Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Another newbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/3/02 12:55:11 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Tuck@...
writes:
year old boy. We live in Shawnee, Kansas.
I've been lurking for awhile but couldn't let this thread go by without
commenting.
I thought "I" was the only person who had experienced the above behavior!
Glad to know it's not just my imagination and that others have had similar
experiences!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Golly! I thought I was the only one who noticed this!!!Hi! My name is Beth Allen. I'm currently homeschooling/unschooling my 10
>
> OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play at
> play day?
>
> Tuck
>
year old boy. We live in Shawnee, Kansas.
I've been lurking for awhile but couldn't let this thread go by without
commenting.
I thought "I" was the only person who had experienced the above behavior!
Glad to know it's not just my imagination and that others have had similar
experiences!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/3/02 8:03:26 AM Central Daylight Time, eba7009@...
writes:
~Nancy ~~~Waving at you from Topeka!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Hi! My name is Beth Allen. I'm currently homeschooling/unschooling my 10Ohh! A Kansan! Welcome Beth!
> year old boy. We live in Shawnee, Kansas.
~Nancy ~~~Waving at you from Topeka!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Burton Bunch
I have been unschooling for just about two years now - homeschooling overall for three. I started off with unit studies and when I heard myself sounding like the horrible teacher at the PS we pulled the kids out of --- I knew I had to change!! I am a highly organized - structured - if the directions say so...type of person. I am thrilled with my ongoing transformation into the unschooling way of life! I organize the pantry - alphabetize my CD'S etc. when I feel those moments of "structure panic" coming on (it's getting easier every day!). I am the co-editor and person to contact for "new to HS packets" (catalogs of curriculums, etc.) for our local HS newsletter. I am finding it increasingly difficult to answer questions of those wanting to begin the HS experience without scaring the crap out of them with my talk of unschooling. :0)
I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just getting their feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I unschool, but being available to answer other questions too without sounding phony - because that is truly how I feel when I talk about using the pre- packaged, workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling makes perfect sense and I get frustrated when people just don't seem to get it. I remember just starting out though and if all I heard about (at the time) was unschooling...I may have been too afraid to even try homeschooling. For me it was a voyage of self discovery and time spent with the kids showing me the way. I struggle with scaring people off before they have the chance to experience what I get to everyday. Any advice?
Another newbie -
Jin in Idaho
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just getting their feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I unschool, but being available to answer other questions too without sounding phony - because that is truly how I feel when I talk about using the pre- packaged, workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling makes perfect sense and I get frustrated when people just don't seem to get it. I remember just starting out though and if all I heard about (at the time) was unschooling...I may have been too afraid to even try homeschooling. For me it was a voyage of self discovery and time spent with the kids showing me the way. I struggle with scaring people off before they have the chance to experience what I get to everyday. Any advice?
Another newbie -
Jin in Idaho
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/2003 12:52:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
livnrway@... writes:
I'd have to quit! I couldn't spend one minute encouraging someone to try A
Beka or Charlotte Mason. Couldn't, wouldn't, shouldn't!
Maybe just be the person they come to if they ARE interested in unschooling?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
livnrway@... writes:
> I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just getting theirThere's nobody else who wants the job?
> feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I unschool, but
> being available to answer other questions too without sounding phony -
> because that is truly how I feel when I talk about using the pre- packaged,
> workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling makes perfect sense and I get
> frustrated when people just don't seem to get it. I remember just
> starting out though and if all I heard about (at the time) was
> unschooling...I may have been too afraid to even try homeschooling. For me
> it was a voyage of self discovery and time spent with the kids showing me
> the way. I struggle with scaring people off before they have the chance to
> experience what I get to everyday. Any advice?
>
I'd have to quit! I couldn't spend one minute encouraging someone to try A
Beka or Charlotte Mason. Couldn't, wouldn't, shouldn't!
Maybe just be the person they come to if they ARE interested in unschooling?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Burton Bunch
Right now there is no one. When I first began homeschooling there was one group in our area -- very narrow minded and unwilling to share much in the way of support. A friend and I began a new newsletter/support group and while we are growing everyday, it is still a small group with not many willing to speak up about their style, beliefs, etc. We both moved from larger areas into these small towns and found it frustrating to find involvement -- this was our purpose for striking out on our own. I would love to have it be "just come to me if you want to talk unschooling..." but there is no one else willing to do the rest - that puts it right back where it was when I got here.
----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Another newbie
In a message dated 4/6/2003 12:52:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
livnrway@... writes:
> I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just getting their
> feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I unschool, but
> being available to answer other questions too without sounding phony -
> because that is truly how I feel when I talk about using the pre- packaged,
> workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling makes perfect sense and I get
> frustrated when people just don't seem to get it. I remember just
> starting out though and if all I heard about (at the time) was
> unschooling...I may have been too afraid to even try homeschooling. For me
> it was a voyage of self discovery and time spent with the kids showing me
> the way. I struggle with scaring people off before they have the chance to
> experience what I get to everyday. Any advice?
>
There's nobody else who wants the job?
