
***But the lack of force or coercion IS a neutralizing factor, and we do have
easy books here too.***
I think coercion/force is the issue more than the easy readers, and many people associate the easy readers with force- hence the bad feelings about them.
***Is it that she wants to avoid running into school groups, or is it a
celebration of the expansion of her learning universe? That would make a
difference to me.***
Both, I think.
***And some places deal with groups only, or give a discount to
groups (the aquarium/biopark here) and so sometimes it's worth all meeting at
once to get in, but not necessarily staying together.***
My friend wouldn't like that you have to be a part of a group to get a discount (that's so school-minded!) and refuse to go.
***A written book report with an upper righthand block that says
Holly Dodd
English, Mrs. Dodd
September 16, 2002
is too schooly for me.***
I can't imagine my kids wanting to do a book report, so for us it would be part of the bathwater. That's my favorite thing about unschooling- picking and choosing what works for individuals. A person who wanted to be a book reviewer might want to write book report type things.
***"someone" had a bad experience with school, you can
surely multiply that by millions.***
For sure. But you're talking about the whole package of school, not just the various bits and parts.
Yes, easy readers can be found in school, but so can regualar books like Charlotte's Web and Harry Potter. I remember eating ice cream sandwiches in the cafeteria in elementary school and to this day I still love them. If I was so school phobic that I wanted my kids to have nothing to do with things found in schools I'd have to get rid of many of our favorite novels, lots of sports equipment, all of our paper, paints and writing tools. That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Patti, not sure if I'm using the right analogy
easy books here too.***
I think coercion/force is the issue more than the easy readers, and many people associate the easy readers with force- hence the bad feelings about them.
***Is it that she wants to avoid running into school groups, or is it a
celebration of the expansion of her learning universe? That would make a
difference to me.***
Both, I think.
***And some places deal with groups only, or give a discount to
groups (the aquarium/biopark here) and so sometimes it's worth all meeting at
once to get in, but not necessarily staying together.***
My friend wouldn't like that you have to be a part of a group to get a discount (that's so school-minded!) and refuse to go.
***A written book report with an upper righthand block that says
Holly Dodd
English, Mrs. Dodd
September 16, 2002
is too schooly for me.***
I can't imagine my kids wanting to do a book report, so for us it would be part of the bathwater. That's my favorite thing about unschooling- picking and choosing what works for individuals. A person who wanted to be a book reviewer might want to write book report type things.
***"someone" had a bad experience with school, you can
surely multiply that by millions.***
For sure. But you're talking about the whole package of school, not just the various bits and parts.
Yes, easy readers can be found in school, but so can regualar books like Charlotte's Web and Harry Potter. I remember eating ice cream sandwiches in the cafeteria in elementary school and to this day I still love them. If I was so school phobic that I wanted my kids to have nothing to do with things found in schools I'd have to get rid of many of our favorite novels, lots of sports equipment, all of our paper, paints and writing tools. That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Patti, not sure if I'm using the right analogy
[email protected]
***And so far, ALL of my children have said "those are stupid" when I read them.***
I would never even attempt to read a bob book *to* my kids! If I'm doing the reading they want something interesting or entertaining. They're for learning to sound out words, period. Reading them *to* my kids would defeat the whole purpose, and they know that.
Patti
I would never even attempt to read a bob book *to* my kids! If I'm doing the reading they want something interesting or entertaining. They're for learning to sound out words, period. Reading them *to* my kids would defeat the whole purpose, and they know that.
Patti
[email protected]
On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:18:43 -0500 <patti.schmidt2@...> writes:
them and read them herself. That's what she wanted with the Bob books and
with many short books after that - that was a big part of her method in
learning to read. I still don't know at what point she was memorizing and
at what point she was reading, and it didn't ever really matter to me. I
don't think she did much sounding out, either - she read by memorizing
lots of words, and them intuited the rules of phonics much later. It was
a very private process, though, often she would leave the room and I'd
see her just surrounded with a stack of picture books, figuring something
out. When she started to write she did some of the same stuff - rather
than ask how to spell a word (although she did that too) she'd go and get
a book or a card or comic that she knew had that word in it, and copy it
out of there. Because she didn't read phonetically, writing phonetically
was very laborious for her and this was easier.
We found an older ex-school textbook reader at a thrift store when she
was 4 that was all short plays, and she loved that one, too (she also
acted out the Bob books). Oh, and comic books - she started loving the
Archies at around 5 or so, reading some words and figuring out the rest
from the pictures... and she still loves Archies today, if I'm wanting to
bring her a small treat it's often a new Archies.
Rain spent a few months in a Montessori kindergarten where most of the
kids were reading aloud from the Bob books every day, but she was doing a
series of readers, maybe Bank Street? *That* was a whole different story,
that was awful - she couldn't stand the books, she hated being made to
read them aloud every day. And I'm sure the kids there who were reading
the Bob books had a totally different experience with them than she'd
had, they became instruments of torture just like those damn Bank Street
readers.
Dar
> ***And so far, ALL of my children have said "those are stupid" when IRain liked to have me read books to her once, and then she would take
> read them.***
>
> I would never even attempt to read a bob book *to* my kids! If I'm
> doing the reading they want something interesting or entertaining.
> They're for learning to sound out words, period. Reading them *to*
> my kids would defeat the whole purpose, and they know that.
them and read them herself. That's what she wanted with the Bob books and
with many short books after that - that was a big part of her method in
learning to read. I still don't know at what point she was memorizing and
at what point she was reading, and it didn't ever really matter to me. I
don't think she did much sounding out, either - she read by memorizing
lots of words, and them intuited the rules of phonics much later. It was
a very private process, though, often she would leave the room and I'd
see her just surrounded with a stack of picture books, figuring something
out. When she started to write she did some of the same stuff - rather
than ask how to spell a word (although she did that too) she'd go and get
a book or a card or comic that she knew had that word in it, and copy it
out of there. Because she didn't read phonetically, writing phonetically
was very laborious for her and this was easier.
