Luz Shosie and Ned Vare

on 8/26/02 9:28 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> Tanya
> mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01

In all seriousness, with kids age 2 and less that 1 year, your immediate
concerns are not schooling or not-schooling, they are, needless to say,
parenting. For a fast track on unschooling, I believe you will learn more
from books by John Holt than from any other source.

Nevertheless, this list has recently discussed the idea of un-preschooling,
and it seemed to me that it was a good subject for a few new books to help
new parents prepare for unschooling as a way of life. Maybe you could write
one of them, as you learn from your babies.

Ned Vare
ps you sure are right about the tone here -- Holt will be a welcome relief

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/26/02 11:40:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
nedvare@... writes:
> In all seriousness, with kids age 2 and less that 1 year, your immediate
> concerns are not schooling or not-schooling, they are, needless to say,
> parenting.

I disagree...schooling is part of parenting -- no matter what kind of
schooling your child gets you can't seperate the two...Of course I know that
my children's immediate needs need to be taken care of. However, I belong to
email lists that support the type of parent I want to be. I don't expect to
post here about the fact that my 10 month old woke up 8 times last night.
However, to say that because my children are younger means I shouldn't be
concerned with their schooling is absolutely inaccurate.

In the area that I live, there are waiting lists a year in advance for the
"right" preschool. There is legislation being promoted to make preschool
mandatory. There are 3 yr waiting lists for the "right" (private) elementary
schools. If I were to send my child to preschool and elementary school I'd
be making those plans now...with my 2 1/2 yr old for next year as we would be
paying for private school. Why shouldn't I make the same plans and get ideas
now for unschooling?

Furthermore, at what age then do I "begin" unschooling if my children never
go to schoool? It only applies when they are 5 or 6? You can't unschool a 2
yr old? From what I understand, unschooling is about allowing your child to
progress and be interested in things at his own pace. Maybe I should fill his
days with swimming lessons and gymboree and art classes and gymnastics and
foreign language like so many of my friends instead of being home with him
all day. Maybe I should be prepping him for preschool interviews.

Formal school education is starting younger and younger. Parents are
terribly afraid that if they don't give their children the right start even
before preschool age they may never catch up. I find myself constantly doing
mental gymnastics..."Andrew is smart for his age...should I teach him to
read?" "Maybe he should go to preschool just to play with other kids" and on
and on.

So forgive me if the advice to just let your child play doesn't quite get it
for me. Maybe it is the world I move in but education is not simply
relegated to the "I'll think about it when he turns four" catagory anymore.
Most of the children my son's age (yes he's 2 and 4 months) are already in
some type of program. And these are not daycare children but ones with stay
at home moms. I'm already doing something unusual by not making those plans.

When my boys are older I will hopefully take your advice about a book about
unschooling...but not just about preschool (although that is an intriguing
idea)...rather for those who never sent their children to school to begin
with.
Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo


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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/02 4:44:49 PM, winnierfm@... writes:

<< I disagree...schooling is part of parenting -- >>

Unschoolers don't "school" though.

<< Why shouldn't I make the same plans and get ideas
now for unschooling?>>

Because unschooling is not like going to private school.
It's like NOT going to school. And not bringing school home.

<<Furthermore, at what age then do I "begin" unschooling if my children never
go to schoool? It only applies when they are 5 or 6? You can't unschool a 2
yr old? >>

There are different theories. If you have a stimulating home and a good
relationship with your baby, that's wonderful whether or not he will go to
school later, and he will learn more and more happily if you care and really
be WITH him in all kinds of ways.

But many parents of pre-schoolers destined for school do that with their
children too.

<<Maybe I should fill his
days with swimming lessons and gymboree and art classes and gymnastics and
foreign language like so many of my friends instead of being home with him
all day. Maybe I should be prepping him for preschool interviews.>>

I don't think anyone's saying that. But if you think of yourself as
"schooling" him it will be more difficult to be comfortable NOT schooling him.

Words have power.

<<So forgive me if the advice to just let your child play doesn't quite get
it
for me. >>

I've always just let my children play, and they're 10, 13 and 16. I play
with them. We play at the grocery store, we play with ideas, we play with
music and words and tools.

