Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Frustrations
debi watson
>> He has now experienced the frustration ofhammering into really dense wood.
Hmmmmm .... sort how I feel after trying to implement unschooling!! I thought I had settled the whole unschooling thing, and dh was a "go" for it, but today the questions started again. "Sooooo..... when are you going to start up with the kids? I mean, you had a really good summer, but shouldn't you guys get back to the books?" I point to where the kids are sprawled on the floor, coloring huge maps of the world and putting stickers on them with pictures of famous landmarks ( the kids found the maps as part of a kit in a Winners store). "Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to them about maps and how they were invented, or about the politics of why countries have borders, or how countries are named? I mean, I understand doing things that the kids want to do, but shouldn't you be making the connections between things for them? Isn't that part of why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all around without ever learning to see the big picture and how everything fits together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do those things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, or am I still missing something here? I've been reading some Paulo Freire, an educator in Brazil who decries schools as they operate by what he calls the "banking theory" -- kid opens head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the students talk about what they know, and then gives them the proper terminology or whatever else they are lacking for a full understanding. But they don't really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing -- they just sort of do it. They'll invite me to join in, but gently discourage my attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist? What has your experience been? Debi
Mary
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debi watson
Rats! My message got cut off! But it is fully in the archives. Part two so you don't have to look it up:
Isn't that part of why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all around without ever learning to see the big picture and how everything fits together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do those things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, or am I still missing something here? I've been reading some Paulo Freire, an educator in Brazil who decries schools as they operate by what he calls the "banking theory" -- kid opens head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the students talk about what they know, and then gives them the proper terminology or whatever else they are lacking for a full understanding. But they don't really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing -- they just sort of do it. They'll invite me to join in, but gently discourage my attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist? What has your experience been? Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Isn't that part of why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all around without ever learning to see the big picture and how everything fits together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do those things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, or am I still missing something here? I've been reading some Paulo Freire, an educator in Brazil who decries schools as they operate by what he calls the "banking theory" -- kid opens head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the students talk about what they know, and then gives them the proper terminology or whatever else they are lacking for a full understanding. But they don't really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing -- they just sort of do it. They'll invite me to join in, but gently discourage my attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist? What has your experience been? Debi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:22:18 -0700 <maryfhickman@...> writes:
Five to six was Rain's most melt-downy year, and she drew, wrote, and
yelled all sorts of violent things. For a while we babysat a friend's 9
month old, and she once was frustrated with the baby because she wanted
my attention and drew a picture of her being tied to a stake over a fire
while being shot with arrows. I seriously considered therapy for her...
one thing thathelped was knowing two other intense little girls about her
age doing similar things, one of whom was the daughter of the woman I
still think is the best mother I've ever met. It was hard, though, to be
steady in the midst of those strong feelings. She had a fight with a
friend one day and after the friend went home she told me all about how
she hoped the friend got hit by a car on the way home and died.
I tried to listen and respond to the feelings, more than the words. This
all seemed to be better than her kicking and biting me (and she never
phjysically assaulted anyone else, just me).
And now at 9 she seems to thrive on pressure, she rarely melts down at
all and when she does it's generally related to fatigue and not hunger,
like it was when she was 5 (and it took me way too long to figure ouit
that just setting food near her worked much better than verbally offering
it).
She also told me a month or so ago, when I was hammering something, that
I could use a comb to hold the nail steady to start hammering - just
stick it in between the teeth.
Dar
> I asked him once I had secured the tool, whatwith the
> his solution was for the bending nail problem. He screamed kill you
> hammer. I said I would be all gone and would miss being with him. Hehim.
> crumbled into a teary heap and then asked if I would start the nail for
Five to six was Rain's most melt-downy year, and she drew, wrote, and
yelled all sorts of violent things. For a while we babysat a friend's 9
month old, and she once was frustrated with the baby because she wanted
my attention and drew a picture of her being tied to a stake over a fire
while being shot with arrows. I seriously considered therapy for her...
one thing thathelped was knowing two other intense little girls about her
age doing similar things, one of whom was the daughter of the woman I
still think is the best mother I've ever met. It was hard, though, to be
steady in the midst of those strong feelings. She had a fight with a
friend one day and after the friend went home she told me all about how
she hoped the friend got hit by a car on the way home and died.
I tried to listen and respond to the feelings, more than the words. This
all seemed to be better than her kicking and biting me (and she never
phjysically assaulted anyone else, just me).
And now at 9 she seems to thrive on pressure, she rarely melts down at
all and when she does it's generally related to fatigue and not hunger,
like it was when she was 5 (and it took me way too long to figure ouit
that just setting food near her worked much better than verbally offering
it).
She also told me a month or so ago, when I was hammering something, that
I could use a comb to hold the nail steady to start hammering - just
stick it in between the teeth.
