Unschooling anger management skills?
Lisa M. C. Bentley
Ok. I need some help. My just turned 6 yo daughter is a wonderful
little girl. Bright, aware, kind, all the wonderful adjectives that you
can think of. However, she has a whiny and explosive side that can
erupt in a millisecond. It isn't always predictable and it usually
turns physically violent (from her!) and is almost always only in front
of other people.
Example:
We go to Brownies (where I am a co-leader). She claims to really really
love Brownies and she wants to be part of the troop (she has the option
of quiting or not attending at any point). We are working on an
interesting project (of which she is enjoying, she helps me decide what
it is going to be, and she is doing a fine job of it), then all of a
sudden she gets really mad and starts throwing things. When I pick her
up (to walk her to the hall or outside to talk), she hits and kicks and
screams and tries to stab me with whatever object she happens to be
holding. Once we get outside alone, she is often calm, but if someone
walks by she erupts again.
Another example:
In a pool, she is playing with another child close in age to her. The
other child has a toy that they are playing happily with, my daughter
tries to grab it and the other child says, "You can have it in a minute
when I am done, but I'd like to finish this thing first." My daughter
erupts, causing such a screaming outburst that I have to physically
restrain her until we get into a room alone so that that she doesn't
hurt herself, the other child, the toy, or me. Once she is in a room in
the house (or in the car if we are out and about- different, but similar
situation), she usually gets calm unless she hears other people and
knows that they can hear her (then she starts beating up everything in
sight).
Another example:
We, as a family, go to another person's house. She is forewarned that
we'll be there for 1 hour and she brings books, etc. to occupy her if
she is not enjoying being there. We walk in the door, she is polite and
fine. As soon as we start a conversation with the people in the house,
my daughter starts whining and screaming that she is not having any fun
and this is boring. This quickly turns into her thrashing on the floor,
not hearing any words that come out of our mouths. She is sometimes
consolable only if left completely alone with a book to read (but no one
dare talk to her). The house owners usually wonder what in the world
they did wrong and she glared at them when we leave. [This has happened
twice in the last couple of week, but we seldom go over to others
houses, thank goodness! I'd like to more, but I am afraid to and she is
too young to be left alone. I am thinking of "forcing", yes FORCING on
this one (help me if I am wrong) her to write (with my help) an apology
for her behavior to these other people who think she is a monster. She
does feel sorry for her actions now, or she at least claims to, but I
know that she'd do it again in a second.]
We've role played these situations beforehand (with her "acting" just
fine). We've role reversed, too. We've talked and talked to no
effect. I've read all the books ("Spirited Child", "Explosive Child",
"How to talk...") and tried the examples, but none the children in these
books are anything like my own. I'm at my wit's end. When talking
after a situation, she really believes that she did nothing wrong. She
knows that hitting, etc. is wrong (we don't hit her!), but feels
justified that she had a right to do what she did because she was mad
and the rest of the world was being mean to her.
Help! My parents are here visiting right now (been here 4 days and will
be here 4 more) and they are acting (but not outright saying,
thankfully) that we are parenting her SO bad and that if only we'd put
her in public schools that she'd be shamed into not doing this
nonsense. I know this isn't true, and I can make really good arguments
for the educational aspect of unschooling, but I can't come up with an
argument for the emotional/getting along with others aspect of
unschooling, especially when it appears as if we are failing in this
aspect.
There are natural consequences for these actions: People start not
liking you (including me at times!). Have I given her too much
freedom? Am I turning her into a monster? To be completely honest, I
often feel like she deserves a good spanking (I've told her that is what
other parents often do). I walk away when I feel that way (she usually
follows!) and I know that is wrong. My parents claim (again, with no
real words) that children are only violent like this if their parents
are violent to them! I've learned that this is not true. Help!
Thanks for any and all advice!
-Lisa in AZ
P.S. If you respond, please cc to my e-mail address so that I can read
it sooner (I'm a bit behind with e-mails due to the parents visiting).
cottrellbentley@...
little girl. Bright, aware, kind, all the wonderful adjectives that you
can think of. However, she has a whiny and explosive side that can
erupt in a millisecond. It isn't always predictable and it usually
turns physically violent (from her!) and is almost always only in front
of other people.
