siblings
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/02 9:52:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< How do you all balance the needs of different kids? >>
Well, I've got four, so it's definitely a challenge at times.
Last night, after I got home from work (working creates a whole 'nother set
of dynamics and neediness) the baby was exhausted because Daddy can't nurse
him to sleep. So after he napped a bit and woke up really cranky, Trevor was
really antsy about going up to Target to buy a gameboy game that he's been
wanting.
I really wanted to take him. He's been babysitting his younger sibs some and
I really owed him anyway.
But here's this tired cranky baby that needs to be home. So we waited. I told
Trevor I would have to see...that I could not go up to the store if he was
still cranky, and I wouldn't leave him with Daddy again since he just got me
back after being gone at work. It would have upset him too much if I walked
out the door again.
So we fed Jalen, we waited some more, I nursed him again. And he started
being less cranky. Pretty soon he was getting his shoes out (heard us talking
about leaving) and was ready to go. So I got to meet everyone's needs. But it
is a balancing act.
While at the store I had to put Jared off over something he wanted because I
didn't have enough money. I promised to buy it later this week, after
payday. He was fine with that.
I think with two little ones it can be harder. They do get less needy as they
get older, or needy in different ways at least.
Do you have any way to spend time alone with each of them weekly? This is a
very important thing in our house. Time alone with one parent greatly reduces
their feelings of rivalry for attention.
Find some really cool activity for one of them and deal with the one that is
needing you at that moment.
Rice bins are a great distractor, as is water play, bubble blowing and music.
Fill up the kitchen sink with water and dishsoap and let them put some
kitchen tools in and play. Water is hugely calming to a child also.
Put on music and take turns dancing with them.
Watch a movie together.
Get out a pile of paper, crayons, pens, glitter glue and make art together.
Your doing the project with them is more calming than if you leave them on
their own doing it.
Hope some of this helps.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< How do you all balance the needs of different kids? >>
Well, I've got four, so it's definitely a challenge at times.
Last night, after I got home from work (working creates a whole 'nother set
of dynamics and neediness) the baby was exhausted because Daddy can't nurse
him to sleep. So after he napped a bit and woke up really cranky, Trevor was
really antsy about going up to Target to buy a gameboy game that he's been
wanting.
I really wanted to take him. He's been babysitting his younger sibs some and
I really owed him anyway.
But here's this tired cranky baby that needs to be home. So we waited. I told
Trevor I would have to see...that I could not go up to the store if he was
still cranky, and I wouldn't leave him with Daddy again since he just got me
back after being gone at work. It would have upset him too much if I walked
out the door again.
So we fed Jalen, we waited some more, I nursed him again. And he started
being less cranky. Pretty soon he was getting his shoes out (heard us talking
about leaving) and was ready to go. So I got to meet everyone's needs. But it
is a balancing act.
While at the store I had to put Jared off over something he wanted because I
didn't have enough money. I promised to buy it later this week, after
payday. He was fine with that.
I think with two little ones it can be harder. They do get less needy as they
get older, or needy in different ways at least.
Do you have any way to spend time alone with each of them weekly? This is a
very important thing in our house. Time alone with one parent greatly reduces
their feelings of rivalry for attention.
Find some really cool activity for one of them and deal with the one that is
needing you at that moment.
Rice bins are a great distractor, as is water play, bubble blowing and music.
Fill up the kitchen sink with water and dishsoap and let them put some
kitchen tools in and play. Water is hugely calming to a child also.
Put on music and take turns dancing with them.
Watch a movie together.
Get out a pile of paper, crayons, pens, glitter glue and make art together.
Your doing the project with them is more calming than if you leave them on
their own doing it.
Hope some of this helps.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/02 9:52:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< It seemed like it got easier for about six months
when my youngest was 2 and a half. But he's 3 and a half and it's been
really really hard for several months >>
I think three is a really hard age. It is for us anyway. Much harder than the
two's.....So it's probably going to get better again real soon.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< It seemed like it got easier for about six months
when my youngest was 2 and a half. But he's 3 and a half and it's been
really really hard for several months >>
I think three is a really hard age. It is for us anyway. Much harder than the
two's.....So it's probably going to get better again real soon.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/2002 11:14:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
and the three's were far worse.
Amy Kagey (whose dd will be 3 next month!)
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366"> </A>U<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">sborne Books Online Catalog</A>
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
>I agree also. I remember telling people that the "terrible two's" were a myth
> I think three is a really hard age. It is for us anyway. Much harder than
> the
> two's.....So it's probably going to get better again real soon.
>
and the three's were far worse.
Amy Kagey (whose dd will be 3 next month!)
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366"> </A>U<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">sborne Books Online Catalog</A>
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/2002 11:14:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> I think three is a really hard age. It is for us anyway. Much harder thanMy husband says,"Two's a myth. Three's reality."
> the
> two's.....So it's probably going to get better again real soon.
>
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: amycats2@...and the three's were far worse.>>
> > I think three is a really hard age. It is for us anyway. Much harder
>than
> > the
> > two's.....So it's probably going to get better again real soon.
>I agree also. I remember telling people that the "terrible two's" were a
>myth
With my first three kids, the "terrible two's" started at about a year and a
half and lasted for about a year and then all was smooth sailing. Now with
this last one, it seems to be the same way, sure hope 3 isn't any worse!!!
LOL!
Mary B
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Annette Naake
Mine are also 4.5 yrs apart - now 5 and 9. I agree that this is a tough age
gap because their interests are so different, and reading out loud is
especially difficult because of varying interests and attention spans.
However, mine have become very good friends -- the older guy is a
responsible older brother, the younger one prefers his company to anyone
else's, and they love to play games together (video, cards, imaginary,
chasing, etc.).
