What is UNschooling ?
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
There's a lot of talk about what to talk about lately.
When was the last time anyone posted something here that was actually about
UNschooling? I can't remember it. Our list owners and managers and wanna-be
managers keep asking us to talk about unschooling, and stop talking about
other things, and those "other things" seem to depend on the whims of those
managers. My two or three months here should be enough for me to get an idea
what is acceptable, but I still have no idea, because the managers keep
moving and removing the goalposts.
The problem is that UNschooling starts with "un." Unschooling is not
something that we DO; it's something that we DON"T DO, and it inevitably
involves WHY we don't do it. School is the elephant in the middle of our
room, andaccording to the managers, we're not supposed to talk about it.
Hmmm
We don't do school because we believe it is bad for our kids, and because we
believe we can give them a better experience than the schools can. But now,
to talk about WHY that is true is not acceptable because it just might
involve comparisons between what we do and what schools do to children, and
we are admonished from hurting anyone's feelings or pointing out how school
people, even though some are well-meaning, are damaging children every day
of their working lives while telling us that what they do is "for the
children." It seems obvious to me that if they really wanted to do something
for the children, they would change the schools or quit working for them.
But they do not.
So we have a problem here. Ours is a "negative practice." It's NOT-
schooling. So how does one talk about NOT-schooling without mentioning
schooling? Lately, many posts, from the list managers in particular, have
complained that the conversation is NOT about unschooling, but even they
have not contributed examples of what they want us to talk about. The reason
is that there is really not much we can talk about because of that "UN." If
all this list is about is talking about what we did today as parents, we
might as well change the name to Parenting.com and leave it at that.
I even got blasted because someone thought I called this a "support group"
even when I didn't. "It's a discussion group," she said. I have to ask,
What do support groups do? They discuss issues relevant to an activity. That
makes this a support group, doesn't it? Today, one poster even said that she
gets "support" from this list. Is there anyone who doesn't? So why the
hassle about calling it what it is - a support group?
Is this really "School-anon."? Is it for school rehab...a place for people
who are trying to kick school to come for ideas about NOT-schooling. Is this
a list for newbies to come to have their hand held by experienced
school-anoners to help them get through another day? Or is it a focus group
of some kind, considering the pros and cons of various degrees of schooling?
Can that exist as a discussion group without some discussion about how to
keep and maintain the right to do it? We hear from unschoolers every day,
yes on this list, who are hassled by their local school district. Are we not
to talk about that? Are we not supposed to offer them suggestions about
dealing with corrupt and dishonest superintendents and principals? Those
situations are part of why we are all here...we are in the process of
escaping from them and hoping that we can create a world in which our
children will not be required to fight so hard for their own rights in
raising their kids in peace.
When we remove the one thing -- school -- that was, for virtually all of us,
the central focus of our lives (outside of home) as we grew up, most of us
feel a huge void. If we can't talk about the school we left behind and why
we reject it, we can't talk about much. Unschooling doesn't give us much to
talk about other than trying to raise our kids one day at a time. The idea
is NOT to do to our kids what the school system did to us -- waste a lot of
our youths.
We have trouble imagining our lives without having gone to school all those
twenty thousand hours and being preoccupied with it for most of the rest of
our youths. And we can't talk about unschooling outside the context of our
own school experiences. It will take another generation to be free of the
monkey on our backs. Our kids will take the baton from us and talk
coherently about unschooling because they will not be schooled half to
death, as we have been. They will know the freedom. We cannot.
We can only try to imagine it.
Try an analogy: If this were a group devoted to UNreligion, could we talk
about being unreligious without the context of religion? I believe it is the
same with schooling. Can we imagine asking a minister for permission to
become unreligious? Could we talk about not having a god without discussing
what that is?
Even though the homeschooling revival has been going strong for over twenty
years, most people engaged in it are "new" to it, and most of them, like I
did at first, feel as though they are pioneering, going against a flood,
surely breaking some law even if they can't find one.
There are calls to "move on" but to what? Will they tell us? My own grief
for my kids damaged by school has made me devote myself to helping others
escape that same damage. Yes, my kids were hurt twenty years ago, but the
schools are just as terrible today, if not worse, so how are we supposed to
"move on"? Some people here seem terrified by the schools they have just
escaped. Are they supposed to simply "move on"? How do you mean that?
"Talk about UNschooling !" comes the demand. There is little about
unschooling that can be talked about in the strict confines of the request.
Everyone in the practice of unschooling deals with the restrictions placed
on us by the school system, the state, the "children and families" agencies,
even pressures from neighbors and relatives. Those are the subjects that a
list like this rightly addresses, and until homeschooling stands on firmer
legal ground, and unschooling is much better understood and accepted, the
members will be plagued by those forces, and yes, they damned well need this
to be their support group.
So let's hear from the leaders...Talk about Unschooling.
Ned Vare
PS Unschool: Live your life as though there were no such thing as school.
And, if you will, do what you can to make schools mind their own business
instead of yours.
When was the last time anyone posted something here that was actually about
UNschooling? I can't remember it. Our list owners and managers and wanna-be
managers keep asking us to talk about unschooling, and stop talking about
other things, and those "other things" seem to depend on the whims of those
managers. My two or three months here should be enough for me to get an idea
what is acceptable, but I still have no idea, because the managers keep
moving and removing the goalposts.