Dar
kayb85
"Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to them about maps and how they
were invented, or about the politics of why countries have borders,
or how
countries are named? I mean, I understand doing things that the kids
want to
do, but shouldn't you be making the connections between things for
them? Isn't
that part of why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid
of
jumping all around without ever learning to see the big picture and
how
everything fits together?"
If you start lecturing kids about all kinds of things everytime they
show an interest in something, they will be afraid to show an
interest in much of anything.
Nobody can know everything about everything! Your kids need to see
the big picture from their perspective, with their specific interests
and abilities taken into account. At some point they might need to
know why maps were made or how countries were named in order to
complete the big picture in their mind. At that point, they will
take all their previously accumulated knowledge and add that
knowledge to their picture.
It takes a lifetime to fill in all the pieces of the big picture. If
you try to force the artist (child) to paint the picture before they
are ready or able to paint it, the masterpiece won't be quite so
lovely.
Sheila
were invented, or about the politics of why countries have borders,
or how
countries are named? I mean, I understand doing things that the kids
want to
do, but shouldn't you be making the connections between things for
them? Isn't
that part of why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid
of
jumping all around without ever learning to see the big picture and
how
everything fits together?"
If you start lecturing kids about all kinds of things everytime they
show an interest in something, they will be afraid to show an
interest in much of anything.
Nobody can know everything about everything! Your kids need to see
the big picture from their perspective, with their specific interests
and abilities taken into account. At some point they might need to
know why maps were made or how countries were named in order to
complete the big picture in their mind. At that point, they will
take all their previously accumulated knowledge and add that
knowledge to their picture.
It takes a lifetime to fill in all the pieces of the big picture. If
you try to force the artist (child) to paint the picture before they
are ready or able to paint it, the masterpiece won't be quite so
lovely.
Sheila
Betsy
**
If you start lecturing kids about all kinds of things everytime they
show an interest in something, they will be afraid to show an
interest in much of anything.**
This "lecture" question is crossing in my mind with the Kama Sutra
thread.
I think next time your dh wants to have sex you should give him a
lecture about the details of human physiology instead. See if he thinks
that improves the experience. <eg>
Sometimes a crayon is just a crayon. (TM Sigmund Freud)
Betsy
If you start lecturing kids about all kinds of things everytime they
show an interest in something, they will be afraid to show an
interest in much of anything.**
This "lecture" question is crossing in my mind with the Kama Sutra
thread.
I think next time your dh wants to have sex you should give him a
lecture about the details of human physiology instead. See if he thinks
that improves the experience. <eg>
Sometimes a crayon is just a crayon. (TM Sigmund Freud)
Betsy
Karin
Debi - I've been unschooling for about a year now. I have 2 boys (9 & 11)
who I homeschooled for 5 years previously. Sometimes I wonder if we're still
in the deschooling mode, too. I found myself nodding in agreement to so many
things in your post. All except for the part of my dh getting on my back
about "teaching" them. Thankfully, he doesn't do that to me and lets
unschooling happen naturally. I'm so lucky he "gets" unschooling. Instead, I
hear conversations stressing the importance of making the kids "do" work
over and over from the homeschool support group that we meet with weekly.
Most if not all of the moms are into academics - in varying degrees. Some
are strict pre-packaged curriculum users and others construct their own
curriculum.
While they do accept me as an unschooler, they ask me questions that I know
must concern them about how I'm educating my boys. Today they asked me "so
what do you guys DO all day if you don't do schoolwork?". I was honest and
couldn't think of a better answer and told them that the kids spend a lot of
time on the computer and how I don't mind that at all because I see them
being challenged by these computer games all the time. They asked me "and
they can watch TV whenever they want?" and I said yes they can, but they've
really self-regulated themselves and don't spend more than a couple hours a
day watching TV - most days less. Well, I could tell I just wasn't
convincing them that this was the best way to go. I could almost hear their
self-righteous mutterings to themselves like "those poor boys won't amount
to anything because Karin isn't giving them a proper education!" Okay, they
didn't say that but I could just tell they were thinking it. ;-)
it, but today the questions started again. "Sooooo..... when are you going
to start up with the kids? I >mean, you had a really good summer, but
shouldn't you guys get back to the books?" I point to where the kids are
sprawled >on the floor, coloring huge maps of the world and putting stickers
on them with pictures of famous landmarks ( the kids >found the maps as
part of a kit in a Winners store). "Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to
them about maps and how they >were invented, or about the politics of why
countries have borders, or how countries are named?
why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all
around without ever learning to >see the big picture and how everything fits
together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do
those >things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind
of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, >or am I
still missing something here? >>
My kids do this too. In fact, whenever I start to doubt unschooling and
think I should be "making" them do something, I remember back to our 5 years
of attempting to do school-at-home, which were plainly miserable. Both of my
boys balk at my mere suggestion of doing ANYTHING resembling learning. They
have gotten way past the "listening politely" stage and tune out
immediately. I then remember how FAKE it feels to be *teaching* kids this
way. I mean, they don't want me tell them about how maps were invented or
why countries have borders unless they ask me why. And if I'd tell them
without them asking, they would look at me like "I don't care about that!"
and I know it'd just go in one ear and out the other. So, I still don't know
if they're deschooling (from school-at-home) or if it will just be like this
from now on!
head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the >students talk
about what they >know, and then gives them the proper terminology or
whatever else they are lacking for a full >understanding. But they don't
attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist?