It is really hard to feel like you don't have time for what everyone needs.
That includes kids, husband and coworkers. To say nothing of oneself --
another topic altogether. I have had to make what once seemed like major
compromises. When I worked at night, I used to read stories at breakfast
because I wasn't home at bedtime. Today, by the time work and dinner were
over, it was dark, but the guys wanted to go to the park so we went, in the
dark. (It was fun -- we had it to ourselves.) Their dad is home with them
during the day, but of course since I've been gone all day, there's a
thundering race to the front door when they hear my key in the lock and then
a wrestling match to see who can hug me first (the upside of a job outside
the house!).
I don't think you should feel bad about giving one less attention if the
other needs more for the moment. It balances out over time. The reality is
that people have to satisfy their own needs sometimes and often must wait
for what they need. The family is an organic unit and parts must always
accommodate each other.
And the younger child makes up for less parental attention with all that
sibling attention. They learn a lot from their older siblings.
Our younger child has definitely gotten less of the concentrated attention
than his older sibling did. I can't say he's worse off for it. He's learned
to find things to do on his own and he's much more self-sufficient and
easy-going than our older one, who always seemed to need someone to help him
figure out how to keep busy.
Annette
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
gap because their interests are so different, and reading out loud is
especially difficult because of varying interests and attention spans.
However, mine have become very good friends -- the older guy is a
responsible older brother, the younger one prefers his company to anyone
else's, and they love to play games together (video, cards, imaginary,
chasing, etc.).
It is really hard to feel like you don't have time for what everyone needs.
That includes kids, husband and coworkers. To say nothing of oneself --
another topic altogether. I have had to make what once seemed like major
compromises. When I worked at night, I used to read stories at breakfast
because I wasn't home at bedtime. Today, by the time work and dinner were
over, it was dark, but the guys wanted to go to the park so we went, in the
dark. (It was fun -- we had it to ourselves.) Their dad is home with them
during the day, but of course since I've been gone all day, there's a
thundering race to the front door when they hear my key in the lock and then
a wrestling match to see who can hug me first (the upside of a job outside
the house!).
I don't think you should feel bad about giving one less attention if the
other needs more for the moment. It balances out over time. The reality is
that people have to satisfy their own needs sometimes and often must wait
for what they need. The family is an organic unit and parts must always
accommodate each other.
And the younger child makes up for less parental attention with all that
sibling attention. They learn a lot from their older siblings.
Our younger child has definitely gotten less of the concentrated attention
than his older sibling did. I can't say he's worse off for it. He's learned
to find things to do on his own and he's much more self-sufficient and
easy-going than our older one, who always seemed to need someone to help him
figure out how to keep busy.
Annette
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
plumaria_1
Hi Rue,
Siblings WIthout RIvalry put me in mind of another book that might be
helpful...Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. Much
of this book talks about stopping negative behavior in ways that
respect everybody...the child and the parents or other caregivers.
There are very good suggestions on changing the behavior and
reinforcing those changes, too.
The best of luck to you and your sister's family in getting this resolved.
Siblings WIthout RIvalry put me in mind of another book that might be
helpful...Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. Much
of this book talks about stopping negative behavior in ways that
respect everybody...the child and the parents or other caregivers.
There are very good suggestions on changing the behavior and
reinforcing those changes, too.
The best of luck to you and your sister's family in getting this resolved.
Jon and Rue Kream
>>The best of luck to you and your sister's family in getting this resolved.**Thank you. I will check out Raising Your Spirited Child. It sounds like
it would be helpful. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma2kids
> Siblings WIthout RIvalry put me in mind of another book that mightbe
> helpful...Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. MuchShe's got another book out called Kids, Parents and Power Struggles
> of this book talks about stopping negative behavior in ways that
> respect everybody...the child and the parents or other caregivers.
> There are very good suggestions on changing the behavior and
> reinforcing those changes, too.
>
that might help too. I hate the title but really like Mary Sheedy
Kurcinka's approach. She spends much of the book talking about how to
act and react in a way that will keep you connected to your kids. A
lot of it reminded me of AnneO's talk in SC. Lots of practical tips
too.
It might be worth a look.
Life is good.
~Mary, mother of a fabulously spirited daughter
plumaria_1
Kids, Parents and Power Struggles was actually the book I meant to
recommend...thanks, zenmomma.
Both are good, but "Power struggles" is where I distinctly remember
about finding the emotions fueling the behavior, and helping the child
choose a different response.
"Spirited Child" talks about temperment and what can trigger it as
more of a focus...if I remember right.
recommend...thanks, zenmomma.
Both are good, but "Power struggles" is where I distinctly remember
about finding the emotions fueling the behavior, and helping the child
choose a different response.
"Spirited Child" talks about temperment and what can trigger it as
more of a focus...if I remember right.
Fetteroll
on 10/12/03 2:12 PM, plumaria_1 at plumaria_1@... wrote:
Joyce
> Siblings WIthout RIvalry put me in mind of another book that might beAnd Pam Sorooshian often recommends The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene.
> helpful...Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka.
Joyce
Mary
I have a problem I've been trying to work on for quite awhile. I'm not having much luck and would love any input.
My 2 middle children are 13 months apart. They generally get along quite well with each other.
For the past few months now, Sierra (8) has been very insensitive to Joseph (9) and his feelings. She basically blows him off when she promises him she will play what he would like to play.
They will each want to play different things. Sierra will get Joseph to play what she wants, promising him she will play his game after. Then when the time comes, she changes her mind. Joseph is not a cryer and she has been bringing him to tears lately. He feels like she just doesn't care about him at all. He wonders how she can be so mean to him.
Everything I have tried and said so far has made no difference. Joseph will just stop playing with her to try and make her see what she's doing but eventually he will want to play with her enough to give in. Then she'll blow him off again.
