saying NO
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/02 8:49:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I think in my house, it is important that our children learn no and learn
how to handle the no's. >>
I would have agreed with you not too long ago. No can do now! Here's the
problem with no...it does not lead to creative thinking, it shuts doors
without a continued dialogue.
I think the most important thing when my children want something (often it's
not got anything to do with cost) is helping them figure out creative ways to
do it.
Maybe there is an obstacle in the path right now that prevent us from doing
said activity today, that's where the later comes in.
And I agree that following up and making it true is very, very important.
Later should not mean no.
If there is something they want to do that we don't have the money for, we
can write it down and start putting money in our "family fun jar". If it is
an item I truly can not afford, I help them figure out ways to creatively
attain said item. There is barter, selling used items and a number of other
ways a person could acheive the things they truly want.
Sometimes when there is an obstacle and we dialogue, they decide it wasn't
that important all on their own.
No shuts doors. Let's figure out how to do that opens doors.
If the desirable outcome is going to hurt another person, then it's fairly
easy to point out the other side of it and come up with an alternate
situation that would appease the desire and not harm or upset another person.
My kids know that I will try to figure out ways to help all of us attain the
things we desire. This often means they have to work for goals or get
creative with their time and money, I don't see how that could ever be a bad
thing.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I think in my house, it is important that our children learn no and learn
how to handle the no's. >>
I would have agreed with you not too long ago. No can do now! Here's the
problem with no...it does not lead to creative thinking, it shuts doors
without a continued dialogue.
I think the most important thing when my children want something (often it's
not got anything to do with cost) is helping them figure out creative ways to
do it.
Maybe there is an obstacle in the path right now that prevent us from doing
said activity today, that's where the later comes in.
And I agree that following up and making it true is very, very important.
Later should not mean no.
If there is something they want to do that we don't have the money for, we
can write it down and start putting money in our "family fun jar". If it is
an item I truly can not afford, I help them figure out ways to creatively
attain said item. There is barter, selling used items and a number of other
ways a person could acheive the things they truly want.
Sometimes when there is an obstacle and we dialogue, they decide it wasn't
that important all on their own.
No shuts doors. Let's figure out how to do that opens doors.
If the desirable outcome is going to hurt another person, then it's fairly
easy to point out the other side of it and come up with an alternate
situation that would appease the desire and not harm or upset another person.
My kids know that I will try to figure out ways to help all of us attain the
things we desire. This often means they have to work for goals or get
creative with their time and money, I don't see how that could ever be a bad
thing.
Ren
[email protected]
My mother in law said in these words years ago "You need to frustrate them
so they'll learn how to deal with frustration."
Right... so THAT is why she was so mean to her kids! For their own good!
There frustration naturally occuring in the world. I don't need to create
any so they can practice.
They might get broken bones someday too, but breaking their fingers for them
now so they'll learn to deal with bigger broken bones someday makes NO sense.
It just adds more pain to potential pain.
Creating frustration adds more frustration to more-than-likely
much-frustration.
Modelling "yes" teaches them to be kind and helpful. Modelling "no" doesn't
add joy or trust or hope or compassion.
Sandra
so they'll learn how to deal with frustration."
Right... so THAT is why she was so mean to her kids! For their own good!
There frustration naturally occuring in the world. I don't need to create
any so they can practice.
They might get broken bones someday too, but breaking their fingers for them
now so they'll learn to deal with bigger broken bones someday makes NO sense.
It just adds more pain to potential pain.
Creating frustration adds more frustration to more-than-likely
much-frustration.
Modelling "yes" teaches them to be kind and helpful. Modelling "no" doesn't
add joy or trust or hope or compassion.
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>My kids know that I will try to figure out ways to help all of us attainI agree totally. But, there are still no's that in our house our children
>the
>things we desire. This often means they have to work for goals or get
>creative with their time and money, I don't see how that could ever be a
>bad
>thing.
>
>Ren
have to learn to deal with. Whether it is something that costs way too much
that just isn't worth it. And yes I do know what toys are worth it and what
my kids will really play with. After 4 of them, I know all the ins and outs
of what looks good and what really is fun. But at the same time they do have
their own money and my no means no I won't but you can save and get it. And
sometimes they have and found out that it wasn't worth it at all. Then there
are just no's as to what the rules are in this house and what you can do and
what you can't. I guess it's just a matter of what works for different
families. At the same time, we are very careful to not say no to things
before we think about it.
Mary B
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Mary Bianco
No one said to frustrate the kids. But yes you can have the dessert you want
when you want it and yes I will buy you this even though you don't really
need it and yes you can stay up late if you want and yes you can go swimming
even though it's thundering just aren't getting it in this house. That's
hardly comparable to breaking someone's finger when they might break a bone
someday anyway. I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don't
really like what I see. We all have them to deal with and if they are
comparable to age, I don't see a problem with them at all.
Again, that's my husband and me and our kids in our house.
Mary B.
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when you want it and yes I will buy you this even though you don't really
need it and yes you can stay up late if you want and yes you can go swimming
even though it's thundering just aren't getting it in this house. That's
hardly comparable to breaking someone's finger when they might break a bone
someday anyway. I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don't
really like what I see. We all have them to deal with and if they are
comparable to age, I don't see a problem with them at all.