We found an older ex-school textbook reader at a thrift store when she
was 4 that was all short plays, and she loved that one, too (she also
acted out the Bob books). Oh, and comic books - she started loving the
Archies at around 5 or so, reading some words and figuring out the rest
from the pictures... and she still loves Archies today, if I'm wanting to
bring her a small treat it's often a new Archies.
Rain spent a few months in a Montessori kindergarten where most of the
kids were reading aloud from the Bob books every day, but she was doing a
series of readers, maybe Bank Street? *That* was a whole different story,
that was awful - she couldn't stand the books, she hated being made to
read them aloud every day. And I'm sure the kids there who were reading
the Bob books had a totally different experience with them than she'd
had, they became instruments of torture just like those damn Bank Street
readers.
Dar
[email protected]
On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 9:05:18 -0500 <patti.schmidt2@...> writes:
sometimes chose to do things that I associated so much with school and
coercion, stuff I thought no one would do if they had the option not to.
Learning cursive was one thing (although learning cursing didn't surprise
me :-). Doing pages of addition problems was another, and also that same
ClueFinders 3rd Grade Adventure game Mary mentioned, which is full of
traditional school-type stuff.
Our almost-13 yr old unschooled neighbor decided to join the school
district's independent study program this fall, which both Rain and his
older brother can't even imagine wanting to do. He's working on his
second essay on an assigned topic, he has a weekly math class and math
homework, a biology textbook - the whole shebang. He appears tickled by
the whole thing, just having a ball. Some of us doubt he'll be doing it
in a month or two, we figure the fun may wear off - but it's certainly
interesting for all of us.
Dar
> Yes, easy readers can be found in school, but so can regualar booksOne thing that really surprised me as Rain grew older was that she would
> like Charlotte's Web and Harry Potter. I remember eating ice cream
> sandwiches in the cafeteria in elementary school and to this day I
> still love them. If I was so school phobic that I wanted my kids to
> have nothing to do with things found in schools I'd have to get rid
> of many of our favorite novels, lots of sports equipment, all of our
> paper, paints and writing tools. That would be throwing the baby
> out with the bathwater.
sometimes chose to do things that I associated so much with school and
coercion, stuff I thought no one would do if they had the option not to.
Learning cursive was one thing (although learning cursing didn't surprise
me :-). Doing pages of addition problems was another, and also that same
ClueFinders 3rd Grade Adventure game Mary mentioned, which is full of
traditional school-type stuff.
Our almost-13 yr old unschooled neighbor decided to join the school
district's independent study program this fall, which both Rain and his
older brother can't even imagine wanting to do. He's working on his
second essay on an assigned topic, he has a weekly math class and math
homework, a biology textbook - the whole shebang. He appears tickled by
the whole thing, just having a ball. Some of us doubt he'll be doing it
in a month or two, we figure the fun may wear off - but it's certainly
interesting for all of us.
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/02 12:12:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being
forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater
to me. >
So if all of your children said "those are lame, let's get rid of them" you
wouldn't?
I did. And no one has missed them since. If one of them wanted to keep them,
or I did, then they'd be here, on the shelf, like loads of other things that
often get ignored. But available.
I didn't think early readers were so great once I realized that people don't
need to hurry the road to reading.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Throwing out early readers because someone had a bad experience being
forced to use them is kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater
to me. >
So if all of your children said "those are lame, let's get rid of them" you
wouldn't?
I did. And no one has missed them since. If one of them wanted to keep them,
or I did, then they'd be here, on the shelf, like loads of other things that
often get ignored. But available.
I didn't think early readers were so great once I realized that people don't
need to hurry the road to reading.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/02 12:12:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I think coercion/force is the issue more than the easy readers, and many
people associate the easy readers with force- hence the bad feelings about
them. >>
For my oldest son that would be true...not so for the rest of us.
It was the simple matter that they're really, really boring to read. Our
house is full of better options.
And the means to an end is not important for anyone here right now.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I think coercion/force is the issue more than the easy readers, and many
people associate the easy readers with force- hence the bad feelings about
them. >>
For my oldest son that would be true...not so for the rest of us.
It was the simple matter that they're really, really boring to read. Our
house is full of better options.
And the means to an end is not important for anyone here right now.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/02 12:12:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Reading them *to* my kids would defeat the whole purpose, and they know
that. >>
If my children get no enjoyment from me reading something to them, they are
certainly not going to be inspired to read it to themselves....not until
later, when they're older perhaps. I think young children get interested by
us reading interesting things to them.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Reading them *to* my kids would defeat the whole purpose, and they know
that. >>
If my children get no enjoyment from me reading something to them, they are
certainly not going to be inspired to read it to themselves....not until
later, when they're older perhaps. I think young children get interested by
us reading interesting things to them.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/02 12:12:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Reading is a big deal in our culture whether the parents make it so or
not. Could you imagine trying to function as an adult if you couldn't read?
Even though ideally there is no pressure on an unschooling child and the
parents are totally relaxed and "no big deal" about reading, it's plain
obvious that it *is* a big deal and it does make life easier. >>
I have done everything in my power to counter those views.
Reading is ultimately an important tool...but only a tool.
That's why my nine year old is not that interested in reading yet, and does
not feel pressure nor think it's more important than other things he does.
I doubt very much that even if I still had easy readers on the shelf (well,
actually we do have easy readers, just not the bob book type that are so
obviously to "make" a person able to read) that he'd choose those books over
all the other stuff we have available.
" If my new to reading child came up to me and said "Mom I just read this
whole book" I'd never say "big deal" or "but honey, that's just an early
reader... you might not *really* read for years."
Do you think that I would do this? If so, you're not understanding my point
at all.