She seems to understand when I explain to her how he's feeling, but not enough to stop doing what she does. She doesn't do this with anyone else but Joseph. In fact, when she plays with groups of kids, she's the one that never has a problem with anyone else.
I can't seem to find a solution. She seems to not care that's it's a big deal to Joseph and he's heartbroken at least once or twice a week over this.
He's not like that with her at all and she hardly ever complains about anything he does to her. She loves playing with him, but when he gets upset, she'll find someone else to play with or just play alone. We're big on not making promises here just because so I'm not sure why it's no big deal to her.
I'm totally out of ideas.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My 2 middle children are 13 months apart. They generally get along quite well with each other.
For the past few months now, Sierra (8) has been very insensitive to Joseph (9) and his feelings. She basically blows him off when she promises him she will play what he would like to play.
They will each want to play different things. Sierra will get Joseph to play what she wants, promising him she will play his game after. Then when the time comes, she changes her mind. Joseph is not a cryer and she has been bringing him to tears lately. He feels like she just doesn't care about him at all. He wonders how she can be so mean to him.
Everything I have tried and said so far has made no difference. Joseph will just stop playing with her to try and make her see what she's doing but eventually he will want to play with her enough to give in. Then she'll blow him off again.
She seems to understand when I explain to her how he's feeling, but not enough to stop doing what she does. She doesn't do this with anyone else but Joseph. In fact, when she plays with groups of kids, she's the one that never has a problem with anyone else.
I can't seem to find a solution. She seems to not care that's it's a big deal to Joseph and he's heartbroken at least once or twice a week over this.
He's not like that with her at all and she hardly ever complains about anything he does to her. She loves playing with him, but when he gets upset, she'll find someone else to play with or just play alone. We're big on not making promises here just because so I'm not sure why it's no big deal to her.
I'm totally out of ideas.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/21/04 8:01:27 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< For the past few months now, Sierra (8) has been very insensitive to
Joseph (9) and his feelings. She basically blows him off when she promises him she
will play what he would like to play. >>
Change is the only real constant, and girls tend to mature faster than boys
in those years.
Blowing him off isn't good, and I'd talk to her about that, but I'd talk to
him about her changing and maybe wanting to do different kinds of things as she
gets older.
=She doesn't do this with anyone else but Joseph. In fact, when she plays
with groups of kids, she's the one that never has a problem with anyone else. =
Can you try to do some things with both of them in the next few weeks to see
if you can feel the problem? Maybe sitting right between the two of them
you'll catch the clues that neither of them are seeing or feeling. You might be
able to feel what she might have perceived just before she got impatient.
Maybe she's just zippier and has a shorter attention span? I'm that way,
especially in the mornings. Does time of day matter? Could you ask her to do
something with him first? And maybe he's expecting half an hour and she can
only do ten minutes. Maybe if it is a matter of attention span you could warn
him.
Can you get boys over to play with him? She shouldn't really need to be his
dependable play-buddy. I know it's only a year or three before he might not
want her to play with him anyway, but as transition, if he's got a better
alternative, that will give her the space she might be needing.
Sandra
<< For the past few months now, Sierra (8) has been very insensitive to
Joseph (9) and his feelings. She basically blows him off when she promises him she
will play what he would like to play. >>
Change is the only real constant, and girls tend to mature faster than boys
in those years.
Blowing him off isn't good, and I'd talk to her about that, but I'd talk to
him about her changing and maybe wanting to do different kinds of things as she
gets older.
=She doesn't do this with anyone else but Joseph. In fact, when she plays
with groups of kids, she's the one that never has a problem with anyone else. =
Can you try to do some things with both of them in the next few weeks to see
if you can feel the problem? Maybe sitting right between the two of them
you'll catch the clues that neither of them are seeing or feeling. You might be
able to feel what she might have perceived just before she got impatient.
Maybe she's just zippier and has a shorter attention span? I'm that way,
especially in the mornings. Does time of day matter? Could you ask her to do
something with him first? And maybe he's expecting half an hour and she can
only do ten minutes. Maybe if it is a matter of attention span you could warn
him.
Can you get boys over to play with him? She shouldn't really need to be his
dependable play-buddy. I know it's only a year or three before he might not
want her to play with him anyway, but as transition, if he's got a better
alternative, that will give her the space she might be needing.
Sandra
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<Blowing him off isn't good, and I'd talk to her about that, but I'd talk
to
him about her changing and maybe wanting to do different kinds of things as
she
gets older.>>
Sandra I appreciate your outlook on this. I guess I posted maybe at the
wrong time for more advice. <bg> I have spoken with her about what she does
and how he feels because of it. I'm sure she doesn't do it on purpose. I do
think maybe she is in a change right now and he isn't.
<<Can you try to do some things with both of them in the next few weeks to
see
if you can feel the problem? Maybe sitting right between the two of them
you'll catch the clues that neither of them are seeing or feeling. You
might be
able to feel what she might have perceived just before she got impatient.>>
Yes maybe that would help. I guess feeling like I'm there while watching
through the kitchen wouldn't give me the same insight as sitting among them.
Maybe he's being a bit too strict for her play. That's very possible.
<< Maybe she's just zippier and has a shorter attention span? I'm that way,
especially in the mornings. Does time of day matter? Could you ask her to
do
something with him first? And maybe he's expecting half an hour and she
can
only do ten minutes. Maybe if it is a matter of attention span you could
warn
him.>>
The first thing here is very very true for her. She doesn't have the
attention span that Joseph has. I didn't think that maybe he's just playing
way too long and intensely for her. Very possible. Time of day doesn't
matter. He has asked for her to play with him first and that works for
awhile and then it gets switched around and she blows him off again.