Again, that's my husband and me and our kids in our house.
Mary B.
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[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/2002 11:28:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummyone24@... writes:
I don't have many "no's" in my life. I just don't set myself up for them. I
may have problems to solve (as Ren pointed out), but RARELY am I beset with
"no's". I don't set my children up for a bunch of "no's" either!
If I can't afford a new pair of jeans, I won't go looking at them---I'll wait
until the day after payday. I just don't GO places where I'll be tempted.
If I don't have the money, we don't go "window shoppping". If I can't afford
a bunch of junk from the grocery store, the boys stay home---but I'll always
bring them Reese's or M&Ms home.
Children who are not allowed anything are always wanting----wanting more than
just material things too. Attention-starved children would much rather have
their parents' attention, but will make do with "stuff" if they can. THOSE
are the children I think you're referring to. They're ASKING their parents
for something because they want the love and attention. Children who are
"smothered" in attention and love and generosity and kindness don't show that
"neediness" that you're seeing.
You might want to look at it in a different way: WHAT are they crying for
---those kids that you say always hear "yes"?
Mine don't cry for either.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummyone24@... writes:
> I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don'tBut Mary B, THOSE kids aren't told "yes" for the same reasons.
> really like what I see. We all have them to deal with and if they are
> comparable to age, I don't see a problem with them at all.
>
I don't have many "no's" in my life. I just don't set myself up for them. I
may have problems to solve (as Ren pointed out), but RARELY am I beset with
"no's". I don't set my children up for a bunch of "no's" either!
If I can't afford a new pair of jeans, I won't go looking at them---I'll wait
until the day after payday. I just don't GO places where I'll be tempted.
If I don't have the money, we don't go "window shoppping". If I can't afford
a bunch of junk from the grocery store, the boys stay home---but I'll always
bring them Reese's or M&Ms home.
Children who are not allowed anything are always wanting----wanting more than
just material things too. Attention-starved children would much rather have
their parents' attention, but will make do with "stuff" if they can. THOSE
are the children I think you're referring to. They're ASKING their parents
for something because they want the love and attention. Children who are
"smothered" in attention and love and generosity and kindness don't show that
"neediness" that you're seeing.
You might want to look at it in a different way: WHAT are they crying for
---those kids that you say always hear "yes"?
Mine don't cry for either.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>No one said to frustrate the kids. But yes you can have the dessert youSo what do you think would happen if your kids could have dessert when they
>>want when you want it and yes I will buy you this even though you don't
>>really need it and yes you can stay up late if you want and yes you can go
>>swimming even though it's thundering just aren't getting it in this
>>house.>>
chose to? Or stayed up later than "bedtime"? Or got something just because
they wanted to check it out, but didn't really need it? Those are all things
I get to choose for myself, and I'm a pretty okay person I think. My kids
too. They get to make those kinds of choices all the time. They've learned
to make some pretty good choices for themselves, their bodies and their
family. We've all made mistakes along the way, but that's part of the
learning process.
The question about being out in a thunderstorm has come up here many times.
We get some wicked lightning here in the west. My answer is not "No you
can't go swimming". It's more like "Lightning is dangerous, especially if
you're in the water. Let's wait till it stops to get back in the pool." My
kids have become accustomed to me working with them to get to what they
want. They're pretty reasonable about waiting. Maybe it's semantics, but
maybe it's about being mindful of how we speak to our kids.
>>I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don'treally like what I see.>>
What kind of things are you seeing? I like yes better than no and think my
kids are pretty reasonable people. They're also pretty good at taking other
people's feelings into consideration. They like to find ways to surprise and
please their friends and family. I like what I'm seeing.
>>We all have them to deal with and if they are comparable to age, I don'tBut too many times we put roadblocks up for our kids that don't really need
>>see a problem with them at all.>>
to be there. It's not comparable to age. It's what adults had done to them
and think they need to do to their kids. We've all broken out of the idea of
school being one of those things kids just "have to" endure. What about all
those other no's that seem so necessary for good character development?
Maybe they are also worth examining.
>>Again, that's my husband and me and our kids in our house.>>We all do what we think is best for our family. Sometimes it helps to look
at our srongly held beliefs though. I've tweaked a few of mine over the
years and my kids have been my best teachers.
Life is good.
~Mary
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[email protected]
<< I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don't
really like what I see. >>
If you've decided you've seen plenty, I guess you don't want to see mine or
those I know well. You'd be impressed.
<<No one said to frustrate the kids.>>
Yes. My mother-in-law did. Lots of "experts" have. Homeschoolers sometimes
do. Even if the exact phrase doesn't appear, the sentiment does.
<<But yes you can have the dessert you want
when you want it >>
We don't "do" dessert. My kids can have whatever food they want when they
want it, and they not only don't abuse the privilege, they rarely eat candy
or cookies at all. I threw some cookies away yesterday for just being too
old.
<<yes you can stay up late if you want >>
My kids don't have bedtimes, but I got up this morning and the house was
dark, the computers were turned off, the animals had been fed, and three
teenaged boys were in bed.
There are some principles which don't change from family to family, but are
true of humans in general. And I truly believe that too much "no" destroys
the happiness that can be between parent and child. I'm positive that ALL of
us know dozens of people who heard too much NO for every one who MAYBE didn't
hear it enough.