I don't think my child would pick those up given the awesom array of cool
books he has available.
And he has no pressure of any kind to "get" reading quickly. He's nine, the
next child is five...neither of them have ever shown interest in anything dry
and boring yet.
If they did we'd have em!
There is no pressure nor high praise in this home for reading a bob book.
I am just as excited when he finds a cool bug to look at, or draws an
interesting dragon.
All of his accomplishments are worthy, reading a bob book wouldn't be
something that excited me anymore or less than these other things he does.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Reading is a big deal in our culture whether the parents make it so or
not. Could you imagine trying to function as an adult if you couldn't read?
Even though ideally there is no pressure on an unschooling child and the
parents are totally relaxed and "no big deal" about reading, it's plain
obvious that it *is* a big deal and it does make life easier. >>
I have done everything in my power to counter those views.
Reading is ultimately an important tool...but only a tool.
That's why my nine year old is not that interested in reading yet, and does
not feel pressure nor think it's more important than other things he does.
I doubt very much that even if I still had easy readers on the shelf (well,
actually we do have easy readers, just not the bob book type that are so
obviously to "make" a person able to read) that he'd choose those books over
all the other stuff we have available.
" If my new to reading child came up to me and said "Mom I just read this
whole book" I'd never say "big deal" or "but honey, that's just an early
reader... you might not *really* read for years."
Do you think that I would do this? If so, you're not understanding my point
at all.
I don't think my child would pick those up given the awesom array of cool
books he has available.
And he has no pressure of any kind to "get" reading quickly. He's nine, the
next child is five...neither of them have ever shown interest in anything dry
and boring yet.
If they did we'd have em!
There is no pressure nor high praise in this home for reading a bob book.
I am just as excited when he finds a cool bug to look at, or draws an
interesting dragon.
All of his accomplishments are worthy, reading a bob book wouldn't be
something that excited me anymore or less than these other things he does.
Ren
[email protected]
***So if all of your children said "those are lame, let's get rid of them" you
wouldn't?***
Hmmm. I don't think my kids have ever said, about anything, "let's get rid of it." Some things they use, some they don't, but so far they haven't had an overwhelming desire to throw things away... they tend to be packrats, actually.
I imagine if I was a former curriculum user they might want to see the curriculum chucked out the window, but I've never gone that route and so they don't have negative connections to much.
We also have a three year old who might eventually like the bob books, so why throw things out just because someone else is done with them?
When my oldest was little I subscribed to big backyard and he didn't much care for it. Since he had a baby brother I decided to save them even though the kid whose name was on them thought they were "lame" and wouldn't have cared if I threw them out.
Now my middle and youngest sons love to sit with me with a pile of big backyard back issues.
***I didn't think early readers were so great once I realized that people don't
need to hurry the road to reading.***
I don't have any problem with "hurrying the road to reading" when it's the kid's idea and not the parent's.
Our letter refridgerator magnets hurry the road to reading. Actually, anything with letters and words on it could be said to hurry the road to reading.
Patti
wouldn't?***
Hmmm. I don't think my kids have ever said, about anything, "let's get rid of it." Some things they use, some they don't, but so far they haven't had an overwhelming desire to throw things away... they tend to be packrats, actually.
I imagine if I was a former curriculum user they might want to see the curriculum chucked out the window, but I've never gone that route and so they don't have negative connections to much.
We also have a three year old who might eventually like the bob books, so why throw things out just because someone else is done with them?
When my oldest was little I subscribed to big backyard and he didn't much care for it. Since he had a baby brother I decided to save them even though the kid whose name was on them thought they were "lame" and wouldn't have cared if I threw them out.
Now my middle and youngest sons love to sit with me with a pile of big backyard back issues.
***I didn't think early readers were so great once I realized that people don't
need to hurry the road to reading.***
I don't have any problem with "hurrying the road to reading" when it's the kid's idea and not the parent's.
Our letter refridgerator magnets hurry the road to reading. Actually, anything with letters and words on it could be said to hurry the road to reading.
Patti
[email protected]
I have done everything in my power to counter those views.
Reading is ultimately an important tool...but only a tool.
It's *because* it's an important tool that reading is desirable.
***(well,
actually we do have easy readers, just not the bob book type that are so
obviously to "make" a person able to read)***
There's that word "make" again. I don't "make" my kids read anything.
***I don't think my child would pick those up given the awesom array of cool
books he has available.***
If my child's purpose is to look at cool books, obviously bob books aren't where he heads. He picks up bob books if he wants to puzzle out easy words to read. I keep saying this in different ways and feeling like nobody is getting what I'm saying.
***There is no pressure nor high praise in this home for reading a bob book.***
I said nothing about pressure and "high praise." I said that if my son is happy that he read one, then I'm happy that he's happy.
***I am just as excited when he finds a cool bug to look at, or draws an
interesting dragon.
All of his accomplishments are worthy, reading a bob book wouldn't be
something that excited me anymore or less than these other things he does.***
Of course.
Patti
Reading is ultimately an important tool...but only a tool.
It's *because* it's an important tool that reading is desirable.
***(well,
actually we do have easy readers, just not the bob book type that are so
obviously to "make" a person able to read)***
There's that word "make" again. I don't "make" my kids read anything.
***I don't think my child would pick those up given the awesom array of cool
books he has available.***
If my child's purpose is to look at cool books, obviously bob books aren't where he heads. He picks up bob books if he wants to puzzle out easy words to read. I keep saying this in different ways and feeling like nobody is getting what I'm saying.
***There is no pressure nor high praise in this home for reading a bob book.***
I said nothing about pressure and "high praise." I said that if my son is happy that he read one, then I'm happy that he's happy.
***I am just as excited when he finds a cool bug to look at, or draws an
interesting dragon.
