Luz Shosie and Ned Vare

on 8/26/02 2:30 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

Leslie Avery writes:
> I don't like to generalize that all schools are bad, but
> my experience with my children is that the whole idea
> of the way schools are set up reinforce[s] that
> dysfunction.

Yes, few education writers match Dr. Armstrong for compassion and common
sense.

Leslie, you are another mother who sees that schools damage children. This
list seems to be made up of people who realize that, while the "leaders"
seem in denial about it and don't want us to talk about it.

And yet, the damage is exactly what most of us are trying to avoid, and if
we don't recognize it, we won't be able to avoid it.

Leslie continues:
>my three older children are also
>deschooling from their experiences, so they have a
>double whammy. My younger son who has never been in
>school is probably more ahead.

So, I'd like to ask you, Leslie, to describe how you believe schools
"reinforce dysfunction," and how you feel that your former attitudes also
did similar damage to your kids, and what you do in your unschooling not to
damage your kids the way schools do.

Thanks. Ned Vare

joanna514

> So, I'd like to ask you, Leslie, to describe how you believe schools
> "reinforce dysfunction," and how you feel that your former
attitudes also
> did similar damage to your kids, and what you do in your
unschooling not to
> damage your kids the way schools do.
>
> Thanks. Ned Vare

Does she get a grade for answering this essay question?
I'm glad I'm not Leslie. That's too much pressure!
I don't think anyone needs to be guided in their discussion or
sharing information here.
Joanna

[email protected]

Leslie, you are another mother who sees that schools damage children. This
list seems to be made up of people who realize that, while the "leaders"
seem in denial about it and don't want us to talk about it.

WE KNOW THAT. We are trying to do something about it. Thiis list focuses on
only ONE of the ways to change.
This list is to help others find positive proactive ways to spend out days
learning with our children.
Why in the world should we spend our time focusing on something that we have
already rejected?
The simple act of removing our children speaks volumes about our opinion of
schooling.
So here's my response to you:
You are absolutely right Ned, schools suck. So my kids are out of them.
NOW WHAT? What do I do with my children? How do I look at life from Outside
the school mindset? I know you have answers, I've been to your website, it
is a positive joyful look at learning outside of school. Why is your writing
and thoughts so different here?
How about helping us out with these questions?
Think of it this way, We read "How Children Fail" and "Dumbing us Down", we
agreed and discovered unschooling. Now we are on to "So what do I do on
Monday?"
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/02 10:28:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Wilkinson6@... writes:


> Does she get a grade for answering this essay question?
> I'm glad I'm not Leslie. That's too much pressure!
> I don't think anyone needs to be guided in their discussion or
> sharing information here.
> Joanna
>
>
>

I think Leslie is probably a big girl, and can decide whether or not she
would like to respond. Perhaps Leslie will really enjoy being prodded to
think a little deeper, or perhaps she'll be too busy. I imagine that's her
business.

Sherry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 8/27/02 10:15 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:

> Leslie, you are another mother who sees that schools damage children. This
> list seems to be made up of people who realize that, while the "leaders"
> seem in denial about it and don't want us to talk about it.
>
> And yet, the damage is exactly what most of us are trying to avoid, and if
> we don't recognize it, we won't be able to avoid it.

Ned, this is just more nonsense intended to create bad feelings towards
those who've been here for a long time. I personally have repeated over and
over that I understand the damage that schools do. I've repeated over and
over that this list is for helping people move on. We don't need to turn
every conversation to it in order to recognize it. When school damage comes
up *in the natural flow of conversation* it gets discussed. People do get
help to deal with it and help to move on. Yes, it is like therapy.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Ned, this is really really sad.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

joanna514

We don't need to turn
> every conversation to it in order to recognize it. When school
damage comes
> up *in the natural flow of conversation* it gets discussed. People
do get
> help to deal with it and help to move on. Yes, it is like therapy.
> ......

> Joyce
> Unschooling-dotcom moderator

I had vowed when I first started homeschooling over 5 years ago that
i would not bash the school system because of our choice. I avoided
reading anti school stuff because I didn't want our reasons to come
from a negative place. Gradually, through discussions of why people
were looking into homeschooling, I realized I really couldn't avoid
the issue of the school system, and have come to some pretty negative
ideas about it in my mind. It can be a difficult and lonely place to
be, when you are surrounded by people who are completely committed to
public education. And while i appreciate the why's of school not
being ideal, I would never focus my life around that. To me, that's
not a healthy place to come from.
Joanna

inmdcrew

I've been silent for about a week now just reading and reading.

But for all of the c/o meaness and rudeness re: Ned and Bob, surely
can you not see that this response below is very rude and sarcastic.