What >has your experience been? >Debi >>
I've heard so much talk about early learning windows that will forever be
missed if kids aren't properly "taught" during those times and also stuff
like how it's so important to give kids challenges (like forced
memorization) to help develop and fire neurons in the brain, to increase
knowledge capacity and such. I know several moms who make their kids
memorize poems every week or even every day! One of my good friends is
teaching her 8 yo Latin! All I know that if I made my boys do such things, I
would never hear the end of their complaints. My boys like me to join in
with their activities, too, only to a certain point. If I stop being "mom"
and start being "teacher", I'm outta there. I've been feeling frustrated
too, at times, but I'm being to think this is how unschooling looks in our
family.
Karin
who I homeschooled for 5 years previously. Sometimes I wonder if we're still
in the deschooling mode, too. I found myself nodding in agreement to so many
things in your post. All except for the part of my dh getting on my back
about "teaching" them. Thankfully, he doesn't do that to me and lets
unschooling happen naturally. I'm so lucky he "gets" unschooling. Instead, I
hear conversations stressing the importance of making the kids "do" work
over and over from the homeschool support group that we meet with weekly.
Most if not all of the moms are into academics - in varying degrees. Some
are strict pre-packaged curriculum users and others construct their own
curriculum.
While they do accept me as an unschooler, they ask me questions that I know
must concern them about how I'm educating my boys. Today they asked me "so
what do you guys DO all day if you don't do schoolwork?". I was honest and
couldn't think of a better answer and told them that the kids spend a lot of
time on the computer and how I don't mind that at all because I see them
being challenged by these computer games all the time. They asked me "and
they can watch TV whenever they want?" and I said yes they can, but they've
really self-regulated themselves and don't spend more than a couple hours a
day watching TV - most days less. Well, I could tell I just wasn't
convincing them that this was the best way to go. I could almost hear their
self-righteous mutterings to themselves like "those poor boys won't amount
to anything because Karin isn't giving them a proper education!" Okay, they
didn't say that but I could just tell they were thinking it. ;-)
>Hmmmmm .... sort how I feel after trying to implement unschooling!! Ithought I had settled the whole unschooling thing, and >dh was a "go" for
it, but today the questions started again. "Sooooo..... when are you going
to start up with the kids? I >mean, you had a really good summer, but
shouldn't you guys get back to the books?" I point to where the kids are
sprawled >on the floor, coloring huge maps of the world and putting stickers
on them with pictures of famous landmarks ( the kids >found the maps as
part of a kit in a Winners store). "Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to
them about maps and how they >were invented, or about the politics of why
countries have borders, or how countries are named?
>I mean, I understand doing things that the kids want to do, but shouldn'tyou be making the connections between things for >them? Isn't that part of
why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all
around without ever learning to >see the big picture and how everything fits
together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do
those >things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind
of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, >or am I
still missing something here? >>
My kids do this too. In fact, whenever I start to doubt unschooling and
think I should be "making" them do something, I remember back to our 5 years
of attempting to do school-at-home, which were plainly miserable. Both of my
boys balk at my mere suggestion of doing ANYTHING resembling learning. They
have gotten way past the "listening politely" stage and tune out
immediately. I then remember how FAKE it feels to be *teaching* kids this
way. I mean, they don't want me tell them about how maps were invented or
why countries have borders unless they ask me why. And if I'd tell them
without them asking, they would look at me like "I don't care about that!"
and I know it'd just go in one ear and out the other. So, I still don't know
if they're deschooling (from school-at-home) or if it will just be like this
from now on!
> I've been reading some Paulo Freire, an educator in Brazil who decriesschools as they >operate by what he calls the >"banking theory" -- kid opens
head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the >students talk
about what they >know, and then gives them the proper terminology or
whatever else they are lacking for a full >understanding. But they don't
>really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing -- they justsort of do it. They'll >invite me to join in, but gently >discourage my
attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist?
What >has your experience been? >Debi >>
I've heard so much talk about early learning windows that will forever be
missed if kids aren't properly "taught" during those times and also stuff
like how it's so important to give kids challenges (like forced
memorization) to help develop and fire neurons in the brain, to increase
knowledge capacity and such. I know several moms who make their kids
memorize poems every week or even every day! One of my good friends is
teaching her 8 yo Latin! All I know that if I made my boys do such things, I
would never hear the end of their complaints. My boys like me to join in
with their activities, too, only to a certain point. If I stop being "mom"
and start being "teacher", I'm outta there. I've been feeling frustrated
too, at times, but I'm being to think this is how unschooling looks in our
family.
