Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] more no's
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/2002 11:14:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
the_colbecks@... writes:
of things (I'll volunteer voluntarily, thank you!), and when I've taken on
too much and can't physically DO any more (that's right now, by the way). My
mother gets a lot of "no's", but then again, I heard a lot of them from
her---so that's "no" big deal!
People seem to have trouble saying "no" to strangers or acquaintances or the
school, but they are dead-set on "no-ing" their kids to death. Control.
kellyinsc
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_colbecks@... writes:
> I doNow, there ARE times I'll say "no"--- when asked to volunteer for all sorts
> always seek the 'yes', but sometimes, for me, the answer is just no. This
> applies to my dh, my dd, my mom - everybody in my life. Sometimes the
> answer is just no.
of things (I'll volunteer voluntarily, thank you!), and when I've taken on
too much and can't physically DO any more (that's right now, by the way). My
mother gets a lot of "no's", but then again, I heard a lot of them from
her---so that's "no" big deal!
People seem to have trouble saying "no" to strangers or acquaintances or the
school, but they are dead-set on "no-ing" their kids to death. Control.
kellyinsc
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Helen Colbeck
I don't generally have trouble saying 'no' to strangers, and I do try to
find the 'yes' with my kids if I can, but I honestly have not yet been able
to see a way of modelling self-care to my kids while NEVER saying no to
them.
I think that in general, kids hear WAY too many no's. I try hard to weed
out the controlling no's, such as those pertaining to finishing food (my
line has always been "She knows how hungry she is better than I do"), what
clothes to wear, that sort of thing. There are times when I still say no,
though. Yesterday, I was tired, I had spent the whole day with her, and I
needed a break, so I ran a bath. She wanted in. I was cool with her
visiting with me while I had my bath, but I did not care to share it, so the
answer was no. It was a respectful no, and an explained no, but it was no.
It would have been no for my dh, my mom, or even any passing strangers or
acquaintances.
There are also times when she will push me into a no. There are times when
her request is not unreasonable, but there is a NOW tacked onto it that
forces it into a no situation. She is learning that one still :-) - that if
she is too inflexible, she can end up with less than if she is willing to
compromise a bit. It's a tough one for some adults to learn :-).
I have seen this thread before, and I never quite believe it. I mean -
NEVER saying no?? If someone told me they never say no to their spouse, I
would consider that unhealthy. I think every relationship has to have room
for a good solid no.
To be honest, I think that the real problem is when the kids are not allowed
to say no to the parents, but hear no all the time. THAT was my frustration
as a kid, and something I try to keep balanced with my kids (often
unsuccessfully <g>).
H.
From: kbcdlovejo@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:22:39 EDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] more no's
In a message dated 9/6/2002 11:14:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
the_colbecks@... writes:
of things (I'll volunteer voluntarily, thank you!), and when I've taken on
too much and can't physically DO any more (that's right now, by the way). My
mother gets a lot of "no's", but then again, I heard a lot of them from
her---so that's "no" big deal!
People seem to have trouble saying "no" to strangers or acquaintances or the
school, but they are dead-set on "no-ing" their kids to death. Control.
kellyinsc
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
find the 'yes' with my kids if I can, but I honestly have not yet been able
to see a way of modelling self-care to my kids while NEVER saying no to
them.
I think that in general, kids hear WAY too many no's. I try hard to weed
out the controlling no's, such as those pertaining to finishing food (my
line has always been "She knows how hungry she is better than I do"), what
clothes to wear, that sort of thing. There are times when I still say no,
though. Yesterday, I was tired, I had spent the whole day with her, and I
needed a break, so I ran a bath. She wanted in. I was cool with her
visiting with me while I had my bath, but I did not care to share it, so the
answer was no. It was a respectful no, and an explained no, but it was no.
It would have been no for my dh, my mom, or even any passing strangers or
acquaintances.
There are also times when she will push me into a no. There are times when
her request is not unreasonable, but there is a NOW tacked onto it that
forces it into a no situation. She is learning that one still :-) - that if
she is too inflexible, she can end up with less than if she is willing to
compromise a bit. It's a tough one for some adults to learn :-).
I have seen this thread before, and I never quite believe it. I mean -
NEVER saying no?? If someone told me they never say no to their spouse, I
would consider that unhealthy. I think every relationship has to have room
for a good solid no.