I'd have to quit! I couldn't spend one minute encouraging someone to try A
Beka or Charlotte Mason. Couldn't, wouldn't, shouldn't!
Maybe just be the person they come to if they ARE interested in unschooling?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "The Burton Bunch" <livnrway@...>
<<I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just getting
their feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I unschool, but
being available to answer other questions too without sounding phony -
because that is truly how I feel when I talk about using the pre- packaged,
workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling makes perfect sense and I get
frustrated when people just don't seem to get it. I remember just starting
out though and if all I heard about (at the time) was unschooling...I may
have been too afraid to even try homeschooling. For me it was a voyage of
self discovery and time spent with the kids showing me the way. I struggle
with scaring people off before they have the chance to experience what I get
to everyday. Any advice?>>
Just as we try and put ourselves in our childrens place when they run into
adversity, maybe you can remember those days long ago when you just started.
Remember how excited or maybe scared you were to start on this strange new
journey. Remember that everyone isn't going to unschool or even homeschool
the way you started out. Just starting to homeschool is hopefully a step in
the right direction. Take it slow and try not to overwhelm. I say that
because I do it. I happen to be very passionate about how I parent. I have a
tendency to make peoples eyes glaze over too when it comes up. All I need is
a little hint of someone needing help or changing or asking a question and
I'm off. I've actually had my husband nudge me to cool it when I go off on a
rant. I just need to understand that if it's someone in person that really
wants information, I can be of more help to them by taking it slower and
understanding that they aren't in my place. At least just yet!!!!
Of course if it's a fly by night kind of meeting, then all bets are off. I
go for it!
Mary B
<<I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just getting
their feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I unschool, but
being available to answer other questions too without sounding phony -
because that is truly how I feel when I talk about using the pre- packaged,
workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling makes perfect sense and I get
frustrated when people just don't seem to get it. I remember just starting
out though and if all I heard about (at the time) was unschooling...I may
have been too afraid to even try homeschooling. For me it was a voyage of
self discovery and time spent with the kids showing me the way. I struggle
with scaring people off before they have the chance to experience what I get
to everyday. Any advice?>>
Just as we try and put ourselves in our childrens place when they run into
adversity, maybe you can remember those days long ago when you just started.
Remember how excited or maybe scared you were to start on this strange new
journey. Remember that everyone isn't going to unschool or even homeschool
the way you started out. Just starting to homeschool is hopefully a step in
the right direction. Take it slow and try not to overwhelm. I say that
because I do it. I happen to be very passionate about how I parent. I have a
tendency to make peoples eyes glaze over too when it comes up. All I need is
a little hint of someone needing help or changing or asking a question and
I'm off. I've actually had my husband nudge me to cool it when I go off on a
rant. I just need to understand that if it's someone in person that really
wants information, I can be of more help to them by taking it slower and
understanding that they aren't in my place. At least just yet!!!!
Of course if it's a fly by night kind of meeting, then all bets are off. I
go for it!
Mary B
Tia Leschke
> Right now there is no one. When I first began homeschooling there was onegroup in our area -- very narrow minded and unwilling to share much in the
way of support. A friend and I began a new newsletter/support group and
while we are growing everyday, it is still a small group with not many
willing to speak up about their style, beliefs, etc. We both moved from
larger areas into these small towns and found it frustrating to find
involvement -- this was our purpose for striking out on our own. I would
love to have it be "just come to me if you want to talk unschooling..." but
there is no one else willing to do the rest - that puts it right back where
it was when I got here.
I've had that "job". I talk about a continuum, from school at home to
unschooling, how everyone fits somewhere on that continuum, and that people
often change their position after they've done it for a while. I tell them
that I'm at the unschooling end. Then if people have questions about
curriculum and such, I direct them to websites and other resources rather
than recommending anything myself.
Tia
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Pamela Sorooshian
THIS is such a good question. It depends on your purpose, I think.
For myself, I've always been fascinated by all the different
curriculums out there - so I know a lot about them (especially math)
and so it is natural that people ask me about them. That is my own
personal difficulty - that people want me to help them evaluate math
curriculum. It isn't like they are all created equal - there are some
that are MUCH more harmful than others, imo. So - I try to be
goodnatured about it - I can't make myself withhold information, so I
do give my opinions, but I constantly (albeit gently) remind them that
they don't NEED it at all. AND, when I give my "official" math talks, I
refuse to recommend any math curriculum at all because I am
specifically talking about unschooling math at those times.
Others here will say that they couldn't in good conscience help people
find curriculum materials - that it would be wrong, against what they
really believe is good for kids. I agree with that - but think that if
I can get someone to stop using textbooks and try some unit studies
that THAT is a good step for them and so I feel okay about helping them
do that as long as I can get a chance to point out that they don't have
to DO that either.
