another intro or saying no or something (lost post)
[email protected]
I saw a post this afternoon and thought I would try to answer it (maybe ask
for clarification first) but now it's not in my new mail. I can't bear the
thought of going through the old mail or deleted mail (which will be gone
tomorrow) because I was at a local conference today and am going back
tomorrow and I'm tired.
A question was addressed to me by name, and it was something about Kirby
potentially hitting Marty, if I handled things as I was claiming to, and what
would come of it. (I'm not quoting, just trying to give enough to identify
it.)
If anyone knows which one and could repost it I'd appreciate it. OR if one
of you asked it and you could rephrase it more clearly or cancel the request
if it's already been covered by today's chit chat, I'd appreciate it.
Sandra
for clarification first) but now it's not in my new mail. I can't bear the
thought of going through the old mail or deleted mail (which will be gone
tomorrow) because I was at a local conference today and am going back
tomorrow and I'm tired.
A question was addressed to me by name, and it was something about Kirby
potentially hitting Marty, if I handled things as I was claiming to, and what
would come of it. (I'm not quoting, just trying to give enough to identify
it.)
If anyone knows which one and could repost it I'd appreciate it. OR if one
of you asked it and you could rephrase it more clearly or cancel the request
if it's already been covered by today's chit chat, I'd appreciate it.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/2002 7:03:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
So what would you do if Kirby would be physical, like just one smack and the
other wouldn't leave the room? Then it would happen again and again, not on
a daily basis but to see that the younger one would get hit before getting a
chance to leave and the older one didn't get keeping his hands to himself??
I know you're not saying this happened, I'm just asking what you think you
would have done if it did?
Mary B"
-Stephanie (a lurker)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> A question was addressed to me by name, and it was something about Kirby"Sandra,
> potentially hitting Marty, if I handled things as I was claiming to, and
> what
> would come of it. (I'm not quoting, just trying to give enough to identify
>
> it.)
>
> If anyone knows which one and could repost it I'd appreciate it.
So what would you do if Kirby would be physical, like just one smack and the
other wouldn't leave the room? Then it would happen again and again, not on
a daily basis but to see that the younger one would get hit before getting a
chance to leave and the older one didn't get keeping his hands to himself??
I know you're not saying this happened, I'm just asking what you think you
would have done if it did?
Mary B"
-Stephanie (a lurker)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 8:28:13 PM, Mam2474@... writes:
<< So what would you do if Kirby would be physical, like just one smack and
the
other wouldn't leave the room? Then it would happen again and again, not on
a daily basis but to see that the younger one would get hit before getting a
chance to leave and the older one didn't get keeping his hands to himself??
Now I might need the clarification! <g>
I think what it means is if the pattern repeated and it involved physical
attack, what would I do?
Sometimes it did.
Sometimes Marty would be not taking care of video equipment and kirby would
lunge at him and grab him by shoulders and be yelling, or he would have
backhanded him on the arm in the process of taking a controller away from
him. Kirby's worst time was when he was 12, and we all would shake our heads
and take deep breaths and just hope he would grow out of it, which he did,
beautifully.
BUT when it was still in the awful period, I would get Marty out of Kirby's
room and let him vent and tell me his side. While that was happening, Marty
was feeling comforted and Kirby was calming down, straightening up his stuff,
thinking bad thoughts about Marty or whatever, but his adrenaline was going
down.
I'd find something Marty could be involved with, whether actually needed or
something he had wanted to do but forgotten, or whether it was a kinda
trumped up "Could you take the dog out to play?" or "Could you water the back
yard a bit?" Something good, useful and distracting for Marty that made him
feel important.
Then I would go back to Kirby's room and say "Marty needs to be safe in his
own home, y'know."
And he would say "My stuff needs to be safe ind. Sometimes Marty had just
left out one important detail (the reason Kirby got angry, usually <g>).
Sometimes it was misinterpretation. I'd ask Kirby what could have gone
better. I would remind Kirby of the process: First talk. Second get an
adult to help. THIRD hit. I would not go with "Never, never hit," because
if someone grabs these kids against their will, I want them to hit with
feeling. If someone's hurting their sister or stealing their gameboy,
hitting's okay with me. But I would go with his having hit without getting
assistance FIRST. It was a technicality which had some benefits, one of them
being the kids' hope that maybe if an adult failed to negotiate the problem
they had plan C--hitting. I just made sure I never once failed to negotiate
successfully.
I'd help Kirby process what happened, thank him for whatever he HAD done
right and good (sharing his room and stuff in the first place, being willing
to discuss it, calming down), and ask him again to try to be more patient and
to get help sooner next time.
