sherri probus

<Then one day she
< was reading a book, and someone gave us a link to a site that said what
< grade-levels different books were.

Todd,

Do you happen to remember the link for that website or what the name was?
At the age of 8 my dd was reading at a 5th grade level and I am curious to
know how she has progressed. Thanks!

Sherri P.


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MO Milligans

At 07:27 PM 9/12/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Todd,
>
>Do you happen to remember the link for that website or what the name was?
>At the age of 8 my dd was reading at a 5th grade level and I am curious to
>know how she has progressed. Thanks!
>
>Sherri P.
==
Not right off-hand, but I'm looking :) I'll post the link (if I still have
it) as soon as I find it.

Todd

Our HOME page
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html

sherri probus

The other Ren,
Thanks for the website link. My daughter reads avidly but I'm not sure what level
most of the books are. After a certain level I think they stop putting it on the back
of the books.

Todd,
Thanks for telling us all about the site. If it wasn't for your post, I wouldn't be able
to satisfy my curiosity.

Sherri P.


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MO Milligans

At 11:28 PM 9/12/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Todd,
>Thanks for telling us all about the site. If it wasn't for your post, I
>wouldn't be able
>to satisfy my curiosity.
>
>Sherri P.
==
No problem. Unfortunately, *I* never did find the link. Luckily, Ren (the
other one<g>) was , so there ya go :-)

Todd

Our HOME page
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html

Fetteroll

on 9/12/02 7:27 PM, sherri probus at s.probus@... wrote:

> Do you happen to remember the link for that website or what the name was?
> At the age of 8 my dd was reading at a 5th grade level and I am curious to
> know how she has progressed. Thanks!

What if she isn't reading 3 levels beyond her age any more? What if she's at
grade level?

Or what if she's reading *below* grade level? What will you do? How will you
feel?

It's comforting to know they're beyond some arbitrary measurement. But even
though it's totally natural, it's unsettling if they're behind. The
artificial measurement is like a ball and chain that ties our thinking and
our actions to the school.

Kids need to read at grade level in school because the textbooks are written
"at grade level". In real life, what's important is whether the content is
meeting their needs.

If we're taking a leisurely whimsical ramble through the woods and realize
there are milestones for a "proper" walk, what would be the reason for
checking our "progress" on the milestones if our walk was suiting our needs?
If we recognize that what we are discovering and exploring on our walk is
what is meaningful and someone else's milestones are meaningless, then
there's no reason to check our progress against someone else's . Our
progress is how well our exploration is meeting *our* needs. If we decide
someone else's milestones are important -- and why would we check if we
didn't think there was some importance to them? -- then how possible is it
to continue meeting our own needs without being conscious of there being a
"right" or "more important" or "better" agenda?

Joyce

MO Milligans

At 06:40 AM 9/13/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Or what if she's reading *below* grade level? What will you do? How will you
>feel?
==
It's been over a year for us since we've checked any of the books our DD
reads for "grade level". Honestly, we don't even worry about that anymore.
I know this question wasn't really addressed to me, but I thought it an
interesting question.<g> But when we first saw the site way back when, it
was more of an "ah, okay, she's fine" kind of thing, and we've never been
back. Besides, a lot of the books we have weren't even on the list :)

Todd

Our HOME page
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html

Mary Bianco

>From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>

>What if she isn't reading 3 levels beyond her age any more? What if she's
>at
>grade level?
>
>Or what if she's reading *below* grade level? What will you do? How will
>you
>feel?
>It's comforting to know they're beyond some arbitrary measurement. But even
>though it's totally natural, it's unsettling if they're behind. The
>artificial measurement is like a ball and chain that ties our thinking and
>our actions to the school.>>


I agree also with this line of thinking. It's just like my niece had this
big major problem with my baby being 3 months younger than hers and Alyssa
would already be crawling and walking when her's wasn't. She would actually
call her baby lazy and made a big deal out of it. I've had 3 kids walk at 8
months and 1 at a year. They're all walking fine now. 1 very early talker
and 3 very late talkers. The late "bloomers" will give the early one a run
for her money anyday with their mouths!!!

I see it the same with learning. I know homeschool kids that started reading
at 5 and others not until 12. By the time they're 18, you can't tell the
difference and they are all reading. So why wonder what level, because I
think if it does matter, if they are "below" one might not unschool like
they did before.