All of his accomplishments are worthy, reading a bob book wouldn't be
something that excited me anymore or less than these other things he does.***
Of course.
Patti
[email protected]
***At the same time she was fooling
around with Bob books and Easy Reader Level 1's, I was reading Watership
Down to her.***
My "fooling around with bob books" son is enjoying the Chronicles of Narnia right now... we just finished Prince Caspian. If I pulled out Lad and the Fat Cat as a read aloud he'd think I was nuts! :-)
Patti
around with Bob books and Easy Reader Level 1's, I was reading Watership
Down to her.***
My "fooling around with bob books" son is enjoying the Chronicles of Narnia right now... we just finished Prince Caspian. If I pulled out Lad and the Fat Cat as a read aloud he'd think I was nuts! :-)
Patti
[email protected]
<< I don't have any problem with "hurrying the road to reading" when it's the
kid's idea and not the parent's.
Our letter refridgerator magnets hurry the road to reading. Actually,
anything with letters and words on it could be said to hurry the road to
reading. >>
Nintendo Power and computer games hurried my kids' road to reading.
Rhyming and watching singalong videos did too.
<<***This example keeps being used in one form or another, and no one here
has or
would do that. I'm thinking maybe your characterization of "the other side"
is false and you're angry about something that's only existing in your model
of the situation.***
<<So you would say a different thing to a child than you would to another
adult? You wouldn't give a child your honest opinion about bob books- which
from one of your posts was that they are a waste of trees, not really
reading, and nothing to get excited about?>>
We didn't have any Bob books. I looked in them and they looked WAY too easy
for anyone and I put them back down. I've looked in a TON of books and boxes
and educational this'n'that and put it back down.
When my kids read something easy I'd smile and say something appropriate like
"Cool!" or "Yep!" or "Thanks, I didn't have my glasses on" or whatever it
was.
When Marty was first learning to read he liked reading something off a
billboard or a sign while we were driving and I would say, for fun, "Marty
STOP. If I wanted you to learn to read I would've sent you to school." He
would laugh and read something else. I'd tell other people, in front of him,
"Marty keeps reading things even though nobody taught him." And it made him
laugh there for a few weeks, and I knew he was reading and he knew he was
reading.
That same season, though, if someone on an unschooling discussion had said
"My child is eight and isn't reading yet" I would have said "Marty either.
Sometimes he recognizes or sounds out a word or two, but it will come. I'm
not worried."
It was nothing to get excited about, where "excited" means writing to all
relatives and coming online and saying "MY CHILD CAN READ NOW."
It was a step on a journey.
I didn't make a big deal about kids taking steps either. They walked to
walk. They walked to get somewhere. It was inevitable.
Sandra
kid's idea and not the parent's.
Our letter refridgerator magnets hurry the road to reading. Actually,
anything with letters and words on it could be said to hurry the road to
reading. >>
Nintendo Power and computer games hurried my kids' road to reading.
Rhyming and watching singalong videos did too.
<<***This example keeps being used in one form or another, and no one here
has or
would do that. I'm thinking maybe your characterization of "the other side"
is false and you're angry about something that's only existing in your model
of the situation.***
<<So you would say a different thing to a child than you would to another
adult? You wouldn't give a child your honest opinion about bob books- which
from one of your posts was that they are a waste of trees, not really
reading, and nothing to get excited about?>>
We didn't have any Bob books. I looked in them and they looked WAY too easy
for anyone and I put them back down. I've looked in a TON of books and boxes
and educational this'n'that and put it back down.
When my kids read something easy I'd smile and say something appropriate like
"Cool!" or "Yep!" or "Thanks, I didn't have my glasses on" or whatever it
was.
When Marty was first learning to read he liked reading something off a
billboard or a sign while we were driving and I would say, for fun, "Marty
STOP. If I wanted you to learn to read I would've sent you to school." He
would laugh and read something else. I'd tell other people, in front of him,
"Marty keeps reading things even though nobody taught him." And it made him
laugh there for a few weeks, and I knew he was reading and he knew he was
reading.
That same season, though, if someone on an unschooling discussion had said
"My child is eight and isn't reading yet" I would have said "Marty either.
Sometimes he recognizes or sounds out a word or two, but it will come. I'm
not worried."
It was nothing to get excited about, where "excited" means writing to all
relatives and coming online and saying "MY CHILD CAN READ NOW."
It was a step on a journey.
I didn't make a big deal about kids taking steps either. They walked to
walk. They walked to get somewhere. It was inevitable.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>>Learning cursive was one thing (although learning cursing didn't surpriseYup. Casey tried all of that stuff too. She made me do her version of math
>>me :-). Doing pages of addition problems was another, and also that same
>>ClueFinders 3rd Grade Adventure game Mary mentioned, which is full of
>>traditional school-type stuff.>>
sheets, spelling tests, and geography bees. She also insisted on learning
cursive starting at age 4. Hard to figure these darn unschoolers out, huh?
;-)
>>Our almost-13 yr old unschooled neighbor...>>Okay I'm just so jealous of anyone who has an actual IRL unschooling
neighbor of any age or gender. :-(
Life is good.
~Mary
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[email protected]
***We didn't have any Bob books. I looked in them and they looked WAY too easy
for anyone and I put them back down.***
Too easy because your kids were already reading? I can't imagine how they'd be too easy for a kid who wasn't reading yet, or only just barely sounding out a few words. Some of the bob books (they progress a little) are too *hard* for my son, he likes the ones he's already familiar with the best, and they are usually the ones he wants me to listen to him read.
***I've looked in a TON of books and boxes
and educational this'n'that and put it back down.***
Me too, but you'd never guess I put *anything* back down if you took a look at our shelves and closets (not to mention things in storage that get rotated). :-)
***It was nothing to get excited about, where "excited" means writing to all
relatives and coming online and saying "MY CHILD CAN READ NOW."***
I'd never do that either.