Turn about is fair play or is it?

Tina (inmdcrew)








--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...> wrote:
> > So, I'd like to ask you, Leslie, to describe how you believe
schools
> > "reinforce dysfunction," and how you feel that your former
> attitudes also
> > did similar damage to your kids, and what you do in your
> unschooling not to
> > damage your kids the way schools do.
> >
> > Thanks. Ned Vare
>
> Does she get a grade for answering this essay question?
> I'm glad I'm not Leslie. That's too much pressure!
> I don't think anyone needs to be guided in their discussion or
> sharing information here.
> Joanna

joanna514

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "inmdcrew" <Hatfield72@H...> wrote:
> I've been silent for about a week now just reading and reading.
>
> But for all of the c/o meaness and rudeness re: Ned and Bob, surely
> can you not see that this response below is very rude and sarcastic.
>
> Turn about is fair play or is it?
>
> Tina (inmdcrew)


It's called being fed up.
Joanna

>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...> wrote:
> > > So, I'd like to ask you, Leslie, to describe how you believe
> schools
> > > "reinforce dysfunction," and how you feel that your former
> > attitudes also
> > > did similar damage to your kids, and what you do in your
> > unschooling not to
> > > damage your kids the way schools do.
> > >
> > > Thanks. Ned Vare
> >
> > Does she get a grade for answering this essay question?
> > I'm glad I'm not Leslie. That's too much pressure!
> > I don't think anyone needs to be guided in their discussion or
> > sharing information here.
> > Joanna

LadyWolf/Xena/MsT

Good point, Joanna! I applaud the way you choose to focus on emotional healthful ways of thinking, rather than the constant negative. We need more people in the world who feel that way! :-)

Ms T
I had vowed when I first started homeschooling over 5 years ago that
i would not bash the school system because of our choice. I avoided
reading anti school stuff because I didn't want our reasons to come
from a negative place. Gradually, through discussions of why people
were looking into homeschooling, I realized I really couldn't avoid
the issue of the school system, and have come to some pretty negative
ideas about it in my mind. It can be a difficult and lonely place to
be, when you are surrounded by people who are completely committed to
public education. And while i appreciate the why's of school not
being ideal, I would never focus my life around that. To me, that's
not a healthy place to come from.
Joanna




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

inmdcrew

But that doesn't make it right.

Tina (inmdcrew)





--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...> wrote:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "inmdcrew" <Hatfield72@H...> wrote:
> > I've been silent for about a week now just reading and reading.
> >
> > But for all of the c/o meaness and rudeness re: Ned and Bob,
surely
> > can you not see that this response below is very rude and
sarcastic.
> >
> > Turn about is fair play or is it?
> >
> > Tina (inmdcrew)
>
>
> It's called being fed up.
> Joanna
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...>
wrote:
> > > > So, I'd like to ask you, Leslie, to describe how you believe
> > schools
> > > > "reinforce dysfunction," and how you feel that your former
> > > attitudes also
> > > > did similar damage to your kids, and what you do in your
> > > unschooling not to
> > > > damage your kids the way schools do.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks. Ned Vare
> > >
> > > Does she get a grade for answering this essay question?
> > > I'm glad I'm not Leslie. That's too much pressure!
> > > I don't think anyone needs to be guided in their discussion or
> > > sharing information here.
> > > Joanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/02 8:28:23 AM, Wilkinson6@... writes:

<< I don't think anyone needs to be guided in their discussion or
sharing information here. >>

Ned does, but he rejects guidance.
He rejects direct request from the list owner.
Her rejects subtle and blatant requests from other readers.

Why is Ned still here? Because Helen is nice.
Why is Ned still here? Because he doesn't care to be nice to Helen in return.

Sandra

Betsy

**I had vowed when I first started homeschooling over 5 years ago that
i would not bash the school system because of our choice. I avoided
reading anti school stuff because I didn't want our reasons to come
from a negative place. Gradually, through discussions of why people
were looking into homeschooling, I realized I really couldn't avoid
the issue of the school system, and have come to some pretty negative
ideas about it in my mind. It can be a difficult and lonely place to
be, when you are surrounded by people who are completely committed to
public education. And while i appreciate the why's of school not
being ideal, I would never focus my life around that. To me, that's
not a healthy place to come from. **


I see that we've come full circle on this topic. It seems to me that
this ties in with a previous religious discussion (let's not restart it)
about whether most Christians try to act morally because they love god
or because they fear hell. I'm seeing a lot of votes posted here for a
life based on love and NOT on fear. I'm personally not going to read
any more "sermons" about that old devil school system and the nine
circles of hell.