Sandra
really like what I see. >>
If you've decided you've seen plenty, I guess you don't want to see mine or
those I know well. You'd be impressed.
<<No one said to frustrate the kids.>>
Yes. My mother-in-law did. Lots of "experts" have. Homeschoolers sometimes
do. Even if the exact phrase doesn't appear, the sentiment does.
<<But yes you can have the dessert you want
when you want it >>
We don't "do" dessert. My kids can have whatever food they want when they
want it, and they not only don't abuse the privilege, they rarely eat candy
or cookies at all. I threw some cookies away yesterday for just being too
old.
<<yes you can stay up late if you want >>
My kids don't have bedtimes, but I got up this morning and the house was
dark, the computers were turned off, the animals had been fed, and three
teenaged boys were in bed.
There are some principles which don't change from family to family, but are
true of humans in general. And I truly believe that too much "no" destroys
the happiness that can be between parent and child. I'm positive that ALL of
us know dozens of people who heard too much NO for every one who MAYBE didn't
hear it enough.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>>Children who are not allowed anything are always wanting----wanting moreThis is such a good point. I lost a previous post in cyber-space somewhere
>>than just material things too. Attention-starved children would much
>>rather have their parents' attention, but will make do with "stuff" if
>>they can. THOSE are the children I think you're referring to.>>
:-( in which I talked about saying yes with our time and attention. When I
say yes it's not just about material goods. My kids aren't really outrageous
in their requests. I also say yes to being and doing with my kids. Yes we
can make that, yes I'll watch that video with you, yes you can create goop
in the kitchen, yes I'll play Baries or legos or whatever.....
Life is good.
~Mary
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Leslie Avery
I don't think it is so much not saying no as to why
you are saying it. If you are saying it to protect
maybe, but if you are saying it more than yes than
maybe it is control and not protection. Such was the
case in my house.
I was brought up to believe if you had control over
your kids you were a good parent. Well, that only
works so long. When you have them home 24 hours a day
the whole dynamic changes and eventually the control
thing doesn't work. No don't put your feet on the
furniture, no don't eat before dinner (even though you
maybe hungry), no don't watch that no don't do this.
You have to find another way to deal with the family
and that way is pure and simple treat your children
like people and like you like to be treated. Give
them the same control over their lives as you want
over yours and the no will gradually decrease and the
yes will gradually increase.
I find if I have to say no to explain to them why I am
saying no. It is not lack of saying no that causes
kids to be mean it is lack of respect and lack of
attention and lack of unconditional love.
Leslie
--- Mary Bianco <mummyone24@...> wrote:
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you are saying it. If you are saying it to protect
maybe, but if you are saying it more than yes than
maybe it is control and not protection. Such was the
case in my house.
I was brought up to believe if you had control over
your kids you were a good parent. Well, that only
works so long. When you have them home 24 hours a day
the whole dynamic changes and eventually the control
thing doesn't work. No don't put your feet on the
furniture, no don't eat before dinner (even though you
maybe hungry), no don't watch that no don't do this.
You have to find another way to deal with the family
and that way is pure and simple treat your children
like people and like you like to be treated. Give
them the same control over their lives as you want
over yours and the no will gradually decrease and the
yes will gradually increase.
I find if I have to say no to explain to them why I am
saying no. It is not lack of saying no that causes
kids to be mean it is lack of respect and lack of
attention and lack of unconditional love.
Leslie
--- Mary Bianco <mummyone24@...> wrote:
> No one said to frustrate the kids. But yes you can_________________________________________________________________
> have the dessert you want
> when you want it and yes I will buy you this even
> though you don't really
> need it and yes you can stay up late if you want and
> yes you can go swimming
> even though it's thundering just aren't getting it
> in this house. That's
> hardly comparable to breaking someone's finger when
> they might break a bone
> someday anyway. I've seen plenty of kids who never
> get the no's and don't
> really like what I see. We all have them to deal
> with and if they are
> comparable to age, I don't see a problem with them
> at all.
>
> Again, that's my husband and me and our kids in our
> house.
>
> Mary B.
>
>
>
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print__________________________________________________
> your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
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zenmomma *
>>I agree totally. But, there are still no's that in our house our childrenSo you've learned from experience. From trial and error. I think our kids
>>have to learn to deal with. Whether it is something that costs way too
>>much that just isn't worth it. And yes I do know what toys are worth it
>>and what my kids will really play with. After 4 of them, I know all the
>>ins and outs of what looks good and what really is fun.>>
benefit from learning these things too.
My kids have become pretty savvy consumers after a few trials with buying
crap. They're pretty good at spotting advertising gimmicks and trendy toys.
And sometimes I'm not the best one to determine (for them) what is crap
anyway. The things I think are dumb might get played with a lot. The kids
find some use in it that I couldn't see.
I was thinking, I say yes to my kids and yet they still don't ask for all
that much. Maybe it's like the lottery. If kids are used to getting 15 no's
for every yes, they just keep playing the game to get to the one time they
get the yes. My kids don't have to play that game. They truly don't ask for
much "stuff".
Life is good.
~Mary
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[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/02 1:20:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< . And yes I do know what toys are worth it
have many adult friends that agree on what constitutes a "quality" item for
every child.