The problem is that UNschooling starts with "un." Unschooling is not
something that we DO; it's something that we DON"T DO, and it inevitably
involves WHY we don't do it. School is the elephant in the middle of our
room, andaccording to the managers, we're not supposed to talk about it.
Hmmm
We don't do school because we believe it is bad for our kids, and because we
believe we can give them a better experience than the schools can. But now,
to talk about WHY that is true is not acceptable because it just might
involve comparisons between what we do and what schools do to children, and
we are admonished from hurting anyone's feelings or pointing out how school
people, even though some are well-meaning, are damaging children every day
of their working lives while telling us that what they do is "for the
children." It seems obvious to me that if they really wanted to do something
for the children, they would change the schools or quit working for them.
But they do not.
So we have a problem here. Ours is a "negative practice." It's NOT-
schooling. So how does one talk about NOT-schooling without mentioning
schooling? Lately, many posts, from the list managers in particular, have
complained that the conversation is NOT about unschooling, but even they
have not contributed examples of what they want us to talk about. The reason
is that there is really not much we can talk about because of that "UN." If
all this list is about is talking about what we did today as parents, we
might as well change the name to Parenting.com and leave it at that.
I even got blasted because someone thought I called this a "support group"
even when I didn't. "It's a discussion group," she said. I have to ask,
What do support groups do? They discuss issues relevant to an activity. That
makes this a support group, doesn't it? Today, one poster even said that she
gets "support" from this list. Is there anyone who doesn't? So why the
hassle about calling it what it is - a support group?
Is this really "School-anon."? Is it for school rehab...a place for people
who are trying to kick school to come for ideas about NOT-schooling. Is this
a list for newbies to come to have their hand held by experienced
school-anoners to help them get through another day? Or is it a focus group
of some kind, considering the pros and cons of various degrees of schooling?
Can that exist as a discussion group without some discussion about how to
keep and maintain the right to do it? We hear from unschoolers every day,
yes on this list, who are hassled by their local school district. Are we not
to talk about that? Are we not supposed to offer them suggestions about
dealing with corrupt and dishonest superintendents and principals? Those
situations are part of why we are all here...we are in the process of
escaping from them and hoping that we can create a world in which our
children will not be required to fight so hard for their own rights in
raising their kids in peace.
When we remove the one thing -- school -- that was, for virtually all of us,
the central focus of our lives (outside of home) as we grew up, most of us
feel a huge void. If we can't talk about the school we left behind and why
we reject it, we can't talk about much. Unschooling doesn't give us much to
talk about other than trying to raise our kids one day at a time. The idea
is NOT to do to our kids what the school system did to us -- waste a lot of
our youths.
We have trouble imagining our lives without having gone to school all those
twenty thousand hours and being preoccupied with it for most of the rest of
our youths. And we can't talk about unschooling outside the context of our
own school experiences. It will take another generation to be free of the
monkey on our backs. Our kids will take the baton from us and talk
coherently about unschooling because they will not be schooled half to
death, as we have been. They will know the freedom. We cannot.
We can only try to imagine it.
Try an analogy: If this were a group devoted to UNreligion, could we talk
about being unreligious without the context of religion? I believe it is the
same with schooling. Can we imagine asking a minister for permission to
become unreligious? Could we talk about not having a god without discussing
what that is?
Even though the homeschooling revival has been going strong for over twenty
years, most people engaged in it are "new" to it, and most of them, like I
did at first, feel as though they are pioneering, going against a flood,
surely breaking some law even if they can't find one.
There are calls to "move on" but to what? Will they tell us? My own grief
for my kids damaged by school has made me devote myself to helping others
escape that same damage. Yes, my kids were hurt twenty years ago, but the
schools are just as terrible today, if not worse, so how are we supposed to
"move on"? Some people here seem terrified by the schools they have just
escaped. Are they supposed to simply "move on"? How do you mean that?
"Talk about UNschooling !" comes the demand. There is little about
unschooling that can be talked about in the strict confines of the request.
Everyone in the practice of unschooling deals with the restrictions placed
on us by the school system, the state, the "children and families" agencies,
even pressures from neighbors and relatives. Those are the subjects that a
list like this rightly addresses, and until homeschooling stands on firmer
legal ground, and unschooling is much better understood and accepted, the
members will be plagued by those forces, and yes, they damned well need this
to be their support group.
So let's hear from the leaders...Talk about Unschooling.
Ned Vare
PS Unschool: Live your life as though there were no such thing as school.
And, if you will, do what you can to make schools mind their own business
instead of yours.
[email protected]
Oh Ned, Be quiet.
Listen to this list for a while, let the current discussions move on and
*really listen* to the ones that spring up in their place. Hear the voice of
unschooling-dotcom.
Stop trying to tell us what we should be talking about and listen to what we
ARE talking about.
If you don't like it, then find another list. You're on so many already,
what is this one piddly little (in a manner of speaking) list to you? Why is
it so important that we all do it your way?
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160
Listen to this list for a while, let the current discussions move on and
*really listen* to the ones that spring up in their place. Hear the voice of
unschooling-dotcom.
