Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Crunchy granola homeschoolers
[email protected]
On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:12:42 EDT Dnowens@... writes:
and my daughter wears birks, so maybe we qualify... but there's a whole
subset of homeschoolers we've met who are very into Natural and tend to
ban (well, it seems like a ban to me, but they always use nicer terms)
things like plastic toys and "violent" toys and soda and TV and computer
games, and they're the one we know to not even bother inviting to Chuck E
Cheese... and often they're Waldorf-inspired, and they talk in platitudes
and they always sem to be the ones trying to "protect" their children
from certain information... and they sometimes call themselves
unschoolers but it's always unschooling as in "I follow his lead and
teach him the wonderful lovely natural stuff he's showed an interest in
learning" (assuming it's something acceptable like owls or the gold rush
- and even with stuff like that we're only going to cover the "nice"
parts, because we must protect the children).
Their children, IME, often do nasty exclusive stuff ("I'm starting a club
and only girls who are 7 or older can be in it, but not you because your
shoes are weird") when the parents are out of earshot, which always sort
of led me to the conclusion that they were really sick of this fake
perpetual sweetness and light and didn't know any other ways to escape
besides being nasty. They also edge away from kids wearing Simpsons or
Monty Python t shirts.
Perhaps it's a species endemic to northern California... and I have
noticed that it's a lot more prevelant among parents of younger kids, so
it doesn't seem to work in the long term.
dar
> In a message dated 9/2/02 4:59:46 PM Central Daylight Time,are a lot of
> freeform@...
> writes:> > She appeals to the crunchy granola homeschoolers, and there
> > them around here.I saved that recipe, it sounds really good! We buy granola at the coop
> >
> <g> what are the crunchy granola homeschoolers? I thought that was
> what we are.
> ~Nancy who loves her birks and homemade granola
and my daughter wears birks, so maybe we qualify... but there's a whole
subset of homeschoolers we've met who are very into Natural and tend to
ban (well, it seems like a ban to me, but they always use nicer terms)
things like plastic toys and "violent" toys and soda and TV and computer
games, and they're the one we know to not even bother inviting to Chuck E
Cheese... and often they're Waldorf-inspired, and they talk in platitudes
and they always sem to be the ones trying to "protect" their children
from certain information... and they sometimes call themselves
unschoolers but it's always unschooling as in "I follow his lead and
teach him the wonderful lovely natural stuff he's showed an interest in
learning" (assuming it's something acceptable like owls or the gold rush
- and even with stuff like that we're only going to cover the "nice"
parts, because we must protect the children).
Their children, IME, often do nasty exclusive stuff ("I'm starting a club
and only girls who are 7 or older can be in it, but not you because your
shoes are weird") when the parents are out of earshot, which always sort
of led me to the conclusion that they were really sick of this fake
perpetual sweetness and light and didn't know any other ways to escape
besides being nasty. They also edge away from kids wearing Simpsons or
Monty Python t shirts.
Perhaps it's a species endemic to northern California... and I have
noticed that it's a lot more prevelant among parents of younger kids, so
it doesn't seem to work in the long term.
dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/2/02 10:42:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
freeform@... writes:
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freeform@... writes:
> Perhaps it's a species endemic to northern California... and I haveAhhh! We know *those* people too! ;o)
> noticed that it's a lot more prevelant among parents of younger kids, so
> it doesn't seem to work in the long term.
>
> dar
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KT
>Golly! I thought I was the only one who noticed this!!!
>
>Their children, IME, often do nasty exclusive stuff ("I'm starting a club
>and only girls who are 7 or older can be in it, but not you because your
>shoes are weird") when the parents are out of earshot, which always sort
>of led me to the conclusion that they were really sick of this fake
>perpetual sweetness and light and didn't know any other ways to escape
>besides being nasty. They also edge away from kids wearing Simpsons or
>Monty Python t shirts.
>
OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play at
play day?
Tuck
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/3/02 6:55:12 AM, Tuck@... writes:
<< OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play at
play day? >>
I used to get my boys to disarm when we were going to playgroup meetings, or
when other families were coming over we didn't know well, just in case.