Some of the "quality" items bore my kids to death. And some of the schlocky
stuff that I wouldn't touch they have enjoyed.
The schlocky stuff that breaks easily is a great lesson in consumer awareness.
If I had controlled everything my kids bought, or even a large portion of it,
I don't think they'd be the savvy consumers they are.
Think of it like this, how much money will a person spend on curriculum to
teach a lesson?
The "curriculum" I use is totally hands-on, uses real money, involves
real-life math, product comparison and gives AMAZING results. The cost for
this "curriculum?"
Well, it's hard to say, because it varies according to budget and so
on....but I bet I spend less by giving my kids money and access than
many,many homeschoolers do on prepackaged curriculum.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< . And yes I do know what toys are worth it
>>and what my kids will really play with. After 4 of them, I know all theShouldn't they get to decide on their own what is worth it or not? I don't
>>ins and outs of what looks good and what really is fun.>>
>>
have many adult friends that agree on what constitutes a "quality" item for
every child.
Some of the "quality" items bore my kids to death. And some of the schlocky
stuff that I wouldn't touch they have enjoyed.
The schlocky stuff that breaks easily is a great lesson in consumer awareness.
If I had controlled everything my kids bought, or even a large portion of it,
I don't think they'd be the savvy consumers they are.
Think of it like this, how much money will a person spend on curriculum to
teach a lesson?
The "curriculum" I use is totally hands-on, uses real money, involves
real-life math, product comparison and gives AMAZING results. The cost for
this "curriculum?"
Well, it's hard to say, because it varies according to budget and so
on....but I bet I spend less by giving my kids money and access than
many,many homeschoolers do on prepackaged curriculum.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/02 1:20:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids have become pretty savvy consumers after a few trials with buying
crap. >>
I stole your word Mary!! I think I subconsciously copied you...sorry. :)
Savvy is such a great word to describe these unschooled, experienced,
intelligent individuals!
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids have become pretty savvy consumers after a few trials with buying
crap. >>
I stole your word Mary!! I think I subconsciously copied you...sorry. :)
Savvy is such a great word to describe these unschooled, experienced,
intelligent individuals!
Ren
Mary Bianco
>In a message dated 9/5/2002 11:28:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,Well neither one of us could really say what those reasons are.
>mummyone24@... writes:
> > I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don't
> > really like what I see. We all have them to deal with and if they are
> > comparable to age, I don't see a problem with them at all.
>But Mary B, THOSE kids aren't told "yes" for the same reasons.
>Children who are not allowed anything are always wanting----wanting moreYes you are right but I do know of children, as far as I can see that do get
>than
>just material things too. Attention-starved children would much rather have
>their parents' attention, but will make do with "stuff" if they can.
attention and love but always want the stuff too. When they always get it
they get use to wanting it and having it. Not all kids and certainly I can't
understand the circumstances surrounding it all either. I just can't say no
to ALL no's.
Mary B
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Mary Bianco
<< I've seen plenty of kids who never get the no's and don't
delightful.
<<No one said to frustrate the kids.>>
Mary B
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>really like what I see. >>Plenty certainly in no way means all or even most. I'm sure your kids are
>If you've decided you've seen plenty, I guess you don't want to see mine or
>those I know well. You'd be impressed.
delightful.
<<No one said to frustrate the kids.>>
>I meant no one on this list regarding this post.
>Yes. My mother-in-law did. Lots of "experts" have.
Mary B
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Robyn Coburn
<<Some of the "quality" items bore my kids to death. And some of the
schlocky
stuff that I wouldn't touch they have enjoyed.
The schlocky stuff that breaks easily is a great lesson in consumer
awareness.>>
Some of my daughter's (2 1/2) favorite things to play with are fast food
toys, especially ones that are figures of some kind. They all get mixed
up together in one "universe". 2nd favorite - vehicles. Actually these
things are remarkably durable, and sometimes they are beautiful too -
remember the Madame Alexander dolls from McD earlier this year? Jayn is
always asking me to make a story about ..(lists dolls names)...which she
then takes over after only a few words. And you don't have to buy the
"food" to buy the toys at the drive-through windows.
Robyn Coburn
schlocky
stuff that I wouldn't touch they have enjoyed.
The schlocky stuff that breaks easily is a great lesson in consumer
awareness.>>
Some of my daughter's (2 1/2) favorite things to play with are fast food
toys, especially ones that are figures of some kind. They all get mixed
up together in one "universe". 2nd favorite - vehicles. Actually these
things are remarkably durable, and sometimes they are beautiful too -
remember the Madame Alexander dolls from McD earlier this year? Jayn is
always asking me to make a story about ..(lists dolls names)...which she
then takes over after only a few words. And you don't have to buy the
"food" to buy the toys at the drive-through windows.