Then I'd go BACK to Marty and say, "So... You didn't tell me you called him
a butt." (Or whatever it was...)
But by then Marty would be all calmed down too, and feeling better about
himself.
I don't know if that answers the question or not, and I'm not positive I
understand the question. IF the question is suggesting that something I was
doing would encourage hitting and cause it to be habitual, I can't see how it
would (and it didn't).
Sandra
<< So what would you do if Kirby would be physical, like just one smack and
the
other wouldn't leave the room? Then it would happen again and again, not on
a daily basis but to see that the younger one would get hit before getting a
chance to leave and the older one didn't get keeping his hands to himself??
>>Thanks for re-posting that.
Now I might need the clarification! <g>
I think what it means is if the pattern repeated and it involved physical
attack, what would I do?
Sometimes it did.
Sometimes Marty would be not taking care of video equipment and kirby would
lunge at him and grab him by shoulders and be yelling, or he would have
backhanded him on the arm in the process of taking a controller away from
him. Kirby's worst time was when he was 12, and we all would shake our heads
and take deep breaths and just hope he would grow out of it, which he did,
beautifully.
BUT when it was still in the awful period, I would get Marty out of Kirby's
room and let him vent and tell me his side. While that was happening, Marty
was feeling comforted and Kirby was calming down, straightening up his stuff,
thinking bad thoughts about Marty or whatever, but his adrenaline was going
down.
I'd find something Marty could be involved with, whether actually needed or
something he had wanted to do but forgotten, or whether it was a kinda
trumped up "Could you take the dog out to play?" or "Could you water the back
yard a bit?" Something good, useful and distracting for Marty that made him
feel important.
Then I would go back to Kirby's room and say "Marty needs to be safe in his
own home, y'know."
And he would say "My stuff needs to be safe ind. Sometimes Marty had just
left out one important detail (the reason Kirby got angry, usually <g>).
Sometimes it was misinterpretation. I'd ask Kirby what could have gone
better. I would remind Kirby of the process: First talk. Second get an
adult to help. THIRD hit. I would not go with "Never, never hit," because
if someone grabs these kids against their will, I want them to hit with
feeling. If someone's hurting their sister or stealing their gameboy,
hitting's okay with me. But I would go with his having hit without getting
assistance FIRST. It was a technicality which had some benefits, one of them
being the kids' hope that maybe if an adult failed to negotiate the problem
they had plan C--hitting. I just made sure I never once failed to negotiate
successfully.
I'd help Kirby process what happened, thank him for whatever he HAD done
right and good (sharing his room and stuff in the first place, being willing
to discuss it, calming down), and ask him again to try to be more patient and
to get help sooner next time.
Then I'd go BACK to Marty and say, "So... You didn't tell me you called him
a butt." (Or whatever it was...)
But by then Marty would be all calmed down too, and feeling better about
himself.
I don't know if that answers the question or not, and I'm not positive I
understand the question. IF the question is suggesting that something I was
doing would encourage hitting and cause it to be habitual, I can't see how it
would (and it didn't).
Sandra
mummyone24
> I don't know if that answers the question or not, and I'm notpositive I
> understand the question. IF the question is suggesting thatsomething I was
> doing would encourage hitting and cause it to be habitual, I can'tsee how it
> would (and it didn't).I don't know what happened to my email bit everything bounced and I'm
>
> Sandra
now just going through all the stuff I missed.
Sandra, my question was in no way meant to reflect on anything you
did with your kids. I was asking on behalf of myself and my kids.
My son is rather an old soul and so very different from our other 3.
Much more complex. He just doesn't get keeping his hands to himself
with his sister. I also don't go with the never hit thing and have
explained that whole scenario. He gets that, he understands that it's
not nice to hit or even productive within the family. But when his
sister frustrates him, like I know she's good at doing, he just
smacks her without thinking. He knows he shouldn't, he admits to me
that he did it and why. I just can't seem to get him to come to me or
say something to her first. His first reaction is to pop her one. Now
it's not really bad. He doesn't use anything but his hand and it's
not a punch or anything and she gets very dramatic when he does it.
The whole thing ends up a major deal on both parts. Whatever I've
been saying isn't getting it.
This doesn't happen every day but enough for me to worry why I can't
solve this. You can tell right away he's sorry he does it but just
doesn't think about it first. We've worked out together all kinds of
other ways for him to solve the problem but when the time comes, he
doesn't use any of them. These are the 2 that are 13 months apart.
They are almost 7 and 8. She's the younger one.
