inmdcrew

For anyone of you who live near IN. In Peru the International Circus
Hall of Fame resides.

Peru is the winter headquarters for traveling circuses. Summertime
brings circus performances from performers who are there enroute.

We headed there on Sat. Now, I don't like the idea of animals caged
up generally: but I have to say this was a fun day. The animals
that were there are owned by a family from TX who provide Hollywood
with animals for their movies and TV shows. They seemed well treated.

We met several families who were there inbetween travelings. They
stay in their RV's. We watched them practice and got to try out
things if we wanted.

The museum was rundown but they had a lot of info.

It felt like a big camp for circus families.

Tina(inmdcrew)

marji

At 12:50 8/19/02 +0000, Tina (inmdcrew) wrote:
>For anyone of you who live near IN. In Peru the International Circus
>Hall of Fame resides.
>
>We headed there on Sat. Now, I don't like the idea of animals caged
>up generally: but I have to say this was a fun day. The animals
>that were there are owned by a family from TX who provide Hollywood
>with animals for their movies and TV shows. They seemed well treated.

Please... before you go to support any circuses that use animal acts,
please visit www.circuses.com

Keep in mind that only the humans performing in the circuses have chosen to
be there; not the animals. They cannot chose. The circuses will tell you
that they treat the animals well. But, in order to get animals to perform
unnatural, silly, and scary tricks, other methods of "training" must be
used. There are laws in place to protect the animals, but these laws are
hard to enforce and are generally weak.

It's not my intention to start a thread here on circuses and animal acts,
but since it was brought up, I can't let this go by. I only ask that you
consider that when you support animal acts in circuses, you are more than
likely supporting cruelty. It may not be what you wish to do.

Thanks.

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

inmdcrew

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., marji <zintz@w...> wrote:
> At 12:50 8/19/02 +0000, Tina (inmdcrew) wrote:
> >For anyone of you who live near IN. In Peru the International
Circus
> >Hall of Fame resides.
> >
> >We headed there on Sat. Now, I don't like the idea of animals
caged
> >up generally: but I have to say this was a fun day. The animals
> >that were there are owned by a family from TX who provide Hollywood
> >with animals for their movies and TV shows. They seemed well
treated.
>
> Please... before you go to support any circuses that use animal
acts,
> please visit www.circuses.com
>
> Keep in mind that only the humans performing in the circuses have
chosen to
> be there; not the animals. They cannot chose. The circuses will
tell you
> that they treat the animals well. But, in order to get animals to
perform
> unnatural, silly, and scary tricks, other methods of "training"
must be
> used. There are laws in place to protect the animals, but these
laws are
> hard to enforce and are generally weak.
>
> It's not my intention to start a thread here on circuses and animal
acts,
> but since it was brought up, I can't let this go by. I only ask
that you
> consider that when you support animal acts in circuses, you are
more than
> likely supporting cruelty. It may not be what you wish to do.
>
> Thanks.
>
> ~marji~
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Marji,

Like I said I don't agree with the concept of animals caged. And in
fact I haven't taken my children to any circuses that have come to
our city.
However, circuses have such a historical place in our country and in
fact seem to originate from the Romans. We live so close to the
International Hall of Fame that it would be a shame to ignore this
part of history.
In fact we spend the whole day with the trainers and other performers
and really got to delve into their lifestyle. It opened up many
topics and broadened my kids horizons. Even into the question of
whether animals should be trained and kept in cages.

The kids were able to relate to these topics b/c they have worked
hard to train our dog to do tricks.

So while I don't agree with the methods that can be used, I also am
not going to completely shut off that opportunity for learning that
was available.

I am not replying with any of this to be sarcastic or retortful but
to clarify.
Tina (inmdcrew)

marji

Hi, Tina,

I appreciate the dialogue on this subject. In fact, whenever the topic of
circuses comes up, I find that many people don't think about the animals
one way or the other. It's easy, because circuses and animal exploitation
are such an intrinsic part of our culture, for us to overlook and be
desensitized to animal suffering. That's why I took the opportunity to
point this out, not to point a finger at you, but to shine a little light
on a rather dark topic. And, if there is anyone who never really thought
about it before, our discussion would give them a chance to think, and
maybe reconsider a choice. Or at least just think about it.

In fact, when circuses come to our town, my son and I do go, but we go to
demonstrate. I think he's learning that we don't have to accept everything
that is put on our plates, and that if something looks amiss, we can
question it. But, this is just our experience.