Robyn Coburn
Mary Bianco
>So what do you think would happen if your kids could have dessert when theyWell we really don't have a set bedtime here NOW and my kids get to eat
>chose to? Or stayed up later than "bedtime"? Or got something just because
>they wanted to check it out, but didn't really need it?
desserts pretty much when they want NOW and they spend their own money on
what they want. But the 2 year old doesn't get to stay up when she wants and
has to take a nap if she doesn't want, at least sometimes and she doesn't
get to consume a half a bag of MM's either. And when dinner is just 30
minutes away, the others are told no to having a snack. And my 16 year old
does have a curfew and is told no to staying out until 3 in the morning. The
no's here always come with an explanation. But when it's thundering and the
kids would want to go out, I give the same explanation you do, the no just
comes first. I don't see a big deal in saying no at certain times. I've said
it plenty to my teenager and lucky for us all, she has learned to say it
pretty often herself. <BG>
Mary B
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Mary Bianco
>Shouldn't they get to decide on their own what is worth it or not? I don'tI've actually been right on the money in knowing what my kids will enjoy and
>have many adult friends that agree on what constitutes a "quality" item for
>every child.
>Some of the "quality" items bore my kids to death. And some of the schlocky
>stuff that I wouldn't touch they have enjoyed.
>The schlocky stuff that breaks easily is a great lesson in consumer
>awareness.
>If I had controlled everything my kids bought, or even a large portion of
>it,
>I don't think they'd be the savvy consumers they are.
play with. I know my kids very well. And yes it is sometimes goofy stuff but
that doesn't mean they won't enjoy it. And sometimes the really great
looking stuff is crap. I'm just saying that I KNOW this by now. And when
they were younger, we chose things together and yes they did find out for
themselves the hard way sometimes. But also when they were younger I let
them choose when I knew better, they didn't remember the lesson and we were
stuck with wasted money on things no one really wanted. So at cetain ages I
make the choices or should I say guide their choices so no one blasts me as
being controlling. I don't control everything they buy past a certain age
and now they are savvy consumers too. I just can't see letting a 2 year old
have the same choices my 7 year old has. I'm sure someone will say why not
but it just doesn't make good sense to me in my house with my kids.
Mary B
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zenmomma *
>>Think of it like this, how much money will a person spend on curriculum toThe "curriculum" I use is totally hands-on, uses real money, involves
>>teach a lesson?
real-life math, product comparison and gives AMAZING results.>>
I like this Ren. So this week we're using the Changing Rooms/Hamtarro
curriculum. ;-)
Life is good.
~Mary
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zenmomma *
>>the no just comes first. I don't see a big deal in saying no at certainI guess I just like the feeling of a yes. I've also found it works both
>>times.>>
ways, they say yes to me a lot too.
Life is good.
~Mary
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In a message dated 9/5/02 4:36:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I don't control everything they buy past a certain age
and now they are savvy consumers too. >>
I certainly am not trying to point a finger at you and yell 'control freak"
or anything Mary, I hope you aren't taking it that way. It's just that
sometimes unless another person questions certain practices, it comes across
as if we all agree.
I don't.
If your kids are savvy consumers then why would you feel a need to tell them
no about anything?
I also agree that you must take into account a child's age, there are
different levels of safety and guidance needed for different stages, no one
is arguing that.
But first you said that you know exactly what your kids will want and enjoy,
but if that's true, why would they feel a need to ask for anything that isn't
up to your standard?
I think that's hypocritical to say you KNOW everything they will play with
long term and enjoy but also say they have choice in what they buy.
I don't think parent's know everything about their kids, we are good judges
of them hopefully, but people change constantly. What a child would find
wonderful at one point in their lives they will feel differently about later.
I would hate to have my dh telling me that something I wanted wasn't good
enough to spend money on. I don't think that means you shouldn't dialogue
with them about the benefits/cost and so on. But if you're making the final
say and telling us you know what is best for your kids at every turn and
you're always right about the items the buy...well, that I don't believe.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I don't control everything they buy past a certain age
and now they are savvy consumers too. >>
I certainly am not trying to point a finger at you and yell 'control freak"
or anything Mary, I hope you aren't taking it that way. It's just that
sometimes unless another person questions certain practices, it comes across
as if we all agree.
I don't.
If your kids are savvy consumers then why would you feel a need to tell them
no about anything?
I also agree that you must take into account a child's age, there are
different levels of safety and guidance needed for different stages, no one
is arguing that.
But first you said that you know exactly what your kids will want and enjoy,
but if that's true, why would they feel a need to ask for anything that isn't
up to your standard?
I think that's hypocritical to say you KNOW everything they will play with
long term and enjoy but also say they have choice in what they buy.
I don't think parent's know everything about their kids, we are good judges
of them hopefully, but people change constantly. What a child would find
wonderful at one point in their lives they will feel differently about later.
I would hate to have my dh telling me that something I wanted wasn't good
enough to spend money on. I don't think that means you shouldn't dialogue
with them about the benefits/cost and so on. But if you're making the final
say and telling us you know what is best for your kids at every turn and
you're always right about the items the buy...well, that I don't believe.
Ren
Mary Bianco
>I certainly am not trying to point a finger at you and yell 'control freak"I cetainly would never expect people to agree on most things let alone
>or anything Mary, I hope you aren't taking it that way. It's just that
>sometimes unless another person questions certain practices, it comes
>across
>as if we all agree.
>I don't.
family life. I just find it hard here to have people question what I haven't
asked for when I'm totally comfortable with it. Not meaning you in this
case. A good discussion about what works for others and what their
experiences are is one thing. Questioning what works for one family is
something else. Again not you, I'm being general here. Just finding that one
small statement from me has gotten so big. And okay, I do like the last
word!!!