Example:
We go to Brownies (where I am a co-leader). She claims to really really
love Brownies and she wants to be part of the troop (she has the option
of quiting or not attending at any point). We are working on an
interesting project (of which she is enjoying, she helps me decide what
it is going to be, and she is doing a fine job of it), then all of a
sudden she gets really mad and starts throwing things. When I pick her
up (to walk her to the hall or outside to talk), she hits and kicks and
screams and tries to stab me with whatever object she happens to be
holding. Once we get outside alone, she is often calm, but if someone
walks by she erupts again.
Another example:
In a pool, she is playing with another child close in age to her. The
other child has a toy that they are playing happily with, my daughter
tries to grab it and the other child says, "You can have it in a minute
when I am done, but I'd like to finish this thing first." My daughter
erupts, causing such a screaming outburst that I have to physically
restrain her until we get into a room alone so that that she doesn't
hurt herself, the other child, the toy, or me. Once she is in a room in
the house (or in the car if we are out and about- different, but similar
situation), she usually gets calm unless she hears other people and
knows that they can hear her (then she starts beating up everything in
sight).
Another example:
We, as a family, go to another person's house. She is forewarned that
we'll be there for 1 hour and she brings books, etc. to occupy her if
she is not enjoying being there. We walk in the door, she is polite and
fine. As soon as we start a conversation with the people in the house,
my daughter starts whining and screaming that she is not having any fun
and this is boring. This quickly turns into her thrashing on the floor,
not hearing any words that come out of our mouths. She is sometimes
consolable only if left completely alone with a book to read (but no one
dare talk to her). The house owners usually wonder what in the world
they did wrong and she glared at them when we leave. [This has happened
twice in the last couple of week, but we seldom go over to others
houses, thank goodness! I'd like to more, but I am afraid to and she is
too young to be left alone. I am thinking of "forcing", yes FORCING on
this one (help me if I am wrong) her to write (with my help) an apology
for her behavior to these other people who think she is a monster. She
does feel sorry for her actions now, or she at least claims to, but I
know that she'd do it again in a second.]
We've role played these situations beforehand (with her "acting" just
fine). We've role reversed, too. We've talked and talked to no
effect. I've read all the books ("Spirited Child", "Explosive Child",
"How to talk...") and tried the examples, but none the children in these
books are anything like my own. I'm at my wit's end. When talking
after a situation, she really believes that she did nothing wrong. She
knows that hitting, etc. is wrong (we don't hit her!), but feels
justified that she had a right to do what she did because she was mad
and the rest of the world was being mean to her.
Help! My parents are here visiting right now (been here 4 days and will
be here 4 more) and they are acting (but not outright saying,
thankfully) that we are parenting her SO bad and that if only we'd put
her in public schools that she'd be shamed into not doing this
nonsense. I know this isn't true, and I can make really good arguments
for the educational aspect of unschooling, but I can't come up with an
argument for the emotional/getting along with others aspect of
unschooling, especially when it appears as if we are failing in this
aspect.
There are natural consequences for these actions: People start not
liking you (including me at times!). Have I given her too much
freedom? Am I turning her into a monster? To be completely honest, I
often feel like she deserves a good spanking (I've told her that is what
other parents often do). I walk away when I feel that way (she usually
follows!) and I know that is wrong. My parents claim (again, with no
real words) that children are only violent like this if their parents
are violent to them! I've learned that this is not true. Help!
Thanks for any and all advice!
-Lisa in AZ
P.S. If you respond, please cc to my e-mail address so that I can read
it sooner (I'm a bit behind with e-mails due to the parents visiting).
cottrellbentley@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/02 11:04:51 AM, cottrellbentley@... writes:
<< I am thinking of "forcing", yes FORCING on
this one (help me if I am wrong) her to write (with my help) an apology
for her behavior to these other people who think she is a monster. She
does feel sorry for her actions now, or she at least claims to, but I
know that she'd do it again in a second.] >>
I wouldn't.
It won't help your relationship with her at all, and they wouldn't be sincere
apologies.
She's five. Maybe she just needs to hang around with you and NOT other
people for a while.