To be honest, I think that the real problem is when the kids are not allowed
to say no to the parents, but hear no all the time. THAT was my frustration
as a kid, and something I try to keep balanced with my kids (often
unsuccessfully <g>).
H.
From: kbcdlovejo@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:22:39 EDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] more no's
In a message dated 9/6/2002 11:14:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
the_colbecks@... writes:
> I doNow, there ARE times I'll say "no"--- when asked to volunteer for all sorts
> always seek the 'yes', but sometimes, for me, the answer is just no. This
> applies to my dh, my dd, my mom - everybody in my life. Sometimes the
> answer is just no.
of things (I'll volunteer voluntarily, thank you!), and when I've taken on
too much and can't physically DO any more (that's right now, by the way). My
mother gets a lot of "no's", but then again, I heard a lot of them from
her---so that's "no" big deal!
People seem to have trouble saying "no" to strangers or acquaintances or the
school, but they are dead-set on "no-ing" their kids to death. Control.
kellyinsc
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 2:12:49 PM, the_colbecks@... writes:
<< but I honestly have not yet been able
to see a way of modelling self-care to my kids while NEVER saying no to
them. >>
If Holly wants me to do something with or for her late at night and I'm
really sleepy, sometimes I say "Holly, I'm really too sleepy. I'm sorry."
She understands that.
Some of my objection to people saying "No" is the physical word "No." I
heard it WAY too much when I was a kid. And I heard "I said NO," and "You
need to learn to take NO for an answer" and "NO, now shut up." Some parents
feel virtuous saying no. One guy (Someone might remember who, some columnist
or parenting-advice guy?) says if you don't say "no" at least five times a
day, and if you don't say "no" more often than you say "yes," you're being a
bad parent. (Anyone know what I'm failing to remember? Maybe I don't have
it quite right.)
Sandra
<< but I honestly have not yet been able
to see a way of modelling self-care to my kids while NEVER saying no to
them. >>
If Holly wants me to do something with or for her late at night and I'm
really sleepy, sometimes I say "Holly, I'm really too sleepy. I'm sorry."
She understands that.
Some of my objection to people saying "No" is the physical word "No." I
heard it WAY too much when I was a kid. And I heard "I said NO," and "You
need to learn to take NO for an answer" and "NO, now shut up." Some parents
feel virtuous saying no. One guy (Someone might remember who, some columnist
or parenting-advice guy?) says if you don't say "no" at least five times a
day, and if you don't say "no" more often than you say "yes," you're being a
bad parent. (Anyone know what I'm failing to remember? Maybe I don't have
it quite right.)
Sandra
achisms5
>One guy (Someone might remember who, some columnisttimes a
> or parenting-advice guy?) says if you don't say "no" at least five
> day, and if you don't say "no" more often than you say "yes,"you're being a
> bad parent. (Anyone know what I'm failing to remember? Maybe Idon't have
> it quite right.)John Rosemond.
>
> Sandra
Mary
helencolbeck
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
to never have to say no. If my child did that, I would never have to
say no either!! <grin>
Oh, my daughter understands it - she just doesn't accept that it
really means no (which is what it means). Her response is, "But
I WANT to!" or "Please, Mommy, just one story ...(or whatever)"
(sometimes that is her response - sometimes she kisses me
and brings me a pillow :-)) The question is, what do you say
when you tell your child you are too sleepy, and she doesn't
accept it? She never pushes? Are you telling me that you
believe no child would ever push that, if they had never been told
no? That every child, given enough latitude and never refused
any desire, would understand and accept that every time? I
know, I know... I am getting into extremes here, but I am working
my way towards the possibility that some children (good kids,
nice kids, even kids who have been raised 'properly') may
respond less simply than your daughter, prompting you to
choose between acquiescing or protecting your own boundaries.
There are times when it is perfectly within your prerogative to say
no. I don't like the idea of modelling for my daughter that I should
give in and acquiesce whenever my statement of my own needs
is challenged, which is where this 'never say no' road always
seems to lead, in my view. The argument seems to be that her
needs are ultimately more important than mine, so I should
consistently ignore my needs whenever she claims to have a
desire that she feels I should. I don't feel that's a healthy
dynamic.