>If your kids are savvy consumers then why would you feel a need to tellThe no's directed at them was before when they were younger. I did know what
>them
>no about anything?>>
they liked and saw them spend money on things very disappointing. At that
time, they didn't learn and would go for the same kind of stuff the next
time. I would remind them about the lesson from before and in my way say no,
without saying ""no you can't have it." At the same time, being prepared to
actually say no if they insisted. I can probably think of one or two times
when that happened between the two kids I'm speaking of. I stood my ground
because it was important to me and they forgot all about it when they found
something else. To me, that no wasn't damaging.
>But first you said that you know exactly what your kids will want andWell I don't know where that came from!! Yes I said I know my kids and what
>enjoy,
>but if that's true, why would they feel a need to ask for anything that
>isn't
>up to your standard?
>I think that's hypocritical to say you KNOW everything they will play with
>long term and enjoy but also say they have choice in what they buy.
>I don't think parent's know everything about their kids, we are good judges
>of them hopefully, but people change constantly. What a child would find
>wonderful at one point in their lives they will feel differently about
>later.
>I would hate to have my dh telling me that something I wanted wasn't good
>enough to spend money on. I don't think that means you shouldn't dialogue
>with them about the benefits/cost and so on. But if you're making the final
>say and telling us you know what is best for your kids at every turn and
>you're always right about the items the buy...well, that I don't believe.
>
>Ren
they like and yes I do know what will be played with and what won't. I'm
talking about my 6 and 7 year olds. There is a point where that will all
change. So long term, I think not. I just know how to help guide them in
their choices. And no I don't make the final say on things now. When they
were younger, yes I did. Hasn't seemed to hurt them any.
As far as them asking for things that aren't up to my standards, you totally
lost me on that one. I have no "standards" it's just I know junk when I see
it! And now, those two children do too as well as the older one. The baby
will learn in her time.
Mary B
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[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/02 7:29:12 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
Always? I could eat bags and it wouldn't do that to ME! so how do you know
that will happen to your two y.o......you don't.
If it did, I imagine after a few times, the two y.o. won't want M&M's quite
so often.
Children are intelligent, capable beings and can even figure out what they
like to eat.
Choices, choices, choices...that is the key.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
>What are the consequences of eating a bag of m&m's?Some major diarrhea and a very sore butt. >>
Always? I could eat bags and it wouldn't do that to ME! so how do you know
that will happen to your two y.o......you don't.
If it did, I imagine after a few times, the two y.o. won't want M&M's quite
so often.
Children are intelligent, capable beings and can even figure out what they
like to eat.
Choices, choices, choices...that is the key.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/02 7:29:12 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I have no "standards" it's just I know junk when I see
it! >>
Wouldn't you agree that if you label something "Junk" that is some kind of
standard?
I use a LOT of "junk" in my art. Glad no one decides what is junk or good but
me.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I have no "standards" it's just I know junk when I see
it! >>
Wouldn't you agree that if you label something "Junk" that is some kind of
standard?
I use a LOT of "junk" in my art. Glad no one decides what is junk or good but
me.
Ren
Mary Bianco
>Always? I could eat bags and it wouldn't do that to ME! so how do you knowWell it's not really fair for you to tell me what I know about my own kids
>that will happen to your two y.o......you don't.
is it? I DO know that this will happen because it has. Not with a bag of
MM's but with too much of any kind of chocolate. And yes I'm the one that
decides what is too much from experience.
>If it did, I imagine after a few times, the two y.o. won't want M&M's quiteThere is no doubt that after a few times of my baby doing this, she would
>so often.
>Children are intelligent, capable beings and can even figure out what they
>like to eat.
>Choices, choices, choices...that is the key.
>
>Ren
stop going overboard. But you know what? Once was more than enough of seeing
what the poor thing went through. So if I have to say no to that and save
her the pain and discomfort, I have no problem with that at all. And that in
itself is a choice also.
Mary B
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Mary Bianco
><< I have no "standards" it's just I know junk when I seeWell by knowing junk when I see it, I mean crap that doesn't work and breaks
> it! >>
>Wouldn't you agree that if you label something "Junk" that is some kind of
>standard?
>I use a LOT of "junk" in my art. Glad no one decides what is junk or good
>but
>me.
>
>Ren
as soon as it's put together. My son hates Hot Wheels stuff for that very
reason. That we all learned by doing and none of us will go that route
again. If that's a standard then so be it. And as far as your junk goes, I'm
sure it makes beautiful artwork.
Mary B
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[email protected]
I guess I would ask why a kid would have to learn about frugal shopping
in one "lesson". We don't expect our babies to talk in full sentences
when they utter their first sound, or run like gazelles when they first
pull themselves to their feet. Why would a child be expected to know all
the secrets of smart shopping and getting a good deal after one or two
unhappy purchases?
And why would a child need to learn exactly the parents idea of a good
buy or a right toy. Why isn't that a thing a person can figure out for
themselves? Why would my husbands idea of the kind of shoes I should
wear, for instance, be somehow more right than my own? . ( he would pick
pointy, spikey, hooker shoes and I choose leather-free birks... so there
ya go.)