Letting them play with guns didn't mean they had to have them at all times,
every day. It was a lesson in courtesy, just as they didn't (still don't)
put South Park or even the Simpson's on if known-conservative-Christian
friends are over.
One day Chef Aid was on a CD player in the kitchen, and I was cleaning house
and bopping around and had left the room. A family came to deliver a
teenaged girl to hang out. They'd never been here. Marty subtly came and
switched it off all casually, and let me know he had.
They practiced early by not singing their funny poop-based parodies at the
grandmother's house.
They don't always use the cleanest of language, but they are really good at
gauging the audience and not using it indiscriminately.
Same with weapons or topics of discussion.
Sandra
<< OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play at
play day? >>
I used to get my boys to disarm when we were going to playgroup meetings, or
when other families were coming over we didn't know well, just in case.
Letting them play with guns didn't mean they had to have them at all times,
every day. It was a lesson in courtesy, just as they didn't (still don't)
put South Park or even the Simpson's on if known-conservative-Christian
friends are over.
One day Chef Aid was on a CD player in the kitchen, and I was cleaning house
and bopping around and had left the room. A family came to deliver a
teenaged girl to hang out. They'd never been here. Marty subtly came and
switched it off all casually, and let me know he had.
They practiced early by not singing their funny poop-based parodies at the
grandmother's house.
They don't always use the cleanest of language, but they are really good at
gauging the audience and not using it indiscriminately.
Same with weapons or topics of discussion.
Sandra
KT
>Yeah, me too. Except in this instance (my old support group), there is
>
><< OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play at
>play day? >>
>
>I used to get my boys to disarm when we were going to playgroup meetings, or
>when other families were coming over we didn't know well, just in case.
>
one kid who won't come if he can't play with weapons, and one mom who
won't let her son come if there are kids playing with weapons. She's
the one pushing for the ban.
The problem is, the weapons kid is a charter member, and he has a lot of
other kinds of issues--kind of a dysfunctional family all around--and
this is the only thing he will attend, at all. He's a total struggle
for his mom all the time. SHE needs the group. If he won't go, she
can't go. (They are not unschoolers, but wanted to be--just can't pull
it off. And that's a whole nother post.)
The anti-weapons mom just gave birth to her second child, also a son. I
really think she's in la-la land if she thinks her sons will never want
to do some kind of gun play. Even if her 5 yo is compliant (which I've
heard he's NOT when she's not looking), she has no idea what the baby is
going to be like. And our children are often very different from each
other!
I agree with you, Sandra. We show common courtesy in groups until we
find out what is acceptable. But the weapons kid is a messed up kid,
and the group is torn between doing what it can to help him
(socialization issues, but he's not dangerous) out of love for him and
his mother (known them a long time), and this new person's request.
BTW, I personally think the anti-weapon woman is being discourteous to
come to a group and insist it be her way, anyway.
Tuck
zenmomma *
>>BTW, I personally think the anti-weapon woman is being discourteous toThat's kind of what I was thinking. We too tried to be mindful of the
>>come to a group and insist it be her way, anyway.>>
dynamics of any home or situation we were going into. If it was a
non-gun-toting home, we would play by their guidelines. But I would not go
into an established group and impose my rules on them. You can't be all
things to all people. I'd tell her how the group has been successfully
operating thus far, and if she wants to be a part of it great. If not,
that's her choice. I wouldn't cut off the older members access to the group
because a newer member has problems with cap guns.
Life is good.
~Mary
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In a message dated 9/3/02 7:22:08 AM, Tuck@... writes:
<< BTW, I personally think the anti-weapon woman is being discourteous to
come to a group and insist it be her way, anyway. >>
TRUE if the group allowed weapons play before she showed up. That's a whole
different situation.
If people come over here and it's totally on our terms, not "a meeting," just
being at our house, then the boffers often come out, the tournament-fighting
video games aren't under the pile, and Little Shop of Horrors is okay to play.