***I didn't make a big deal about kids taking steps either.***
Well, just because something takes place naturally and gradually and independent of parental input doesn't mean it's not exciting. (And isn't "exciting" subjective anyway?) My children like me to watch them when they learn new skills... my oldest will come get me to show me a new skateboarding trick he's taught himself in the driveway, or one of them will want me to watch them flip off the diving board at the pool. They're excited about such things and it feels right to mirror it back to them. Isn't that sort of like you saying "cool!" when one of your kids just read something? I have a hard time *not* getting excited for and with my kids when they accomplish something they've set out to.
Patti
for anyone and I put them back down.***
Too easy because your kids were already reading? I can't imagine how they'd be too easy for a kid who wasn't reading yet, or only just barely sounding out a few words. Some of the bob books (they progress a little) are too *hard* for my son, he likes the ones he's already familiar with the best, and they are usually the ones he wants me to listen to him read.
***I've looked in a TON of books and boxes
and educational this'n'that and put it back down.***
Me too, but you'd never guess I put *anything* back down if you took a look at our shelves and closets (not to mention things in storage that get rotated). :-)
***It was nothing to get excited about, where "excited" means writing to all
relatives and coming online and saying "MY CHILD CAN READ NOW."***
I'd never do that either.
***I didn't make a big deal about kids taking steps either.***
Well, just because something takes place naturally and gradually and independent of parental input doesn't mean it's not exciting. (And isn't "exciting" subjective anyway?) My children like me to watch them when they learn new skills... my oldest will come get me to show me a new skateboarding trick he's taught himself in the driveway, or one of them will want me to watch them flip off the diving board at the pool. They're excited about such things and it feels right to mirror it back to them. Isn't that sort of like you saying "cool!" when one of your kids just read something? I have a hard time *not* getting excited for and with my kids when they accomplish something they've set out to.
Patti
zenmomma *
>>If my child's purpose is to look at cool books, obviously bob books aren't::standing and waving:: I hear ya. :-)
>>where he heads. He picks up bob books if he wants to puzzle out easy
>>words to read. I keep saying this in different ways and feeling like
>>nobody is getting what I'm saying.>>
Life is good.
~Mary
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zenmomma *
>>***I didn't make a big deal about kids taking steps either.***>>Really? I did a little cheer for them. But I never, ever worried that they
weren't walking by a certain date. It was just so cool when they did it and
their little faces just lit up. It was a family happy time. Just because.
For the record, Casey didn't walk till almost 15 months and Conor didn't
talk till 18 months. I didn't push, didn't worry. I held Casey's little hand
and walked her around for as long as she asked me to. I talked and sang and
read and cooed with Conor until one day he was talking right back.
Life is good.
~Mary
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[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/02 5:02:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< There's that word "make" again. I don't "make" my kids read anything. >>
That's why I had it in quotes. Only to point out the purpose of the books
(what they were created for) not at all an implication of how you would use
them at all!!
And I wasn't aiming the "pressure or high praise" at you either....only
pointing out why my middle son wouldn't feel any need to read something (at
this point in his life) just to say he's reading. He tries to puzzle out what
he needs or is interested in all on it's own merit.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< There's that word "make" again. I don't "make" my kids read anything. >>
That's why I had it in quotes. Only to point out the purpose of the books
(what they were created for) not at all an implication of how you would use
them at all!!
And I wasn't aiming the "pressure or high praise" at you either....only
pointing out why my middle son wouldn't feel any need to read something (at
this point in his life) just to say he's reading. He tries to puzzle out what
he needs or is interested in all on it's own merit.
Ren
[email protected]
***Only to point out the purpose of the books
(what they were created for) not at all an implication of how you would use
them at all!!***
I understand.
But this makes me wonder... isn't anything published in the written language created for reading? Why would any book be written or published if not to "make" people read it or at least put it out there as a choice among many reading options?
Bob books don't "make" my children read. They "allow" my children to "read" by keeping the language broken down to its simplest combinations.
Now, if someone is forcing them on children who couldn't care less, it would be the humans "making" reading happen, not the bob books.
In my home they are just a thing among many things.
Patti
(what they were created for) not at all an implication of how you would use
them at all!!***
I understand.
But this makes me wonder... isn't anything published in the written language created for reading? Why would any book be written or published if not to "make" people read it or at least put it out there as a choice among many reading options?
Bob books don't "make" my children read. They "allow" my children to "read" by keeping the language broken down to its simplest combinations.
Now, if someone is forcing them on children who couldn't care less, it would be the humans "making" reading happen, not the bob books.
In my home they are just a thing among many things.
Patti
Fetteroll
on 9/17/02 12:41 AM, patti.schmidt2@... at
patti.schmidt2@... wrote:
spoken recording or computer program or movie or play or translate it into a
different language it changes, of course, but it's fundamental reason for
being isn't lost.
(Though some poetry does have a visual element using type conventions and
placement on the page.)
The same couldn't be said of the Bob books or other easy readers. A book on
tape version of the Bob books would be rather meaningless without the books
;-) And you couldn't convey the story in Bob books on video since the
"story" is a side effect of English spelling and pronounciation. Bob books
in another language couldn't have the same story since mat, pat and cat
wouldn't be visually or auditorially (is that the hearing version of
seeing?) related.
If the publishers' purpose was to convey information, all easy readers could
be transfered to video tape or audio tape (for just listening to, not
following along in the book) to make the information accessible to all kids
whether reading or not. But that's not their purpose.
Some authors do manage to transcend the purpose and actually manage to get a
good story into an easy reader :-) But the good story isn't why they exist.
Joyce
patti.schmidt2@... wrote:
> But this makes me wonder... isn't anything published in the written languageNo, writing is used to convey ideas. If you transfer the same information to
> created for reading? Why would any book be written or published if not to
> "make" people read it or at least put it out there as a choice among many
> reading options?
spoken recording or computer program or movie or play or translate it into a
different language it changes, of course, but it's fundamental reason for
being isn't lost.