As for your own issues with the word "no", I don't share them. I
am sorry that you had such a hard childhood (no sarcasm,
nothing like that - I really am). That does seem like a rather
subjective objection to the use of the word no, though. It is,
nevertheless, a very useful word for all kinds of tricky situations.
H.
>writes:
> In a message dated 9/6/02 2:12:49 PM, the_colbecks@s...
>saying no to
> << but I honestly have not yet been able
> to see a way of modelling self-care to my kids while NEVER
> them. >>and I'm
>
> If Holly wants me to do something with or for her late at night
> really sleepy, sometimes I say "Holly, I'm really too sleepy. I'msorry."
>... and accepts it without question, every time, thus allowing you
> She understands that.
to never have to say no. If my child did that, I would never have to
say no either!! <grin>
Oh, my daughter understands it - she just doesn't accept that it
really means no (which is what it means). Her response is, "But
I WANT to!" or "Please, Mommy, just one story ...(or whatever)"
(sometimes that is her response - sometimes she kisses me
and brings me a pillow :-)) The question is, what do you say
when you tell your child you are too sleepy, and she doesn't
accept it? She never pushes? Are you telling me that you
believe no child would ever push that, if they had never been told
no? That every child, given enough latitude and never refused
any desire, would understand and accept that every time? I
know, I know... I am getting into extremes here, but I am working
my way towards the possibility that some children (good kids,
nice kids, even kids who have been raised 'properly') may
respond less simply than your daughter, prompting you to
choose between acquiescing or protecting your own boundaries.
There are times when it is perfectly within your prerogative to say
no. I don't like the idea of modelling for my daughter that I should
give in and acquiesce whenever my statement of my own needs
is challenged, which is where this 'never say no' road always
seems to lead, in my view. The argument seems to be that her
needs are ultimately more important than mine, so I should
consistently ignore my needs whenever she claims to have a
desire that she feels I should. I don't feel that's a healthy
dynamic.
> Some of my objection to people saying "No" is the physicalword "No." I
> heard it WAY too much when I was a kid. And I heard "I saidNO," and "You
> need to learn to take NO for an answer" and "NO, now shut up."Some parents
> feel virtuous saying no. One guy (Someone might rememberwho, some columnist
> or parenting-advice guy?) says if you don't say "no" at least fivetimes a
> day, and if you don't say "no" more often than you say "yes,"you're being a
> bad parent. (Anyone know what I'm failing to remember?Maybe I don't have
> it quite right.)OK, so that guy sounds like a moron. :-)
As for your own issues with the word "no", I don't share them. I
am sorry that you had such a hard childhood (no sarcasm,
nothing like that - I really am). That does seem like a rather
subjective objection to the use of the word no, though. It is,
nevertheless, a very useful word for all kinds of tricky situations.
H.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 6:17:03 PM, the_colbecks@... writes:
-=- The question is, what do you say
when you tell your child you are too sleepy, and she doesn't
accept it? She never pushes? -=-
Very rarely. I offer an alternative, or I promise something for the next day
to make up for it.
She does the same kinds of things for me.
-=-Are you telling me that you
believe no child would ever push that, if they had never been told
no? -=-
Well... I'm telling you that my kids are VERY understanding, and I think it
comes directly from their dad and I being consciously careful of being very
understanding with them.
-=-That every child, given enough latitude and never refused
any desire, would understand and accept that every time?-=-
I'm saying that saying no to children when it's unnecessary will NOT make
them more generous and understanding and accepting, but will make them very
quickly and assuredly LESS so.
-=-I am working
my way towards the possibility that some children (good kids,
nice kids, even kids who have been raised 'properly') may
respond less simply than your daughter-=-
I don't see it as "simple." I see it as a compassionate trust build by
compassionate action.
-=-prompting you to
choose between acquiescing or protecting your own boundaries. -=-
From La Leche League (and the many excellent examples of loving famlies I met
through that organization) and from reading The Continuum Concept, I came
early to the belief that my children and I are not adversaries, but partners.
What is good for "us" is good for both/all of us. My boundaries don't shut
out my children. "Acquiescing" has a bad reputation, doesn't it? IF I can
read to her or hang out with her and she wants me to I do it. I do it WAY
more often than not, and I do it as gently and sweetly as I can, and because
she knows that to be true, she's more understanding when I can't than she
would be if I often "said no."