<< Can you get boys over to play with him? She shouldn't really need to be
his
dependable play-buddy. I know it's only a year or three before he might
not
want her to play with him anyway, but as transition, if he's got a better
alternative, that will give her the space she might be needing.>>
That could be a problem too. Joseph doesn't have any friends that are just
his. He has a few from sports camp but it's very hard for me to get together
with them. They are school at homers and just don't have much *play* time
during the week. Weekends seem to be family time for them and us. I'll have
to work more on maybe seeing if that could happen though.
Thanks again for seeing what I haven't.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<Blowing him off isn't good, and I'd talk to her about that, but I'd talk
to
him about her changing and maybe wanting to do different kinds of things as
she
gets older.>>
Sandra I appreciate your outlook on this. I guess I posted maybe at the
wrong time for more advice. <bg> I have spoken with her about what she does
and how he feels because of it. I'm sure she doesn't do it on purpose. I do
think maybe she is in a change right now and he isn't.
<<Can you try to do some things with both of them in the next few weeks to
see
if you can feel the problem? Maybe sitting right between the two of them
you'll catch the clues that neither of them are seeing or feeling. You
might be
able to feel what she might have perceived just before she got impatient.>>
Yes maybe that would help. I guess feeling like I'm there while watching
through the kitchen wouldn't give me the same insight as sitting among them.
Maybe he's being a bit too strict for her play. That's very possible.
<< Maybe she's just zippier and has a shorter attention span? I'm that way,
especially in the mornings. Does time of day matter? Could you ask her to
do
something with him first? And maybe he's expecting half an hour and she
can
only do ten minutes. Maybe if it is a matter of attention span you could
warn
him.>>
The first thing here is very very true for her. She doesn't have the
attention span that Joseph has. I didn't think that maybe he's just playing
way too long and intensely for her. Very possible. Time of day doesn't
matter. He has asked for her to play with him first and that works for
awhile and then it gets switched around and she blows him off again.
<< Can you get boys over to play with him? She shouldn't really need to be
his
dependable play-buddy. I know it's only a year or three before he might
not
want her to play with him anyway, but as transition, if he's got a better
alternative, that will give her the space she might be needing.>>
That could be a problem too. Joseph doesn't have any friends that are just
his. He has a few from sports camp but it's very hard for me to get together
with them. They are school at homers and just don't have much *play* time
during the week. Weekends seem to be family time for them and us. I'll have
to work more on maybe seeing if that could happen though.
Thanks again for seeing what I haven't.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/2004 10:30:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
Of course, I think it needs to be considered in families formed only by
birth as well. Anytime you are adding to the mix, you will be getting
positive and negative energies added and you don't always know which way the
balance will go.<<<<
Right. I should have been an only child.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
Of course, I think it needs to be considered in families formed only by
birth as well. Anytime you are adding to the mix, you will be getting
positive and negative energies added and you don't always know which way the
balance will go.<<<<
Right. I should have been an only child.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/04 9:17:58 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< Right. I should have been an only child. >>
I think all firstborns feel that way to some extent, because there they were!
Only children!! And then the thing comes along. For me, it was Irene. For
Kirby, it was Marty.
My husband Keith was a third of three, so he just doesn't understand.
I kinda got over it. Recently. <bwg>
Sandra
<< Right. I should have been an only child. >>
I think all firstborns feel that way to some extent, because there they were!
Only children!! And then the thing comes along. For me, it was Irene. For
Kirby, it was Marty.
My husband Keith was a third of three, so he just doesn't understand.
I kinda got over it. Recently. <bwg>
Sandra
Ren
"I think all firstborns feel that way to some extent, because there they were!"
Trevor sure feels that way sometimes!! I don't anymore, though I did as a child. I lucked out and got birth siblings I really, really like. One of them is a radical unschooler.:)
Ren
"There is no way to
peace. Peace is the way."
~Quaker saying
Trevor sure feels that way sometimes!! I don't anymore, though I did as a child. I lucked out and got birth siblings I really, really like. One of them is a radical unschooler.:)
Ren
"There is no way to
peace. Peace is the way."
~Quaker saying
Sylvia Toyama
"I think all firstborns feel that way to some extent, because there they were!"
I remember telling my sister and brother that Mom & Dad should have stopped at one child, very smug in the knowledge that would have been me! It was one sure way to really tick off my sister in particular!
Syl
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I remember telling my sister and brother that Mom & Dad should have stopped at one child, very smug in the knowledge that would have been me! It was one sure way to really tick off my sister in particular!
Syl
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/2004 2:43:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
<< Trevor sure feels that way sometimes!! I don't anymore, though I did as a
child. I lucked out and got birth siblings I really, really like. One of them
is a radical unschooler.:)
Ren >>
Maybe it's because I am the oldest and was always the oldest that my siblings
have never treated me as less than their "sister". Not to say we have always
agreed on everything, or even close. They might even have said, "She is my
adopted sister" but not within my hearing.
As a young girl/teenager, even before I KNEW I was adopted I used to say that
all the time to people that would say how different my sister next youngest
to me were from each other. I later found out why my mother cringed every time
she heard me say that. She apparently would think someone had "let out the
secret".
I don't know why it was a secret, I don't care, that's my mom's stuff to deal
with. I just know from the adopted side of the fence how it would sting to
know that I was referred to in different words than my siblings.
Of course we are all white, the birth children have black hair and dark dark
eyes and dark skin. I have very white skin, red hair and green eyes, so to a
big extent I did look very different from all the other kids in the family
too. I know that can't compare with children who are completely a different
ethnicity though.
I was also different in many many ways than any of my parents "birth
children". I was the "perfect" child that always had felt the inner need to do
everything to perfection and to NEVER do anything that might cause anyone distress
or heck, just avoid anything that even seemed wrong.