Mary B
Kelli Traaseth
Mary, I don't know if any one has responded to this, because I'm a bit behind on e-mails, but I know my 9 and 7 yr olds do this also. What I feel has helped is sitting down with them one on one and really discussing what they are feeling. My daughter is the one that hits (she's almost 8) and she is so embarrased by it but says she can't stop it. So we've been talking alot about how upset her 9 yr old brother is making her. I in turn then talk with my son also, he has no idea that he is upsetting her so much. We really had a good talk last night, I told her about myself, being a little sister and how my brother used to make me feel bad. Trying to enlighten her on the fact that he's not intentionally trying to hurt her. I think Sandra and others have some really good points about giving respect to our children. Talk with them, like we would want to be talked to. Explaining things can do wonders, all we need to do is take a little time and it makes such a big difference in their lives!
Kelli
mummyone24 wrote:
now just going through all the stuff I missed.
Sandra, my question was in no way meant to reflect on anything you
did with your kids. I was asking on behalf of myself and my kids.
My son is rather an old soul and so very different from our other 3.
Much more complex. He just doesn't get keeping his hands to himself
with his sister. I also don't go with the never hit thing and have
explained that whole scenario. He gets that, he understands that it's
not nice to hit or even productive within the family. But when his
sister frustrates him, like I know she's good at doing, he just
smacks her without thinking. He knows he shouldn't, he admits to me
that he did it and why. I just can't seem to get him to come to me or
say something to her first. His first reaction is to pop her one. Now
it's not really bad. He doesn't use anything but his hand and it's
not a punch or anything and she gets very dramatic when he does it.
The whole thing ends up a major deal on both parts. Whatever I've
been saying isn't getting it.
This doesn't happen every day but enough for me to worry why I can't
solve this. You can tell right away he's sorry he does it but just
doesn't think about it first. We've worked out together all kinds of
other ways for him to solve the problem but when the time comes, he
doesn't use any of them. These are the 2 that are 13 months apart.
They are almost 7 and 8. She's the younger one.
Mary B
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli
mummyone24 wrote:
> I don't know if that answers the question or not, and I'm notpositive I
> understand the question. IF the question is suggesting thatsomething I was
> doing would encourage hitting and cause it to be habitual, I can'tsee how it
> would (and it didn't).I don't know what happened to my email bit everything bounced and I'm
>
> Sandra
now just going through all the stuff I missed.
Sandra, my question was in no way meant to reflect on anything you
did with your kids. I was asking on behalf of myself and my kids.
My son is rather an old soul and so very different from our other 3.
Much more complex. He just doesn't get keeping his hands to himself
with his sister. I also don't go with the never hit thing and have
explained that whole scenario. He gets that, he understands that it's
not nice to hit or even productive within the family. But when his
sister frustrates him, like I know she's good at doing, he just
smacks her without thinking. He knows he shouldn't, he admits to me
that he did it and why. I just can't seem to get him to come to me or
say something to her first. His first reaction is to pop her one. Now
it's not really bad. He doesn't use anything but his hand and it's
not a punch or anything and she gets very dramatic when he does it.
The whole thing ends up a major deal on both parts. Whatever I've
been saying isn't getting it.
This doesn't happen every day but enough for me to worry why I can't
solve this. You can tell right away he's sorry he does it but just
doesn't think about it first. We've worked out together all kinds of
other ways for him to solve the problem but when the time comes, he
doesn't use any of them. These are the 2 that are 13 months apart.
They are almost 7 and 8. She's the younger one.
Mary B
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I just remembered something I dide with Kirby some and Marty LOTS... and that
is to sit in a rocking chair or some other quiet, comfortable,
private-to-the-two place, and we would fantasize about how it would be
different if he had been the only child. We'd go through the good stuff, and
then some of the not-perfect stuff, but it would be calming to both of us.
And I would say it's nice sometimes to think about other possibilities, and
that I would love him just as much either way, but if he was the only one I
would probably be more protective and afraid, and he would be lonelier and
probably get tired of me easier. And we would just rock and touch, and let
those ideas about being together LOTS more just wash over us.
And I think the reminder that I loved him so much that I would be VERY happy
if he was my only child made him more compassionate toward me, himself, and
the next younger (whether Marty or Holly).
Sandra
is to sit in a rocking chair or some other quiet, comfortable,
private-to-the-two place, and we would fantasize about how it would be
different if he had been the only child. We'd go through the good stuff, and
then some of the not-perfect stuff, but it would be calming to both of us.