We have one little girl who hangs out with us who can't even hear "Under the
Boardwalk." Too nasty. The other day I had Paul Simon on and was singing
along to "Cecelia" when I realized it was too nasty, and I stopped singing
and took it off.
I have lots of music and don't have to play stuff that will make her
uncomfortable. I hope she'll get over her avoidance of popular culture, but
if she opts not to, that's okay too, and she and Holly probably won't be
friends their whole lives if one stays extremely Christian and intolerant and
Holly stays Holly. But for now they're friends and I feel an obligation to
help keep the environment "wholesome" (to the friend's standards).
Sandra
<< BTW, I personally think the anti-weapon woman is being discourteous to
come to a group and insist it be her way, anyway. >>
TRUE if the group allowed weapons play before she showed up. That's a whole
different situation.
If people come over here and it's totally on our terms, not "a meeting," just
being at our house, then the boffers often come out, the tournament-fighting
video games aren't under the pile, and Little Shop of Horrors is okay to play.
We have one little girl who hangs out with us who can't even hear "Under the
Boardwalk." Too nasty. The other day I had Paul Simon on and was singing
along to "Cecelia" when I realized it was too nasty, and I stopped singing
and took it off.
I have lots of music and don't have to play stuff that will make her
uncomfortable. I hope she'll get over her avoidance of popular culture, but
if she opts not to, that's okay too, and she and Holly probably won't be
friends their whole lives if one stays extremely Christian and intolerant and
Holly stays Holly. But for now they're friends and I feel an obligation to
help keep the environment "wholesome" (to the friend's standards).
Sandra
zenmomma *
>>But for now they're friends and I feel an obligation tohelp keep the environment "wholesome" (to the friend's standards).>>
We have lots of Mormon friends here in Utah. (No kidding, in Utah, really?
<g>) My kids have become pretty sensitive to not offending the
sensibilities or beliefs of their friends. Conor had a little trouble with
this when we first moved here, but he and his frineds are now old enough to
discuss this stuff. There's mutual respect.
Life is good.
~Mary
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Kelli Traaseth
I also notice this and for me it has turned up in the places where I really thought we would fit in. At art and music related activities, in a way I feel like they are acting really snobbish to us. We aren't purists enough to be considered one of them. For example, I just let both of my kids drop out of Suzuki music programs this year because I really want them being the ones to decide if they want to be musicians. Well, of course, I get from most people at the school that I need to force that on them because they don't know what's 'best' for them. Yuck!! They don't give credit where credit is due, that both my kids are doing other things and sit down at our old piano and pick out songs, or walk around playing instruments/doing a parade for us. Its very sad that most of these kids are so over scheduled that they can't just enjoy what they want to enjoy. Take Care, Kelli
KT wrote:>
OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play at
play day?
Tuck
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KT wrote:>
>Golly! I thought I was the only one who noticed this!!!
>Their children, IME, often do nasty exclusive stuff ("I'm starting a club
>and only girls who are 7 or older can be in it, but not you because your
>shoes are weird") when the parents are out of earshot, which always sort
>of led me to the conclusion that they were really sick of this fake
>perpetual sweetness and light and didn't know any other ways to escape
>besides being nasty. They also edge away from kids wearing Simpsons or
>Monty Python t shirts.
>
OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play at
play day?
Tuck
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If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**OK, so what do we do with them when they want to forbid weapons play
at
play day?**
Hi, Tuck --
My homeschool support group does forbid weapons play at park day, and I
just live with it. As a mom who inclines to nervousness, I'm reasonably
happy not to have the younger kids waving sticks at each other. (Almost
all of the older kids at the park are quite gentle, but some of the
preschool aged kids are still full of beans, and not full of sensibleness.)
Sometimes my son has a plastic weapon in his hand while we are driving
to the park, but he understands about leaving it in the car.
(OK, when he was 2.5 or 3 and totally weapons obsessed, we just skipped
park days for awhile.)