(Though some poetry does have a visual element using type conventions and
placement on the page.)
The same couldn't be said of the Bob books or other easy readers. A book on
tape version of the Bob books would be rather meaningless without the books
;-) And you couldn't convey the story in Bob books on video since the
"story" is a side effect of English spelling and pronounciation. Bob books
in another language couldn't have the same story since mat, pat and cat
wouldn't be visually or auditorially (is that the hearing version of
seeing?) related.
If the publishers' purpose was to convey information, all easy readers could
be transfered to video tape or audio tape (for just listening to, not
following along in the book) to make the information accessible to all kids
whether reading or not. But that's not their purpose.
Some authors do manage to transcend the purpose and actually manage to get a
good story into an easy reader :-) But the good story isn't why they exist.
Joyce
[email protected]
> But this makes me wonder... isn't anything published in the written language***No, writing is used to convey ideas. If you transfer the same information to
> created for reading? Why would any book be written or published if not to
> "make" people read it or at least put it out there as a choice among many
> reading options?
spoken recording or computer program or movie or play or translate it into a
different language it changes, of course, but it's fundamental reason for
being isn't lost.***
Notice I said that books published in the *written* language are meant to be read. I guess I should have said printed language since I didn't convey my meaning very well.
Printed words are always meant to be read by someone, aren't they?
Since the purpose of Bob books are to help people learn to read, not to convey ideas (have I said this already?), of course it would make no sense to have them on tape.
I understand that easy readers and bob books can and are sometimes used to force a child into reading before they're ready, and mabye that's why some of you are so against them. I still maintain that in a household where they simply exist as another tool they don't "make" anyone read any earlier than they want to.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/02 4:00:48 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< > But this makes me wonder... isn't anything published in the written
language
people who are dying to know more about how patterns and mathematics work?
Does a worksheet of easy two-digit addition problems you don't have to carry
over a real use of mathematical thinking?
Holly used to like me to make her "math problems" and I would, but I would
make patterns or tricks in there so she would think more than just each
problem. I'd make one whole row all add up to 12, or set a line of
"problems" where the sums increased incrementally by one, but there was no
pattern in the other two lines. Or where there was.
I didn't TELL her what I was doing, she would come and tell me.
Because my husband had explained something new and important to me, one day
years ago when I was confessing math anxiety and he was sitting on the toilet
across the wall probably wishing I'd hush up about math anxiety, I said the
only problems I EVER really understood and liked in school were the two, out
of thirty usually, which were "word problems."
He said then I DID understand math, because the word problems were the only
problems in the whole book. The others were solutions for unstated word
problems, without the calculations having been completed.
And so it is in algebra--those forumlas are solutions, not "problems." The
job is calculation, not mathematics.
I felt much better after that day, and s had to do with patterns and
combinations, not with calculation.
She probably did 20 of those over the course of two years. I would just whip
as many as I could fit on the paper she would bring me and she would go away
and solve them.
Sandra
<< > But this makes me wonder... isn't anything published in the written
language
> created for reading? Why would any book be written or published if not toAre math workbooks "about math"? Do they convey information of interest to
> "make" people read it or at least put it out there as a choice among many
> reading options? >>
people who are dying to know more about how patterns and mathematics work?
Does a worksheet of easy two-digit addition problems you don't have to carry
over a real use of mathematical thinking?
Holly used to like me to make her "math problems" and I would, but I would
make patterns or tricks in there so she would think more than just each
problem. I'd make one whole row all add up to 12, or set a line of
"problems" where the sums increased incrementally by one, but there was no
pattern in the other two lines. Or where there was.
I didn't TELL her what I was doing, she would come and tell me.
Because my husband had explained something new and important to me, one day
years ago when I was confessing math anxiety and he was sitting on the toilet
across the wall probably wishing I'd hush up about math anxiety, I said the
only problems I EVER really understood and liked in school were the two, out
of thirty usually, which were "word problems."
He said then I DID understand math, because the word problems were the only
problems in the whole book. The others were solutions for unstated word
problems, without the calculations having been completed.
And so it is in algebra--those forumlas are solutions, not "problems." The
job is calculation, not mathematics.
I felt much better after that day, and s had to do with patterns and
combinations, not with calculation.
She probably did 20 of those over the course of two years. I would just whip
as many as I could fit on the paper she would bring me and she would go away
and solve them.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/02 8:51:24 PM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< And I wasn't aiming the "pressure or high praise" at you either....only
pointing out why my middle son wouldn't feel any need to read something (at
this point in his life) just to say he's reading. He tries to puzzle out what
he needs or is interested in all on it's own merit. >>
Another part of the puzzle of what I'm thinking without words!
My kids didn't want to "READ," they wanted to read specific things.
And while there is a tradition of saying if you want to swim, you need to do
jumping jacks to strenghten your legs and arms, and if you want to learn
karate from Pat Morita you have to wax the deck, and if you want to ride a
horse you have to muck stables for two days first, I'm trying to get away
from those traditions, some of which are justifiable, and some of which are
punitive and a little sadistic.
And I'm not saying it's sadistic to buy Bob books.
I'm saying that unless it's absolutely and clearly and proveably TRUE that a
child can only learn to read by having three letter words with all short
vowels, moving on to four letter words with all LONG vowels (where "the" will
be pronounced with a long "e" regardless of what word follows it, because
it's too soon to "teach that rule"), I wasn't willing to go back to the
formulaic teaching methods of traditional school reading programs.
By the time they were reading anything real, they knew perfectly well
instinctively that you say "the(e) egg" but "the(uh) dog".
With very early reading, sometimes the ability to sound out surpasses the
knowledge of the language, so kids will be sounding words out which are not
even words they know.