-pam
For myself, I've always been fascinated by all the different
curriculums out there - so I know a lot about them (especially math)
and so it is natural that people ask me about them. That is my own
personal difficulty - that people want me to help them evaluate math
curriculum. It isn't like they are all created equal - there are some
that are MUCH more harmful than others, imo. So - I try to be
goodnatured about it - I can't make myself withhold information, so I
do give my opinions, but I constantly (albeit gently) remind them that
they don't NEED it at all. AND, when I give my "official" math talks, I
refuse to recommend any math curriculum at all because I am
specifically talking about unschooling math at those times.
Others here will say that they couldn't in good conscience help people
find curriculum materials - that it would be wrong, against what they
really believe is good for kids. I agree with that - but think that if
I can get someone to stop using textbooks and try some unit studies
that THAT is a good step for them and so I feel okay about helping them
do that as long as I can get a chance to point out that they don't have
to DO that either.
-pam
On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 09:49 AM, The Burton Bunch wrote:
> I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just
> getting their feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I
> unschool, but being available to answer other questions too without
> sounding phony - because that is truly how I feel when I talk about
> using the pre- packaged, workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling
> makes perfect sense and I get frustrated when people just don't seem
> to get it. I remember just starting out though and if all I heard
> about (at the time) was unschooling...I may have been too afraid to
> even try homeschooling. For me it was a voyage of self discovery and
> time spent with the kids showing me the way. I struggle with scaring
> people off before they have the chance to experience what I get to
> everyday. Any advice?
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/03 1:11:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
where they can read more etc. And you could answer the unschooly types of
questions and someone else could be there to answer the curriculum types of
questions. Not everyone will want to look at unschooling. And it is
difficult to answer questions on a topic you know little about. But with the
right other person it could be a nice team.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> . I struggle with scaring people off before they have the chance toOr maybe there could be two people who do this. Present the information and
> >experience what I get to everyday. Any advice?
> >
>
> There's nobody else who wants the job?
>
> I'd have to quit! I couldn't spend one minute encouraging someone to try A
> Beka or Charlotte Mason. Couldn't, wouldn't, shouldn't!
>
> Maybe just be the person they come to if they ARE interested in
> unschooling?
>
>
where they can read more etc. And you could answer the unschooly types of
questions and someone else could be there to answer the curriculum types of
questions. Not everyone will want to look at unschooling. And it is
difficult to answer questions on a topic you know little about. But with the
right other person it could be a nice team.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Burton Bunch
Thanks this has been very helpful!
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Another newbie
THIS is such a good question. It depends on your purpose, I think.
For myself, I've always been fascinated by all the different
curriculums out there - so I know a lot about them (especially math)
and so it is natural that people ask me about them. That is my own
personal difficulty - that people want me to help them evaluate math
curriculum. It isn't like they are all created equal - there are some
that are MUCH more harmful than others, imo. So - I try to be
goodnatured about it - I can't make myself withhold information, so I
do give my opinions, but I constantly (albeit gently) remind them that
they don't NEED it at all. AND, when I give my "official" math talks, I
refuse to recommend any math curriculum at all because I am
specifically talking about unschooling math at those times.
Others here will say that they couldn't in good conscience help people
find curriculum materials - that it would be wrong, against what they
really believe is good for kids. I agree with that - but think that if
I can get someone to stop using textbooks and try some unit studies
that THAT is a good step for them and so I feel okay about helping them
do that as long as I can get a chance to point out that they don't have
to DO that either.
-pam
On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 09:49 AM, The Burton Bunch wrote:
> I guess my question here is how to continue helping those just
> getting their feet wet with homeschooling - - letting them know that I
> unschool, but being available to answer other questions too without
> sounding phony - because that is truly how I feel when I talk about
> using the pre- packaged, workbooks, unit studies, etc. Unschooling
> makes perfect sense and I get frustrated when people just don't seem
> to get it. I remember just starting out though and if all I heard
> about (at the time) was unschooling...I may have been too afraid to
> even try homeschooling. For me it was a voyage of self discovery and
> time spent with the kids showing me the way. I struggle with scaring
> people off before they have the chance to experience what I get to
> everyday. Any advice?
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/03 10:53:04 AM, livnrway@... writes:
<< I am the co-editor and person to contact for "new to HS packets" (catalogs
of curriculums, etc.) for our local HS newsletter. I am finding it
increasingly difficult to answer questions of those wanting to begin the HS
experience without scaring the crap out of them with my talk of unschooling.
:0) >>
For years I was one of the only local contact people here, and I would refer
people to other places if they wanted to use structure. There's a bookstore
here that sells used homeschooling materials, and that was a great place to
send people.
For years I had an unschooling group, at first with another family, and
eventually they wandered away and it was just us and from five to fifteen
other families, depending on the season and year. Not all the families were
unschoolers, but since it was clearly called an unschooling group, they kept
the curriculum talk down, and kids played, and parents socialized and played,
and we had fun.
My boys got to old to want to be in a group, and were tired of it. Holly was
still fairly young, 8 or 9, when another group started in town with lots of
kids. I used to take her, and then I started letting her arrange to go with
other families if she wanted to, but I have a hard time going. I only go
once in a great while.
Here's why:
People want to talk to me. They want to take me aside and sit down and say
my kids are SO wonderful and they want their kids to be like mine, but their
kids just won't do their math, or as soon as their kids can read well enough
to learn on their own, they might think about considering unschooling too.
