Alan & Brenda Leonard

> I'm not sure about the innate goodness thing. We were created with
> innate goodness, but what about the sin nature that entered the human
> race when Eve ate that fruit?
> Sheila

Sheila,

Can you think of these two things as not contradicting each other? I
believe that people are innately good. No problem there. Our sinful
nature, or "original sin" comes from doing things that seperate us from God
and others. That was the original sin of Adam and Eve, that in trying to be
like God, they served their own interests, and and were seperated from the
constant presence of God in the Garden. Being self-centered rather than
Christ-(or God-)centered.

Babies are innately good -- but they are totally self-centered. They don't
care if your hands are full or you're tired, they have needs that must be
met. Fine for a baby, but not particularly attractive in a grown-up! For
babies to grow into loving, caring, responsible people, they must learn to
look beyond that self-centered nature for the will of God in their lives.
They never stop being innately good, but learn to look beyond themselves
with that goodness.

Does that make sense?
brenda

Linda Greene

A book that you guys might be interested in reading is "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn (I think that's his name). It is a real eye openener on this subject.

Linda Greene
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan & Brenda Leonard
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] innate goodness and sin


> I'm not sure about the innate goodness thing. We were created with
> innate goodness, but what about the sin nature that entered the human
> race when Eve ate that fruit?
> Sheila

Sheila,

Can you think of these two things as not contradicting each other? I
believe that people are innately good. No problem there. Our sinful
nature, or "original sin" comes from doing things that seperate us from God
and others. That was the original sin of Adam and Eve, that in trying to be
like God, they served their own interests, and and were seperated from the
constant presence of God in the Garden. Being self-centered rather than
Christ-(or God-)centered.

Babies are innately good -- but they are totally self-centered. They don't
care if your hands are full or you're tired, they have needs that must be
met. Fine for a baby, but not particularly attractive in a grown-up! For
babies to grow into loving, caring, responsible people, they must learn to
look beyond that self-centered nature for the will of God in their lives.
They never stop being innately good, but learn to look beyond themselves
with that goodness.

Does that make sense?
brenda


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/8/02 5:06:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
abtleo@... writes:


> Babies are innately good -- but they are totally self-centered. They don't
> care if your hands are full or you're tired, they have needs that must be
> met. Fine for a baby, but not particularly attractive in a grown-up! For
> babies to grow into loving, caring, responsible people, they must learn to
> look beyond that self-centered nature for the will of God in their lives.
> They never stop being innately good, but learn to look beyond themselves
> with that goodness.
>
> Does that make sense?
> brenda

So is this the thought process that people like Ferber have when giving
advice to raising children? Babies have to *learn* to look beyond their
selves to see gods will? Let them cry it out, or they will *learn* that it is
okay to be self-centered?
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Dnowens@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/8/02 5:06:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
> abtleo@e... writes:
>
>
> > Babies are innately good -- but they are totally self-centered.
They don't
> > care if your hands are full or you're tired, they have needs that
must be
> > met. Fine for a baby, but not particularly attractive in a grown-
up! For
> > babies to grow into loving, caring, responsible people, they must
learn to
> > look beyond that self-centered nature for the will of God in
their lives.
> > They never stop being innately good, but learn to look beyond
themselves
> > with that goodness.
> >
> > Does that make sense?
> > brenda
>
> So is this the thought process that people like Ferber have when
giving
> advice to raising children? Babies have to *learn* to look beyond
their
> selves to see gods will? Let them cry it out, or they will *learn*
that it is
> okay to be self-centered?
> ~Nancy

I don't know if Ferber claims to be a Christian or not so I don't
know what his reasoning is.

My position on it is that babies are born in need of a Savior. At
some point in their life they will have an opportunity to accept or
reject Christ. Apart from Christ, all people are stuck in their
sinful nature. Once saved, the sin nature is forgiven.

So the only one who can make my kids good is Christ. The only one
who can choose Christ for my child is my child himself. I can't
choose it for him. My job is to point my kids to Christ, set an
example of a Christian life, and trust the Holy Spirit to lead my
kids in the direction He wants their lives to take.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/8/02 10:05:25 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< I don't know if Ferber claims to be a Christian or not so I don't
know what his reasoning is. >>

As far as I have ever known my whole life, there are no people recommending
child abuse who don't directly blame/credit God for it.