The birth kids were hell raisers, trouble makers, lazy, disrespectful and
just a nightmare at times. My parents hardly noticed for the most part.
Maybe you are right, maybe there is a distinction in how you love children
that are adopted or are your birth children. Maybe no matter how much I don't
want there to be that, there will always be.
I'd like to believe that if I am able to adopt a child that I would love that
child equally as any I gave birth to. Maybe the circumstances would have to
be just right for that to happen. Maybe older children wouldn't be the same.
Lots of maybes, I can only say what I know or feel from my side of the fence.
Maybe because I know how it would feel I'd be better at it, maybe not.
Since I've examined this, I know there were major differences in how the four
of us were treated. I found lots of reasons for this, mainly me just not
being "good enough" but those were the years when I knew nothing about joining
that family at age 3.5.
glena
starsuncloud@... writes:
<< Trevor sure feels that way sometimes!! I don't anymore, though I did as a
child. I lucked out and got birth siblings I really, really like. One of them
is a radical unschooler.:)
Ren >>
Maybe it's because I am the oldest and was always the oldest that my siblings
have never treated me as less than their "sister". Not to say we have always
agreed on everything, or even close. They might even have said, "She is my
adopted sister" but not within my hearing.
As a young girl/teenager, even before I KNEW I was adopted I used to say that
all the time to people that would say how different my sister next youngest
to me were from each other. I later found out why my mother cringed every time
she heard me say that. She apparently would think someone had "let out the
secret".
I don't know why it was a secret, I don't care, that's my mom's stuff to deal
with. I just know from the adopted side of the fence how it would sting to
know that I was referred to in different words than my siblings.
Of course we are all white, the birth children have black hair and dark dark
eyes and dark skin. I have very white skin, red hair and green eyes, so to a
big extent I did look very different from all the other kids in the family
too. I know that can't compare with children who are completely a different
ethnicity though.
I was also different in many many ways than any of my parents "birth
children". I was the "perfect" child that always had felt the inner need to do
everything to perfection and to NEVER do anything that might cause anyone distress
or heck, just avoid anything that even seemed wrong.
The birth kids were hell raisers, trouble makers, lazy, disrespectful and
just a nightmare at times. My parents hardly noticed for the most part.
Maybe you are right, maybe there is a distinction in how you love children
that are adopted or are your birth children. Maybe no matter how much I don't
want there to be that, there will always be.
I'd like to believe that if I am able to adopt a child that I would love that
child equally as any I gave birth to. Maybe the circumstances would have to
be just right for that to happen. Maybe older children wouldn't be the same.
Lots of maybes, I can only say what I know or feel from my side of the fence.
Maybe because I know how it would feel I'd be better at it, maybe not.
Since I've examined this, I know there were major differences in how the four
of us were treated. I found lots of reasons for this, mainly me just not
being "good enough" but those were the years when I knew nothing about joining
that family at age 3.5.
glena
J. Stauffer
<<<< Maybe you are right, maybe there is a distinction in how you love
children
know that it isn't true.
But kids who were adopted, particularly at an older age, have an entirely
different "story" than kids who were born into the family. There is the
loss of the birthfamily, even for those adopted as infants. The wonderings
of "what if".
There are different genetics at work. We have very close relationships with
our kids' birthfamilies and it is bizarre to me how much genetics is a
factor in who kids are.
I think what Ren was saying is that the EXPERIENCE is different, not that
the love is.
Julie S.
children
> that are adopted or are your birth children.>>>>I don't think that is what Ren is saying. As an adoptive mom, I personally
know that it isn't true.
But kids who were adopted, particularly at an older age, have an entirely
different "story" than kids who were born into the family. There is the
loss of the birthfamily, even for those adopted as infants. The wonderings
of "what if".
There are different genetics at work. We have very close relationships with
our kids' birthfamilies and it is bizarre to me how much genetics is a
factor in who kids are.
I think what Ren was saying is that the EXPERIENCE is different, not that
the love is.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <rubyprincesstsg@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] siblings
> In a message dated 5/19/2004 2:43:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> starsuncloud@... writes:
>
> << Trevor sure feels that way sometimes!! I don't anymore, though I did as
a
> child. I lucked out and got birth siblings I really, really like. One of
them
> is a radical unschooler.:)
>
> Ren >>
>
>
> Maybe it's because I am the oldest and was always the oldest that my
siblings
> have never treated me as less than their "sister". Not to say we have
always
> agreed on everything, or even close. They might even have said, "She is
my
> adopted sister" but not within my hearing.
>
> As a young girl/teenager, even before I KNEW I was adopted I used to say
that
> all the time to people that would say how different my sister next
youngest
> to me were from each other. I later found out why my mother cringed every
time
> she heard me say that. She apparently would think someone had "let out
the
> secret".
>
> I don't know why it was a secret, I don't care, that's my mom's stuff to
deal
> with. I just know from the adopted side of the fence how it would sting
to
> know that I was referred to in different words than my siblings.
>
> Of course we are all white, the birth children have black hair and dark
dark
> eyes and dark skin. I have very white skin, red hair and green eyes, so
to a
> big extent I did look very different from all the other kids in the family
> too. I know that can't compare with children who are completely a
different
> ethnicity though.
>
> I was also different in many many ways than any of my parents "birth
> children". I was the "perfect" child that always had felt the inner need
to do
> everything to perfection and to NEVER do anything that might cause anyone
distress
> or heck, just avoid anything that even seemed wrong.
>
> The birth kids were hell raisers, trouble makers, lazy, disrespectful and
> just a nightmare at times. My parents hardly noticed for the most part.
>
> Maybe you are right, maybe there is a distinction in how you love children
> that are adopted or are your birth children. Maybe no matter how much I
don't
> want there to be that, there will always be.