My choices at that point are to smile and nod and think about England until
they're through talking or to talk about unschooling.
If I do the former, I'm being dishonest. I think there's nothing to smile
and nod about if people want me to coo and agree that gosh darn, it IS hard
to make kids do math. Because I've never made kids do math, and I don't want
to start. I think they're wasting their own time and their children's joy by
doing it. They've gone to an inclusive group meeting and not an unschooling
meeting.
If I do the latter, I'm spending twenty minutes of time I could have been
hanging around with Holly or talking to people I've known for years about
other teenged homeschoolers I've known since they first left school. THAT
would be okay, but I invariably am asked to talk to someone individually.
If my choice is being dishonest or honest, I'm going to be honest.
If my choice is to be at peace or stressed, I'm going with peace, so I'd
rather stay home.
But if my choice is being useful or pissing my time away, I'd rather be
useful.
So it's better for me to write where I can leave things for people to come
back to. It's better for me to only be involved with clearly-delineated
unschooling sites and activities, and put no effort into helping people learn
about what curriculum to buy, or how to inspire kids to like workbooks, or
how to design unit studies. I cannot in good conscience help someone do
something I don't think is good for their kids or for their relationship with
their kids.
I don't feel guilty about not going to the playgroup (which is not just a
playgroup, though they call it that), because I've totally done my time for
years and years, locally. I maintain the local mailing list and I still get
phone calls and e-mail every week or two for having been listed as local
contact years ago and in paper publications people still come across.
As much as people would like for me to reassure them about something I don't
believe in, I think if I did that my advice would be compromised and my
integrity be impaired.
Some people are willing to say things they don't believe. I'm not.
Sandra
<< I am the co-editor and person to contact for "new to HS packets" (catalogs
of curriculums, etc.) for our local HS newsletter. I am finding it
increasingly difficult to answer questions of those wanting to begin the HS
experience without scaring the crap out of them with my talk of unschooling.
:0) >>
For years I was one of the only local contact people here, and I would refer
people to other places if they wanted to use structure. There's a bookstore
here that sells used homeschooling materials, and that was a great place to
send people.
For years I had an unschooling group, at first with another family, and
eventually they wandered away and it was just us and from five to fifteen
other families, depending on the season and year. Not all the families were
unschoolers, but since it was clearly called an unschooling group, they kept
the curriculum talk down, and kids played, and parents socialized and played,
and we had fun.
My boys got to old to want to be in a group, and were tired of it. Holly was
still fairly young, 8 or 9, when another group started in town with lots of
kids. I used to take her, and then I started letting her arrange to go with
other families if she wanted to, but I have a hard time going. I only go
once in a great while.
Here's why:
People want to talk to me. They want to take me aside and sit down and say
my kids are SO wonderful and they want their kids to be like mine, but their
kids just won't do their math, or as soon as their kids can read well enough
to learn on their own, they might think about considering unschooling too.
My choices at that point are to smile and nod and think about England until
they're through talking or to talk about unschooling.
If I do the former, I'm being dishonest. I think there's nothing to smile
and nod about if people want me to coo and agree that gosh darn, it IS hard
to make kids do math. Because I've never made kids do math, and I don't want
to start. I think they're wasting their own time and their children's joy by
doing it. They've gone to an inclusive group meeting and not an unschooling
meeting.
If I do the latter, I'm spending twenty minutes of time I could have been
hanging around with Holly or talking to people I've known for years about
other teenged homeschoolers I've known since they first left school. THAT
would be okay, but I invariably am asked to talk to someone individually.
If my choice is being dishonest or honest, I'm going to be honest.
If my choice is to be at peace or stressed, I'm going with peace, so I'd
rather stay home.
But if my choice is being useful or pissing my time away, I'd rather be
useful.
So it's better for me to write where I can leave things for people to come
back to. It's better for me to only be involved with clearly-delineated
unschooling sites and activities, and put no effort into helping people learn
about what curriculum to buy, or how to inspire kids to like workbooks, or
how to design unit studies. I cannot in good conscience help someone do
something I don't think is good for their kids or for their relationship with
their kids.
I don't feel guilty about not going to the playgroup (which is not just a
playgroup, though they call it that), because I've totally done my time for
years and years, locally. I maintain the local mailing list and I still get
phone calls and e-mail every week or two for having been listed as local
contact years ago and in paper publications people still come across.
As much as people would like for me to reassure them about something I don't
believe in, I think if I did that my advice would be compromised and my
integrity be impaired.
Some people are willing to say things they don't believe. I'm not.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/03 11:51:06 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< For myself, I've always been fascinated by all the different
curriculums out there - so I know a lot about them (especially math)
and so it is natural that people ask me about them. That is my own
personal difficulty - that people want me to help them evaluate math
curriculum. It isn't like they are all created equal - there are some
that are MUCH more harmful than others, imo. So - I try to be
goodnatured about it - I can't make myself withhold information, so I
do give my opinions, but I constantly (albeit gently) remind them that
they don't NEED it at all. >>
I used to do that too. At first I looked at the various things so I'd know
what people were talking about, and after talking to some local person I
could recommend which they should definitely avoid, at least, and could
converse with them about the differences and what was good for Catholics or
Protestants and what was good for none-of-the-above, and what Clonlara might
be good for in their lives, or Oak Meadow.