-=There are times when it is perfectly within your prerogative to say
no. I don't like the idea of modelling for my daughter that I should
give in and acquiesce whenever my statement of my own needs
is challenged, which is where this 'never say no' road always
seems to lead, in my view. -=-
It is always within your prerogative to say no, since you put it that way.
My mom said no nearly all the time. What good did it do me or her?
I learned very early on that she was selfish and lazy and not a very good
mother. Her boundaries protected alcoholism and smoking cigarettes FIRST and
if there was leftover energy or money MAYBE her children got a crumb. So my
prejudice against mothers who enjoy saying "no" is real and personal.
And without anyone knowing a bit about the realities of my upbringing, I have
come to know dozens of families in which "no" is saved for dangerous
situations, and even then the answers are loving explanations, not "NO,
because I'm the mom," or "No because I said so."
-=-The argument seems to be that her
needs are ultimately more important than mine, so I should
consistently ignore my needs whenever she claims to have a
desire that she feels I should. I don't feel that's a healthy
dynamic. -=-
My daughter didn't create me. I decided to have a baby. I knew how, and I
did what it took. I didn't prevent it. I owe her. She doesn't owe me
diddly. [I know there are arguments to the contrary from Christian belief in
God's will, and in New Age theories that children choose their parents, but
I'm talking now of what I believe and what I base my decisions on.]
My parents used us as servants sometimes. It was tacky. I'm not going to do
that.
The needs of any two year old are real. They're hungry or afraid or sleepy
FOR REAL. It's not a mental construct or a decision they're making. They're
not able to wait very well or very long. And so the need of a two year old
is vital to that child. And that child's health and wellbeing are vital to
the mother because if the baby is messed up it's more work in the longrun
than just seeing to the child's needs while they're immediate and small.
A parent taking all their rights at the expense of the happiness of a child
they created is way more unhealthy than selfless compassion and a generosity
of spirit could ever, ever be.
-=- That does seem like a rather
subjective objection to the use of the word no, though. It is,
nevertheless, a very useful word for all kinds of tricky situations.
-=-
Sure. When other people are critical of or make mean fun of my kids I
quickly say "NO, don't do that. If I wanted them treated that way I would
send them to school."
Subjective objections are not sinful or wrong. Objective discussions can be
uninformed discussions. If there's anyone who was NEVER harmed by the word
no, perhaps the first people they should be listening to are those who were.
Sandra
-=- The question is, what do you say
when you tell your child you are too sleepy, and she doesn't
accept it? She never pushes? -=-
Very rarely. I offer an alternative, or I promise something for the next day
to make up for it.
She does the same kinds of things for me.
-=-Are you telling me that you
believe no child would ever push that, if they had never been told
no? -=-
Well... I'm telling you that my kids are VERY understanding, and I think it
comes directly from their dad and I being consciously careful of being very
understanding with them.
-=-That every child, given enough latitude and never refused
any desire, would understand and accept that every time?-=-
I'm saying that saying no to children when it's unnecessary will NOT make
them more generous and understanding and accepting, but will make them very
quickly and assuredly LESS so.
-=-I am working
my way towards the possibility that some children (good kids,
nice kids, even kids who have been raised 'properly') may
respond less simply than your daughter-=-
I don't see it as "simple." I see it as a compassionate trust build by
compassionate action.
-=-prompting you to
choose between acquiescing or protecting your own boundaries. -=-
From La Leche League (and the many excellent examples of loving famlies I met
through that organization) and from reading The Continuum Concept, I came
early to the belief that my children and I are not adversaries, but partners.
What is good for "us" is good for both/all of us. My boundaries don't shut
out my children. "Acquiescing" has a bad reputation, doesn't it? IF I can
read to her or hang out with her and she wants me to I do it. I do it WAY
more often than not, and I do it as gently and sweetly as I can, and because
she knows that to be true, she's more understanding when I can't than she
would be if I often "said no."
-=There are times when it is perfectly within your prerogative to say
no. I don't like the idea of modelling for my daughter that I should
give in and acquiesce whenever my statement of my own needs
is challenged, which is where this 'never say no' road always
seems to lead, in my view. -=-
It is always within your prerogative to say no, since you put it that way.
My mom said no nearly all the time. What good did it do me or her?