I remember going to a circus in the 1960s when I was a little girl and
feeling very sad about the animals but not knowing why or what I could do
about it. Everyone else there seemed so happy, I felt very peculiar and
strange. As though something were wrong with me for feeling that way. No
one was outside the circus protesting it.

At the demonstrations there are always cars and minivans full of moms and
dads or grandmas and grandpas and kids in the back. Most of the time, the
kids stare at us standing there with our signs trying to read them, but the
grownups rarely do. The kids' eyes are as wide as dinner plates and they
look serious. It's interesting.

Anyway, thanks, Tina, for bring up this topic. I do appreciate the
opportunity to talk about it.

Best wishes,

~marji~

At 14:22 8/19/02 +0000, Tina wrote:

>Marji,
>
>Like I said I don't agree with the concept of animals caged. And in
>fact I haven't taken my children to any circuses that have come to
>our city.
>However, circuses have such a historical place in our country and in
>fact seem to originate from the Romans. We live so close to the
>International Hall of Fame that it would be a shame to ignore this
>part of history.
>In fact we spend the whole day with the trainers and other performers
>and really got to delve into their lifestyle. It opened up many
>topics and broadened my kids horizons. Even into the question of
>whether animals should be trained and kept in cages.
>
>The kids were able to relate to these topics b/c they have worked
>hard to train our dog to do tricks.
>
>So while I don't agree with the methods that can be used, I also am
>not going to completely shut off that opportunity for learning that
>was available.
>
>I am not replying with any of this to be sarcastic or retortful but
>to clarify.
>Tina (inmdcrew)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

inmdcrew

Marji,
Hey! This has been interesting. Like I said before, I haven't taken
my kids to the circuses when they have come thru. Mainly, b/c deep
in my heart I was concerned about the animals also. And I still am
concerned. But I would venture to say that there is more to circuses
than the animals. Perhaps you could even open the animal owners'
eyes about their animals if you met them.

We walked and talked with the trainers and the performers. We met
their children who homeschool (in a tutor type style) in RV's. We
met and talked with a clown who made his electric car and costumes
from scratch. We learned about their animals (at least this
family's) and the life style they lead in TX.

So I would venture to say that your son could also learn alot from
these people. They live such a different lifestyle from us ordinary
stationary home folks.

That's not to say there isn't animal abuse. But these few families
we met really cared about their lifestyle and their animals. They
worked hard to answer our questions and show us everything.

I wouldn't trade that day for anything b/c my kids and I learned so
much. And who knows, maybe I'll take the kids to the circus someday
and see someone I know. And I can check up on the animals also.

Tina








--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., marji <zintz@w...> wrote:
> Hi, Tina,
>
> I appreciate the dialogue on this subject. In fact, whenever the
topic of
> circuses comes up, I find that many people don't think about the
animals
> one way or the other. It's easy, because circuses and animal
exploitation
> are such an intrinsic part of our culture, for us to overlook and
be
> desensitized to animal suffering. That's why I took the
opportunity to
> point this out, not to point a finger at you, but to shine a little
light
> on a rather dark topic. And, if there is anyone who never really
thought
> about it before, our discussion would give them a chance to think,
and
> maybe reconsider a choice. Or at least just think about it.
>
> In fact, when circuses come to our town, my son and I do go, but we
go to
> demonstrate. I think he's learning that we don't have to accept
everything
> that is put on our plates, and that if something looks amiss, we
can
> question it. But, this is just our experience.
>
> I remember going to a circus in the 1960s when I was a little girl
and
> feeling very sad about the animals but not knowing why or what I
could do
> about it. Everyone else there seemed so happy, I felt very
peculiar and
> strange. As though something were wrong with me for feeling that
way. No
> one was outside the circus protesting it.
>
> At the demonstrations there are always cars and minivans full of
moms and
> dads or grandmas and grandpas and kids in the back. Most of the
time, the
> kids stare at us standing there with our signs trying to read them,
but the
> grownups rarely do. The kids' eyes are as wide as dinner plates
and they
> look serious. It's interesting.
>
> Anyway, thanks, Tina, for bring up this topic. I do appreciate the
> opportunity to talk about it.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> ~marji~
>
> At 14:22 8/19/02 +0000, Tina wrote:
>
> >Marji,
> >
> >Like I said I don't agree with the concept of animals caged. And
in
> >fact I haven't taken my children to any circuses that have come to
> >our city.
> >However, circuses have such a historical place in our country and
in
> >fact seem to originate from the Romans. We live so close to the
> >International Hall of Fame that it would be a shame to ignore this
> >part of history.
> >In fact we spend the whole day with the trainers and other
performers
> >and really got to delve into their lifestyle. It opened up many
> >topics and broadened my kids horizons. Even into the question of
> >whether animals should be trained and kept in cages.
> >
> >The kids were able to relate to these topics b/c they have worked
> >hard to train our dog to do tricks.
> >
> >So while I don't agree with the methods that can be used, I also am
> >not going to completely shut off that opportunity for learning that
> >was available.
> >
> >I am not replying with any of this to be sarcastic or retortful but
> >to clarify.
> >Tina (inmdcrew)
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 15:57 8/19/02 +0000, Tina wrote:

Hi, Tina,

I forgot to mention that there is a list of animal-free circuses. Included
are web sites and email addresses as well as phone numbers and
addresses. The list is international, not just for the United States.

http://www.circuses.com/animalfree.html

Circuses are widely booked as fundraising events for local groups, and this
list may help someone choose a more compassionate route for their
fundraising activities.

But, something else popped into my mind as I was writing this. A few years
ago, a friend of ours invited us to go to the circus with her and her
daughter. I told her that I could not go because of the animals, but I
felt that boycotting animal acts was something that Liam (my son) should
decide for himself. He did go to the circus. He did not like it. It
never occurred to me at the time to protest against it. I have since
become much more vocal about animal rights issues and other issues,
too. Whenever I have gone to protest against the circus, I have not asked
him to come or told him that he had to or should come with me. He wants to
come and he asks me.

It reminds me that--in every area--it is not what we say but what we do
that impacts our children. This is truly awesome.

Thanks!

Marji

>Marji,
>Hey! This has been interesting. Like I said before, I haven't taken
>my kids to the circuses when they have come thru. Mainly, b/c deep
>in my heart I was concerned about the animals also. And I still am
>concerned. But I would venture to say that there is more to circuses
>than the animals. Perhaps you could even open the animal owners'
>eyes about their animals if you met them.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

KT

>
>
>I forgot to mention that there is a list of animal-free circuses.
>
I'm curious if the people who are against circuses also keep pets at home?

Tuck

marji

At 11:39 8/19/02 -0500, Tuck wrote:
> >
>I'm curious if the people who are against circuses also keep pets at home?
>
>Tuck

That's an excellent question! I cannot answer for others, only for
myself. And, there are companion animals in our home. We do not own them,
though; they aren't our property. We have opened our home to these guys
because humans have domesticated cats and dogs and therefore, these animals
have become dependent on humans. We are happy to care for them and we
expect nothing of them in return. We do receive, though, a great deal of
love and affection which we gladly accept and return. I have taken animal
communication courses in an attempt to better hear them (I'm not real good
at it, though, but I'm trying) and meet their needs. I am honored to have
these beautiful creatures living with us. By the way, neither do I kill
or injure the bugs and creepy-crawlies that have decided to make a home in
our building, although I do capture them, if necessary (like a bee, for
example), and relocate them to a place where they and we will be more
safe. Same holds true for mice and voles that get into our house. We do
take care of any animals, though, that may be injured or are obviously
orphaned and need care.

As you might imagine, we are vegan in this home and we don't wear leather
or fur.

Thanks for asking!

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

KT

>
>
>Thanks for asking!
>

Thanks for answering!

Tuck

[email protected]

I dislike animal acts in circuses and I have Pets. There is a huge
difference between teh two.
~Elissa Cleaveland
Radical Unschoolers Unite!

[email protected]

We have a dog and three cats. We have had them neutered. Seems cruel, and
it wasn't their choice, but we have. And we register them with the city.
Not every animal every year, but when vet's visits come along (if they do),
we renew tags.

We do not keep the animals locked up. Some people keep their cats in for the
cat's protection. Some chain their dogs and leash them every second.

We have a dog door. We have a yard they can all get out of.

They live here of their own free will. One we paid $10 for (a reward) for a
family that had read our lost-cat ad. It wasn't our cat, but it fit our lost
cat's description, and they couldn't keep it so my husband brought it home
and gave them a reward. <g>

Two were barn-cat rescues. They probably would've been shot if they'd stayed
where they were, and they were wild and mean and full of ticks at first.

The dog was gotten at the pound. Her mom and other two, I hope, were adopted
by other families. If not, they're part of a growing hill of ashes near the
gold course.