I had a sight from the World Book I think it was where they list for each
grade level what children "should" be learning. When the kids were little,
like 4, I would check this sight and see that they already knew stuff ahead
of what was mentioned. Then I started to think about what difference it made
and thought about what we are doing here and how I feel about it. Haven't
looked at it since.

I once asked my husband, (to see if we were on the same wavelength) before
our 2 were reading, what would happen if they were 12 and still not reading?
He said he would have no problem with that. He said if they got to be 18,
then he might start worrying!!! Good thing we click on this.

Mary B

_________________________________________________________________
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sherri probus

Joyce,
In response to your questions:
What if she isn't reading 3 levels beyond her age any more? What if she's at
grade level?

Or what if she's reading *below* grade level? What will you do? How will you
feel?

When I first started homeschooling her, we tried Hooked on Phonics which resulted
in tears of frustration. Both on her part and mine. That was the end of "school."

I always said that if I made sure she could read then everything else she wanted to
learn would be at her disposal. We do not have a curriculum, or worksheets, or workbooks
for that matter. We just live our lives one day at a time with no regard to "school."

So to answer your questions, I know that she is were she needs to be to do whatever she
chooses. If she wants to read a novel by Stephen King for example, she would do just
that.

Whatever level she is at is fine with me. She will progress at her own pace as she always has.
How I feel about that is not important. I will not force her to read more to improve her abilities.
I won't resort to "school" again at any cost.

I hope this answers your questions.

Sherri P.




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Betsy

**

If we're taking a leisurely whimsical ramble through the woods and realize
there are milestones for a "proper" walk, what would be the reason for
checking our "progress" on the milestones if our walk was suiting our needs?**

Great analogy! I took a two-mile, brisk walk this morning with a much
taller, fitter friend. And I have the blisters and sore knees to prove it.

(I might have been happier if I had signed up for Remedial Strolling. <g>)

Betsy

Fetteroll

on 9/13/02 1:39 PM, sherri probus at s.probus@... wrote:

> Whatever level she is at is fine with me. She will progress at her own pace
> as she always has.
> How I feel about that is not important. I will not force her to read more to
> improve her abilities.
> I won't resort to "school" again at any cost.

Then why the concern over her reading level?

I'm not trying to beat you up and say you're wrong wrong wrong to even think
this way. But you seem to be asking one thing and saying another which is
often a good time to stop and to ask yourself why! :-)

Why do you want to know what her reading level is if you don't care what her
reading level is?

Joyce

Michael Millard

I know chinaberry catalogue had books that state the grade level.
www.chinaberry.com The scary thing about reading on grade level is that most
adults read on a 7th grade level! Mary in Va.

sherri probus

Joyce,

I never said that I was concerned. I just said that I was curious.
She spells and reads better than her Dad, who graduated fram high school, but
still can't master either one.

Maybe, I sometimes need reassurance that I made the right choice.

Sherri P


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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/13/02 2:33:41 PM, nomads3@... writes:

<< The scary thing about reading on grade level is that most
adults read on a 7th grade level! >>

Don't put much stock in "reading levels," truly.

It works on a formula for the length of sentence and average word length.
It's not about the ideas in the writing, or the complexity of short
sentences. It's a very mechanical (and lame) formula.

Sandra, who once taught remedial reading, long ago

[email protected]

I have lifted one little bit from another homeschooling list. NOT an
unschooling list, but general homeschooling:

-=-You might try the BOB series that any school supply store should have.
They are simple and you get immediate results from them I used them on some
of mine and they were all reading by age 41/2. Hope this helps -=-


Reading a Bob book gets "immediate results," perhaps, but what they are
reading (at age 4 1/2 or whatever) is... a Bob book.

I can't speak French, but I took it for two years in high school and a year
in college. I can interpret things in writing. I can follow subtitles
sometimes to see how they translated something.

Reading a Bob book isn't fluent reading, and is (in my opinion) nothing to
get excited about.

Someone "riding" a stationary bike is not riding a bike.
Someone riding a mechanical bull is not a bullrider (Kirby slipped into a
line of should've-been-18-or-older and rode the mechanical bull at the state
fair, and hurt himself badly enough he couldn't teach karate on Tuesday, but
he didn't "ride a bull.")

