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In a message dated 9/1/02 10:14:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


>
> Welcome (from another former secondary English teacher who minored in
> psychology)
>
>
> Sandra

I am in a question asking mood tonight! <g> I already asked Pam a nosy
question, so here is Sandra's!
Sandra, I read once, somewhere, in an introduction to something you wrote or
something someone wrote about you, (or maybe I imagined it all! Correct me if
I am wrong.) that you once discouraged a friend or family member (?) from
homeschooling. I think it said that at one time, you were totally against
homeschooling and had talked this person out of homeschooling their kids, and
then later, you had made a complete 360 and now here you are! If this is
true, what is it that made you decide to do all that you have done? I also
wonder if there are others here who have done this as well? Has anyone came
from being against homeschooling for what ever reason and now supports it so
much? Why, how come, and what made the difference??
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Bluntness and language alert on this one.


In a message dated 9/1/02 9:36:37 PM, Dnowens@... writes:

<< I read once, somewhere, in an introduction to something you wrote or
something someone wrote about you, (or maybe I imagined it all! Correct me if
I am wrong.) that you once discouraged a friend or family member (?) from
homeschooling. >>

My cousin Nada Trujillo. When her first (of eventually five) was nearly
schoolage, I was a new teacher and all excited about it, and she said "We're
thinking of homeschooling Paul," and I said that was no good, what about
this, what about that, what about socialization, what if all the smart kids
were taken out of school, blah blah blah...

<<If this is true, what is it that made you decide to do all that you have
done?>>

I felt really bad when I realized what a tacky bad thing I had done, and
called her almost that second. The bad thing was, she was down to three or
for kids still in school (one almost out of high school, I think--the second
one, a girl). Some did come home, even that year. All ended up back for
basketball at some point.

<<Has anyone came
from being against homeschooling for what ever reason and now supports it so
much? Why, how come, and what made the difference??>>

I'd guess most people were against it vaguely when it first came up, whether
from years of justification and trust that the arguments given us had
validity, or the Stockholm Syndrome (being discussed here or somewhere today
in relation to a kneejerk defense of school).

I was at a La Leche League playgroup meeting, sitting on a blanket with five
or six other moms I knew well, at Hoffman Park in Albuquerque. I remember
the whole day, the sky, etc., because I had a lifechanging moment. It's
when I first considered MAYBE considering homeschooling. I think Kirby was
only three so it wasn't a real consideration yet.

My friend Rhiannon (I still know her, saw her at the store Wednesday) was
saying she was thinking of homeschooling. Some of the people there were
homeschoolers, most weren't, most didn't have schoolaged kids.

I gave a teacherly argument against it, in a way, in answering one of the
moms' question about WHY schools were so against homeschooling. I said
(truly, I still believe it, but it's not the ONLY reason) "They're afraid of
people buttf***** their kids." It was too blunt for that group that day too,
but I blurted it out because so many parents seem to think that there are NO
horribly abusive families. And from the inside of the school, I think most
teachers have known kids who would miss a week of school and it was because
the bruises needed time to heal. I had one, a teenaged girl who was probably
also being sexually assaulted by her dad. I didn't do anything and it haunts
me and will haunt me until I die.

I said to Rhainnon, "What if Lily would like school as much as I did?" (and
I truly did have some of my best times ever in school, in band, in choir,
hanging out with teachers during the 40 minutes I waited for the bus every
day, getting to know the librarian...) I thought it was a pretty powerful
question and I'd win that round.

Rhiannon calmly said something very like, "What if Kirby hates if as much as
I did? Most people do."

Rhiannon won, hands down.

Because while I DID like school, I knew from third grade that the majority of
the kids did not, and that some were crushed by it, by being retained a
grade, by not speaking English well enough and there being a rule against
even asking a question or playing at recess in Spanish, and some were
socially eroded by lack of popularity, or incessant teasing. And some killed
themselves. Two of my friends had shot themselves in the head rather than
face the next day. One when we were 14, one when we were 15.

And so at that moment, homeschooling because a viable option for us.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/1/02 10:00:20 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:

<< My cousin Nada Trujillo. >>

Oh...

I might need to point out for some readers, since I just linked Gina
Trujillo's webpage to my video gaming page (still in progress,
http://sandradodd.com/games/page )
that Gina's not one of Nada's kids, but is my sister Irene's oldest girl.
They're related, but not on the Trujillo side. We can't say "Trujillo [no
relation]" because they ARE related. <g>

Sandra

carolyn

Okay, I gotta ask. Nada is her name? Is she Spanish speaking? Her
name means "nothing"? What's that about?

Carolyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/1/02 10:00:20 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> << My cousin Nada Trujillo. >>
>
> Oh...
>
> I might need to point out for some readers, since I just linked Gina
> Trujillo's webpage to my video gaming page (still in progress,
> http://sandradodd.com/games/page )
> that Gina's not one of Nada's kids, but is my sister Irene's oldest
> girl.
> They're related, but not on the Trujillo side. We can't say "Trujillo
> [no
> relation]" because they ARE related. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 9/2/02 12:35:18 AM Central Daylight Time,
nielsonc@... writes:


> Okay, I gotta ask. Nada is her name? Is she Spanish speaking? Her
> name means "nothing"? What's that about?
>
> Carolyn

I doubt her name is pronounced Na Da, it is probably NadEa. Just my guess.
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 9/1/02 11:35:39 PM, nielsonc@... writes:

<< Okay, I gotta ask. Nada is her name? Is she Spanish speaking? Her
name means "nothing"? What's that about? >>

It's Russian.
Her mom named her after a hairdresser in Fort Worth. Then she named the
little sister "Nadine." Then my parents raised both those girls with me and
my sister, and they were about our ages (close enough to be in the same grade
in school).

Since the first "a" is long (maybe not in Russia, but in Texas <g>), and most
of the people who speak Spanish in northern New Mexico don't read it, it
wasn't a problem.

Sandra

KT

>
>
> If this is
>true, what is it that made you decide to do all that you have done?
>

Ha! I did a 180, but up until now I've been too proud to admit it. lol.

My brother told me in early 1996 that he was thinking about
homeschooling his girls. He was very (overly, IMO) worried for their
safety if they had to leave the nest of Catholic school and move in to
public school in 6th grade. (In their area, Catholic school only went
to 5th.)

I tried to talk him out of it. I used the usual objections--and I added
that I thought it was "easy for him to say", when he travels most of the
week and his wife would be stuck home doing it all without him.
Socialization, yada, yada. Since I was a Southern Baptist at the time,
I even said he had an obligation to the unsaved masses to keep his
children in school as a good example. (:::excuse me while I blush at my
own arrogance:::::I didn't even understand that Catholics weren't
interested in "saving" people.)

He had obviously read up on it, and gave me some good arguments about
socialization and the crowd control issues of school, etc. In the end,
he decided to devote his efforts to convincing their school to hire a
6th grade teacher, which they did. I never spoke with him about why he
decided that. (I'll bet he doesn't know that his eldest daughter, now
17, has complained for years to my father about Catholic school, and how
she is never going to church again once she leaves my brother's house.)

It was in October of that year that my mid-kid's experience with middle
school reached critical mass. He got suspended for fighting, under that
zero tolerance policy that apparently didn't apply to the girl he was
fighting with. (I'm not bitter anymore...well, maybe just a little.
lol) When I got the phone call from the principal and heard the story,
I *instantly* thought of homeschooling and my conversations with my
brother. My son never went back.

But seriously, how can I be bitter about an incident that has led to the
most wonderful, joyful living I've ever experienced. I'm thankful to my
brother that he brought it up, too. Who knows what would have happened
if I had never heard of homeschooling? Life hasn't always been rosy,
but I shudder to think what my son might have been like if he had been
treated the way he was in school for 6 more years. All five of us have
benefitted, but his little brother is the one who is getting the best
part. Never being forced to go to school at all.

Tuck

KT

>
>
>Rhiannon calmly said something very like, "What if Kirby hates if as much as
>I did? Most people do."
>

ZING!

Good for her. Good for me. :)

Tuck

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In a message dated 9/2/02 8:41:07 AM, Tuck@... writes:

<< >Rhiannon calmly said something very like, "What if Kirby hates if as much
as
>I did? Most people do."
>

-=-ZING!

-=-Good for her. Good for me. :) >>

Here's the sad irony:

Rhiannon's kids went to school.

Their dad was training as an elementary teacher and was willing for them to
stay home IF... if... if... and then the parents got divorced and the girls
ended up in alternative programs a bit and then decided regular school was
better than dealing with the dad's nervous concern.

If their dad had only taken Ritalin, they might have been happily
homeschooled.

We live in the same neighborhood with both parents and the kids (they bought
a second house walking distance from the first), and the girls did okay, but
they definitely picked up the tight self-consciousness of what they wear, who
they know, what they read, do, listen to, like...

Sandra

achisms5

-Nancy,


I have a degree in elementary education and psychology. I got my
psychology degree first and then worked in a daycare with infants for
several months, two year olds for several months--I later had those
same two year olds in my preschool class. I then worked in a
Montessori school for a couple of years before I decided to get my
el. ed. license.


What I saw in the ps during practicumms and student teaching, along
with kids I knew, left me knowing one thing--that young children are
fascinated with the world, thirst to know more about it, and revel in
learning but by the time many reach second grade or so they view it
as drudgery. So I was left with the vague notion that there must be
something about the way schools do what they do that turns children
off. I knew (from what I learned in my psych classes about how
learning happens) that it revolved around the fact that people learn
what they care about and how they can fit new info into already
existing connections and that people make these connections very
differently. I knew from my own experience in ps that learning for
me, in that context, meant figuring out what the teachers wanted,
memorizing it so I could spit it back to them and then promptly
forgetting most of it. I saw that even if I wanted to base my
classroom around child-led learning and intrinsic motivation, it
would be very difficult to do in most ps what with grades, and
standardized testing and school wide "management" systems. Not to
mention that parents wanted feedback in the form of grades and test
scores so saying something like "Zach is really good at figuring out
how machines work" wouldn't cut if for most.