<<When my boys are older I will hopefully take your advice about a book about
unschooling...but not just about preschool (although that is an intriguing
idea)...rather for those who never sent their children to school to begin
with.>>

Advice about reading a book? (You didn't quote anything about a book.)

Reading a book now would probably be good. The way children learn later is
the way they learn when they're younger. Knowing more about learning
couldn't possibly hurt .

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/02 6:41:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Advice about reading a book? (You didn't quote anything about a book.)

Writing a preschooling "unschooling" book had been the suggestion.

"I don't think anyone's saying that. But if you think of yourself as
"schooling" him it will be more difficult to be comfortable NOT schooling
him. "

I think you missed my point here...I don't think in terms of schooling them
especially for preschool (maybe I should have said learning.) But all of the
people I'm surrounded by IRL are actively pursuing their children's education
even at the age of 2. So for someone to say that I shouldn't be concerned
with education (or schooling vs. unschooling as the original post referred
to) because of my children's age is a bit disconcerting. I'm trying to learn
what unschooling is exactly and how it works in day to day life...I've read
more books than anyone could possibly imagine about how and why babies and
children learn. I know my children are not going to school. The question
now is what is the best way for them to learn from home. I discovered this
list from reading Unschooling books and from parenting lists. The idea of
natural learning is the best I've learned about...which only makes sense
seeing as how it is natural. I do have idea of the basics but now I hope to
see how it works in people's real lives. My instinct however great
unschooling sounds would be more lesson based. So I want to change my
thinking before they get older...I don't want to wait until they are "school
aged."

My point then was this: Even though my children are young I feel like I can
learn from this list. So that when they get to be 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 it won't
feel strange to continue on the way we have been all along. I would hate to
feel that since I don't need to be concerned (therefore don't belong??) with
it now I can just forget about it and come back in 3 yrs.

Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo


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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/02 10:29:43 PM, winnierfm@... writes:

<< I think you missed my point here...I don't think in terms of schooling
them
especially for preschool (maybe I should have said learning.) >>

That was my own point.
You can't keep a two year old from learning.
It does not good to talk or think about "schooling" him.

<< I do have idea of the basics but now I hope to
see how it works in people's real lives. >>

How's it working in YOUR real life? Don't the kids learn from playing?

<< I would hate to
feel that since I don't need to be concerned (therefore don't belong??) with
it now I can just forget about it and come back in 3 yrs.>>

The point wasn't you didn't need to be concerned with their learning, but
that you didn't need to be concerned with the relationship to school, or
schooling, or UNschooling. School doesn't ever need to be a factor for them
if they never go to school, but you seem perhaps to be living in the ghostly
structure of a school.

If you try to avoid "school" and "teach" you'll be a lot closer to "home" and
"learn."

Sandra

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>
>My point then was this: Even though my children are young I feel like I can
>learn from this list. So that when they get to be 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 it won't
>feel strange to continue on the way we have been all along. I would hate to
>feel that since I don't need to be concerned (therefore don't belong??) with
>it now I can just forget about it and come back in 3 yrs.

Stick around, Tanya. I think it might have been Ned that got you confused
about that. He seemed to be deliberately muddying the waters about what's
unschooling and what's parenting in order to further his agenda.
There was some talk a while back about whether parents of kids younger than
school age should call themselves unschoolers. I think that's because of
people who say they're unschooling their preschoolers and then send them
off to school. I considered myself an unschooler when my son was preschool
age. (I didn't realize then that I didn't quite "get it", but that's
another story.) I don't think anything really changes when a child reaches
school age if the parents are commited to helping the child learn what he
wants to learn.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/28/02 1:34:17 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
leschke@... writes:
> There was some talk a while back about whether parents of kids younger than
> school age should call themselves unschoolers. I think that's because of
> people who say they're unschooling their preschoolers and then send them
> off to school.

I'll admit the thought did cross my mind once or twice....keep em out of
preschool and then send them to Montessori or Waldorf schools...but then I
read the Unschooling Handbook.