I learned very early on that she was selfish and lazy and not a very good
mother. Her boundaries protected alcoholism and smoking cigarettes FIRST and
if there was leftover energy or money MAYBE her children got a crumb. So my
prejudice against mothers who enjoy saying "no" is real and personal.
And without anyone knowing a bit about the realities of my upbringing, I have
come to know dozens of families in which "no" is saved for dangerous
situations, and even then the answers are loving explanations, not "NO,
because I'm the mom," or "No because I said so."
-=-The argument seems to be that her
needs are ultimately more important than mine, so I should
consistently ignore my needs whenever she claims to have a
desire that she feels I should. I don't feel that's a healthy
dynamic. -=-
My daughter didn't create me. I decided to have a baby. I knew how, and I
did what it took. I didn't prevent it. I owe her. She doesn't owe me
diddly. [I know there are arguments to the contrary from Christian belief in
God's will, and in New Age theories that children choose their parents, but
I'm talking now of what I believe and what I base my decisions on.]
My parents used us as servants sometimes. It was tacky. I'm not going to do
that.
The needs of any two year old are real. They're hungry or afraid or sleepy
FOR REAL. It's not a mental construct or a decision they're making. They're
not able to wait very well or very long. And so the need of a two year old
is vital to that child. And that child's health and wellbeing are vital to
the mother because if the baby is messed up it's more work in the longrun
than just seeing to the child's needs while they're immediate and small.
A parent taking all their rights at the expense of the happiness of a child
they created is way more unhealthy than selfless compassion and a generosity
of spirit could ever, ever be.
-=- That does seem like a rather
subjective objection to the use of the word no, though. It is,
nevertheless, a very useful word for all kinds of tricky situations.
-=-
Sure. When other people are critical of or make mean fun of my kids I
quickly say "NO, don't do that. If I wanted them treated that way I would
send them to school."
Subjective objections are not sinful or wrong. Objective discussions can be
uninformed discussions. If there's anyone who was NEVER harmed by the word
no, perhaps the first people they should be listening to are those who were.
Sandra
Joseph Fuerst
Some parents
has many other equally ridiculous ideas IMO.
Susan
> feel virtuous saying no. One guy (Someone might remember who, somecolumnist
> or parenting-advice guy?) says if you don't say "no" at least five times aa
> day, and if you don't say "no" more often than you say "yes," you're being
> bad parent. (Anyone know what I'm failing to remember? Maybe I don'thave
> it quite right.)I believe it was the one and only John Rosemond who gave that advice. He
>
> Sandra
>
has many other equally ridiculous ideas IMO.
Susan
kayb85
> I have seen this thread before, and I never quite believe it. Imean -
> NEVER saying no??I think that you can never do it all. Sometimes you HAVE to say no.
My daughter wants to do girl scouts and go on certain field trips
with our homeschool group, so I had to take an afternoon to do
planning for those things. She wanted me to do stuff with her that
afternoon, so I told her, "I'm sorry, but I have to make these calls
to arrange these trips".
She wants to play soccer and go to girl scout day camp and she wanted
friends over today and she wants to do flat travelers and have a pen
pal. So today while her friends were over I did my house work and
then when they left we worked on flat traveler stuff awhile. Then I
had to sit down and work on stuff for the next day--packing lunches,
writing out orders for their soccer fundraiser, signing permission
slips, etc. and she wanted me to play a game with her. Again, the
answer had to be no because you have soccer and girl scouts tomorrow
and if you want to go to them, I have to do these things.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/02 10:59:53 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< Again, the
answer had to be no because you have soccer and girl scouts tomorrow
and if you want to go to them, I have to do these things. >>
If she's in on the priorities and decision making, then you didn't just tell
her no, she helped you decide what would have to go by the wayside.
That's very different from a parent just saying no.
I think there are two levels of this discussion going, with some people being
very literal about the word "no" and others thinking it means you always give
your kids whatever they ask for as soon as they do.
Sandra
<< Again, the
answer had to be no because you have soccer and girl scouts tomorrow
and if you want to go to them, I have to do these things. >>
If she's in on the priorities and decision making, then you didn't just tell
her no, she helped you decide what would have to go by the wayside.
That's very different from a parent just saying no.
I think there are two levels of this discussion going, with some people being
very literal about the word "no" and others thinking it means you always give
your kids whatever they ask for as soon as they do.
Sandra