I think if we can trust that kids will learn to read and write and
understand math just through exposure and experimenting and experience,
we could trust that same learning process when it comes to smart shopping
and healthy food choices and hygiene and all of life, really.
I've recently had this discussion with someone else, so it's been on my
mind some.
My son is ten. He's a really nice boy, helpful and kind and generous.
He takes good care of himself and looks after our critters. He's never
had a bed time or TV or game restrictions or food restrictions. If he
wants cookies right before dinner he's welcome to them. Only he can know
how hungry he is or whether he can comfortably wait until the food is
ready. He stays up late some nights and always takes care of things
before going to bed, lets the dogs out one more time, brushes his teeth,
turns off the lights, etc. He's healthy. He's never had a cavity. He's
not over weight.
Today we were shopping in another town. We live in a rural area where
there's no real shopping and trips to another town come when we can
afford the gas and have a good reason to go. Dylan had $40.00 with him
that he's been saving. We went to Wal-mart, K-mart, the mall... he
didn't spend any of his money. He looked at dinosaurs and Lord of the
Ring toys, he looked at Harry Potter stuff and Legos and games for his
Gameboy and Playstation. He didn't find anything he wanted to spend his
money on. We've never told him how to shop, or what to buy. Yes, he's
made some choices that he was unhappy with later but then so have I. He
knew I had limited funds today and offered his money if I needed it.
( all together now, aawwhhh.)
We believe in the power of yes. Yes you can eat that, yes you can watch
that, yes you can stay up late, it all translates into yes we believe you
are smart and responsible and good. And he is. (did I mention he's also
cute?<g>)
This is more discussion on a topic that you're probably tired of, but
it's been on my mind lately how some unschoolers believe in natural
learning as it applies to academics but not as it applies to life. I'm
not sure how we can logically separate the two.
Deb L, pondering Mary's no's. (nose?) over a little too much beer
obviously...
in one "lesson". We don't expect our babies to talk in full sentences
when they utter their first sound, or run like gazelles when they first
pull themselves to their feet. Why would a child be expected to know all
the secrets of smart shopping and getting a good deal after one or two
unhappy purchases?
And why would a child need to learn exactly the parents idea of a good
buy or a right toy. Why isn't that a thing a person can figure out for
themselves? Why would my husbands idea of the kind of shoes I should
wear, for instance, be somehow more right than my own? . ( he would pick
pointy, spikey, hooker shoes and I choose leather-free birks... so there
ya go.)
I think if we can trust that kids will learn to read and write and
understand math just through exposure and experimenting and experience,
we could trust that same learning process when it comes to smart shopping
and healthy food choices and hygiene and all of life, really.
I've recently had this discussion with someone else, so it's been on my
mind some.
My son is ten. He's a really nice boy, helpful and kind and generous.
He takes good care of himself and looks after our critters. He's never
had a bed time or TV or game restrictions or food restrictions. If he
wants cookies right before dinner he's welcome to them. Only he can know
how hungry he is or whether he can comfortably wait until the food is
ready. He stays up late some nights and always takes care of things
before going to bed, lets the dogs out one more time, brushes his teeth,
turns off the lights, etc. He's healthy. He's never had a cavity. He's
not over weight.
Today we were shopping in another town. We live in a rural area where
there's no real shopping and trips to another town come when we can
afford the gas and have a good reason to go. Dylan had $40.00 with him
that he's been saving. We went to Wal-mart, K-mart, the mall... he
didn't spend any of his money. He looked at dinosaurs and Lord of the
Ring toys, he looked at Harry Potter stuff and Legos and games for his
Gameboy and Playstation. He didn't find anything he wanted to spend his
money on. We've never told him how to shop, or what to buy. Yes, he's
made some choices that he was unhappy with later but then so have I. He
knew I had limited funds today and offered his money if I needed it.
( all together now, aawwhhh.)
We believe in the power of yes. Yes you can eat that, yes you can watch
that, yes you can stay up late, it all translates into yes we believe you
are smart and responsible and good. And he is. (did I mention he's also
cute?<g>)
This is more discussion on a topic that you're probably tired of, but
it's been on my mind lately how some unschoolers believe in natural
learning as it applies to academics but not as it applies to life. I'm
not sure how we can logically separate the two.
Deb L, pondering Mary's no's. (nose?) over a little too much beer
obviously...
Mary Bianco
>We believe in the power of yes. Yes you can eat that, yes you can watchI understand your post completely Deb, beer or no beer!!! I believe in the
>that, yes you can stay up late, it all translates into yes we believe you
>are smart and responsible and good. And he is. (did I mention he's also
>cute?<g>)
power of yes too. And now we have no set bedtimes, although the little one
gets like a bear if I wait too long so once again I set a limit without
really saying so to her. It works for us.
The kids pretty much do eat what they want when they want it unless once
again I'm cooking something special for a family dinner and I tell them to
wait. And I don't actually say no, I tell them it's almost time for dinner,
can't they wait. The answer is always yes.
They watch TV feely and play games freely and now buy stuff they want and
many times come home with nothing. It's been years since a toy has been
bought and set aside because it's not what they thought. I just don't see
why they would have to buy things more than a few times when once or twice
of me redirecting them gets the same end result. Again it has worked for us.