Stop trying to tell us what we should be talking about and listen to what we
ARE talking about.
If you don't like it, then find another list. You're on so many already,
what is this one piddly little (in a manner of speaking) list to you? Why is
it so important that we all do it your way?
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160
Tia Leschke
>At last, something sensible.
>Ned Vare
>PS Unschool: Live your life as though there were no such thing as school.
Tia
What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Gerard Westenberg
<When was the last time anyone posted something here that was actually about UNschooling? >
Goodness - I'm relatively new but I've posted about movies, computer games and ensuing discussions in our family, dinosaurs crazes, playing cards with my kids, reading pirate related books - all part of our life and unschooling. I thought I was ON topic...Leonie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Goodness - I'm relatively new but I've posted about movies, computer games and ensuing discussions in our family, dinosaurs crazes, playing cards with my kids, reading pirate related books - all part of our life and unschooling. I thought I was ON topic...Leonie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/02 7:11:03 PM, nedvare@... writes:
-=-It seems obvious to me that if they really wanted to do something
for the children, they would change the schools or quit working for them.
But they do not.-=-
I did. You did. Lots of others did.
Once again you're making a false statement for the effect you hope it will
have.
-=-So how does one talk about NOT-schooling without mentioning schooling?-=-
Joyfully. Frequently! Lovingly. Positively. Encouragingly.
Don't tell us no posts have been about unschooling unless you're admitting
you don't know what unschooling is.
The rhetoric is rhetoric.
-=-If all this list is about is talking about what we did today as parents, we
might as well change the name to Parenting.com and leave it at that.-=-
If all this list is about is talking about what we did today as unschooling
parents, then it is serving a REALLY useful purpose, and should be called
unschooling-dotcom as it has been since the day it was founded.
-=-We hear from unschoolers every day,
yes on this list, who are hassled by their local school district.-=-
Not every day.
Not hassled.
We have people asking how to deal with some state's requirements.
This list isn't for discussing local school districts. Local lists are for
that.
-=-Are we not supposed to offer them suggestions about
dealing with corrupt and dishonest superintendents and principals? -=-
No. We're not. We're supposed to help them be with their children
peacefully and to find natural learning in their everyday lives.
You can't even write about schools without adding "corrupt and dishonest" (or
worse) and so you're not helping people learn to be with their children
peacefully and to find natural learning in their everyday lives.
-=-When we remove the one thing -- school -- that was, for virtually all of
us,
the central focus of our lives (outside of home) as we grew up, most of us
feel a huge void. -=-
Ned, mothers with kids at home do NOT have a huge void in their lives.
Mothers with children in school have a huge void. When the kids are home
their lives are FILLED with life and love and busy activities and worries and
problems and solutions and songs and most of them don't have time to think
about school, and it wouldn't help them if they did.
-=-If we can't talk about the school we left behind and why
we reject it, we can't talk about much.-=-
It seems you're saying "we" when you mean to say "If I can't talk about the
school I left behind I can't talk about much."
The rest of us were doing fine before you came ranting about schools.
-=-Unschooling doesn't give us much to
talk about other than trying to raise our kids one day at a time. -=-
That's all we need to do, those of us with children, is to find good ways to
find trust and contentment and peace with our children one moment at a time.
Taking part of that energy from our children and aiming it toward the schools
we left does not help unschoolers in their daily lives.
-=-The idea is NOT to do to our kids what the school system did to us -- w
aste a lot of our youths.-=-
Yes. We're not wasting their youths. We shouldn't waste our energy going to
school board meetings and nursing outrage either.
-=-And we can't talk about unschooling outside the context of our
own school experiences. It will take another generation to be free of the
monkey on our backs.-=-
Or you can just say "monkey, I rebuke thee," and go about your life without
talking about school.
-=-They will know the freedom. We cannot.
-=-We can only try to imagine it.-=-
Ned. You're speaking for over 800 people here, and you're speaking falsely.
You can be free when you decide to be free. You can stop obsessing about
school right after you stop obsessing.
-=-Some people here seem terrified by the schools they have just
escaped. Are they supposed to simply "move on"? How do you mean that?-=-
We've been offering suggestions every day, but because it just seems like
parenting to you, you ignore it. They move on by being with their children,
REALLY with their children, in the moment, now. And since they are not NOW
in school, school is not part of their now.
-=-Everyone in the practice of unschooling deals with the restrictions placed
on us by the school system, the state, the "children and families"
agencies,-=-
This is as wrong as flying dog shit.
Sandra
-=-It seems obvious to me that if they really wanted to do something
for the children, they would change the schools or quit working for them.
But they do not.-=-
I did. You did. Lots of others did.
Once again you're making a false statement for the effect you hope it will
have.
-=-So how does one talk about NOT-schooling without mentioning schooling?-=-
Joyfully. Frequently! Lovingly. Positively. Encouragingly.
Don't tell us no posts have been about unschooling unless you're admitting
you don't know what unschooling is.
The rhetoric is rhetoric.
-=-If all this list is about is talking about what we did today as parents, we
might as well change the name to Parenting.com and leave it at that.-=-
If all this list is about is talking about what we did today as unschooling
parents, then it is serving a REALLY useful purpose, and should be called
unschooling-dotcom as it has been since the day it was founded.