Karin
zenmomma *
>>I've been feeling frustrated too, at times, but I'm being to think this isOr, this is how it looks in your family *right now*. Kids change,
>>how unschooling looks in our family.>>
circumstances change, interests change.
Life is a journey. Our unschooling life is just the path we've taken, it's
not the destination. Our kids will continue on this path their whole lives.
There's no reason for them to know everything in the whole wide world right
now. It's not even possible. Knowing what is is to really be alive, to ask
questions and question the answers...that's the path we're on.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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Kelli Traaseth
I also go through all of these things. And it seems like when ever I do my dh can sense it and that's when he questions it.
One big thing that he and his family wonder about that I'll put to all you knowledgable unschoolers is: If I let my children self direct their learning won't they miss out on different experiences. For example, my dh said, they wouldn't have learned cello and violin if you wouldn't have suggested it. Or another example would be, if we were traveling somewhere and the kids didn't want to see a cathedral and would rather go play in an arcade they would miss out on a historical cathedral. These are the questions I get alot of.
I think that me being who I am and the way my kids are we will find wonder where ever we go. I'm not worried at all, but what can I tell the questioners?
Kelli
Karin wrote:Debi - I've been unschooling for about a year now. I have 2 boys (9 & 11)
who I homeschooled for 5 years previously. Sometimes I wonder if we're still
in the deschooling mode, too. I found myself nodding in agreement to so many
things in your post. All except for the part of my dh getting on my back
about "teaching" them. Thankfully, he doesn't do that to me and lets
unschooling happen naturally. I'm so lucky he "gets" unschooling. Instead, I
hear conversations stressing the importance of making the kids "do" work
over and over from the homeschool support group that we meet with weekly.
Most if not all of the moms are into academics - in varying degrees. Some
are strict pre-packaged curriculum users and others construct their own
curriculum.
While they do accept me as an unschooler, they ask me questions that I know
must concern them about how I'm educating my boys. Today they asked me "so
what do you guys DO all day if you don't do schoolwork?". I was honest and
couldn't think of a better answer and told them that the kids spend a lot of
time on the computer and how I don't mind that at all because I see them
being challenged by these computer games all the time. They asked me "and
they can watch TV whenever they want?" and I said yes they can, but they've
really self-regulated themselves and don't spend more than a couple hours a
day watching TV - most days less. Well, I could tell I just wasn't
convincing them that this was the best way to go. I could almost hear their
self-righteous mutterings to themselves like "those poor boys won't amount
to anything because Karin isn't giving them a proper education!" Okay, they
didn't say that but I could just tell they were thinking it. ;-)
it, but today the questions started again. "Sooooo..... when are you going
to start up with the kids? I >mean, you had a really good summer, but
shouldn't you guys get back to the books?" I point to where the kids are
sprawled >on the floor, coloring huge maps of the world and putting stickers
on them with pictures of famous landmarks ( the kids >found the maps as
part of a kit in a Winners store). "Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to
them about maps and how they >were invented, or about the politics of why
countries have borders, or how countries are named?
why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all
around without ever learning to >see the big picture and how everything fits
together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do
those >things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind
of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, >or am I
still missing something here? >>
My kids do this too. In fact, whenever I start to doubt unschooling and
think I should be "making" them do something, I remember back to our 5 years
of attempting to do school-at-home, which were plainly miserable. Both of my
boys balk at my mere suggestion of doing ANYTHING resembling learning. They
have gotten way past the "listening politely" stage and tune out
immediately. I then remember how FAKE it feels to be *teaching* kids this
way. I mean, they don't want me tell them about how maps were invented or
why countries have borders unless they ask me why. And if I'd tell them
without them asking, they would look at me like "I don't care about that!"
and I know it'd just go in one ear and out the other. So, I still don't know
if they're deschooling (from school-at-home) or if it will just be like this
from now on!
head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the >students talk
about what they >know, and then gives them the proper terminology or
whatever else they are lacking for a full >understanding. But they don't
attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist?
What >has your experience been? >Debi >>
I've heard so much talk about early learning windows that will forever be
missed if kids aren't properly "taught" during those times and also stuff
like how it's so important to give kids challenges (like forced
memorization) to help develop and fire neurons in the brain, to increase
knowledge capacity and such. I know several moms who make their kids
memorize poems every week or even every day! One of my good friends is
teaching her 8 yo Latin! All I know that if I made my boys do such things, I
would never hear the end of their complaints. My boys like me to join in
with their activities, too, only to a certain point. If I stop being "mom"
and start being "teacher", I'm outta there. I've been feeling frustrated
too, at times, but I'm being to think this is how unschooling looks in our
family.