So, then I had kids and stayed home with them. Sent my kids to
preschool and ps until about a year and a half ago. I had a friend
who homeschooled (school at home) her kids for religious reasons and
we had many discussions with me saying that hsing was not a good
thing and kids needed the exposure of schools. I really thought that
if I was an involved parent and supplemented my kids interests at
home that schools would be fine. My oldest child hated school, from
the Montessori preschool he went to through the second grade at ps he
attended. We couldn't afford private schools because we felt it was
more important for me to be home with them than to work to pay for
it. I really didn't view hsing as an option, I thought hsers were
religious conservatives who wanted to make sure that their views
weren't questioned by their children too early.

What changed my mind? Well, my son was becoming very negative to any
experiences at home that resembled learning, was almost always in a
bad mood when he came home. I read a book called "Coloring Outside
the Lines" in which a man who designed artificial intelligence for
computers and therefore had studied a lot about how learning works,
wrote about how to get your kids through public school with their
critical thinking, creativity and love of learning in tact. It
echoed what I already knew, that most ps were not environments in
which real learning could thrive. Bush became president and I knew
if his education plan were implemented things would only get worse.
I thought about what I wanted most for my children. It was to grow
up to be kind, thoughtful people who followed their hearts and
desires and what they thought to be right without regard to what
others thought. Well then it was like duh! if that is what I want
for me kids then I better start modeling it and psing would only
hinder most of my hopes for them. So we started hsing.


While learning about hsing it didn't take me long to stumble across
unschooling and it resonated with me right away and here I am. And
even though I really believe it is right I still struggle with the
trust thing sometimes. And I still struggle with the perceptions of
others when they ask my kids about their hsing and they say things
like "We don't do school, we just play." And I believe that is
because I don't have the trust thing down yet. But I am getting
better and reading here and other places helps a lot.


Mary



Mary
wrote:
> In a message dated 9/1/02 10:14:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
> SandraDodd@a... writes:
>
>
> >
> > Welcome (from another former secondary English teacher who
minored in
> > psychology)
> >
> >
> > Sandra
>
> I am in a question asking mood tonight! <g> I already asked Pam a
nosy
> question, so here is Sandra's!
> Sandra, I read once, somewhere, in an introduction to something you
wrote or
> something someone wrote about you, (or maybe I imagined it all!
Correct me if
> I am wrong.) that you once discouraged a friend or family member
(?) from
> homeschooling. I think it said that at one time, you were totally
against
> homeschooling and had talked this person out of homeschooling their
kids, and
> then later, you had made a complete 360 and now here you are! If
this is
> true, what is it that made you decide to do all that you have done?
I also
> wonder if there are others here who have done this as well? Has
anyone came
> from being against homeschooling for what ever reason and now
supports it so
> much? Why, how come, and what made the difference??
> ~Nancy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/2/02 11:05:05 AM, marydan@... writes:

<< So, then I had kids and stayed home with them. Sent my kids to
preschool and ps until about a year and a half ago. I had a friend
who homeschooled (school at home) her kids for religious reasons and
we had many discussions with me saying that hsing was not a good
thing and kids needed the exposure of schools. >>

I think school-at-home for religious reasons sometimes DOES fulfill the
bad-predictions of homeschooling. Sometimes the kids are isolated, and
they're not learning how to get along in the world (often by parental
design). They're not learning enough to get into state universities (because
some are learning a fantasy form of science and history), but the parents
don't intend for them to GO to state universities. They'll go to Christian
colleges or they won't go at all (think the parents).

So I'm torn sometimes and rarely defend homeschooling as a block of life or
behavior. When talking to "outsiders," I almost always first qualify that we
are not religious school-at-home homeschoolers, that we don't "do school."
Then I talk about how homeschooling as we do it doesn't creat school or
school-at-home problems.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>I think school-at-home for religious reasons sometimes DOES fulfill the
>bad-predictions of homeschooling. Sometimes the kids are isolated, and
>they're not learning how to get along in the world (often by parental
>design). They're not learning enough to get into state universities (because
>some are learning a fantasy form of science and history), but the parents
>don't intend for them to GO to state universities. They'll go to Christian
>colleges or they won't go at all (think the parents).

We've got one on the Canadian list whose kids aren't going to go to college
- her choice. The boys will learn blue collar trades so they can support
the families they'll be starting early. The girls will get married
early. The girls wear dresses and head scarves. I suppose you've guessed
that spanking is their main form of discipline . . . sigh.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island