-=-We hear from unschoolers every day,
yes on this list, who are hassled by their local school district.-=-
Not every day.
Not hassled.
We have people asking how to deal with some state's requirements.
This list isn't for discussing local school districts. Local lists are for
that.
-=-Are we not supposed to offer them suggestions about
dealing with corrupt and dishonest superintendents and principals? -=-
No. We're not. We're supposed to help them be with their children
peacefully and to find natural learning in their everyday lives.
You can't even write about schools without adding "corrupt and dishonest" (or
worse) and so you're not helping people learn to be with their children
peacefully and to find natural learning in their everyday lives.
-=-When we remove the one thing -- school -- that was, for virtually all of
us,
the central focus of our lives (outside of home) as we grew up, most of us
feel a huge void. -=-
Ned, mothers with kids at home do NOT have a huge void in their lives.
Mothers with children in school have a huge void. When the kids are home
their lives are FILLED with life and love and busy activities and worries and
problems and solutions and songs and most of them don't have time to think
about school, and it wouldn't help them if they did.
-=-If we can't talk about the school we left behind and why
we reject it, we can't talk about much.-=-
It seems you're saying "we" when you mean to say "If I can't talk about the
school I left behind I can't talk about much."
The rest of us were doing fine before you came ranting about schools.
-=-Unschooling doesn't give us much to
talk about other than trying to raise our kids one day at a time. -=-
That's all we need to do, those of us with children, is to find good ways to
find trust and contentment and peace with our children one moment at a time.
Taking part of that energy from our children and aiming it toward the schools
we left does not help unschoolers in their daily lives.
-=-The idea is NOT to do to our kids what the school system did to us -- w
aste a lot of our youths.-=-
Yes. We're not wasting their youths. We shouldn't waste our energy going to
school board meetings and nursing outrage either.
-=-And we can't talk about unschooling outside the context of our
own school experiences. It will take another generation to be free of the
monkey on our backs.-=-
Or you can just say "monkey, I rebuke thee," and go about your life without
talking about school.
-=-They will know the freedom. We cannot.
-=-We can only try to imagine it.-=-
Ned. You're speaking for over 800 people here, and you're speaking falsely.
You can be free when you decide to be free. You can stop obsessing about
school right after you stop obsessing.
-=-Some people here seem terrified by the schools they have just
escaped. Are they supposed to simply "move on"? How do you mean that?-=-
We've been offering suggestions every day, but because it just seems like
parenting to you, you ignore it. They move on by being with their children,
REALLY with their children, in the moment, now. And since they are not NOW
in school, school is not part of their now.
-=-Everyone in the practice of unschooling deals with the restrictions placed
on us by the school system, the state, the "children and families"
agencies,-=-
This is as wrong as flying dog shit.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/02 8:20:11 PM, westen@... writes:
<< Goodness - I'm relatively new but I've posted about movies, computer games
and ensuing discussions in our family, dinosaurs crazes, playing cards with
my kids, reading pirate related books - all part of our life and unschooling.
I thought I was ON topic...Leonie
Ned doesn't read other people's posts, it seems.
He certainly doesn't answer other people's direct questions.
(Ned, if you've read this far, I'd like details on the Utah dad you claim was
killed for his kids being truant. Either details or a retraction. Thanks.)
Sandra
<< Goodness - I'm relatively new but I've posted about movies, computer games
and ensuing discussions in our family, dinosaurs crazes, playing cards with
my kids, reading pirate related books - all part of our life and unschooling.
I thought I was ON topic...Leonie
>>Leonie, you were!
Ned doesn't read other people's posts, it seems.
He certainly doesn't answer other people's direct questions.
(Ned, if you've read this far, I'd like details on the Utah dad you claim was
killed for his kids being truant. Either details or a retraction. Thanks.)
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>Well Sandra, I agree with everything else, but I *have* seen flying dog
>This is as wrong as flying dog shit.
shit . . . when hucking it out of the yard and into the bush with a
shovel. <g>
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Gerard Westenberg
<,I thought I was ON topic...Leonie
Thanks - I thought I was way off , being here and posting about every day stuff! :-) You've reassured me..Leonie, who is loving unschooling andl has learned to let go of "relaxed homneschooling"..this list and the unschool.com board gave me the oomph earlier this year..
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>><,Leonie, you were!>>
Thanks - I thought I was way off , being here and posting about every day stuff! :-) You've reassured me..Leonie, who is loving unschooling andl has learned to let go of "relaxed homneschooling"..this list and the unschool.com board gave me the oomph earlier this year..
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/25/02 9:10 PM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
(which is a more accurate way of describing it) for this list is that you
don't have a child at home, Ned. The day to day stuff, the details of living
of unschooling, the working towads unschooling that concerns the people who
come here looking for help isn't a concern of yours.
Since I'm guessing this lengthy post with it's direct questions to me is in
response to direct questions asked of you and since I'm getting irritated
that my direct questions aren't being answered directly but are getting
these round about political style answers, I will directly address each of
your points later in the day after I take care of the day to day stuff of
being with my daughter and helping her learn.