Betsy

Tia Leschke

>
>Leslie, you are another mother who sees that schools damage children. This
>list seems to be made up of people who realize that, while the "leaders"
>seem in denial about it and don't want us to talk about it.

Ned, when are you going to get it, that all of us believe that schools
damage children. That's why we're here. My own were damaged by schools,
and so was I. I can wallow in anger about what the schools did to me and
my older children, or I can do something positive about it . . . unschool
my youngest, and help my daughter unschool her kids.


>And yet, the damage is exactly what most of us are trying to avoid, and if
>we don't recognize it, we won't be able to avoid it.

We do recognize it. This is the choir here. Your congregation is
somewhere else.
Tia


"Unschool: Live your life as if there were no such thing as school." Ned Vare
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

kayb85

> WE KNOW THAT. We are trying to do something about it. Thiis list
focuses on
> only ONE of the ways to change.


Maybe that's what I'm not getting. It is possible to focus on only
one aspect of unschooling (the day to day) but it sometimes is
necessary to force oneself to not go to other aspects of the
conversation which flow naturally. For example, one big thing that
drew me to unschooling was the idea that schools don't work. They're
terrible, awful places for children to be. And once I acknowledged
that, I had to acknowledge that creating a school in the home didn't
work. I described myself as a relaxed homeschooler with unschooling
leanings for YEARS before I finally was able to let go and totally
unschool. For years after first considering unschooling I NEEDED to
talk about how terrible schools are before I was able to accept that
unschooling was the best way to go.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people who are looking into
unschooling that will need to go through a similar process. Some
people get it right away, but others need to internalize just how bad
school is before they can UNschool.

To say that this list won't be willing to talk about how terrible
schools are and discuss all the things we need to do politically to
take the power away from them is fine. The list owners have the
right to make their list whatever they want and after this, I'll let
it go. But if they are unwilling to discuss it, this list isn't
really for all those considering unschooling, it's for those who have
already come to terms with the terribleness of school and the
rightness of unschooling and are ready to discuss day to day. And
sometimes you won't be able to allow things to flow naturally and
there will be holes in the conversation because we'd be cutting some
of the (political, school bashing) stuff out.

> Why in the world should we spend our time focusing on something
that we have
> already rejected?

For the sake of those who haven't gone as far as you in the
unschooling process and aren't "there" yet?


> Think of it this way, We read "How Children Fail" and "Dumbing us
Down", we
> agreed and discovered unschooling. Now we are on to "So what do I
do on
> Monday?"

This list has done an awesome job of that and has helped me immensely
in that area.

Sheila

kayb85

> WE KNOW THAT. We are trying to do something about it. Thiis list
focuses on
> only ONE of the ways to change.


Maybe that's what I'm not getting. It is possible to focus on only
one aspect of unschooling (the day to day) but it sometimes is
necessary to force oneself to not go to other aspects of the
conversation which flow naturally. For example, one big thing that
drew me to unschooling was the idea that schools don't work. They're
terrible, awful places for children to be. And once I acknowledged
that, I had to acknowledge that creating a school in the home didn't
work. I described myself as a relaxed homeschooler with unschooling
leanings for YEARS before I finally was able to let go and totally
unschool. For years after first considering unschooling I NEEDED to
talk about how terrible schools are before I was able to accept that
unschooling was the best way to go.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people who are looking into
unschooling that will need to go through a similar process. Some
people get it right away, but others need to internalize just how bad
school is before they can UNschool.

To say that this list won't be willing to talk about how terrible
schools are and discuss all the things we need to do politically to
take the power away from them is fine. The list owners have the
right to make their list whatever they want and after this, I'll let
it go. But if they are unwilling to discuss it, this list isn't
really for all those considering unschooling, it's for those who have
already come to terms with the terribleness of school and the
rightness of unschooling and are ready to discuss day to day. And
sometimes you won't be able to allow things to flow naturally and
there will be holes in the conversation because we'd be cutting some
of the (political, school bashing) stuff out.

> Why in the world should we spend our time focusing on something
that we have
> already rejected?

For the sake of those who haven't gone as far as you in the
unschooling process and aren't "there" yet?


> Think of it this way, We read "How Children Fail" and "Dumbing us
Down", we
> agreed and discovered unschooling. Now we are on to "So what do I
do on
> Monday?"

This list has done an awesome job of that and has helped me immensely
in that area.

Sheila

kayb85

> WE KNOW THAT. We are trying to do something about it. Thiis list
focuses on
> only ONE of the ways to change.