There is building up to reading, which can take months or years. And then
there is reading. Reading without regard to word length or "reading level,"
but picking up mail or a magazine and reading.

What's the rush? Kids in school can't learn without reading. Reading is IT
there.

Kids at home can't STOP learning, and they don't NEED to read to learn,
because they are around people who love them enough to read to them, or to
bring in videos, or books on tape, or to take the kids out to REAL places
instead of reading about them in babyfied library books with 36 pages
designed to be easy enough for little kids to read and do book reports on.

Those books are a great waste of trees. Go see some REAL trees, and don't
try to rush reading, which can and will come on its own, effortlessly, and
joyfully.

Sandra

[email protected]

> Reading a Bob book isn't fluent reading, and is (in my opinion) nothing to
> get excited about.

I don't know if this is a good analogy or not, but let's compare it to learning to ride a bike. To me, reading a bob book from cover to cover and calling it reading is not the same thing as riding a stationary bike and calling it "riding a bike." When my middle son learned to ride a bike he did it very gradually, and for a while he would pedal for a short time and then need to put his feet down to catch himself before he tried again. These short stints of "success" encouraged him and I can't imagine saying to him "you only did it a little bit, that's nothing to get excited about." It's been the same thing with bob books in my house. My first son picked up reading effortlessly... it seemed like he went from not reading at all to reading whatever he wanted. My second son is approaching it differently... he *isn't* picking it up as quickly/suddenly as his brother but his interest is *much* greater. He talks about it all the time... if he "reads" a stop sign, and says "I just read that, didn't I?!" who am I to tell him, "well you're not really reading unless you can pick up any newspaper or full length novel and read it."
I think that reading a bob book *is* reading, albeit in the early stages, and for some kids it gives them a feeling of success and encouragement to be able to read something, even if it's something simple, a baby step. I don't think there's anything wrong with bob books so long as they're used according to the child's wishes and not inflicted as a lesson or necessity.


> Those books are a great waste of trees. Go see some REAL trees, and don't
> try to rush reading, which can and will come on its own, effortlessly, and
> joyfully.

Do you have no easy reading material in your home at all? No Dr. Seuss or anything like it? I'm not convinced that phonetically controlled books (dr. seuss- which my kids love- or bob books or any others) are more of a waste of trees than any other reading material.

Patti

[email protected]

On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:22:47 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
> There is building up to reading, which can take months or years.
> And then
> there is reading. Reading without regard to word length or "reading
> level,"
> but picking up mail or a magazine and reading.

I think it's all reading. The kid who points to the Dairy Queen sign and
yells "Dairy Queen!" just read. So did the kid who reads "Mat sat on Sam.
Sam sat on Mat", and the kid who reads "It is an ancient Mariner, and he
stoppeth one of three". Why try to take away anyone's joy at reading and
proclaim it not "real" reading because they can't read everything?

Rain can play soccer, with kids her age. This is her forth year playing.
If you threw her in with professional soccer players, though, she
wouldn't be able to play soccer- she's be pretty much running around in
circles, out of her depth. We used to play soccer with our friend Nathan,
when he was 4. He proclaimed himself goalie whenever he wanted to pick up
the ball, and if Rain had tried she could have dribbled circles around
him. He did kick hard, and he generally kicked in the right direction. We
said things like, "Hey, Nath, want to play some soccer?" and played with
him...

Some people will never be able to pick up a magazine and read. Some
people will be able to pick up a journal on anaplastic thyroid tumors and
read it (I can't. I've tried, but my comprehension is definitely
lacking). Reading isn't a lot of non-reading steps and then a big jump to
"reading (although with many kids there are "jumps" in fluency, either
one or more than one) - it's a journey, from reading nothing to reading
everything, and most people are somewhere in the middle.

And about reading levels - a couple of years ago, when Rain was 7ish, she
read some of the Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle books (although not many - the
moralism and disrespect towards children became hard to take). A friend
of mine was teaching second grade then, and she was really impressed. Her
school used a system of leveling books called the Lexile system, and she
told me Mrs. Piggle Wiggle books were very high. They are online -
www.lexile.com - so I went and looked up a few books, and it was totally
screwy. I don't remember any examples, but lots of books that had really
complex ideas and vocabulary were ranked "low", and books like Mrs.
Piggle Piggle were ranked around 6th or 7th grade, if I remember right.