Betsy
PS So our group isn't debating weapons play any more, that's settled
for us. Food is our new battleground.
at
play day?**
Hi, Tuck --
My homeschool support group does forbid weapons play at park day, and I
just live with it. As a mom who inclines to nervousness, I'm reasonably
happy not to have the younger kids waving sticks at each other. (Almost
all of the older kids at the park are quite gentle, but some of the
preschool aged kids are still full of beans, and not full of sensibleness.)
Sometimes my son has a plastic weapon in his hand while we are driving
to the park, but he understands about leaving it in the car.
(OK, when he was 2.5 or 3 and totally weapons obsessed, we just skipped
park days for awhile.)
Betsy
PS So our group isn't debating weapons play any more, that's settled
for us. Food is our new battleground.
Gerard Westenberg
<, but he and his frineds are now old enough to
We have some people over whom I know have stricter rules and the kids and I
have talked about no videos, computer games or gun play when these families
visit. We often choose other board games in advance, to see if the visitors
like any of these...But I have a bit of a problem with people, new to a
group, who want to make rules for the group...several years ago, a group of
homeschoolers used to meet once a week at the local swimming pool. Some
would leave at lunch and some of us would buy some food at the kiosk before
leaving...A couple of new families to the group said they had talked
privately and agreed that the group should adopt a rule that none of us
should go to the kiosk - saved them from explaining to their kids why they
didn't want to buy food from the kiosk. I felt it was unfair to make rules
for others - so people suggested a compromise - families could go to the
kiosk but not buy junk food! What? I respected their choice in not allowing
their kids fast food but I didn't have the same rules and didn't want these
ideas forced onto our family. It was a tricky situation...Leonie W.
> discuss this stuff. There's mutual respect.Yes - the feeling that its okay to respect others beliefs. We do this,too .
We have some people over whom I know have stricter rules and the kids and I
have talked about no videos, computer games or gun play when these families
visit. We often choose other board games in advance, to see if the visitors
like any of these...But I have a bit of a problem with people, new to a
group, who want to make rules for the group...several years ago, a group of
homeschoolers used to meet once a week at the local swimming pool. Some
would leave at lunch and some of us would buy some food at the kiosk before
leaving...A couple of new families to the group said they had talked
privately and agreed that the group should adopt a rule that none of us
should go to the kiosk - saved them from explaining to their kids why they
didn't want to buy food from the kiosk. I felt it was unfair to make rules
for others - so people suggested a compromise - families could go to the
kiosk but not buy junk food! What? I respected their choice in not allowing
their kids fast food but I didn't have the same rules and didn't want these
ideas forced onto our family. It was a tricky situation...Leonie W.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/3/2002 9:22:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Tuck@... writes:
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tuck@... writes:
> . (They are not unschoolers, but wanted to be--just can't pullBring her with you, Tuck! (to SC)
> it off. And that's a whole nother post.)
>
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>...A couple of new families to the group said they had talkedprivately and agreed that the group should adopt a rule that none of us
should go to the kiosk - saved them from explaining to their kids why they
didn't want to buy food from the kiosk.>>
This kind of thing drives me crazy. The feeling that I should not be saying
yes so often because it makes other moms feel bad for saying no so often. I
LOVE those little moments I can say yes. Those are the ones that create the
best memories. (Remember how mom would take us to the pool? And then we'd
always get a treat from the kiosk?!)
When Casey was taking gymnastics twice a week, she would ask for a treat
from the snack machine after her hour and a half (intense!) workout. After
working that hard, that was what she wanted. It cost 50 cents each time. It
never, ever spoiled her dinner because the kid was starving after working so
hard. Our funds are not unlimited, but I knew I could cover the 50 cents,
even if she asked each and every time. It made her happy, and kept her blood
sugar up. To me, it was a win/win situation. I was amazed and saddened at
how many moms gave me the evil eye for saying yes. And at how many sad any
whiny kids had to go home depleted because the parents wouldn't spring for
50 cents or remember to bring a granola bar to the workout.
Life is good.