-=-We go to Brownies (where I am a co-leader). She claims to really really
love Brownies and she wants to be part of the troop (she has the option
of quiting or not attending at any point). -=-
Can she do the group stuff from your lap?
If she's not handling it, she's probably just not old enough to handle it.
She gets older every day, every moment, and that getting older will probably
be easier without a mass of frustration and regret and criticism.
Sandra
<< I am thinking of "forcing", yes FORCING on
this one (help me if I am wrong) her to write (with my help) an apology
for her behavior to these other people who think she is a monster. She
does feel sorry for her actions now, or she at least claims to, but I
know that she'd do it again in a second.] >>
I wouldn't.
It won't help your relationship with her at all, and they wouldn't be sincere
apologies.
She's five. Maybe she just needs to hang around with you and NOT other
people for a while.
-=-We go to Brownies (where I am a co-leader). She claims to really really
love Brownies and she wants to be part of the troop (she has the option
of quiting or not attending at any point). -=-
Can she do the group stuff from your lap?
If she's not handling it, she's probably just not old enough to handle it.
She gets older every day, every moment, and that getting older will probably
be easier without a mass of frustration and regret and criticism.
Sandra
Myranda
Hi Lisa,
Does your daughter listen at home when you tell her to do things or does she argue, refuse, or have a tantrum? Does she take responsibility for her actions or blame others? Does she show empathy and/or sympathy for others?
I've been doing a lot of research on my own son's behavior "problems" and have run across a lot of different things that this sounds like!!!
Myranda
Ok. I need some help. My just turned 6 yo daughter is a wonderful
little girl. Bright, aware, kind, all the wonderful adjectives that you
can think of. However, she has a whiny and explosive side that can
erupt in a millisecond. It isn't always predictable and it usually
turns physically violent (from her!) and is almost always only in front
of other people.
Example:
We go to Brownies (where I am a co-leader). She claims to really really
love Brownies and she wants to be part of the troop (she has the option
of quiting or not attending at any point). We are working on an
interesting project (of which she is enjoying, she helps me decide what
it is going to be, and she is doing a fine job of it), then all of a
sudden she gets really mad and starts throwing things. When I pick her
up (to walk her to the hall or outside to talk), she hits and kicks and
screams and tries to stab me with whatever object she happens to be
holding. Once we get outside alone, she is often calm, but if someone
walks by she erupts again.
Another example:
In a pool, she is playing with another child close in age to her. The
other child has a toy that they are playing happily with, my daughter
tries to grab it and the other child says, "You can have it in a minute
when I am done, but I'd like to finish this thing first." My daughter
erupts, causing such a screaming outburst that I have to physically
restrain her until we get into a room alone so that that she doesn't
hurt herself, the other child, the toy, or me. Once she is in a room in
the house (or in the car if we are out and about- different, but similar
situation), she usually gets calm unless she hears other people and
knows that they can hear her (then she starts beating up everything in
sight).
Another example:
We, as a family, go to another person's house. She is forewarned that
we'll be there for 1 hour and she brings books, etc. to occupy her if
she is not enjoying being there. We walk in the door, she is polite and
fine. As soon as we start a conversation with the people in the house,
my daughter starts whining and screaming that she is not having any fun
and this is boring. This quickly turns into her thrashing on the floor,
not hearing any words that come out of our mouths. She is sometimes
consolable only if left completely alone with a book to read (but no one
dare talk to her). The house owners usually wonder what in the world
they did wrong and she glared at them when we leave. [This has happened
twice in the last couple of week, but we seldom go over to others
houses, thank goodness! I'd like to more, but I am afraid to and she is
too young to be left alone. I am thinking of "forcing", yes FORCING on
this one (help me if I am wrong) her to write (with my help) an apology
for her behavior to these other people who think she is a monster. She
does feel sorry for her actions now, or she at least claims to, but I
know that she'd do it again in a second.]
We've role played these situations beforehand (with her "acting" just
fine). We've role reversed, too. We've talked and talked to no
effect. I've read all the books ("Spirited Child", "Explosive Child",
"How to talk...") and tried the examples, but none the children in these
books are anything like my own. I'm at my wit's end. When talking
after a situation, she really believes that she did nothing wrong. She
knows that hitting, etc. is wrong (we don't hit her!), but feels
justified that she had a right to do what she did because she was mad
and the rest of the world was being mean to her.