>
> I'd like to believe that if I am able to adopt a child that I would love
that
> child equally as any I gave birth to. Maybe the circumstances would have
to
> be just right for that to happen. Maybe older children wouldn't be the
same.
> Lots of maybes, I can only say what I know or feel from my side of the
fence.
> Maybe because I know how it would feel I'd be better at it, maybe not.
>
> Since I've examined this, I know there were major differences in how the
four
> of us were treated. I found lots of reasons for this, mainly me just not
> being "good enough" but those were the years when I knew nothing about
joining
> that family at age 3.5.
>
>
> glena
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/04 1:47:49 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< Maybe you are right, maybe there is a distinction in how you love children
that are adopted or are your birth children. Maybe no matter how much I
don't
want there to be that, there will always be.
<<I'd like to believe that if I am able to adopt a child that I would love
that
child equally as any I gave birth to. Maybe the circumstances would have to
be just right for that to happen. >>
There are over six billion people on earth. They're all different. We can't
legislate or wish or prove or prevent much of anything concerning that many
people. What an individual wants or believes won't change facts, and few facts
are universal.
Given that there are lots and LOTS of different factors, instead of us trying
to come to consensus (not possible; not necessary) or judge one thing better
or worse than another, or a parent wrong or right, let's just tell our own
personal stories here in ways that might reveal factors and concepts for others
reading to add to their own mental checklists of considerations, so if they are
asked for advice about adoption or fostering they'll have more to offer than
just their own personal thoughts and wishes and experiences.
There can be glorious successes. There can be problems. We're not
discussing whether adoption is always wrong or always right. We're discussing under
which circumstances can it be better or worse.
Sandra
<< Maybe you are right, maybe there is a distinction in how you love children
that are adopted or are your birth children. Maybe no matter how much I
don't
want there to be that, there will always be.
<<I'd like to believe that if I am able to adopt a child that I would love
that
child equally as any I gave birth to. Maybe the circumstances would have to
be just right for that to happen. >>
There are over six billion people on earth. They're all different. We can't
legislate or wish or prove or prevent much of anything concerning that many
people. What an individual wants or believes won't change facts, and few facts
are universal.
Given that there are lots and LOTS of different factors, instead of us trying
to come to consensus (not possible; not necessary) or judge one thing better
or worse than another, or a parent wrong or right, let's just tell our own
personal stories here in ways that might reveal factors and concepts for others
reading to add to their own mental checklists of considerations, so if they are
asked for advice about adoption or fostering they'll have more to offer than
just their own personal thoughts and wishes and experiences.
There can be glorious successes. There can be problems. We're not
discussing whether adoption is always wrong or always right. We're discussing under
which circumstances can it be better or worse.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/2004 1:08:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< There can be glorious successes. There can be problems. We're not
discussing whether adoption is always wrong or always right. We're
discussing under
which circumstances can it be better or worse.
Sandra >>
I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental of someone else's experience. I was just
trying to say that from my side of the fence (the side of being an adopted
child) who felt all the connections with her siblings and family, it would hurt to
know that I had been ALWAYS referred to as the "adopted" child, instead of
just Glena, the oldest. I can't speak for the parents or siblings as to why or
how they would feel by distinguishing outloud between bio and adopted, I'm
sorry if I did that. I can't possibly know how that would feel.
There are lots of other things that hurt me as a child, probably much worse
than if I had been referred to as the "adopted" child.
I met my bio dad on my 30th birthday. I had thought there might be some
"connection". There was none. He was pleasant enough. He of course had the
upper hand in the relationship, having known about me my whole life, having had
updates, having KNOWN me and loved me until I was almost four. I never knew he
existed until just before my thirtieth year. It was strange that this man I
didn't know had pictures of me in albums of HIS family. His children, my half
siblings, I DID feel very connected to right away. It was very odd for me,
still is.
I did, however, always have dreams about some man coming to "take me away" to
a very nice, very pleasant place, but I thought all children had that dream.
Maybe I did remember him on some level as a child and that there had been a
kind and caring man that sometimes took me to a different safe place. Maybe it
was just childish dreams.
I guess if one had enough specific dreams to compare to thoughts from adults
who were there when the experience might have occurred it could be documented
as fact, or not.
I do remember a moment when I learned I was adopted and this man on the other
end of the phone claiming to be my "dad" and knowing all kinds of information
about me was indeed saying truths, I thought Ahhhh, THAT is why I was treated
like I was treated, it's NOT my fault! I no longer had to try to "fix" or
change something had no idea about.
Of course my truths about adoption cannot be anyone else's. The set of
circumstances are unique to me and my upbringing, yet there are common threads, I'm
sure with almost all adoptions as well.
glena
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< There can be glorious successes. There can be problems. We're not
discussing whether adoption is always wrong or always right. We're
discussing under
which circumstances can it be better or worse.
Sandra >>
I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental of someone else's experience. I was just
trying to say that from my side of the fence (the side of being an adopted
child) who felt all the connections with her siblings and family, it would hurt to
know that I had been ALWAYS referred to as the "adopted" child, instead of
just Glena, the oldest. I can't speak for the parents or siblings as to why or
how they would feel by distinguishing outloud between bio and adopted, I'm
sorry if I did that. I can't possibly know how that would feel.
There are lots of other things that hurt me as a child, probably much worse
than if I had been referred to as the "adopted" child.
I met my bio dad on my 30th birthday. I had thought there might be some
"connection". There was none. He was pleasant enough. He of course had the
upper hand in the relationship, having known about me my whole life, having had
updates, having KNOWN me and loved me until I was almost four. I never knew he
existed until just before my thirtieth year. It was strange that this man I
didn't know had pictures of me in albums of HIS family. His children, my half
siblings, I DID feel very connected to right away. It was very odd for me,
still is.