Dar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/13/02 10:31:00 PM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:

<< Do you have no easy reading material in your home at all? No Dr. Seuss or
anything like it? >>

Yes, we do. And when the kids do learn to read, most of that is drivel that
they won't read because it's not ABOUT anything. They like books that are
funny or interesting or informative or beautiful, not just strings of easily
pronounceable words.

<<I'm not convinced that phonetically controlled books (dr. seuss- which my
kids love- or bob books or any others) are more of a waste of trees than any
other reading material.>>

Mine love the Sneetches and Yertle the Turtle, because the language is good
and the art is attractive, and the stories are philosophical. But those
stories designed JUST for the purposes of early reading are not attractive to
them--one fish, two fish; hop on pop; those are not in the same category as
the pale green pants with nobody inside them.

A child who goes a few feet on a bicycle is learning to ride a bike, but when
there's a trail-ride picnic on bikes, he's not ready to go along except in a
trailer or a kid seat.

I haven't found an advantage, outside of school, of claiming a child is
reading when he or she is only just beginning to sound out "Bob." If they
can only read SOME things then they are reading some things.

Sandra

[email protected]

On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:54:23 -0500 <patti.schmidt2@...> writes:
>
>He talks about it
> all the time... if he "reads" a stop sign, and says "I just read
> that, didn't I?!" who am I to tell him, "well you're not really
> reading unless you can pick up any newspaper or full length novel
> and read it."

Yeah. When Rain was three or four, I think she saw reading as almost a
kind of magic - people looked at marks on a page and translated them into
stories. It was so amazing to her, and it was such a thrill to be able to
do it, even a little bit. A couple of years later driving the car was the
same thing, and I stuck her in my lap and she steered and parked. At nine
she can drive fine on a dirt country road, although probably not in
traffic. But she is *driving*.

> I don't think there's anything wrong with bob
> books so long as they're used according to the child's wishes and
> not inflicted as a lesson or necessity.


Rain found a set of Bob books when she was 3 and we were hanging out at
an air conditioned Borders during a really hot Phoenix heat spell, I
think it was the year we hit 122. She was three, and just absolutely
charmed by them, and I spent money I really didn't have to buy the set.
They were the perfect size for her little hands, and she dragged them
around for a long while, reading them over and over. This was the same
time period when I was reading various translations of The Odyssey to
her, her Greek Myth Obsession years.

(Now she's reading a book called Troy, loosely based on The Iliad. Anyone
read it? She just looked up and said, "There's quite a bit of screwing in
this book Lindsay lent me." Hmmmm.).

Do I think she read longer books sooner because of those Bob books? No,
probably not, but that wasn't the point. She enjoyed reading them then,
and it's not for me to decide what she reads, now or then (I probably
wouldn't have chosen a book with "quite a bit of screwing"). Later she
dragged around "In a Dark, Dark Room and Other Scary Stories", which I
believe was a Step 1 Reader, and a book called Greek Myths.

I don't inflict my values on what she reads, or what she watches on TV,
or whatever. Just because I think a book is a "waste of a tree" doesn't
mean she doesn't find it valuable. Millions of people find value in
Danielle Steele books, and romance novels.

Dar

Valerie

> > Those books are a great waste of trees. Go see some REAL trees,
and don't
> > try to rush reading, which can and will come on its own,
effortlessly, and
> > joyfully.
>
> Do you have no easy reading material in your home at all? No Dr.
Seuss or anything like it? I'm not convinced that phonetically
controlled books (dr. seuss- which my kids love- or bob books or any
others) are more of a waste of trees than any other reading material.
>
> Patti

Thank you Patti. I've always said that the first book Laurie read was
the Little House books, but she "read" Dr. Suess before that. She
says that she wasn't reading it to the younger children that I
babysat, but that she had memorized it from me reading to them.
Either way, she was extremely proud of herself for reading to the
other kids, whether it was considered real reading or not.