Help! My parents are here visiting right now (been here 4 days and will
be here 4 more) and they are acting (but not outright saying,
thankfully) that we are parenting her SO bad and that if only we'd put
her in public schools that she'd be shamed into not doing this
nonsense. I know this isn't true, and I can make really good arguments
for the educational aspect of unschooling, but I can't come up with an
argument for the emotional/getting along with others aspect of
unschooling, especially when it appears as if we are failing in this
aspect.
There are natural consequences for these actions: People start not
liking you (including me at times!). Have I given her too much
freedom? Am I turning her into a monster? To be completely honest, I
often feel like she deserves a good spanking (I've told her that is what
other parents often do). I walk away when I feel that way (she usually
follows!) and I know that is wrong. My parents claim (again, with no
real words) that children are only violent like this if their parents
are violent to them! I've learned that this is not true. Help!
Thanks for any and all advice!
-Lisa in AZ
P.S. If you respond, please cc to my e-mail address so that I can read
it sooner (I'm a bit behind with e-mails due to the parents visiting).
cottrellbentley@...
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Does your daughter listen at home when you tell her to do things or does she argue, refuse, or have a tantrum? Does she take responsibility for her actions or blame others? Does she show empathy and/or sympathy for others?
I've been doing a lot of research on my own son's behavior "problems" and have run across a lot of different things that this sounds like!!!
Myranda
Ok. I need some help. My just turned 6 yo daughter is a wonderful
little girl. Bright, aware, kind, all the wonderful adjectives that you
can think of. However, she has a whiny and explosive side that can
erupt in a millisecond. It isn't always predictable and it usually
turns physically violent (from her!) and is almost always only in front
of other people.
Example:
We go to Brownies (where I am a co-leader). She claims to really really
love Brownies and she wants to be part of the troop (she has the option
of quiting or not attending at any point). We are working on an
interesting project (of which she is enjoying, she helps me decide what
it is going to be, and she is doing a fine job of it), then all of a
sudden she gets really mad and starts throwing things. When I pick her
up (to walk her to the hall or outside to talk), she hits and kicks and
screams and tries to stab me with whatever object she happens to be
holding. Once we get outside alone, she is often calm, but if someone
walks by she erupts again.
Another example:
In a pool, she is playing with another child close in age to her. The
other child has a toy that they are playing happily with, my daughter
tries to grab it and the other child says, "You can have it in a minute
when I am done, but I'd like to finish this thing first." My daughter
erupts, causing such a screaming outburst that I have to physically
restrain her until we get into a room alone so that that she doesn't
hurt herself, the other child, the toy, or me. Once she is in a room in
the house (or in the car if we are out and about- different, but similar
situation), she usually gets calm unless she hears other people and
knows that they can hear her (then she starts beating up everything in
sight).
Another example:
We, as a family, go to another person's house. She is forewarned that
we'll be there for 1 hour and she brings books, etc. to occupy her if
she is not enjoying being there. We walk in the door, she is polite and
fine. As soon as we start a conversation with the people in the house,
my daughter starts whining and screaming that she is not having any fun
and this is boring. This quickly turns into her thrashing on the floor,
not hearing any words that come out of our mouths. She is sometimes
consolable only if left completely alone with a book to read (but no one
dare talk to her). The house owners usually wonder what in the world
they did wrong and she glared at them when we leave. [This has happened
twice in the last couple of week, but we seldom go over to others
houses, thank goodness! I'd like to more, but I am afraid to and she is
too young to be left alone. I am thinking of "forcing", yes FORCING on
this one (help me if I am wrong) her to write (with my help) an apology
for her behavior to these other people who think she is a monster. She
does feel sorry for her actions now, or she at least claims to, but I
know that she'd do it again in a second.]
We've role played these situations beforehand (with her "acting" just
fine). We've role reversed, too. We've talked and talked to no
effect. I've read all the books ("Spirited Child", "Explosive Child",
"How to talk...") and tried the examples, but none the children in these
books are anything like my own. I'm at my wit's end. When talking
after a situation, she really believes that she did nothing wrong. She
knows that hitting, etc. is wrong (we don't hit her!), but feels
justified that she had a right to do what she did because she was mad
and the rest of the world was being mean to her.