That does happen with anyone, sometimes, but with five and six year olds it
happens LOTS. Too much like me sounding out Italian or Latin to sing church
music and not understanding anything but Jesu and Maria.
Sandra
<< And I wasn't aiming the "pressure or high praise" at you either....only
pointing out why my middle son wouldn't feel any need to read something (at
this point in his life) just to say he's reading. He tries to puzzle out what
he needs or is interested in all on it's own merit. >>
Another part of the puzzle of what I'm thinking without words!
My kids didn't want to "READ," they wanted to read specific things.
And while there is a tradition of saying if you want to swim, you need to do
jumping jacks to strenghten your legs and arms, and if you want to learn
karate from Pat Morita you have to wax the deck, and if you want to ride a
horse you have to muck stables for two days first, I'm trying to get away
from those traditions, some of which are justifiable, and some of which are
punitive and a little sadistic.
And I'm not saying it's sadistic to buy Bob books.
I'm saying that unless it's absolutely and clearly and proveably TRUE that a
child can only learn to read by having three letter words with all short
vowels, moving on to four letter words with all LONG vowels (where "the" will
be pronounced with a long "e" regardless of what word follows it, because
it's too soon to "teach that rule"), I wasn't willing to go back to the
formulaic teaching methods of traditional school reading programs.
By the time they were reading anything real, they knew perfectly well
instinctively that you say "the(e) egg" but "the(uh) dog".
With very early reading, sometimes the ability to sound out surpasses the
knowledge of the language, so kids will be sounding words out which are not
even words they know.
That does happen with anyone, sometimes, but with five and six year olds it
happens LOTS. Too much like me sounding out Italian or Latin to sing church
music and not understanding anything but Jesu and Maria.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/02 2:54:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Bob books don't "make" my children read. They "allow" my children to
"read" by keeping the language broken down to its simplest combinations. >>
But did you teach your child to talk by breaking language down to it's
simplest cominations?
Did you help them walk by breaking down movement to it's simplest form?
Or did these things happen by themselves, just because they were exposed to
all of language and movement in it's finest forms?
Again, I have no problem if a person wants to have Bob books, I don't see
anything wrong with having everything on your shelves.
Only trying to make it clear, once again, why I (and some other unschoolers)
don't have them, nor seek them out. And again, I would buy them again if my
child wanted them or felt a need to read something on their own.
Ren
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Bob books don't "make" my children read. They "allow" my children to
"read" by keeping the language broken down to its simplest combinations. >>
But did you teach your child to talk by breaking language down to it's
simplest cominations?
Did you help them walk by breaking down movement to it's simplest form?
Or did these things happen by themselves, just because they were exposed to
all of language and movement in it's finest forms?
Again, I have no problem if a person wants to have Bob books, I don't see
anything wrong with having everything on your shelves.
Only trying to make it clear, once again, why I (and some other unschoolers)
don't have them, nor seek them out. And again, I would buy them again if my
child wanted them or felt a need to read something on their own.
Ren
Ren
[email protected]
***My kids didn't want to "READ," they wanted to read specific things.***
The specific things my kid wants to read right now are the bob books. Not because of the outstanding content, but because (I'm guessing) they're easy and manageable, and right now it's letters and letter combinations that interest him (among other things, like listening to me read about volcanoes and Pompeii).
***I'm saying that unless it's absolutely and clearly and proveably TRUE that a
child can only learn to read by having three letter words with all short
vowels, moving on to four letter words with all LONG vowels (where "the" will
be pronounced with a long "e" regardless of what word follows it, because
it's too soon to "teach that rule"), I wasn't willing to go back to the
formulaic teaching methods of traditional school reading programs.***
I don't think anyone here is trying to prove it necessary. I've only said that they're useful, sometimes, for some kids.
And I don't think that having bob books lying around is utilizing any teaching method, let alone a formulaic one. I don't hover or make sure he reads them in the proper order or anything.
From my posts you'd think that bob books are prominently displayed in our home at all times and that a large amount of time is spent with them. That's not the case. All together he's probably spent ten or fifteen minutes with them in the past week.
***With very early reading, sometimes the ability to sound out surpasses the
knowledge of the language, so kids will be sounding words out which are not
even words they know.***
I can see how that might happen.
But it hasn't happened with my older fluent reader nor my budding reader. My oldest learned to read gradually and easily, and the rare times he's read aloud to me I've noticed an interesting phenomenon... he reads content more than actual words. For example he'll paraphrase without thinking about it because he "expects" a sentence to flow a certain way based on the content.
And this is a child who largely taught himself to read with bob books and other easy readers. Obviously he didn't get stuck sounding out without getting the meaning. My middle son, while "sounding out" words, will look at the picture for clues to what unfamiliar words say.
Patti
The specific things my kid wants to read right now are the bob books. Not because of the outstanding content, but because (I'm guessing) they're easy and manageable, and right now it's letters and letter combinations that interest him (among other things, like listening to me read about volcanoes and Pompeii).
***I'm saying that unless it's absolutely and clearly and proveably TRUE that a
child can only learn to read by having three letter words with all short
vowels, moving on to four letter words with all LONG vowels (where "the" will
be pronounced with a long "e" regardless of what word follows it, because
it's too soon to "teach that rule"), I wasn't willing to go back to the
formulaic teaching methods of traditional school reading programs.***
I don't think anyone here is trying to prove it necessary. I've only said that they're useful, sometimes, for some kids.
And I don't think that having bob books lying around is utilizing any teaching method, let alone a formulaic one. I don't hover or make sure he reads them in the proper order or anything.
From my posts you'd think that bob books are prominently displayed in our home at all times and that a large amount of time is spent with them. That's not the case. All together he's probably spent ten or fifteen minutes with them in the past week.