Karin
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One big thing that he and his family wonder about that I'll put to all you knowledgable unschoolers is: If I let my children self direct their learning won't they miss out on different experiences. For example, my dh said, they wouldn't have learned cello and violin if you wouldn't have suggested it. Or another example would be, if we were traveling somewhere and the kids didn't want to see a cathedral and would rather go play in an arcade they would miss out on a historical cathedral. These are the questions I get alot of.
I think that me being who I am and the way my kids are we will find wonder where ever we go. I'm not worried at all, but what can I tell the questioners?
Kelli
Karin wrote:Debi - I've been unschooling for about a year now. I have 2 boys (9 & 11)
who I homeschooled for 5 years previously. Sometimes I wonder if we're still
in the deschooling mode, too. I found myself nodding in agreement to so many
things in your post. All except for the part of my dh getting on my back
about "teaching" them. Thankfully, he doesn't do that to me and lets
unschooling happen naturally. I'm so lucky he "gets" unschooling. Instead, I
hear conversations stressing the importance of making the kids "do" work
over and over from the homeschool support group that we meet with weekly.
Most if not all of the moms are into academics - in varying degrees. Some
are strict pre-packaged curriculum users and others construct their own
curriculum.
While they do accept me as an unschooler, they ask me questions that I know
must concern them about how I'm educating my boys. Today they asked me "so
what do you guys DO all day if you don't do schoolwork?". I was honest and
couldn't think of a better answer and told them that the kids spend a lot of
time on the computer and how I don't mind that at all because I see them
being challenged by these computer games all the time. They asked me "and
they can watch TV whenever they want?" and I said yes they can, but they've
really self-regulated themselves and don't spend more than a couple hours a
day watching TV - most days less. Well, I could tell I just wasn't
convincing them that this was the best way to go. I could almost hear their
self-righteous mutterings to themselves like "those poor boys won't amount
to anything because Karin isn't giving them a proper education!" Okay, they
didn't say that but I could just tell they were thinking it. ;-)
>Hmmmmm .... sort how I feel after trying to implement unschooling!! Ithought I had settled the whole unschooling thing, and >dh was a "go" for
it, but today the questions started again. "Sooooo..... when are you going
to start up with the kids? I >mean, you had a really good summer, but
shouldn't you guys get back to the books?" I point to where the kids are
sprawled >on the floor, coloring huge maps of the world and putting stickers
on them with pictures of famous landmarks ( the kids >found the maps as
part of a kit in a Winners store). "Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to
them about maps and how they >were invented, or about the politics of why
countries have borders, or how countries are named?
>I mean, I understand doing things that the kids want to do, but shouldn'tyou be making the connections between things for >them? Isn't that part of
why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all
around without ever learning to >see the big picture and how everything fits
together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do
those >things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind
of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, >or am I
still missing something here? >>
My kids do this too. In fact, whenever I start to doubt unschooling and
think I should be "making" them do something, I remember back to our 5 years
of attempting to do school-at-home, which were plainly miserable. Both of my
boys balk at my mere suggestion of doing ANYTHING resembling learning. They
have gotten way past the "listening politely" stage and tune out
immediately. I then remember how FAKE it feels to be *teaching* kids this
way. I mean, they don't want me tell them about how maps were invented or
why countries have borders unless they ask me why. And if I'd tell them
without them asking, they would look at me like "I don't care about that!"
and I know it'd just go in one ear and out the other. So, I still don't know
if they're deschooling (from school-at-home) or if it will just be like this
from now on!
> I've been reading some Paulo Freire, an educator in Brazil who decriesschools as they >operate by what he calls the >"banking theory" -- kid opens
head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the >students talk
about what they >know, and then gives them the proper terminology or
whatever else they are lacking for a full >understanding. But they don't
>really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing -- they justsort of do it. They'll >invite me to join in, but gently >discourage my
attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist?
What >has your experience been? >Debi >>
I've heard so much talk about early learning windows that will forever be
missed if kids aren't properly "taught" during those times and also stuff
like how it's so important to give kids challenges (like forced
memorization) to help develop and fire neurons in the brain, to increase
knowledge capacity and such. I know several moms who make their kids
memorize poems every week or even every day! One of my good friends is
teaching her 8 yo Latin! All I know that if I made my boys do such things, I
would never hear the end of their complaints. My boys like me to join in
with their activities, too, only to a certain point. If I stop being "mom"
and start being "teacher", I'm outta there. I've been feeling frustrated
too, at times, but I'm being to think this is how unschooling looks in our
family.
Karin
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Mary Bianco
>From: <maryfhickman@...>He has now experienced the frustration of
>hammering into really dense wood.I know exactly how he feels. I have an ex husband!!!
Mary B
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Karin
> >>I've been feeling frustrated too, at times, but I'm being to think thisis
> >>how unschooling looks in our family.>>lives.
>
> Or, this is how it looks in your family *right now*. Kids change,
> circumstances change, interests change.