Help! My parents are here visiting right now (been here 4 days and will
be here 4 more) and they are acting (but not outright saying,
thankfully) that we are parenting her SO bad and that if only we'd put
her in public schools that she'd be shamed into not doing this
nonsense. I know this isn't true, and I can make really good arguments
for the educational aspect of unschooling, but I can't come up with an
argument for the emotional/getting along with others aspect of
unschooling, especially when it appears as if we are failing in this
aspect.
There are natural consequences for these actions: People start not
liking you (including me at times!). Have I given her too much
freedom? Am I turning her into a monster? To be completely honest, I
often feel like she deserves a good spanking (I've told her that is what
other parents often do). I walk away when I feel that way (she usually
follows!) and I know that is wrong. My parents claim (again, with no
real words) that children are only violent like this if their parents
are violent to them! I've learned that this is not true. Help!
Thanks for any and all advice!
-Lisa in AZ
P.S. If you respond, please cc to my e-mail address so that I can read
it sooner (I'm a bit behind with e-mails due to the parents visiting).
cottrellbentley@...
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa M. C. Bentley
She almost always listens when we're at home (unless there are other
people here). She's quite helpful and nice when it is just us (usually,
within her "normal" age appropriate range). When she's not in "tantrum
mode" she takes responsibility. Again, if other people are around, she
acts differently. Occasionally she blames her little sister for
"e-noying" her.
As for sympathy or empathy, she occasionally shows concern for others
but has never really shown real sympathy. She has also never been
embarassed or ashamed, as far as I can tell.
Thanks for your help. I'd be interested in any ideas that you've come
across. BTW, she has shown this tantruming screaming side of her
personality since she was an infant. It is less now than when she was a
baby, but it is affecting her relationship with others now (and MY
relationships with others). Always around others and she has a strong
need to be in physical contact with me &/or DH.
THANK YOU!
-Lisa
people here). She's quite helpful and nice when it is just us (usually,
within her "normal" age appropriate range). When she's not in "tantrum
mode" she takes responsibility. Again, if other people are around, she
acts differently. Occasionally she blames her little sister for
"e-noying" her.
As for sympathy or empathy, she occasionally shows concern for others
but has never really shown real sympathy. She has also never been
embarassed or ashamed, as far as I can tell.
Thanks for your help. I'd be interested in any ideas that you've come
across. BTW, she has shown this tantruming screaming side of her
personality since she was an infant. It is less now than when she was a
baby, but it is affecting her relationship with others now (and MY
relationships with others). Always around others and she has a strong
need to be in physical contact with me &/or DH.
THANK YOU!
-Lisa
Lisa M. C. Bentley
> It won't help your relationship with her at all, and they wouldn't be sincereYou are right, of course. There is just this part of me that wants the
> apologies.
world to think that I am a good MOM. I want relationships with these
people and my daughter is making it so I can't. I've been right there
ever time something like this has happened and my daughter really is the
one at fault and these people really do deserve apologies. I will
probably write one from only me (and DH), though, since our daughter
doesn't seem to understand this concept fully yet.
> She's five. Maybe she just needs to hang around with you and NOT otherShe is 6 (just turned) and again, you are right. However, it just isn't
> people for a while.
always possible. My parents are here right now and I can't make them go
away for 4 more days. They visit about 3x a year and if I want us to
have a relationship with them (and I do), then we have to put up with
them being here. We can avoid a lot of other outside interactions and
we usually do, but on the rare occasion that I want us to go somewhere,
I'd like to do it. Thank you for the advice. It is making me think
that we need to step back a bit and do less for a while just like we
couldn't do anything when she was a baby.
> Can she do the group stuff from your lap?This is a good idea. I've taken on the commitment and responsibility of
being a co-leader, though (so that I am involved, etc.). I am going to
talk to my co-leader and ask her to help find more people to help with
our troop for a while so that I can be more involved directly with my
daughter only. (This last time I took my sister to be Zoe's helper and
it didn't make anything better.)