***With very early reading, sometimes the ability to sound out surpasses the
knowledge of the language, so kids will be sounding words out which are not
even words they know.***
I can see how that might happen.
But it hasn't happened with my older fluent reader nor my budding reader. My oldest learned to read gradually and easily, and the rare times he's read aloud to me I've noticed an interesting phenomenon... he reads content more than actual words. For example he'll paraphrase without thinking about it because he "expects" a sentence to flow a certain way based on the content.
And this is a child who largely taught himself to read with bob books and other easy readers. Obviously he didn't get stuck sounding out without getting the meaning. My middle son, while "sounding out" words, will look at the picture for clues to what unfamiliar words say.
Patti
[email protected]
***But did you teach your child to talk by breaking language down to it's
simplest cominations?***
Not consciously, but I'm sure I spoke differently to my infants than I did to other adults. Hasn't it been found that universally mothers speak to babies in similar ways... with a high pitched voice and raised eyebrows, with their faces right in front of the infant's?
I'm sure that that's not how they learn to talk, I'm sure it has more to do with being in a talking environment and picking up language from the people talking normally around them. But by that logic why have books specifically for children at all? Why have refridgerator letters or anything with small words if children can, and therefore should, just pick it up from full fledged adult level print?
***Did you help them walk by breaking down movement to it's simplest form?***
No, but I remember when they were newly and unsteadily walking I might position a sturdy chair, say, halfway between the coffee table and the wall so they had something to toddle over to and grab. Planting useful tools in the kid's environment isn't the same thing as imposing "teaching" or manipulation on them.
Patti
simplest cominations?***
Not consciously, but I'm sure I spoke differently to my infants than I did to other adults. Hasn't it been found that universally mothers speak to babies in similar ways... with a high pitched voice and raised eyebrows, with their faces right in front of the infant's?
I'm sure that that's not how they learn to talk, I'm sure it has more to do with being in a talking environment and picking up language from the people talking normally around them. But by that logic why have books specifically for children at all? Why have refridgerator letters or anything with small words if children can, and therefore should, just pick it up from full fledged adult level print?
***Did you help them walk by breaking down movement to it's simplest form?***
No, but I remember when they were newly and unsteadily walking I might position a sturdy chair, say, halfway between the coffee table and the wall so they had something to toddle over to and grab. Planting useful tools in the kid's environment isn't the same thing as imposing "teaching" or manipulation on them.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/02 9:24:07 AM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:
<< I remember when they were newly and unsteadily walking I might position a
sturdy chair, say, halfway between the coffee table and the wall so they had
something to toddle over to and grab. Planting useful tools in the kid's
environment isn't the same thing as imposing "teaching" or manipulation on
them.
I totally agree with that.
Perhaps I see Bob Books as little walking-chair-substitutes made just for
that purpose and no other. A special color, a special size, to stash around
the room so kids can walk. And it seems families can just use chairs they
already have.
I'm not saying it's right or all, I'm just trying to clarify my still unclear
thoughts.
Sandra
<< I remember when they were newly and unsteadily walking I might position a
sturdy chair, say, halfway between the coffee table and the wall so they had
something to toddle over to and grab. Planting useful tools in the kid's
environment isn't the same thing as imposing "teaching" or manipulation on
them.
>>Here is probably the crux.
I totally agree with that.
Perhaps I see Bob Books as little walking-chair-substitutes made just for
that purpose and no other. A special color, a special size, to stash around
the room so kids can walk. And it seems families can just use chairs they
already have.
I'm not saying it's right or all, I'm just trying to clarify my still unclear
thoughts.
Sandra
[email protected]
***Perhaps I see Bob Books as little walking-chair-substitutes made just for
that purpose and no other. A special color, a special size, to stash around
the room so kids can walk. And it seems families can just use chairs they
already have.***
I do see your point. But, I don't know about you, but I don't have anything similar to bob books lying around the house. Print, yes, but simplified print, no. Not unless I buy it (or make it) and put it there.
I have bought step stools for the kitchen so the kids could reach the sink easily. I could just have used a couple of phone books, I guess, but I went ahead and bought a step stool. Because they're more attractive, I guess.
I have one child who *loves* child sized furniture... chairs and such. He *could* just use our regular chairs but the little chairs are fun for him for some reason.
Patti
that purpose and no other. A special color, a special size, to stash around
the room so kids can walk. And it seems families can just use chairs they
already have.***
I do see your point. But, I don't know about you, but I don't have anything similar to bob books lying around the house. Print, yes, but simplified print, no. Not unless I buy it (or make it) and put it there.
I have bought step stools for the kitchen so the kids could reach the sink easily. I could just have used a couple of phone books, I guess, but I went ahead and bought a step stool. Because they're more attractive, I guess.
I have one child who *loves* child sized furniture... chairs and such. He *could* just use our regular chairs but the little chairs are fun for him for some reason.
Patti
zenmomma *
>>My kids didn't want to "READ," they wanted to read specific things.>>That describes Conor. It doesn't describe Casey. She wanted the skill for
the sake of having the skill. She's like that. I don't argue, I facilitate.
And working on the skill in no way stopped or hindered her other learning.
>>And I'm not saying it's sadistic to buy Bob books.>>Well gee that's a relief. Whew.
>>I'm saying that unless it's absolutely and clearly and proveably TRUE thatformulaic teaching methods of traditional school reading programs.>>
>>a child can only learn to read by having three letter words with all short
>>vowels...<snip> I wasn't willing to go back to the
I hardly think Casey has learned anything by traditional school methods. But
she likes what she likes. And she liked sounding out short words at the
beginning. ::shrugs:: Call me a sadist, I let her do it.
And I don't think it has to be an either/or situation. Either kids learn
this way or they don't. Each kid is different. Mine are very different from
each other. Probably from the rest of the world too. LOL
Life is good.
~Mary
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