love, Valerie

Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
>
> On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:22:47 EDT SandraDodd@a... writes:
> > There is building up to reading, which can take months or years.
> > And then
> > there is reading. Reading without regard to word length
or "reading
> > level,"
> > but picking up mail or a magazine and reading.
>
> I think it's all reading. The kid who points to the Dairy Queen
sign and
> yells "Dairy Queen!" just read. So did the kid who reads "Mat sat
on Sam.
> Sam sat on Mat", and the kid who reads "It is an ancient Mariner,
and he
> stoppeth one of three". Why try to take away anyone's joy at
reading and
> proclaim it not "real" reading because they can't read everything?
>
> Dar
>
When Laurie was three years old, my dad consistently questioned my
intent to not send her to school and would ask questions that caused
me to roll my eyes and sigh. One day he asked me if she could read
yet. I said, "Dad, she's three years old and will read when she's
ready." He said, "Ah, but I beg to differ. She can already read and
I'll prove it to you." I was a bit perplexed at his change of
attitude until he pulled out a box of Cheerios and held it up to
Laurie and asked her if she knew what it said. Of course she knew.
Then he started grabbing other food items and she "read" every one.
Then they sat together reading National Geographic and sticking their
tongues out at me. lol

love, Valerie

Valerie

> I haven't found an advantage, outside of school, of claiming a
child is
> reading when he or she is only just beginning to sound out "Bob."
If they
> can only read SOME things then they are reading some things.
>
> Sandra

What about their personal pride in reading "some" things? Their
feeling of accomplishment? That's an advantage in my opinion.

love, Valerie

se

>I don't inflict my values on what she reads, or what she watches on TV,
>or whatever. Just because I think a book is a "waste of a tree" doesn't
>mean she doesn't find it valuable. Millions of people find value in
>Danielle Steele books, and romance novels.
>
>Dar
>
I agree with your Daron but instead of buying the books that i don't really
care for, we get them from the library:) That way when the craze for the
particular book is over I don't have to be stuck with it on my shelf. I
read a lot of Danielle Steele while I was in university more than 20 years
ago.
Susanna

"Knit on, with confidence and hope, through all crises."
Elizabeth Zimmermann 1910-2000

Fetteroll

on 9/14/02 11:02 AM, Valerie at valfitz@... wrote:

>> I haven't found an advantage, outside of school, of claiming a
> child is
>> reading when he or she is only just beginning to sound out "Bob."

The operative word in Sandra's point is "claiming" as in telling other
parents that "my child is reading".

Joyce

[email protected]

> A child who goes a few feet on a bicycle is learning to ride a bike, but when
> there's a trail-ride picnic on bikes, he's not ready to go along except in a
> trailer or a kid seat.

Of course... but that doesn't mean that the early steps of learning to ride a bike are "nothing to get excited about."

> I haven't found an advantage, outside of school, of claiming a child is
> reading when he or she is only just beginning to sound out "Bob."

If a child picks up and reads The Cat in the Hat then they just read The Cat in the Hat. Just because they cannot yet read Harry Potter doesn't change the fact that they *did* just read *something*.
My nine year old is capable of reading Harry Potter except for the occasional unusually long or unfamiliar word which he needs help with. Is he therefore not "really" reading yet? Actually, although I've always been a voracious reader, I still occasionally come across a new word that I either cannot pronounce or don't know the definition of.

At what exact point in the reading continuum do we cross the line between just sounding out and nothing to be excited about and "really reading" where it's okay to get excited?

Patti

Michael Millard

After having taught ESL to Mexican children on the border of Texas, I would
like to point out that reading ( as S.Dodd said, sounding out Bob) IS
reading. However, the true test comes with comprehension, IMHO. For example,
I can read the word 'quiero' as 'qwero'. Did I READ it? SURE! Does anyone
have a CLUE as to what I am saying? NO! They just politely smile at the
gringo. If I were comprehending the word ( as in had previously heard it
spoken and knew what it meant when pronounced correctly but had never seen
it written) then I would have recognized the word IN CONTEXT and known its
meaning. Just because one can READ a word, isn't saying much, again IMHO.
Just like the kid who can count to 100. Great memory but where is the 1:1
correspondence knowledge? Just my .02 Mary in Va.

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/14/02 9:03:09 AM, valfitz@... writes:

<< What about their personal pride in reading "some" things? Their
feeling of accomplishment? That's an advantage in my opinion. >>

Well they knew when they could recognize logos and signs, and when they could
read the names of people in the family, and their dogs and cats and stuffed
animals' names. Reading some things is reading some things.

Knowing a can of beans from a can of corn is looking at pictures.