Alan & Brenda Leonard

> So is this the thought process that people like Ferber have when giving
> advice to raising children? Babies have to *learn* to look beyond their
> selves to see gods will? Let them cry it out, or they will *learn* that it is
> okay to be self-centered?
> ~Nancy

Nancy,

I'm afraid I can't tell you about Ferber's thought process at ALL! But I
can't say I've ever considered him someone I was "like".

I don't see how your second and third sentences (above) address the same
issue. Yes, I think people need to learn to look beyond themselves to see
God's will. To me, that seems obvious; one isn't going to see the will of
God by naval gazing! My original comment implied (I think!) that
self-centeredness is fine in a baby, but that a baby growing into childhood
and adulthood needs to grow up seeing other people's needs, too. But what
does letting a baby "cry it out" have to do with seeing (and thereby
respecting) other people's needs?

An example of respecting someone else's needs was given on this list
recently. It involved a child who wanted to do something late at night, and
a Mom who was too tierd and offered to do the thing the next day. Small,
yes. But that involves a child learning to respect the Mother's need for
rest. Given those terms, the parent in question (Joyce, perhaps?) said that
her daughter was able to respect that. Children are naturally good, kind,
whatever. They only need time and respect themselves to grow. I don't
think that growth is limited to children, btw. Adults grow, too, as
evidenced by the many people here, myself included, whose parenting has
evolved by what they read. I also feel that by learning to parent/unschool
better and putting more trust in my son, I'm moving closer to what God wants
of me, but that's profoundly affected by what I believe. Your experience is
likely very different than mine.

If the image of people as innately good yet also experiencing seperation
from God doesn't work for you, that's fine. It was one that made sense to
me when I first heard it and I only wanted to share. Faith is very
personal.

brenda

Leslie Avery

We are all created in the image of God therefore we
are all good. A sinful nature is one that is not
loving. The opposite of love is sin. If we are not
in a loving nature we are hurting ourselves and others
consequently we will have crying children and angry
children. If we do not give love unconditionally we
will recieve that, if we control we will recieve that,
if we live in love that is what we will recieve. What
we sow that is what we reap. The measuring stick I
use to measure others is what will be used to measure
me.

Leslie


--- kayb85 <sheran@...> wrote:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Dnowens@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 9/8/02 5:06:02 PM Central
> Daylight Time,
> > abtleo@e... writes:
> >
> >
> > > Babies are innately good -- but they are totally
> self-centered.
> They don't
> > > care if your hands are full or you're tired,
> they have needs that
> must be
> > > met. Fine for a baby, but not particularly
> attractive in a grown-
> up! For
> > > babies to grow into loving, caring, responsible
> people, they must
> learn to
> > > look beyond that self-centered nature for the
> will of God in
> their lives.
> > > They never stop being innately good, but learn
> to look beyond
> themselves
> > > with that goodness.
> > >
> > > Does that make sense?
> > > brenda
> >
> > So is this the thought process that people like
> Ferber have when
> giving
> > advice to raising children? Babies have to *learn*
> to look beyond
> their
> > selves to see gods will? Let them cry it out, or
> they will *learn*
> that it is
> > okay to be self-centered?
> > ~Nancy
>
> I don't know if Ferber claims to be a Christian or
> not so I don't
> know what his reasoning is.
>
> My position on it is that babies are born in need of
> a Savior. At
> some point in their life they will have an
> opportunity to accept or
> reject Christ. Apart from Christ, all people are
> stuck in their
> sinful nature. Once saved, the sin nature is
> forgiven.
>
> So the only one who can make my kids good is Christ.
> The only one
> who can choose Christ for my child is my child
> himself. I can't
> choose it for him. My job is to point my kids to
> Christ, set an
> example of a Christian life, and trust the Holy
> Spirit to lead my
> kids in the direction He wants their lives to take.
>
>
> Sheila
>
>


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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/02 11:14:12 AM Central Daylight Time,
abtleo@... writes:


> If the image of people as innately good yet also experiencing seperation
> from God doesn't work for you, that's fine. It was one that made sense to
> me when I first heard it and I only wanted to share. Faith is very
> personal.
>
> brenda
>

Oh I wasn't being (or trying to be) rude, I was sincerely asking if that
ideal is where people like Ferber get their ideas about babies. Someone
posted about letting babies cry it out to teach them to not be self centered.
(or something like that) so that is where my question came from. <g> It was a
genuine question. Not meant to be derogatory toward Christians at all.
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]