~Mary
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In a message dated 9/4/02 10:44:01 AM, zenmomma@... writes:
<< >>...A couple of new families to the group said they had talked
privately and agreed that the group should adopt a rule that none of us
should go to the kiosk - saved them from explaining to their kids why they
didn't want to buy food from the kiosk.>> >>
So they're starting another group, right?
If my kids really liked the group I would still go, but buy them something on
the way there or on the way home to make up for the artificial deprivation.
Sandra
<< >>...A couple of new families to the group said they had talked
privately and agreed that the group should adopt a rule that none of us
should go to the kiosk - saved them from explaining to their kids why they
didn't want to buy food from the kiosk.>> >>
So they're starting another group, right?
If my kids really liked the group I would still go, but buy them something on
the way there or on the way home to make up for the artificial deprivation.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/02 10:44:01 AM, zenmomma@... writes:
<< >>...A couple of new families to the group said they had talked
privately and agreed that the group should adopt a rule that none of us
should go to the kiosk - saved them from explaining to their kids why they
didn't want to buy food from the kiosk.>> >>
So they're starting another group, right?
If my kids really liked the group I would still go, but buy them something on
the way there or on the way home to make up for the artificial deprivation.
Sandra
<< >>...A couple of new families to the group said they had talked
privately and agreed that the group should adopt a rule that none of us
should go to the kiosk - saved them from explaining to their kids why they
didn't want to buy food from the kiosk.>> >>
So they're starting another group, right?
If my kids really liked the group I would still go, but buy them something on
the way there or on the way home to make up for the artificial deprivation.
Sandra
KT
>You know what? I have often counseled other mothers who are overwhelmed
>
>This kind of thing drives me crazy. The feeling that I should not be saying
>yes so often because it makes other moms feel bad for saying no so often. I
>LOVE those little moments I can say yes. Those are the ones that create the
>best memories. (Remember how mom would take us to the pool? And then we'd
>always get a treat from the kiosk?!)
>
and feeling trapped in no-ville that they should find a way to say yes
to whatever their kids want at any given moment. Many times it just
lifts the spirits of everyone and the kid feels loved after a short time
of yeses and won't harangue and harrass mom so much.
I learned this from my dad. He's such a *great* dad. I remember my mom
was always the "no" person. But one time he stuck up for me, and
insisted I be allowed to go on a high school spring break ski trip. I
will always love him for that.
When my oldest children were little, Dad would take them for a couple of
weeks at a time. (I was single then, and he was giving me a break.) He
always reported that they behaved perfectly and were happy and had a
good time. They always came back completely centered and content. He
said that was because he resolved when my eldest was born to never say
"no" to his grandchildren, even if he knew what they were asking he
couldn't possibly provide.
Think about how hard that would be? Never say no? Sometimes he had to
be creative; he would say "later" or engage them in conversation about
it until they came to the conclusion that they didn't need/want it. But
because he'd never said no to even their tiniest request, they've never
asked for anything impossible. This is some of the best advice found in
"How to Talk so Kids Will Listen...", too. And he's probably never even
heard of that book.
My kids never ask him for anything anymore, because they know he'd give
it to them, and they're grown up enough and love him enough to not want
to burden him. He has a very nice Jeep and a ski boat and numerous
other toys, that they know they can use anytime. But they don't. I
think just knowing they can is enough. And they express true gratitude
to him, which is nice to see. They think the world of each other.
It's hard, hard, hard when you're the parent and not the grandparent, to
have a relationship with your kids like that. But every little bit helps.
Tuck
Vicki A. Dennis
Tuck,
Thanks for posting this. You can let your dad know that just hearing about him has provided good feelings miles away!
vicki
I learned this from my dad.
......
good time. They always came back completely centered and content. He
said that was because he resolved when my eldest was born to never say
"no" to his grandchildren, even if he knew what they were asking he
couldn't possibly provide.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for posting this. You can let your dad know that just hearing about him has provided good feelings miles away!
vicki
I learned this from my dad.
......
good time. They always came back completely centered and content. He
said that was because he resolved when my eldest was born to never say
"no" to his grandchildren, even if he knew what they were asking he
couldn't possibly provide.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]