But too many times people said later "I wish I had never spent any money on a
curriculum." So I started at that point after a while, and said, "First,
don't spend ANY money on formal materials."
And once that was my first advice, I quit caring what was what. I was
recommending the avoidance of all of it.
Sandra
<< For myself, I've always been fascinated by all the different
curriculums out there - so I know a lot about them (especially math)
and so it is natural that people ask me about them. That is my own
personal difficulty - that people want me to help them evaluate math
curriculum. It isn't like they are all created equal - there are some
that are MUCH more harmful than others, imo. So - I try to be
goodnatured about it - I can't make myself withhold information, so I
do give my opinions, but I constantly (albeit gently) remind them that
they don't NEED it at all. >>
I used to do that too. At first I looked at the various things so I'd know
what people were talking about, and after talking to some local person I
could recommend which they should definitely avoid, at least, and could
converse with them about the differences and what was good for Catholics or
Protestants and what was good for none-of-the-above, and what Clonlara might
be good for in their lives, or Oak Meadow.
But too many times people said later "I wish I had never spent any money on a
curriculum." So I started at that point after a while, and said, "First,
don't spend ANY money on formal materials."
And once that was my first advice, I quit caring what was what. I was
recommending the avoidance of all of it.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
>>>I cannot in good conscience help someone dosomething I don't think is good for their kids or for their relationship with
their kids.<<<
This seems to be THE biggest reason people have trouble switching to unschooling. For most relaxed homeschoolers/eclectics who like the idea of unschooling, imposed school structure doesn't seem like a bad thing, if its only done in very small amounts and combined with large amounts of freedom outside of those very small amounts.
Is there any research that shows that imposed structure, even in SMALL amounts is also not good for kids?
I've read Holt, but I got the impression from his books that he was talking about "all day" kinds of structure. I've also read the Teen Lib Handbook, but even in there, it sounds like she is referring to kids who have *already* learned basic skills like basic arithmetic, etc. that should "quit school and get a real education".
Any other reading suggestions?
Thanks,
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/03 2:47:36 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< Is there any research that shows that imposed structure, even in SMALL
amounts is also not good for kids? >>
Research takes money. To whose advantage would it be to prove that school
and even school supplies and methods are harmful? Nobody will pay for that.
Most "school research" is crap designed to defend federal spending programs
anyway.
<<I've read Holt, but I got the impression from his books that he was talking
about "all day" kinds of structure. I've also read the Teen Lib Handbook,
but even in there, it sounds like she is referring to kids who have *already*
learned basic skills like basic arithmetic, etc. that should "quit school and
get a real education".>>
Holt was a teacher, not a parent, and never had kids. He had gone a long way
from being a teacher, but hadn't come as far as some have since.
The Teenage Liberation Handbook is also written by someone with no kids, who
went to school.
<<Any other reading suggestions?>>
www.unschooling.com
The Homeschool Book of Answers.
The Unschooling Handbook.
Sandra
<< Is there any research that shows that imposed structure, even in SMALL
amounts is also not good for kids? >>
Research takes money. To whose advantage would it be to prove that school
and even school supplies and methods are harmful? Nobody will pay for that.
Most "school research" is crap designed to defend federal spending programs
anyway.
<<I've read Holt, but I got the impression from his books that he was talking
about "all day" kinds of structure. I've also read the Teen Lib Handbook,
but even in there, it sounds like she is referring to kids who have *already*
learned basic skills like basic arithmetic, etc. that should "quit school and
get a real education".>>
Holt was a teacher, not a parent, and never had kids. He had gone a long way
from being a teacher, but hadn't come as far as some have since.
The Teenage Liberation Handbook is also written by someone with no kids, who
went to school.
<<Any other reading suggestions?>>
www.unschooling.com
The Homeschool Book of Answers.
The Unschooling Handbook.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
<< Is there any research that shows that imposed structure, even in SMALL
amounts is also not good for kids? >>
Good point.
I'm glad you said that. It helps me put Holt into perspective with "unschooling". so many think of Holt as the founder of unschooling. But I from what you are saying, and its probably true: Unschooling is bigger than Holt.
True.
<<Any other reading suggestions?>>
www.unschooling.com
The Homeschool Book of Answers.
The Unschooling Handbook.
Thanks.
Kristen
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
amounts is also not good for kids? >>
>>>Research takes money. To whose advantage would it be to prove that schooland even school supplies and methods are harmful? Nobody will pay for that.<<<<
Good point.
>>>>Holt was a teacher, not a parent, and never had kids. He had gone a long wayfrom being a teacher, but hadn't come as far as some have since.<<<
I'm glad you said that. It helps me put Holt into perspective with "unschooling". so many think of Holt as the founder of unschooling. But I from what you are saying, and its probably true: Unschooling is bigger than Holt.