>
> Life is a journey. Our unschooling life is just the path we've taken, it's
> not the destination. Our kids will continue on this path their whole
> There's no reason for them to know everything in the whole wide worldright
> now. It's not even possible. Knowing what is is to really be alive, to askOf course, you're right Mary. That's why we're still unschooling. I know
> questions and question the answers...that's the path we're on.
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
it's the right path for *us* and I just need to put my blinders on when it
comes to what *others* say.
Karin
April
What bothers me about that line of questioning is if they learned cello and violin won't they miss out on playing the flute or trumpet. If they play in the orchestra, won't they be missing out on acting in the musical. If they see the cathedral they might miss the art museum. If they go to Europe they might miss S. America. Life is full of choices and we can't do them all. It's a small percentage of kids that are in the school orchestra, or on the foot ball team or whatever experience they're supposed to be missing. My kids are experiencing things that most kids in school or even kids who are 'schooled-at-home' don't have time for. Such is life.
~April
Homeschooling Mom to: Kate-16, Lisa-13, Karl-11, and Ben-7
Facilitator to REACH-Auburn Hills, an inclusive Homeschool Group in Auburn Hills, MI
~April
Homeschooling Mom to: Kate-16, Lisa-13, Karl-11, and Ben-7
Facilitator to REACH-Auburn Hills, an inclusive Homeschool Group in Auburn Hills, MI
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelli Traaseth
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Frustrations
I also go through all of these things. And it seems like when ever I do my dh can sense it and that's when he questions it.
One big thing that he and his family wonder about that I'll put to all you knowledgable unschoolers is: If I let my children self direct their learning won't they miss out on different experiences. For example, my dh said, they wouldn't have learned cello and violin if you wouldn't have suggested it. Or another example would be, if we were traveling somewhere and the kids didn't want to see a cathedral and would rather go play in an arcade they would miss out on a historical cathedral. These are the questions I get alot of.
I think that me being who I am and the way my kids are we will find wonder where ever we go. I'm not worried at all, but what can I tell the questioners?
Kelli
Karin wrote:Debi - I've been unschooling for about a year now. I have 2 boys (9 & 11)
who I homeschooled for 5 years previously. Sometimes I wonder if we're still
in the deschooling mode, too. I found myself nodding in agreement to so many
things in your post. All except for the part of my dh getting on my back
about "teaching" them. Thankfully, he doesn't do that to me and lets
unschooling happen naturally. I'm so lucky he "gets" unschooling. Instead, I
hear conversations stressing the importance of making the kids "do" work
over and over from the homeschool support group that we meet with weekly.
Most if not all of the moms are into academics - in varying degrees. Some
are strict pre-packaged curriculum users and others construct their own
curriculum.
While they do accept me as an unschooler, they ask me questions that I know
must concern them about how I'm educating my boys. Today they asked me "so
what do you guys DO all day if you don't do schoolwork?". I was honest and
couldn't think of a better answer and told them that the kids spend a lot of
time on the computer and how I don't mind that at all because I see them
being challenged by these computer games all the time. They asked me "and
they can watch TV whenever they want?" and I said yes they can, but they've
really self-regulated themselves and don't spend more than a couple hours a
day watching TV - most days less. Well, I could tell I just wasn't
convincing them that this was the best way to go. I could almost hear their
self-righteous mutterings to themselves like "those poor boys won't amount
to anything because Karin isn't giving them a proper education!" Okay, they
didn't say that but I could just tell they were thinking it. ;-)
>Hmmmmm .... sort how I feel after trying to implement unschooling!! I
thought I had settled the whole unschooling thing, and >dh was a "go" for
it, but today the questions started again. "Sooooo..... when are you going
to start up with the kids? I >mean, you had a really good summer, but
shouldn't you guys get back to the books?" I point to where the kids are
sprawled >on the floor, coloring huge maps of the world and putting stickers
on them with pictures of famous landmarks ( the kids >found the maps as
part of a kit in a Winners store). "Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to
them about maps and how they >were invented, or about the politics of why
countries have borders, or how countries are named?
>I mean, I understand doing things that the kids want to do, but shouldn't
you be making the connections between things for >them? Isn't that part of
why you are homeschooling in the first place, to get rid of jumping all
around without ever learning to >see the big picture and how everything fits
together?" And in my heart, I felt he was right. But when I start to do
those >things, the kids listen politely for a bit, and then they just kind
of tune out after a while. Are they still de-school-at-home-ing, >or am I
still missing something here? >>
My kids do this too. In fact, whenever I start to doubt unschooling and
think I should be "making" them do something, I remember back to our 5 years
of attempting to do school-at-home, which were plainly miserable. Both of my
boys balk at my mere suggestion of doing ANYTHING resembling learning. They
have gotten way past the "listening politely" stage and tune out
immediately. I then remember how FAKE it feels to be *teaching* kids this
way. I mean, they don't want me tell them about how maps were invented or
why countries have borders unless they ask me why. And if I'd tell them
without them asking, they would look at me like "I don't care about that!"
and I know it'd just go in one ear and out the other. So, I still don't know
if they're deschooling (from school-at-home) or if it will just be like this
from now on!