Joyce
> My two or three months here should be enough for me to get an ideaI think the reason you're having problems figuring out what is "on topic"
> what is acceptable, but I still have no idea, because the managers keep
> moving and removing the goalposts.
(which is a more accurate way of describing it) for this list is that you
don't have a child at home, Ned. The day to day stuff, the details of living
of unschooling, the working towads unschooling that concerns the people who
come here looking for help isn't a concern of yours.
Since I'm guessing this lengthy post with it's direct questions to me is in
response to direct questions asked of you and since I'm getting irritated
that my direct questions aren't being answered directly but are getting
these round about political style answers, I will directly address each of
your points later in the day after I take care of the day to day stuff of
being with my daughter and helping her learn.
Joyce
[email protected]
<<Leonie, who is loving unschooling andl has learned to let go of "relaxed
homneschooling"..this list and the unschool.com board gave me the oomph
earlier this year..>>
Great!! That's exactly what this list is for!!!
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160
homneschooling"..this list and the unschool.com board gave me the oomph
earlier this year..>>
Great!! That's exactly what this list is for!!!
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160
kayb85
Our list owners and managers and wanna-be
out of trouble by not agreeing with you too much. ;) However, I
can't stay quiet anymore. I really enjoy a lot of the brilliant
thinkers on this list, but there is a hostility here. People who
don't fit the mold in every aspect really aren't liked very much.
It's very sad. There is also a lot of coercion involved, something
that I've been told unschoolers generally don't use, but they seem to
do it with posters on this list.
message boards will be filled with a lot less anti-school talk when
our kids are parents and posting on them. Well, unless the laws
don't improve. If laws don't improve they will still have some
reason to have a strong distaste for schools as the schools try to
control their days.
That is a wonderful quote.
often don't want to discuss the politics of unschooling? Or maybe
people want to pretend like the taking of our tax dollars to pay for
other people's kids third-rate education is ok? Like if you don't
think about it it doesn't exist?
Sheila
> managers keep asking us to talk about unschooling, and stop talkingabout
> other things, and those "other things" seem to depend on the whimsof those
> managers.I agree with so much of what you write Ned, and I've tried to stay
out of trouble by not agreeing with you too much. ;) However, I
can't stay quiet anymore. I really enjoy a lot of the brilliant
thinkers on this list, but there is a hostility here. People who
don't fit the mold in every aspect really aren't liked very much.
It's very sad. There is also a lot of coercion involved, something
that I've been told unschoolers generally don't use, but they seem to
do it with posters on this list.
> We have trouble imagining our lives without having gone to schoolall those
> twenty thousand hours and being preoccupied with it for most of therest of
> our youths. And we can't talk about unschooling outside the contextof our
> own school experiences. It will take another generation to be freeof the
> monkey on our backs. Our kids will take the baton from us and talkto
> coherently about unschooling because they will not be schooled half
> death, as we have been. They will know the freedom. We cannot.That is a beautiful thought. :) And you are right, unschooling
message boards will be filled with a lot less anti-school talk when
our kids are parents and posting on them. Well, unless the laws
don't improve. If laws don't improve they will still have some
reason to have a strong distaste for schools as the schools try to
control their days.
> PS Unschool: Live your life as though there were no such thing asschool.
That is a wonderful quote.
> And, if you will, do what you can to make schools mind their ownbusiness
> instead of yours.I think maybe that it's the people living in the freer states who
often don't want to discuss the politics of unschooling? Or maybe
people want to pretend like the taking of our tax dollars to pay for
other people's kids third-rate education is ok? Like if you don't
think about it it doesn't exist?
Sheila
kayb85
> You can't even write about schools without adding "corrupt anddishonest" (or
> worse) and so you're not helping people learn to be with theirchildren
> peacefully and to find natural learning in their everyday lives.I suppose that depends on how you define "peace". Is peace just
blissfully pretending that the corrupt, dishonest schools don't
affect us? That people aren't being reported to children and youth
because their kids are never in school? (And yes, this does happen.
This just happened to a friend of mine, this weekend.)
I think peace means looking at all the bad and all the good, knowing
that we are ok with the choices we have made, but still being willing
to hope for more of the bad to be made good. It means looking at the
very bad and being glad that we have the very good. For us, that
means being very ok with our decision to unschool but being willing
to hope that school, the antithesis of unschool, will some day go
away. It means looking at the very bad (school) and being glad that
we have the very good (unschool).
> -=-When we remove the one thing -- school -- that was, forvirtually all of
> us,most of us
> the central focus of our lives (outside of home) as we grew up,
> feel a huge void. -=-lives.
>
> Ned, mothers with kids at home do NOT have a huge void in their
> Mothers with children in school have a huge void. When the kidsare home
> their lives are FILLED with life and love and busy activities andworries and
> problems and solutions and songs and most of them don't have timeto think
> about school, and it wouldn't help them if they did.Do you really not know what he means here? Of course none of us are
lounging around wishing we had something to do. ;) Our lives are
very full and happy and joyful now. But it is possible to have a
full life now and still have that longing that we would have had the
same as children. That someone would have known how happy we could
have been if we hadn't had to do hours of homework every night and
spend so much time doing stuff we hated. That void is the longing
for a different kind of childhood. We can come to terms with that
void. We can accept that what we now know to be the best is
something we can give to our children but our childhood is over and
was never filled with the joys of unschooling. We can find peace
with accepting that and move on, but the fact that the void was there
will always remain.