> If she's not handling it, she's probably just not old enough to handle it.Right. I agree. However... :) How does a person learn that they
> She gets older every day, every moment, and that getting older will probably
> be easier without a mass of frustration and regret and criticism.
SHOULD be regretful and feel bad when they truly have done something
wrong? Some behaviors really aren't acceptable and I, as a good mother,
just can't allow her to be cruel and physically harming. I'm asking
this in all seriousness: Why would it be bad for her to be regretful
and ashamed of her actions when her actions are wrong?
THANK YOU!
-Lisa in AZ
P.S. I'm continuing this thread on the group in case it could possibly
help anyone else, or strike an idea in anyone else's head.
Betsy
**
You are right, of course. There is just this part of me that wants the
world to think that I am a good MOM. I want relationships with these
people and my daughter is making it so I can't. I've been right there
ever time something like this has happened and my daughter really is the
one at fault and these people really do deserve apologies. I will
probably write one from only me (and DH), though, since our daughter
doesn't seem to understand this concept fully yet.**
I just want to say that I think your daughter's behavior is just "her"
and doesn't come from your parenting. I hope you can believe that. I
think that if you can feel like you don't have to "own" her behavior,
just "deal" with it, that may help you feel calmer and less ashamed when
this stuff starts.
When I (personally) have a temper outburst, I know it comes from feeling
really deeply threatened. So there may be a bit of fear of people or
groups underlying your daughter's reactions. (I'm really guessing here.)
Sometimes kids who are really extremely emotional have undiagnosed food
allergies, like to wheat or dairy or food dyes.
Betsy
You are right, of course. There is just this part of me that wants the
world to think that I am a good MOM. I want relationships with these
people and my daughter is making it so I can't. I've been right there
ever time something like this has happened and my daughter really is the
one at fault and these people really do deserve apologies. I will
probably write one from only me (and DH), though, since our daughter
doesn't seem to understand this concept fully yet.**
I just want to say that I think your daughter's behavior is just "her"
and doesn't come from your parenting. I hope you can believe that. I
think that if you can feel like you don't have to "own" her behavior,
just "deal" with it, that may help you feel calmer and less ashamed when
this stuff starts.
When I (personally) have a temper outburst, I know it comes from feeling
really deeply threatened. So there may be a bit of fear of people or
groups underlying your daughter's reactions. (I'm really guessing here.)
Sometimes kids who are really extremely emotional have undiagnosed food
allergies, like to wheat or dairy or food dyes.
Betsy
Valerie
>mother,
> Right. I agree. However... :) How does a person learn that they
> SHOULD be regretful and feel bad when they truly have done something
> wrong? Some behaviors really aren't acceptable and I, as a good
> just can't allow her to be cruel and physically harming. I'm askingregretful
> this in all seriousness: Why would it be bad for her to be
> and ashamed of her actions when her actions are wrong?Summerhill by A.S.Neill is the book that helped me understand that
>
> THANK YOU!
> -Lisa in AZ
>
young children, as a rule, cannot understand sarcasm and sympathy and
they are naturally selfish. It wouldn't be bad for her to be
regretful or ashamed of her actions as long as she arrives at these
feelings without being made to feel that way. Making an issue a moral
one is something else they don't buy into. Making someone feel guilty
is an all too common way to manipulate others into acting in a way
that you find acceptable. I'm not advocating you standing by watching
her physically harm someone or herself. I also agree with ??? who
said that maybe cutting back on outside activities would be best.
Another great book, Magical Child explains about an experiment where
children who had the full attention of at least one adult until age
seven were less likely to be needy consumers. I believe that is why
Laurie has never been much of a consumer (books not included). She
just doesn't like "stuff."
love, Valerie
MO Milligans
At 09:57 AM 9/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
{{{{Lisa}}}} Giant hugs coming your way. I wish I had some advice for you,
but all I know to do is just be here for you to vent to. You're in our
prayers for a "good for everyone" solution.
Todd
--
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free will" -Rush (and Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
--
>Thanks for any and all advice!==
>
>-Lisa in AZ
{{{{Lisa}}}} Giant hugs coming your way. I wish I had some advice for you,
but all I know to do is just be here for you to vent to. You're in our
prayers for a "good for everyone" solution.
Todd
--
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free will" -Rush (and Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
--