> I've been reading some Paulo Freire, an educator in Brazil who decries
schools as they >operate by what he calls the >"banking theory" -- kid opens
head and teacher pours in knowledge. He prefers to let the >students talk
about what they >know, and then gives them the proper terminology or
whatever else they are lacking for a full >understanding. But they don't
>really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing -- they just
sort of do it. They'll >invite me to join in, but gently >discourage my
attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do I persist?
What >has your experience been? >Debi >>
I've heard so much talk about early learning windows that will forever be
missed if kids aren't properly "taught" during those times and also stuff
like how it's so important to give kids challenges (like forced
memorization) to help develop and fire neurons in the brain, to increase
knowledge capacity and such. I know several moms who make their kids
memorize poems every week or even every day! One of my good friends is
teaching her 8 yo Latin! All I know that if I made my boys do such things, I
would never hear the end of their complaints. My boys like me to join in
with their activities, too, only to a certain point. If I stop being "mom"
and start being "teacher", I'm outta there. I've been feeling frustrated
too, at times, but I'm being to think this is how unschooling looks in our
family.
Karin
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---------------------------------
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9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: debi watson <debiwatson@...><<"Yes, but shouldn't you be talking to them about maps and how they were
invented, or about the politics of why countries have borders, or how
countries are named?
But they don't really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing --
they just sort of do it. They'll invite me to join in, but gently
discourage my attempts to help them name things. Will they ever ask? Or do
I persist? What has your experience been? Debi>>
My response to every kind of question like this from adults about my kids
learning is WHY?? Then I listen and see what kind of answers I get. I never
get any to encourage me to do anything other than unschooling.
As far as the rest, sounds like the children are doing just fine. I
personally would not persist. They might very well start asking you things
and you can go from there and they might very well just find out on their
own, which would be fine too, wouldn't it??
Mary B
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MO Milligans
At 09:37 AM 9/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
This is what our kids do as well. They "just do it" <g> as the slogan goes.
If they ask anything, it's generally about "where is the tape, where is the
stapler, Glue, A pen?" Then I find them actually *wanting* to use the
calculator during the grocery shopping, or playing with the calculator on
the way to/from the store. Or they'll say something like, "I though 2 times
12 was 24, and the calculator agrees".<smile> You know, stuff like that. I
used to worry more about their "education", then I learned (kind of slowly)
to just relax and take deep breaths. After all, it is *their* educations,
and if they're able to function now, there's no reason to believe they
won't learn how to function later -- if they feel a *need* to learn
whatever. That's how I think about it anyway :) Your mileage may vary
(YMMV). <g>
Todd
Our HOME page
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>But they don't really ever ask me any questions about what they are doing==
>-- they just sort of do it.
This is what our kids do as well. They "just do it" <g> as the slogan goes.
If they ask anything, it's generally about "where is the tape, where is the
stapler, Glue, A pen?" Then I find them actually *wanting* to use the
calculator during the grocery shopping, or playing with the calculator on
the way to/from the store. Or they'll say something like, "I though 2 times
12 was 24, and the calculator agrees".<smile> You know, stuff like that. I
used to worry more about their "education", then I learned (kind of slowly)
to just relax and take deep breaths. After all, it is *their* educations,
and if they're able to function now, there's no reason to believe they
won't learn how to function later -- if they feel a *need* to learn
whatever. That's how I think about it anyway :) Your mileage may vary
(YMMV). <g>
Todd
Our HOME page
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
MO Milligans
At 09:56 AM 9/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
The entire message came through to us. But thanks for reiterating :-)
Todd
Our HOME page
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>Rats! My message got cut off! But it is fully in the archives. Part two==
>so you don't have to look it up:
The entire message came through to us. But thanks for reiterating :-)
Todd
Our HOME page
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Betsy
**One of my good friends is teaching her 8 yo Latin!**
Latin is making quite a comeback. My best friend took it in high
school, but at the time it was very unpopular and out of favor.
My personal theory is that the reason Latin is now popular is that we
have a whole generation that mostly didn't study it. Therefore Latin
was not ruined for them and they are willing to try it for their kids.
IF Latin hadn't died out in the schools, most everyone would still hate
it. That's my theory and I'm standing by it.
Betsy
PS I found a used copy of Latin for Every Occasion (?) cheap, and if I
ever find the right page again I'm going to put the Latin for "I'm
rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you"
in my sigline during the next flame war. Won't that class up the list? <eg>
Latin is making quite a comeback. My best friend took it in high
school, but at the time it was very unpopular and out of favor.
My personal theory is that the reason Latin is now popular is that we
have a whole generation that mostly didn't study it. Therefore Latin
was not ruined for them and they are willing to try it for their kids.