We shouldn't waste our energy going to
> school board meetings and nursing outrage either.Well, I don't think we should nurse outrage, but I think going to
school board meetings and being politically active is a very good
thing if we want our kids to have the freedom to unschool their kids.
> We've been offering suggestions every day, but because it justseems like
> parenting to you, you ignore it. They move on by being with theirchildren,
> REALLY with their children, in the moment, now. And since they arenot NOW
> in school, school is not part of their now.And some of that advice has been SO helpful to me. However, don't we
also have to plan for our future? If, right now, I see a chance to
get a better law, shouldn't I do something, right now, to help my
children's future? I guarantee the NEA is doing what they can to take
away the future of homeschooling.
> -=-Everyone in the practice of unschooling deals with therestrictions placed
> on us by the school system, the state, the "children and families"You talk about joyful, peaceful, and encouraging. That statement
> agencies,-=-
>
> This is as wrong as flying dog shit.
doesn't sound like any of those things to me. It sounds full of
anger and resentment, the very thing you're preaching against.
ALL of us deal with the restrictions put on us by the local school
system or state. Those of you blessed enough to live in a free-er
state live with the free-er restrictions your state allows you.
Those of us who don't live in a free state live with less free
restrictions. But we all have to do whatever the laws dictate that
we do. And children and youth will follow up on all kinds of
anonymous tips. I know someone who had a complaint against her
because a neighbor thought they ate too much take out, so their kids
must not be getting many healthy home-cooked meals. She is now
scared to order pizza.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/02 11:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:
have said it better.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> > You can't even write about schools without adding "corrupt andHooray for Sheila and her wonderful, well thought out response!!! I couldn't
> dishonest" (or
> > worse) and so you're not helping people learn to be with their
> children
> > peacefully and to find natural learning in their everyday lives.
>
>
> I suppose that depends on how you define "peace". Is peace just
> blissfully pretending that the corrupt, dishonest schools don't
> affect us? That people aren't being reported to children and youth
> because their kids are never in school? (And yes, this does happen.
> This just happened to a friend of mine, this weekend.)
>
> I think peace means looking at all the bad and all the good, knowing
> that we are ok with the choices we have made, but still being willing
> to hope for more of the bad to be made good. It means looking at the
> very bad and being glad that we have the very good. For us, that
> means being very ok with our decision to unschool but being willing
> to hope that school, the antithesis of unschool, will some day go
> away. It means looking at the very bad (school) and being glad that
> we have the very good (unschool).
>
>
> > -=-When we remove the one thing -- school -- that was, for
> virtually all of
> > us,
> > the central focus of our lives (outside of home) as we grew up,
> most of us
> > feel a huge void. -=-
> >
> > Ned, mothers with kids at home do NOT have a huge void in their
> lives.
> > Mothers with children in school have a huge void. When the kids
> are home
> > their lives are FILLED with life and love and busy activities and
> worries and
> > problems and solutions and songs and most of them don't have time
> to think
> > about school, and it wouldn't help them if they did.
>
> Do you really not know what he means here? Of course none of us are
> lounging around wishing we had something to do. ;) Our lives are
> very full and happy and joyful now. But it is possible to have a
> full life now and still have that longing that we would have had the
> same as children. That someone would have known how happy we could
> have been if we hadn't had to do hours of homework every night and
> spend so much time doing stuff we hated. That void is the longing
> for a different kind of childhood. We can come to terms with that
> void. We can accept that what we now know to be the best is
> something we can give to our children but our childhood is over and
> was never filled with the joys of unschooling. We can find peace
> with accepting that and move on, but the fact that the void was there
> will always remain.
>
> We shouldn't waste our energy going to
> > school board meetings and nursing outrage either.
>
> Well, I don't think we should nurse outrage, but I think going to
> school board meetings and being politically active is a very good
> thing if we want our kids to have the freedom to unschool their kids.
>
> > We've been offering suggestions every day, but because it just
> seems like
> > parenting to you, you ignore it. They move on by being with their
> children,
> > REALLY with their children, in the moment, now. And since they are
> not NOW
> > in school, school is not part of their now.
>
> And some of that advice has been SO helpful to me. However, don't we
> also have to plan for our future? If, right now, I see a chance to
> get a better law, shouldn't I do something, right now, to help my
> children's future? I guarantee the NEA is doing what they can to take
> away the future of homeschooling.
>
> > -=-Everyone in the practice of unschooling deals with the
> restrictions placed
> > on us by the school system, the state, the "children and families"
> > agencies,-=-
> >
> > This is as wrong as flying dog shit.
>
> You talk about joyful, peaceful, and encouraging. That statement
> doesn't sound like any of those things to me. It sounds full of
> anger and resentment, the very thing you're preaching against.
>
> ALL of us deal with the restrictions put on us by the local school
> system or state. Those of you blessed enough to live in a free-er
> state live with the free-er restrictions your state allows you.