I did, however, always have dreams about some man coming to "take me away" to
a very nice, very pleasant place, but I thought all children had that dream.
Maybe I did remember him on some level as a child and that there had been a
kind and caring man that sometimes took me to a different safe place. Maybe it
was just childish dreams.
I guess if one had enough specific dreams to compare to thoughts from adults
who were there when the experience might have occurred it could be documented
as fact, or not.
I do remember a moment when I learned I was adopted and this man on the other
end of the phone claiming to be my "dad" and knowing all kinds of information
about me was indeed saying truths, I thought Ahhhh, THAT is why I was treated
like I was treated, it's NOT my fault! I no longer had to try to "fix" or
change something had no idea about.
Of course my truths about adoption cannot be anyone else's. The set of
circumstances are unique to me and my upbringing, yet there are common threads, I'm
sure with almost all adoptions as well.
glena
Sylvia Toyama
Of course my truths about adoption cannot be anyone else's. The set of
circumstances are unique to me and my upbringing, yet there are common threads, I'm
sure with almost all adoptions as well.
***
So, were you an adult when you found out you were adopted? How did you parents keep that a secret? and why? It would make some pretty important aspects of a child's life very confusing to keep a secret like that! I once dated a man who was 13 when he discovered his Dad was really his adoptive stepdad, and that he had a bio-dad out there. Things got worse when he learned his bio-dad had been sending gifts and letters for years, only to have his mom return them unopened. He felt very betrayed by her dishonesty -- to the point that he changed his last name to his bio-dad's when he turned 18, and went to live with his bio-dad.
He also gave me the best piece of advice I ever got as a divorced Mom with an uninvolved ex. In addition to blocking all contact, his Mom went on to tell him that his bio-dad as a really bad guy. Now, maybe he had been when they were married, but by the time Mike met him, Dad was a great guy, and they became fast friends. Mom had zero credibility after that, and Mike had some serious trust issues (last I heard from him he and his wife were in therapy after less than 2yrs of marriage).
His advice was to always be fair, even generous, in talking about my ex to my son, because someday he could turn out to be Mr. Wonderful. Even if he just learned how to look like Mr. Wonderful, it would be enough to leave my son feeling like he'd been lied to. I always did my best to be fair, to explain to my oldest that we'd both been responsible for the mess things were when he was born, and that I genuinely hoped someday his bio-dad would find the happiness he'd never had in childhood. As it happens, my ex doesn't even look like Mr. Wonderful, but that was something my son found out on his own, and it left him free to make his own assessments.
Sometimes the best advice comes from wounded survivors.
Syl
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
circumstances are unique to me and my upbringing, yet there are common threads, I'm
sure with almost all adoptions as well.
***
So, were you an adult when you found out you were adopted? How did you parents keep that a secret? and why? It would make some pretty important aspects of a child's life very confusing to keep a secret like that! I once dated a man who was 13 when he discovered his Dad was really his adoptive stepdad, and that he had a bio-dad out there. Things got worse when he learned his bio-dad had been sending gifts and letters for years, only to have his mom return them unopened. He felt very betrayed by her dishonesty -- to the point that he changed his last name to his bio-dad's when he turned 18, and went to live with his bio-dad.
He also gave me the best piece of advice I ever got as a divorced Mom with an uninvolved ex. In addition to blocking all contact, his Mom went on to tell him that his bio-dad as a really bad guy. Now, maybe he had been when they were married, but by the time Mike met him, Dad was a great guy, and they became fast friends. Mom had zero credibility after that, and Mike had some serious trust issues (last I heard from him he and his wife were in therapy after less than 2yrs of marriage).
His advice was to always be fair, even generous, in talking about my ex to my son, because someday he could turn out to be Mr. Wonderful. Even if he just learned how to look like Mr. Wonderful, it would be enough to leave my son feeling like he'd been lied to. I always did my best to be fair, to explain to my oldest that we'd both been responsible for the mess things were when he was born, and that I genuinely hoped someday his bio-dad would find the happiness he'd never had in childhood. As it happens, my ex doesn't even look like Mr. Wonderful, but that was something my son found out on his own, and it left him free to make his own assessments.
Sometimes the best advice comes from wounded survivors.
Syl
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
>His advice was to always be fair, even generous, in talking about my ex tomy son, because someday he could turn >out to be Mr. Wonderful. As it
happens, my ex doesn't even look like Mr. Wonderful, but that was something
my >son found out on his own, and it left him free to make his own
assessments.
YES YES YES
I have a friend who wondered what to tell her son about his dad. I said,
"Listen, just be honest, with no drama or anything. Someday he'll realize
that Dad's just not terribly mature, but that he does love his son."
Sadly, the boy was well under age five when he realized he was more mature
than Dad. -sigh- But they have a close and loving relationship, so that's
something.
And my parents never said a bad word about each other until I was in my
20's. Dad was annoyed about some tax thing and started mouthing off about
how my mom was bad with money and was taking something away from me
and.....I hung up on him. About three times. He was so sure that my mom
and grandparents had been bad mouthing him. Uhm, no, not even when they
could have.
First, last and only time I ever heard bad from them. Made a sucky
situation better. Really I think they handled the whole divorce thing with
a fair bit of grace, all things considered.
Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/2004 5:16:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
<< So, were you an adult when you found out you were adopted? How did you
parents keep that a secret? and why? It would make some pretty important
aspects of a child's life very confusing to keep a secret like that! >>
Why did they keep it a secret? I asked my Mom that one time and she just
replied "because I thought it was best for you". Mostly I think it was a secret
because my bio dad never agreed to me being taken away and adopted and my
family knew him and I went to live several States away to prevent him from knowing
apparently.