And I would say it's nice sometimes to think about other possibilities, and
that I would love him just as much either way, but if he was the only one I
would probably be more protective and afraid, and he would be lonelier and
probably get tired of me easier. And we would just rock and touch, and let
those ideas about being together LOTS more just wash over us.
And I think the reminder that I loved him so much that I would be VERY happy
if he was my only child made him more compassionate toward me, himself, and
the next younger (whether Marty or Holly).
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>From: Kelli Traaseth <kellitraas@...>Thank you Kelli. I appreciate the response.
>
>Mary, I don't know if any one has responded to this, because I'm a bit
>behind on e-mails, but I know my 9 and 7 yr olds do this also.
With my son, as sounds like yours also, he really seems like he doesn't want
to do it. He never lies about it and his response as to why is usually,
"because she's bothering me." We do talk about this without her being around
and we come up with all kinds of things for him to do next time. Like going
in his room, getting me, telling her that she knows what will happen if she
doesn't stop. But again when the time comes, none of that happens.
With her, she does push his buttons. Of course he is quite capable of doing
the same to her but she doesn't usually react with hitting, she just yells
and calls for me. It seems like she does it (bugs him) on purpose and many
times I do hear him warning her but by the time I get there, it's too late.
When I talk to her about why she does what she does, she says she doesn't
know why and if I try harder to understand, she cries. She's a big cryer and
when asked for anything that she doesn't want to give an answer to, she
cries.
I know I should probably concentrate more on why she does it but I can't
seem to get anywhere with her.
On a good note, it has been at least a week since a hitting episode
happened. Maybe it's a stage??
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
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Betsy
**When I talk to her about why she does what she does, she says she
doesn't
know why and if I try harder to understand, she cries. She's a big cryer
and
when asked for anything that she doesn't want to give an answer to, she
cries.**
Hi, Mary --
You definitely have my sympathy on this. I only have one child, so he's
clearly not pulling this just to gain advantage over a sibling, but he's
all tears and no talk when he is upset. Rational discussion just can't
happen, which frustrates me. The old standbys, waiting and hugging,
work a little. But not as much as I'd like.
Betsy
doesn't
know why and if I try harder to understand, she cries. She's a big cryer
and
when asked for anything that she doesn't want to give an answer to, she
cries.**
Hi, Mary --
You definitely have my sympathy on this. I only have one child, so he's
clearly not pulling this just to gain advantage over a sibling, but he's
all tears and no talk when he is upset. Rational discussion just can't
happen, which frustrates me. The old standbys, waiting and hugging,
work a little. But not as much as I'd like.
Betsy
[email protected]
It could be a stage thatgoes away with Maturity, It could be just a step on
the way to less control and more hitting.
Here is what goes through my head.
Don't leave them alone together. Ever. They obviously need your help getting
along. Until they can start talking through their differences, make sure
they have their own space, maybe their rooms, where the other is not to
enter without permission. If your neighbor was hitting you, would you keep
letting her come in your house? I think it is very important to number one,
keep them safe. Hitting is not safe, it's abuse. Even if the one doing so is
8. stop the situation, remove the offender from the situation, talk to the
hitee, and later go back and talk with the hitter. A dangerous person must
be removed from the area.
I really like Sandra's idea about talking to each of them about life
without siblings The good parts and the lonely parts.
Institute a date night with your DH and each child. At our house on Fridays,
(we alternate weeks) each parent takes one child out, to a movie, for ice
cream whatever is in your budget. Focus some time exclusively on the
individual, just having fun, talking BEing together. I think alot of sibling
rivalry (at least here) comes from jealousy of Mom or Dad's attention to the
other.
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160
the way to less control and more hitting.
Here is what goes through my head.
Don't leave them alone together. Ever. They obviously need your help getting
along. Until they can start talking through their differences, make sure
they have their own space, maybe their rooms, where the other is not to
enter without permission. If your neighbor was hitting you, would you keep
letting her come in your house? I think it is very important to number one,
keep them safe. Hitting is not safe, it's abuse. Even if the one doing so is
8. stop the situation, remove the offender from the situation, talk to the
hitee, and later go back and talk with the hitter. A dangerous person must
be removed from the area.
I really like Sandra's idea about talking to each of them about life
without siblings The good parts and the lonely parts.
Institute a date night with your DH and each child. At our house on Fridays,
(we alternate weeks) each parent takes one child out, to a movie, for ice
cream whatever is in your budget. Focus some time exclusively on the
individual, just having fun, talking BEing together. I think alot of sibling
rivalry (at least here) comes from jealousy of Mom or Dad's attention to the
other.
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160