However, here is an interesting story (its kind of long but it does have to
do with unschooling at the end): On a parenting list I'm on we all have
children born in 4/2000. A discussion started about TV and videos and how
much to let them watch. I forwarded the link about video games from Mary's
article (which I absolutely loved!) So everyone agreed with that article --
which astonished me. Then I mentioned the rest of Sandra's website and how
it talks about unschooling. There are several other mothers there who are
planning on homeschooling.

Well, now the talk is all about how "unschooling" is what you do with your
kids after they get out of school. A post said: I plan to supplement my
children's education with "unschooling" projects from home. HUH???? Where
did they ever get that idea? Then the talk moved to letting a child have
control over their learning is creating problems for adults. Plus, it's
irresponsible in thier minds. One mother said she wasn't "qualified" to
teach her children herself.

So my point is: I can see how the terms can be bandied about and misuesd by
those who don't know what true unschooling is. However, I do think you can
"unschool" a preschooler...especially when the kid who doesn't go to
preschool or be involved in structured activities is getting rare.

I will tell you all this though: we are moving on Friday...Andrew has
learned so much from this...how much will fit in a box, how will it fit if
you put it in neat vs. messy, how things like tvs and vcrs get unconnected, a
little can fits in that hole but a big one doesn't ect. These things when
they happen, and I notice, are the things that convince me that unschooling
is the best and right thing. (And just wait till the movers get here!)

I feel like I'm getting him off to the right start now...I just need to
continue always doing what I am. And somehow get the what if's out of my
mind (at least for the most part :)

Tanya
mom to Andrew Jordan 4/1/00 and Eli Hunter 10/29/01
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within
himself
--Galileo


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Bill and Diane

Yeah! That's unschooling! And yes, it is harder in some ways for those
of us with younger kids, because we get "well, duh!" sounding responses
sometimes, when we voice our concerns with younger ones.

Many of the veterans don't have experience with unschooling younger
ones, because they didn't catch on until at least some of their kids had
gone to school. So they may have some trouble identifying with some of
the concerns.

I come from a very "teacherly" family and was noticing myself one day
thinking "no, you have to write it like THIS" when ds was writing an "o"
starting at the bottom, not the top. Then I caught myself and thought,
no, I don't have to do it the way that will best prepare him for school.
I can just say "terrifc!" to him and go on.

:-) Diane

>I will tell you all this though: we are moving on Friday...Andrew has
>learned so much from this...how much will fit in a box, how will it fit if
>you put it in neat vs. messy, how things like tvs and vcrs get unconnected, a
>little can fits in that hole but a big one doesn't ect. These things when
>they happen, and I notice, are the things that convince me that unschooling
>is the best and right thing. (And just wait till the movers get here!)
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/12/02 4:29:37 AM, cen46624@... writes:

<< Many of the veterans don't have experience with unschooling younger
ones, because they didn't catch on until at least some of their kids had
gone to school. >>

Most of the veterans DO have experience with younger ones, either from not
having sent their kids to school at all, or only having sent the first one
for a little while.

And though some people are from places (Delaware, Maryland) where
pre-kindergarten classes are seen as mandatory by their neighbors and
relatives, many of us are from places like New Mexico where kindergarten is
only lately required, or from states where it's not required at all. So in
such places, the way children are treated until they're "schoolage" is the
same as unschooling entirely.

I didn't consider myself to be unschooling any child until the day the state
expected him to be in school and didn't go. But the things we did with Kirby
were no different than we would have done if he had been going to school.
Knowing the boredom problems kids have who go to school already knowing what
school's going to drag them through (repeatedly) I was in NO hurry to teach
him anything fancy. He was learning for fun, and then didn't go to school,
so there was no break in routine.

I know the arguments for and against people "unschooling" babies and toddlers
and when kids don't go to school I don't really care whether the parents
claim to have been unschooling them since nine months before birth or not.
But if anyone says "we unschooled him until he was five and he went to
kindergarten," or "we unschool him when he's not in nursery school" or "After
daycare, he's unschooled," then I think it's nonsense.

So there's the problem, for me. If a child isn't yet schoolage, the
difference between unschooling and just not being in school yet would,
ideally, be no difference at all.

Sandra

Sandra