How unfit would it have been for an unwed FATHER to raise a child in the
early 1960's? I don't know.
How did they keep the secret? Apparently because everyone thought I KNEW and
didn't want to talk about it.
How was the secret revealed? Other than my "dad" in younger years in rages
of punishment telling me I could never be his child (which I never thought
meant I really WASN'T) and I'd ask my mother about it later and she said he meant
nothing by it...
In my late twenties I got sick, very sick. I had an undiagnosed liver
failure. The doctors said there were about 80 different diseases with a genetic
aspect that would cause this. He wanted a family history of ANY liver problem.
I asked my mother she said there were none anywhere in the family. It was
Thanksgiving, at my house, I heard my parents in a heated argument in the
bathroom but couldn't tell what the problem was. The next day my adopted dad called
my DH to come visit him at work. There he said "her mother would rather her
die than tell her the truth", "the truth is that I am not her father, and I
will tell you who is". My Aunt that lived in MI, my birth State had already
contacted my father and told him what was going on. That very day as my mother
walked in my front door my phone rang and a man who said he was my father, Glen
________ wanted to know what he could do to help me.
Very awkward moment. I asked him to call back later. I didn't say anything
to my mother at all. When my DH came home that evening he told me about his
conversation with my adopted dad and verified the name of the man who had
called me.
It all happened fairly quickly and it was very difficult at times to try to
grasp. When I called the Aunt in MI to ask her what she knew about this man,
she was very short with me and wanted to know why I was making a "big deal" out
of this, I have known this information for years and had wanted no part of
knowing him. It took me more than half an hour to convince her that I did NOT
know I was adopted and this was all knew to me.
So on my thirtieth birthday (which I always had felt would be traumatic for
me, for some reason it signaled OLD to me at the time) I got on an airplane,
alone and headed for Detroit to meet the man who obviously had loved me very
much for all my life. I knew there were TV stations waiting for me on my
arrival. The made announcements on the plane. Several people bought me glasses of
champagne. I was grateful and drunk and four hours late and I missed the TV
crews and am also grateful for that.
They were great, but they had known about me all my life and loved me and I
did not know them. The siblings were great and while everyone tried to put me
at ease, it was hard for me to know how these people seemed so caring when the
parents I was raised with weren't even like that. I had a very hard time
understanding how this could be so.
As for keeping a secret, I guess the best way to do that is to act like it
isn't a secret at all maybe?
It was weird 13 years ago, it's still weird for me today. I still can't
figure out what was to be gained by a secret like that. Other than my parents
KEEPING me, but most of the time it sure felt like I was not wanted there. Power
trip, control, that's probably got a lot to do with it.
glena
sylgt04@... writes:
<< So, were you an adult when you found out you were adopted? How did you
parents keep that a secret? and why? It would make some pretty important
aspects of a child's life very confusing to keep a secret like that! >>
Why did they keep it a secret? I asked my Mom that one time and she just
replied "because I thought it was best for you". Mostly I think it was a secret
because my bio dad never agreed to me being taken away and adopted and my
family knew him and I went to live several States away to prevent him from knowing
apparently.
How unfit would it have been for an unwed FATHER to raise a child in the
early 1960's? I don't know.
How did they keep the secret? Apparently because everyone thought I KNEW and
didn't want to talk about it.
How was the secret revealed? Other than my "dad" in younger years in rages
of punishment telling me I could never be his child (which I never thought
meant I really WASN'T) and I'd ask my mother about it later and she said he meant
nothing by it...
In my late twenties I got sick, very sick. I had an undiagnosed liver
failure. The doctors said there were about 80 different diseases with a genetic
aspect that would cause this. He wanted a family history of ANY liver problem.
I asked my mother she said there were none anywhere in the family. It was
Thanksgiving, at my house, I heard my parents in a heated argument in the
bathroom but couldn't tell what the problem was. The next day my adopted dad called
my DH to come visit him at work. There he said "her mother would rather her
die than tell her the truth", "the truth is that I am not her father, and I
will tell you who is". My Aunt that lived in MI, my birth State had already
contacted my father and told him what was going on. That very day as my mother
walked in my front door my phone rang and a man who said he was my father, Glen
________ wanted to know what he could do to help me.
Very awkward moment. I asked him to call back later. I didn't say anything
to my mother at all. When my DH came home that evening he told me about his
conversation with my adopted dad and verified the name of the man who had
called me.
It all happened fairly quickly and it was very difficult at times to try to
grasp. When I called the Aunt in MI to ask her what she knew about this man,
she was very short with me and wanted to know why I was making a "big deal" out
of this, I have known this information for years and had wanted no part of
knowing him. It took me more than half an hour to convince her that I did NOT
know I was adopted and this was all knew to me.
So on my thirtieth birthday (which I always had felt would be traumatic for
me, for some reason it signaled OLD to me at the time) I got on an airplane,
alone and headed for Detroit to meet the man who obviously had loved me very
much for all my life. I knew there were TV stations waiting for me on my
arrival. The made announcements on the plane. Several people bought me glasses of
champagne. I was grateful and drunk and four hours late and I missed the TV
crews and am also grateful for that.
They were great, but they had known about me all my life and loved me and I
did not know them. The siblings were great and while everyone tried to put me
at ease, it was hard for me to know how these people seemed so caring when the
parents I was raised with weren't even like that. I had a very hard time
understanding how this could be so.
As for keeping a secret, I guess the best way to do that is to act like it
isn't a secret at all maybe?
It was weird 13 years ago, it's still weird for me today. I still can't
figure out what was to be gained by a secret like that. Other than my parents
KEEPING me, but most of the time it sure felt like I was not wanted there. Power
trip, control, that's probably got a lot to do with it.
glena