> Those of us who don't live in a free state live with less free
> restrictions. But we all have to do whatever the laws dictate that
> we do. And children and youth will follow up on all kinds of
> anonymous tips. I know someone who had a complaint against her
> because a neighbor thought they ate too much take out, so their kids
> must not be getting many healthy home-cooked meals. She is now
> scared to order pizza.
>
> Sheila
>
>
have said it better.
Sherry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>I know someone who had a complaint against her because a neighbor thoughtGeez, Sheila, where exactly do you live? I have never run into anything even
>>they ate too much take out, so their kids must not be getting many healthy
>>home-cooked meals. She is now scared to order pizza.>>
remotely like this.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/02 9:49:57 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< ALL of us deal with the restrictions put on us by the local school
system or state. Those of you blessed enough to live in a free-er
state live with the free-er restrictions your state allows you.
Those of us who don't live in a free state live with less free
restrictions. But we all have to do whatever the laws dictate that
we do. And children and youth will follow up on all kinds of
anonymous tips. I know someone who had a complaint against her
because a neighbor thought they ate too much take out, so their kids
must not be getting many healthy home-cooked meals. She is now
scared to order pizza. >>
None of this has to do with how unschooling works and how children can learn
through play.
Laws in individual states or countries are dealt with on other mailing lists.
Sandra
<< ALL of us deal with the restrictions put on us by the local school
system or state. Those of you blessed enough to live in a free-er
state live with the free-er restrictions your state allows you.
Those of us who don't live in a free state live with less free
restrictions. But we all have to do whatever the laws dictate that
we do. And children and youth will follow up on all kinds of
anonymous tips. I know someone who had a complaint against her
because a neighbor thought they ate too much take out, so their kids
must not be getting many healthy home-cooked meals. She is now
scared to order pizza. >>
None of this has to do with how unschooling works and how children can learn
through play.
Laws in individual states or countries are dealt with on other mailing lists.
Sandra
inmdcrew
But it does. It has a lot to do w/ unschooling if you have nosy
neighbors who watch your every move.
A list about hs laws isn't going to help w/ ideas of how to feel free
in your own backyard.
Is a nosy neighbor any different than a disapproving family member?
I think not.
Tina (inmdcrew)
neighbors who watch your every move.
A list about hs laws isn't going to help w/ ideas of how to feel free
in your own backyard.
Is a nosy neighbor any different than a disapproving family member?
I think not.
Tina (inmdcrew)
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/26/02 9:49:57 PM, sheran@p... writes:
>
> << ALL of us deal with the restrictions put on us by the local
school
> system or state. Those of you blessed enough to live in a free-er
> state live with the free-er restrictions your state allows you.
> Those of us who don't live in a free state live with less free
> restrictions. But we all have to do whatever the laws dictate that
> we do. And children and youth will follow up on all kinds of
> anonymous tips. I know someone who had a complaint against her
> because a neighbor thought they ate too much take out, so their
kids
> must not be getting many healthy home-cooked meals. She is now
> scared to order pizza. >>
>
> None of this has to do with how unschooling works and how children
can learn
> through play.
>
> Laws in individual states or countries are dealt with on other
mailing lists.
>
> Sandra
zenmomma *
>>A list about hs laws isn't going to help w/ ideas of how to feel free inAre you having trouble with nosy neighbors, Tina? If so, please tell us
>>your own backyard.
>>Is a nosy neighbor any different than a disapproving family member?>>
about it and maybe we can offer suggestions with the specifics of your
problem. I don't know how helpful it is to talk about someone elses
potential/rumored/past neighbor problems though. Especially if that person
is not here to give us the true specifics of the problem.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Tia Leschke
>But you just said it again . . . by leaving her whole post for the poor
>Hooray for Sheila and her wonderful, well thought out response!!! I couldn't
>have said it better.
digest people to wade through.
<g>
Tia
What you think of me is none of my business.
***********************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Fetteroll
on 8/27/02 12:44 PM, inmdcrew at Hatfield72@... wrote:
list or the message board. But regardless it would be perfectly okay to
discuss here.
If anyone has a personal problem that revolves around unschooling or
homeschooling it is often brought up here. People share similar problems
they've had. They suggest ideas on how to deal with it. They suggest other
places to seek information.
Nothing is off topic.
Everything can be discussed here.
What is "off topic" is for someone to *repeatedly* behave in such a way that
the list can't meet its purpose.
Ned dishes out emotionally charge misinformation that I personally don't
think should be left without someone questioning it. (Which is why I find it
difficult to ignore his posts.)
Ned turns *every* topic to how bad schools are. That's harmful to those
trying to move on. It's harmful to those who now fear they can't discuss
what the schools did to their child and why they want to unschool. (That's
an especially sad consequence of Ned's antics.)
Joyce
> But it does. It has a lot to do w/ unschooling if you have nosyIt does get discussed here. Very recently I think. Or maybe it was another
> neighbors who watch your every move.
>
> A list about hs laws isn't going to help w/ ideas of how to feel free
> in your own backyard.
>
> Is a nosy neighbor any different than a disapproving family member?
list or the message board. But regardless it would be perfectly okay to
discuss here.