>>>The Teenage Liberation Handbook is also written by someone with no kids, whowent to school.<<<
True.
<<Any other reading suggestions?>>
www.unschooling.com
The Homeschool Book of Answers.
The Unschooling Handbook.
Thanks.
Kristen
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
Sandra wrote:
People want to talk to me. They want to take me aside and sit down and
say
my kids are SO wonderful and they want their kids to be like mine, but
their
kids just won't do their math, or as soon as their kids can read well
enough
to learn on their own, they might think about considering unschooling
too.
Angela:
And people say "I could never do what you do, I can't even get my kids
to do their homework/chores (insert any word that people make kids do)!"
And I tell them that I don't *make* my kids do anything. And they come
back with "but my kids would sit in front of the TV all day and never do
anything *constructive*" and I tell them that kids who have anything
limited will be drawn to that thing when the limits are taken off. And
then they say "but not my kids, I know my kids." And then I don't have
an answer because I really only know my kids. ( and all of your kids)
Sandra wrote: My choices at that point are to smile and nod and think
about England until
they're through talking or to talk about unschooling.
Angela:
And so when we get to the point in the conversation when they say, "but
not my kids", I sometimes do end up smiling, nodding, and thinking about
England because they don't seem to get it and I don't know how to
respond. How do you respond at that point Sandra? It does feel dishonest
to not to take the conversation to the next step. Recently, I used a
phrase which seemed to serve me well. I prefaced my statement with
..."but unschoolers would say that is because...", which made me feel
like I wasn't being so critical of them.
Any other ideas are welcomed.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
People want to talk to me. They want to take me aside and sit down and
say
my kids are SO wonderful and they want their kids to be like mine, but
their
kids just won't do their math, or as soon as their kids can read well
enough
to learn on their own, they might think about considering unschooling
too.
Angela:
And people say "I could never do what you do, I can't even get my kids
to do their homework/chores (insert any word that people make kids do)!"
And I tell them that I don't *make* my kids do anything. And they come
back with "but my kids would sit in front of the TV all day and never do
anything *constructive*" and I tell them that kids who have anything
limited will be drawn to that thing when the limits are taken off. And
then they say "but not my kids, I know my kids." And then I don't have
an answer because I really only know my kids. ( and all of your kids)
Sandra wrote: My choices at that point are to smile and nod and think
about England until
they're through talking or to talk about unschooling.
Angela:
And so when we get to the point in the conversation when they say, "but
not my kids", I sometimes do end up smiling, nodding, and thinking about
England because they don't seem to get it and I don't know how to
respond. How do you respond at that point Sandra? It does feel dishonest
to not to take the conversation to the next step. Recently, I used a
phrase which seemed to serve me well. I prefaced my statement with
..."but unschoolers would say that is because...", which made me feel
like I wasn't being so critical of them.
Any other ideas are welcomed.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/03 3:54:41 PM, unschooling@... writes:
<< My choices at that point are to smile and nod and think
about England >>
That should have been "think of England."
Not "about," though it's more what I would have been doing.
That's traditionally reported as Victorian-era advice to new brides on their
wedding night, or to women doing their conjugal duty (in England)--just lie
back and think of England.
-=-How do you respond at that point Sandra? It does feel dishonest
to not to take the conversation to the next step. -=-
I say that it doesn't fit what we grew up hearing, and that people who
haven't tried it don't think it will work, but lots have and found it to work
great.
Sandra
<< My choices at that point are to smile and nod and think
about England >>
That should have been "think of England."
Not "about," though it's more what I would have been doing.
That's traditionally reported as Victorian-era advice to new brides on their
wedding night, or to women doing their conjugal duty (in England)--just lie
back and think of England.
-=-How do you respond at that point Sandra? It does feel dishonest
to not to take the conversation to the next step. -=-
I say that it doesn't fit what we grew up hearing, and that people who
haven't tried it don't think it will work, but lots have and found it to work
great.
Sandra
Betsy
**People want to talk to me. They want to take me aside and sit down
and say my kids are SO wonderful and they want their kids to be like
mine, but their kids just won't do their math, or as soon as their kids
can read well enough to learn on their own, they might think about
considering unschooling too.**
I know you didn't ask for advice, but there's something about other
people's issues that gets the brainstorming juices flowing. (And
anything posted is fair game for free advice, I suppose.)
In situations like this, where the semi-structured homeschooler is
burned out and venting to you, it might be worthwhile to say "Yes,
forcing someone to do something (lessons) IS exhausting. And it puts a
lot of hostility and stress into you relationship."
Unfortunately the conversation can't just stop there. You are right
that the ability online to make one's point and then disengage is valuable.
Betsy
PS Park day is the highlight of our week, so for me foregoing park day
sounds almost as tragic as foregoing television. <g>
and say my kids are SO wonderful and they want their kids to be like
mine, but their kids just won't do their math, or as soon as their kids
can read well enough to learn on their own, they might think about
considering unschooling too.**
I know you didn't ask for advice, but there's something about other
people's issues that gets the brainstorming juices flowing. (And
anything posted is fair game for free advice, I suppose.)