I believe it's perfectly fine to try things differently depending on the
family and I also believe that many times we can end up with the same result
with many different ways of getting there.
My children are also incredible. They're thoughtful, understanding, kind,
honest, responsible, happy healthy kids. And pretty darn cute themselves.
Once again I just see what works here for us. And one really never knows
exactly what goes on in someone else's life. We're not all perfect and
neither our the kids. We all do the best we can and when we know better,
hopefully, we do better.
Mary B
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Bill and Diane
I agree with this, too, up to a point. But it's also important to
remember that reality gives plenty of no's so the parents don't really
have to supplement them.
:-) Diane
remember that reality gives plenty of no's so the parents don't really
have to supplement them.
:-) Diane
><< I think in my house, it is important that our children learn no and learn
> how to handle the no's. >>
>
Fetteroll
on 9/5/02 4:03 PM, Mary Bianco at mummyone24@... wrote:
your children's advocate. It's a mental shift from being their guardian to
being their companion in their journey through life.
Unless you have problems with what you're doing, this mental shift won't
make much sense and the discussion will probably seem pointless. Why
*should* anyone stop doing what works?
(One reason might be that it's always healthy to question our certainty! ;-)
*Maybe* as the discussions come up again, you might see something in your
family dynamic that you'd been unconscioulsy uncomfortable with but had just
accepted as the way things are and you'll say "Oh, that's why that's
happening!"
But until/unless that happens it won't make sense for you to go beyond "You
do what works for you and I'll do what works for me."
modeled for us. We may see a certain method of parenting and like or not
like the results but observation often only gets us the surface. We can't
see and understand the dynamics of the whole situation.
Being able to dig beneath the surface is one of the valuable things I've
found among this group of people. (It's also one of the things that makes
some people uncomfortable with this list too!) I think the discussions often
come off as "My way's right and your way's wrong." That isn't the intent.
(And I suspect there are eyes rolling at that ;-) The intent is to help
people question why they're doing what they're doing. The discussion helps
people get beyond "This is what works for me." (And especially if "this"
involves control then the practice *will* get discussed! ;-) If someone
does't want to question why they do something, then it's best not to bring
something up.
here love to discuss *and* have the last word ;-) It's like holding up a bag
of Oreos and then saying no one can even ask to have some ;-) Basically
anything brought to the list becomes fodder for discussion.
Joyce
> I don't have aWell, the discussion isn't really about saying yes or no. It's about being
> problem with saying no as long as it's not more than once in awhile.
your children's advocate. It's a mental shift from being their guardian to
being their companion in their journey through life.
Unless you have problems with what you're doing, this mental shift won't
make much sense and the discussion will probably seem pointless. Why
*should* anyone stop doing what works?
(One reason might be that it's always healthy to question our certainty! ;-)
*Maybe* as the discussions come up again, you might see something in your
family dynamic that you'd been unconscioulsy uncomfortable with but had just
accepted as the way things are and you'll say "Oh, that's why that's
happening!"
But until/unless that happens it won't make sense for you to go beyond "You
do what works for you and I'll do what works for me."
> Yes you are right but I do know of children, as far as I can see that do getObservation is one of the ways we learn to parent beyond what our parents
> attention and love but always want the stuff too.
modeled for us. We may see a certain method of parenting and like or not
like the results but observation often only gets us the surface. We can't
see and understand the dynamics of the whole situation.
Being able to dig beneath the surface is one of the valuable things I've
found among this group of people. (It's also one of the things that makes
some people uncomfortable with this list too!) I think the discussions often
come off as "My way's right and your way's wrong." That isn't the intent.
(And I suspect there are eyes rolling at that ;-) The intent is to help
people question why they're doing what they're doing. The discussion helps
people get beyond "This is what works for me." (And especially if "this"
involves control then the practice *will* get discussed! ;-) If someone
does't want to question why they do something, then it's best not to bring
something up.
> Questioning what works for one family isWell, you won't be able to offer tantalizing family dynamics that the people
> something else. Again not you, I'm being general here. Just finding that one
> small statement from me has gotten so big. And okay, I do like the last
> word!!!
here love to discuss *and* have the last word ;-) It's like holding up a bag
of Oreos and then saying no one can even ask to have some ;-) Basically
anything brought to the list becomes fodder for discussion.
Joyce
Bill and Diane
I thought about unit studies. I decided we're doing unit studies
here--that last exactly as long as we want them to. I was at the
doctor's office the other day with dh, and the nurse asked why my 2 and
4 year olds weren't in school. I said "Thay're BABIES!" She said "My
4-year-old is in kindergarten." I thought later I should have said
"We're doing a unit study on the healthcare industry right now."
:-) Diane
here--that last exactly as long as we want them to. I was at the
doctor's office the other day with dh, and the nurse asked why my 2 and
4 year olds weren't in school. I said "Thay're BABIES!" She said "My
4-year-old is in kindergarten." I thought later I should have said
"We're doing a unit study on the healthcare industry right now."
:-) Diane
>>>
>The "curriculum" I use is totally hands-on, uses real money, involves
>real-life math, product comparison and gives AMAZING results.>>
>
>I like this Ren. So this week we're using the Changing Rooms/Hamtarro
>curriculum. ;-)
>