If anyone has a personal problem that revolves around unschooling or
homeschooling it is often brought up here. People share similar problems
they've had. They suggest ideas on how to deal with it. They suggest other
places to seek information.
Nothing is off topic.
Everything can be discussed here.
What is "off topic" is for someone to *repeatedly* behave in such a way that
the list can't meet its purpose.
Ned dishes out emotionally charge misinformation that I personally don't
think should be left without someone questioning it. (Which is why I find it
difficult to ignore his posts.)
Ned turns *every* topic to how bad schools are. That's harmful to those
trying to move on. It's harmful to those who now fear they can't discuss
what the schools did to their child and why they want to unschool. (That's
an especially sad consequence of Ned's antics.)
Joyce
Tia Leschke
>Why not go to the lists where his diatribes are on-topic and agree with him
>I agree with so much of what you write Ned, and I've tried to stay
>out of trouble by not agreeing with you too much. ;)
there?
>However, II don't think I've *ever* fit any mold. I even used to try. <g>
>can't stay quiet anymore. I really enjoy a lot of the brilliant
>thinkers on this list, but there is a hostility here. People who
>don't fit the mold in every aspect really aren't liked very much.
>I think maybe that it's the people living in the freer states whoLike there are places for that kind of discussion, where it's
>often don't want to discuss the politics of unschooling? Or maybe
>people want to pretend like the taking of our tax dollars to pay for
>other people's kids third-rate education is ok? Like if you don't
>think about it it doesn't exist?
welcomed. Why not take it there? Some of those same people you criticize
for not wanting to discuss it here are over there discussing it.
Tia
"Unschool: Live your life as if there were no such thing as school." Ned Vare
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Helen Hegener
At 9:10 PM -0400 8/25/02, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare wrote:
the view of very many members of this list.
but you keep circling back around to this again. It got tiresome a
couple of weeks ago.
in real time. This is a discussion group and it works quite
differently. For example - you wrote what you wrote two days ago, but
I'm just now finding time to read and reply to it.
I recognize that many people don't belong to real life support groups
for one reason or another - I'm one of those people - and in some
ways, this list (and others) serves as a form of support. But that
does not make this list a support group.
I've snipped the rest of your post unread and will try to address
this on a larger scale than replying to scores of individual posts.
Helen
>There's a lot of talk about what to talk about lately.That's nonsense and you know it, Ned.
>
>When was the last time anyone posted something here that was actually about
>UNschooling? I can't remember it. Our list owners and managers and wanna-be
>managers keep asking us to talk about unschooling, and stop talking about
>other things, and those "other things" seem to depend on the whims of those
>managers. My two or three months here should be enough for me to get an idea
>what is acceptable, but I still have no idea, because the managers keep
>moving and removing the goalposts.
>So we have a problem here. Ours is a "negative practice." It's NOT-That might be your view, Ned, but it's not mine, and I doubt if it's
>schooling. So how does one talk about NOT-schooling without mentioning
>schooling?
the view of very many members of this list.
> Lately, many posts, from the list managers in particular, haveMany people have tried to change the direction of this conversation,
>complained that the conversation is NOT about unschooling, but even they
>have not contributed examples of what they want us to talk about.
but you keep circling back around to this again. It got tiresome a
couple of weeks ago.
> The reasonThis list got along just fine for about three years before you came along, Ned.
>is that there is really not much we can talk about because of that "UN." If
>all this list is about is talking about what we did today as parents, we
>might as well change the name to Parenting.com and leave it at that.
>I even got blasted because someone thought I called this a "support group"Nope. Support groups are - have always been - face to face meetings
>even when I didn't. "It's a discussion group," she said. I have to ask,
>What do support groups do? They discuss issues relevant to an activity. That
>makes this a support group, doesn't it?
in real time. This is a discussion group and it works quite
differently. For example - you wrote what you wrote two days ago, but
I'm just now finding time to read and reply to it.
I recognize that many people don't belong to real life support groups
for one reason or another - I'm one of those people - and in some
ways, this list (and others) serves as a form of support. But that
does not make this list a support group.
I've snipped the rest of your post unread and will try to address
this on a larger scale than replying to scores of individual posts.
Helen
Helen Hegener
I've read enough to see where this whole discussion is headed, so I'm
going to quit replying and just read for a while, and will most
likely have more to say when I get caught up with the list again.
Helen
going to quit replying and just read for a while, and will most
likely have more to say when I get caught up with the list again.
Helen
Tia Leschke
>Now Helen, it wasn't all *that* long ago that you published Gina's "Support
>Nope. Support groups are - have always been - face to face meetings
>in real time. This is a discussion group and it works quite
>differently. For example - you wrote what you wrote two days ago, but
>I'm just now finding time to read and reply to it.
Group in My Office" or some such title, about the Canadian homeschooling
list. <G>
Tia
"Unschool: Live your life as if there were no such thing as school." Ned Vare
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Home Education Magazine
At 6:55 PM -0700 8/27/02, Tia Leschke wrote:
my editor does. <g>
Helen
>Now Helen, it wasn't all *that* long ago that you published Gina's "SupportTia, you mixer, you... I don't select the articles for publication -
>Group in My Office" or some such title, about the Canadian homeschooling
>list. <G>
my editor does. <g>
Helen