In situations like this, where the semi-structured homeschooler is
burned out and venting to you, it might be worthwhile to say "Yes,
forcing someone to do something (lessons) IS exhausting. And it puts a
lot of hostility and stress into you relationship."
Unfortunately the conversation can't just stop there. You are right
that the ability online to make one's point and then disengage is valuable.
Betsy
PS Park day is the highlight of our week, so for me foregoing park day
sounds almost as tragic as foregoing television. <g>
Angela
That's interesting. I didn't realize the statement had a background.
So are they suppose to be thinking about how what they are doing will
benefit England in the long run even if they don't find it beneficial
themselves?
Angela ~ who hopes to make it to England one day and can't imagine
thinking of sex as a duty.
;0)
That should have been "think of England."
Not "about," though it's more what I would have been doing.
That's traditionally reported as Victorian-era advice to new brides on
their
wedding night, or to women doing their conjugal duty (in England)--just
lie
back and think of England.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So are they suppose to be thinking about how what they are doing will
benefit England in the long run even if they don't find it beneficial
themselves?
Angela ~ who hopes to make it to England one day and can't imagine
thinking of sex as a duty.
;0)
That should have been "think of England."
Not "about," though it's more what I would have been doing.
That's traditionally reported as Victorian-era advice to new brides on
their
wedding night, or to women doing their conjugal duty (in England)--just
lie
back and think of England.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**it might be worthwhile to say "Yes,
forcing someone to do something (lessons) IS exhausting. And it puts a
lot of hostility and stress into you relationship."**
It's supposed to say "your relationship", not "you relationship".
Oops.
Betsy
forcing someone to do something (lessons) IS exhausting. And it puts a
lot of hostility and stress into you relationship."**
It's supposed to say "your relationship", not "you relationship".
Oops.
Betsy
Betsy
**I have been unschooling for just about two years now - homeschooling
overall for three. I started off with unit studies and when I heard
myself sounding like the horrible teacher at the PS we pulled the kids
out of --- I knew I had to change!! **
I am glad that you are so self-aware that you could see how you were
coming across.
In general, is there any decent way to say to *someone else*, "um,
you're starting to sound like a horrible teacher" ?
**I am finding it increasingly difficult to answer questions of those
wanting to begin the HS experience without scaring the crap out of them
with my talk of unschooling. :0) **
OK, sometimes I know that I'm scary and preachy, too. What's a good way
to tantalize people with unschooling information without scaring them?
(I guess I am just repeating your question in the hopes that "the
collective" here will have some answers.)
Betsy
overall for three. I started off with unit studies and when I heard
myself sounding like the horrible teacher at the PS we pulled the kids
out of --- I knew I had to change!! **
I am glad that you are so self-aware that you could see how you were
coming across.
In general, is there any decent way to say to *someone else*, "um,
you're starting to sound like a horrible teacher" ?
**I am finding it increasingly difficult to answer questions of those
wanting to begin the HS experience without scaring the crap out of them
with my talk of unschooling. :0) **
OK, sometimes I know that I'm scary and preachy, too. What's a good way
to tantalize people with unschooling information without scaring them?
(I guess I am just repeating your question in the hopes that "the
collective" here will have some answers.)
Betsy
Have a Nice Day!
OK, sometimes I know that I'm scary and preachy, too. What's a good way
to tantalize people with unschooling information without scaring them?
(I guess I am just repeating your question in the hopes that "the
collective" here will have some answers.)
<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm wondering that too. I don't dare discuss it with others at work. they would NEVER get it. They don't even understand it now when I discuss some of the things my kids have done and how I've responded to it. And yet they know me and know that I could not possibly be a "permissive parent" too.
I think thats enough of a dichotomy for them to chew on for awhile! LOL
Kristen
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to tantalize people with unschooling information without scaring them?
(I guess I am just repeating your question in the hopes that "the
collective" here will have some answers.)
<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm wondering that too. I don't dare discuss it with others at work. they would NEVER get it. They don't even understand it now when I discuss some of the things my kids have done and how I've responded to it. And yet they know me and know that I could not possibly be a "permissive parent" too.
I think thats enough of a dichotomy for them to chew on for awhile! LOL
Kristen
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/2003 9:21:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
there mere mention of it. It was something we did ascribe to without knowing
there was a name for it, ok maybe we "didn't" do it because you either do or
don't. But a lot of the concepts of unschooling were ones we used bringing
up our children...
Someone sent me an invitation to this group and I started reading and
listening and learning so very much, slowly but hopefully surely I will make
it to where the other wonderful mothers are on this list.
So just mentioning the fact that some parents don't use a curriculum at all
and allow their child's education to be self directed. That I'm sure will
perk up ears and leave them wanting to know more. Even if they don't jump
for it immediately it will give them food for thought, at least it would me
anyway.
Just my opinion though...
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
> OK, sometimes I know that I'm scary and preachy, too. What's a good wayWhat introduced or "tantalized" me to find out more about unschooling was
> to tantalize people with unschooling information without scaring them?