Maybe that's what I'm not getting. It is possible to focus on only
one aspect of unschooling (the day to day) but it sometimes is
necessary to force oneself to not go to other aspects of the
conversation which flow naturally. For example, one big thing that
drew me to unschooling was the idea that schools don't work. They're
terrible, awful places for children to be. And once I acknowledged
that, I had to acknowledge that creating a school in the home didn't
work. I described myself as a relaxed homeschooler with unschooling
leanings for YEARS before I finally was able to let go and totally
unschool. For years after first considering unschooling I NEEDED to
talk about how terrible schools are before I was able to accept that
unschooling was the best way to go.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people who are looking into
unschooling that will need to go through a similar process. Some
people get it right away, but others need to internalize just how bad
school is before they can UNschool.

To say that this list won't be willing to talk about how terrible
schools are and discuss all the things we need to do politically to
take the power away from them is fine. The list owners have the
right to make their list whatever they want and after this, I'll let
it go. But if they are unwilling to discuss it, this list isn't
really for all those considering unschooling, it's for those who have
already come to terms with the terribleness of school and the
rightness of unschooling and are ready to discuss day to day. And
sometimes you won't be able to allow things to flow naturally and
there will be holes in the conversation because we'd be cutting some
of the (political, school bashing) stuff out.

> Why in the world should we spend our time focusing on something
that we have
> already rejected?

For the sake of those who haven't gone as far as you in the
unschooling process and aren't "there" yet?


> Think of it this way, We read "How Children Fail" and "Dumbing us
Down", we
> agreed and discovered unschooling. Now we are on to "So what do I
do on
> Monday?"

This list has done an awesome job of that and has helped me immensely
in that area.

Sheila

[email protected]

<<>Elissa: Why in the world should we spend our time focusing on something
that we have
> already rejected?

Sheila: For the sake of those who haven't gone as far as you in the
unschooling process and aren't "there" yet? >>


I will gladly discuss that when they bring the topic up. Personal situations
are always appropriate. But that isn't what is happening here is it?
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/02 3:31:09 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< It is possible to focus on only
one aspect of unschooling (the day to day) but it sometimes is
necessary to force oneself to not go to other aspects of the
conversation which flow naturally. >>

Ned's posts disturb the natural flow.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>Maybe that's what I'm not getting. It is possible to focus on only
>one aspect of unschooling (the day to day) but it sometimes is
>necessary to force oneself to not go to other aspects of the
>conversation which flow naturally. For example, one big thing that
>drew me to unschooling was the idea that schools don't work. They're
>terrible, awful places for children to be. And once I acknowledged
>that, I had to acknowledge that creating a school in the home didn't
>work. I described myself as a relaxed homeschooler with unschooling
>leanings for YEARS before I finally was able to let go and totally
>unschool. For years after first considering unschooling I NEEDED to
>talk about how terrible schools are before I was able to accept that
>unschooling was the best way to go.

For people who are still struggling with this, talking about it can be a
good thing. I think most people here would agree that it's on topic *in
that case*. The person doing the most talking about it is long past that
struggle.

>To say that this list won't be willing to talk about how terrible
>schools are and discuss all the things we need to do politically to
>take the power away from them is fine. The list owners have the
>right to make their list whatever they want and after this, I'll let
>it go. But if they are unwilling to discuss it, this list isn't
>really for all those considering unschooling, it's for those who have
>already come to terms with the terribleness of school and the
>rightness of unschooling and are ready to discuss day to day. And
>sometimes you won't be able to allow things to flow naturally and
>there will be holes in the conversation because we'd be cutting some
>of the (political, school bashing) stuff out.

I'm not sure you quite understand what people are objecting to in terms of
the school-bashing and political stuff. There's nothing wrong with posting
about how bad school was for either you or your kids if it's still
affecting you. There's also nothing wrong with posting about political
things that are happening *right now* to you or in your area. You might
get some pointers to information that's available elsewhere, but you'll
probably also get a fair amount of sympathy and support here.

What's causing the problem is the generalized, schools and *everyone*
connected with them are evil and corrupt, etc. If someone starts talking
like that, and no one else disagrees, it's just going to look to new people
like unschoolers don't know what they're talking about. (I'm sure just
about every one of us knows at least one person connected with the schools
who is a caring person, trying to do what they can for kids within a system
that doesn't work very well.)


> > Think of it this way, We read "How Children Fail" and "Dumbing us
>Down", we
> > agreed and discovered unschooling. Now we are on to "So what do I
>do on
> > Monday?"
>
>This list has done an awesome job of that and has helped me immensely
>in that area.

Then that's good. I *think* that's what we're about. It's why I'm here,
both to give and to get.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island