Part of my resistence to calling that reading is those parents who are
somewhat desperate for their children to pass milestones, and so they say
"He's reading" but they can't leave him a note that says "I went to the store
and will be back at 9:00."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/14/02 11:01:20 AM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:

<< Actually, although I've always been a voracious reader, I still
occasionally come across a new word that I either cannot pronounce or don't
know the definition of. >>

Me too, this week in a Tom Clancy book, and I mentioned it to the kids (in
the process of getting them to bring me a dictionary where I was laid up on
the couch).

Holly is learning to play fiddle, but she can only play one song. And she
says "I'm learning. I know one song and parts of some more."

<<
At what exact point in the reading continuum do we cross the line between
just sounding out and nothing to be excited about and "really reading" where
it's okay to get excited? >>

Ideally, I guess, it wouldn't be particularly exciting if it's gradual.

I understand the points about it being reading even if it's Cat in the Hat or
Bob. I mentioned this discussion to the kids last night and Marty and Holly
used the example of The Bug, the Boy and the Bear books as things which are
without plot or purpose, except the art's kind of cute and they're easy.

In the absence of "first grade reading" and "second grade reading" and such,
where kids get good grades for doing phonics sheets and reciting chapters 27
kids read before them, reading is real-world reading, rather than school
reading.

Holly read me all her Harry Potter cards the other day, while I was stuck on
the couch. She missed some words, but she was fluent and reading phrases,
not just individual words.

I can sound out Spanish or French, reading along on the page word by word. I
don't know what I read. Can I read Spanish?

It's not so simple, and I'm unwilling to go by school definitions of reading.
"starting to read" it would be more comforting for those who are worried
because a child can't read.

If we use everyday materials instead of graded readers and reading-level
books, then the definition of reading might be on a higher level because of
that.

Sandra

Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 9/14/02 11:02 AM, Valerie at valfitz@y... wrote:
>
> >> I haven't found an advantage, outside of school, of claiming a
> > child is
> >> reading when he or she is only just beginning to sound
out "Bob."
>
> The operative word in Sandra's point is "claiming" as in telling
other
> parents that "my child is reading".
>
> Joyce

So, at what point can we magically read? As far as I knew, Laurie
could "only" read Dr. Suess on a Monday. The next day she was
reading "sixth grade level" books. If grade levels of books are to
be ignored, why should there be a level of book that says "my child
is reading?" In my opinion everyone should read what they want to
read, no matter what level experts label a book, and anyone, not
just a child, "reading" Bob is reading. All children are unique and
we want them to hold onto those unique qualities. Some don't want to
read the "childish" books while others do. Isn't that what
unschooling is all about? Letting a child make the choices? To me
it's all rather comical. Unschoolers want to keep their children
away from the almighty preset learning routine of the school system.
So what do we do? We knit pick about grade levels and what is
reading and what is not reading. To me, unschooling was and is the
joy of seeing my daughter happy. I don't care if she was only
reading the word Fritos on a bag of chips. She was reading as far as
she was concerned. So, why shouldn't I back up her beliefs? What
does it matter if others think she's not really reading? As far as I
know, there is no one authority that determines what is and what is
not reading. All just my opinion of course.

love, Valerie

Valerie

>
> Part of my resistence to calling that reading is those parents who
are
> somewhat desperate for their children to pass milestones, and so
they say
> "He's reading" but they can't leave him a note that says "I went
to the store
> and will be back at 9:00."
>
> Sandra

I agree to the resistance about desperation over passing milestones.
We are unschoolers. We don't have school years where certain things
must be accomplished. All of life is a journey and there's no need
for desperation or fear. Just go with the flow and enjoy the ride.

love, Valerie

[email protected]

On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:14:24 -0300 se <aq389@...> writes:
> I agree with your Daron but instead of buying the books that i don't
really
> care for, we get them from the library:) That way when the craze for
the
> particular book is over I don't have to be stuck with it on my
> shelf.

I can't figure out how we ended up with so many books, because we do
check a lot out at the library! I try to only buy ones we want forever
and ever... ::sigh:::

> I
> read a lot of Danielle Steele while I was in university more than 20
> years ago.

Well, I knew *someone* had to be reading her :-)

Hey, I had the pleasure of meeting your oldest son yesterday - he seemed
to be enjoying life on the farm, although they were all looking forward
to going into town tomorrow, too...

Dar