>
there mere mention of it. It was something we did ascribe to without knowing
there was a name for it, ok maybe we "didn't" do it because you either do or
don't. But a lot of the concepts of unschooling were ones we used bringing
up our children...
Someone sent me an invitation to this group and I started reading and
listening and learning so very much, slowly but hopefully surely I will make
it to where the other wonderful mothers are on this list.
So just mentioning the fact that some parents don't use a curriculum at all
and allow their child's education to be self directed. That I'm sure will
perk up ears and leave them wanting to know more. Even if they don't jump
for it immediately it will give them food for thought, at least it would me
anyway.
Just my opinion though...
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 01:45 PM, Have a Nice Day! wrote:
(Not unschooling, but it should be. We introduced him to unschooling
almost a year ago at the Sacramento conference - he went to one of
Sandra's talks. His book is great support for unschooling-all-the-time
<G>.)
-pam
> Any other reading suggestions?The Book of Learning and Forgetting by Frank Smith.
>
(Not unschooling, but it should be. We introduced him to unschooling
almost a year ago at the Sacramento conference - he went to one of
Sandra's talks. His book is great support for unschooling-all-the-time
<G>.)
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/6/03 6:37:34 PM, unschooling@... writes:
<< So are they suppose to be thinking about how what they are doing will
benefit England in the long run even if they don't find it beneficial
themselves? >>
Yep.
Patriotic duty.
Create more brits, or keep soldiers happy, or whatever. <g>
Sandra
<< So are they suppose to be thinking about how what they are doing will
benefit England in the long run even if they don't find it beneficial
themselves? >>
Yep.
Patriotic duty.
Create more brits, or keep soldiers happy, or whatever. <g>
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 07:09 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:
mention that my kids do not follow a curriculum and that I don't make
one up, either <G>.
That is almost always enough to get anybody interested - and asking a
question.
If they don't - I don't guess they have enough curiosity to unschool
anyway! <BEG>
-pam
> So just mentioning the fact that some parents don't use a curriculumThat is exactly what I do -- I just make sure that I get to at least
> at all
> and allow their child's education to be self directed. That I'm sure
> will
> perk up ears and leave them wanting to know more. Even if they don't
> jump
> for it immediately it will give them food for thought, at least it
> would me
> anyway.
mention that my kids do not follow a curriculum and that I don't make
one up, either <G>.
That is almost always enough to get anybody interested - and asking a
question.
If they don't - I don't guess they have enough curiosity to unschool
anyway! <BEG>
-pam
Fetteroll
on 4/6/03 8:52 PM, Betsy at ecsamhill@... wrote:
that no matter what you feel you must do to make your kids learn that there
are unschoolers who aren't doing it and their kids are learning just fine
anyway.
Joyce
> OK, sometimes I know that I'm scary and preachy, too. What's a good wayWhat I tell people on the HEM boards is that it's helpful to keep in mind
> to tantalize people with unschooling information without scaring them?
that no matter what you feel you must do to make your kids learn that there
are unschoolers who aren't doing it and their kids are learning just fine
anyway.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/4/2003 10:28:37 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
his own life that does. What a horrible burden to not want college and know your
parents really want you to go!
He's smart to hate school, it has nothing to do with learning.
And if he figures out that true learning is fun, then college might not be
what he wants ever!! I think you both need to do some major deschooling right
now. Drop the expectations for his life and let him find himself. Unschooling
in HS years is the same as unschooling at any time in your life. You do the
things you LOVE. Follow your interests and your heart and you'll be unschooling.
It sounds like a lot of damage has been done, so he probably needs a lot of
"down" time to just find himself again. Be patient...it may look like he has
zero interest in anything for a while. But healing can happen!
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> My concern now is how to unschool during high school, especially sinceBut what YOU want for his life is not what matters. It's what he wants for
> I'd like to see him in college (he doesn't want to see himself there -
> "hates" school, but I think he'll come around when he sees how much fun
> true learning really is).
his own life that does. What a horrible burden to not want college and know your
parents really want you to go!
He's smart to hate school, it has nothing to do with learning.
And if he figures out that true learning is fun, then college might not be
what he wants ever!! I think you both need to do some major deschooling right
now. Drop the expectations for his life and let him find himself. Unschooling
in HS years is the same as unschooling at any time in your life. You do the
things you LOVE. Follow your interests and your heart and you'll be unschooling.
It sounds like a lot of damage has been done, so he probably needs a lot of
"down" time to just find himself again. Be patient...it may look like he has
zero interest in anything for a while. But healing can happen!
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**He's smart to hate school, it has nothing to do with learning.**
I have to agree with that. I worked hard in school, as an Electrical
Engineering major and good pretty good grades, but when I graduated I
didn't know the material. (Worse, I didn't even like the material at
that point.)
Betsy
I have to agree with that. I worked hard in school, as an Electrical
Engineering major and good pretty good grades, but when I graduated I
didn't know the material. (Worse, I didn't even like the material at
that point.)
Betsy