IF Latin hadn't died out in the schools, most everyone would still hate
it. That's my theory and I'm standing by it.
Betsy
PS I found a used copy of Latin for Every Occasion (?) cheap, and if I
ever find the right page again I'm going to put the Latin for "I'm
rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you"
in my sigline during the next flame war. Won't that class up the list? <eg>
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/11/02 8:08:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
look up *Nanny Nanny Boo Boo Stick your head in Doo Doo* for me? <vveg>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
> BetsyOh I think that is a great idea Betsy! Will you do the grunt work for me and
>
> PS I found a used copy of Latin for Every Occasion (?) cheap, and if I
> ever find the right page again I'm going to put the Latin for "I'm
> rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you"
> in my sigline during the next flame war. Won't that class up the list? <eg>
>
look up *Nanny Nanny Boo Boo Stick your head in Doo Doo* for me? <vveg>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane
I took Latin in HS and now say "This Little Piggy" to my kids in English
and Latin.
Hic parvus porcus venit in forum
Hic parvus porcus remansit domi
Hic parvus porcus habuit carnes bovinas assas
Hic parvus porcus non habuit
Hic parvus porcus cried oui, oui, oui all the way home.
(They had messed up the last line in the Latin book, so I don't know it.)
:-) Diane
I typed it from memory and spell check doesn't work in Latin, so if it's
imperfect that's why.
and Latin.
Hic parvus porcus venit in forum
Hic parvus porcus remansit domi
Hic parvus porcus habuit carnes bovinas assas
Hic parvus porcus non habuit
Hic parvus porcus cried oui, oui, oui all the way home.
(They had messed up the last line in the Latin book, so I don't know it.)
:-) Diane
I typed it from memory and spell check doesn't work in Latin, so if it's
imperfect that's why.
>**One of my good friends is teaching her 8 yo Latin!**
>
>Latin is making quite a comeback. My best friend took it in high
>school, but at the time it was very unpopular and out of favor.
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/11/02 3:40:14 PM, kellitraas@... writes:
<< These are the questions I get alot of.
I think that me being who I am and the way my kids are we will find wonder
where ever we go. I'm not worried at all, but what can I tell the
questioners? >>
Tell them to put their predictions of doom into an envelope, date it ten
years away, seal it, and give it to you to keep. On the date you'll open it
and if they're right you'll give them $25 but ONLY if they shut up about it
until then.
Sandra
<< These are the questions I get alot of.
I think that me being who I am and the way my kids are we will find wonder
where ever we go. I'm not worried at all, but what can I tell the
questioners? >>
Tell them to put their predictions of doom into an envelope, date it ten
years away, seal it, and give it to you to keep. On the date you'll open it
and if they're right you'll give them $25 but ONLY if they shut up about it
until then.
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
Unfortunately, I am figuring out that I really do have to stop worrying about it, what everyone else thinks,(I know Shryley, I hear you), in fact, I think I'll save myself hundreds of dollars in therapy hours and just start saying 'Who gives a f____!' I know the rest of my family is finding this answer in docs offices. (Sorry to those of you who don't like that,f word, but I'm becoming jaded! I just wish everyone would come to their senses about life, I'm very sick of our society, pretty anti-establishment lately. And I love reading John Taylor Gotto and Illych's stuff. It makes so much sense and its amazing how much is linked to school!
I'm stop now....Kelli T in conservative northern Minnesota, yuck, bleck, gag
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 9/11/02 3:40:14 PM, kellitraas@... writes:
<< These are the questions I get alot of.
I think that me being who I am and the way my kids are we will find wonder
where ever we go. I'm not worried at all, but what can I tell the
questioners? >>
Tell them to put their predictions of doom into an envelope, date it ten
years away, seal it, and give it to you to keep. On the date you'll open it
and if they're right you'll give them $25 but ONLY if they shut up about it
until then.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm stop now....Kelli T in conservative northern Minnesota, yuck, bleck, gag
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 9/11/02 3:40:14 PM, kellitraas@... writes:
<< These are the questions I get alot of.
I think that me being who I am and the way my kids are we will find wonder
where ever we go. I'm not worried at all, but what can I tell the
questioners? >>
Tell them to put their predictions of doom into an envelope, date it ten
years away, seal it, and give it to you to keep. On the date you'll open it
and if they're right you'll give them $25 but ONLY if they shut up about it
until then.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa M. C. Bentley
> >But they don't really ever ask me any questions about what they are doingI agree with the other posters. I want to add that when my kids are
> >-- they just sort of do it.
doing something and *I* notice something really cool about what they are
doing, then I usually say something along the lines of, "Hey, neat! Did
you notice this really cool thing." and then I let it drop. They are
young and really like to see cool new things. DH is my age, and he too
likes to see really cool things, and so I always point things out about
what he might be doing, too. (and vice versa)
-Lisa in AZ