SO. If these animals want to move to another house with another family, they
can.

If the dog feels unhappy and wants to run away, she can.

When I was a kid we had a dog my parents NEVER let in the house, not a bit,
but we loved her and fed her well, and she stayed with us from the time I was
seven until I was 18 or 19.

She came to us on her own, as a stray, and she stayed with us for her
lifetime, of her own free will. We never owned a leash in all those years.
She could leave the yard and come back.

There are circus animals which are NOT treated cruelly in any way but are
loved by families whose family business has been for MANY generations the
training of animals to show to support their families. Those people know
more about "cognition" and conditioning and psychology in natural practical
ways than many trained professionals do. Their methods of 'gentling' and
training are often more sound and less harmful than what is being done to
human children down the street from your house.

I don't condemn circuses. Cruelty is bad, but circus does not equal cruelty.

Again, the critical voices sometimes go on without really careful thought.
Some of those animals would have been in much worse condition elsewhere. An
American-born elephant which has grown up in a circus is no worse off than an
Indian-born elephant working in the logging or construction industry in
India. Maybe much better off than an elephant in a zoo.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/19/02 10:47:49 AM, zintz@... writes:

<< By the way, neither do I kill
or injure the bugs and creepy-crawlies that have decided to make a home in
our building, although I do capture them, if necessary (like a bee, for
example), and relocate them to a place where they and we will be more
safe. >>

I relocate cockroaches to heaven, or perhaps speed them along their journey
to karmic enlightenment. I always think as they leave "Better life next
time, bug!" I never wear any clothing made of the exoskeletons of
cockroaches, though.

Sandra

marji

At 14:53 8/20/02 -0400, Sandra wrote:
>We have a dog and three cats. We have had them neutered. Seems cruel, and
>it wasn't their choice, but we have.

Neutering companion animals does not seem cruel at all, given the horrific
overpopulation and lack of loving homes available for the dogs and cats who
are homeless on the street and pining away in shelters. All the animals
who have come to live with us have been rescued either from the shelter or
from the street. And, if they are not already neutered, that is the first
order of business. It's true that it's not their choice, but allowing cats
and dogs to proliferate unchecked puts more animals at risk in the already
overburdened animal shelters.

>One we paid $10 for (a reward) for a family that had read our lost-cat
>ad. It wasn't our cat, but it fit our lost cat's description, and they
>couldn't keep it so my husband brought it home and gave them a reward. <g>

<g>

>Two were barn-cat rescues. They probably would've been shot if they'd stayed
>where they were, and they were wild and mean and full of ticks at first.

Sometimes those feral guys, if you have the patience to wait it out, turn
out to be the sweetest friends anyone could ever want (sometimes, not!).

>There are circus animals which are NOT treated cruelly in any way but are
>loved by families whose family business has been for MANY generations the
>training of animals to show to support their families. Those people know
>more about "cognition" and conditioning and psychology in natural practical
>ways than many trained professionals do. Their methods of 'gentling' and
>training are often more sound and less harmful than what is being done to
>human children down the street from your house.

I'd love to learn more about these particular circuses. Do you have a name
of the circus(es)?

>An American-born elephant which has grown up in a circus is no worse off
>than an
>Indian-born elephant working in the logging or construction industry in
>India. Maybe much better off than an elephant in a zoo.

While this may be true, I don't live in India; I live here in the United
States. And when I see - with my own eyes, as I have - that something is
wrong, it behooves me to speak out about it. If I lived in India, I hope I
would be able to be vocal there. Cruelty against animals in one place does
not justify cruelty in another place. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But, two Wrights made and airplane! <G> (sorry, couldn't resist!)

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 15:05 8/20/02 -0400, Sandra wrote:
>I relocate cockroaches to heaven, or perhaps speed them along their journey
>to karmic enlightenment.

My husband says, "I take 'em for a 'Blue Velvet' ride."

~marji~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/20/02 4:23:13 PM, zintz@... writes:

<< Neutering companion animals does not seem cruel at all, given the horrific
overpopulation and lack of loving homes available for the dogs and cats who
are homeless on the street and pining away in shelters. >>

Why wouldn't that apply to people then as well? A sad cat is only sad for a
few years and doesn't make many other cats miserable.

A sad human, though--that can last 75 years and four or five generations. In
the face of the sorrow of the world, of abuse and neglect and bad genetics,
why aren't sterilization and abortion moral virtues?

I think it's that soul thing...

<<It's true that it's not their choice, but allowing cats
and dogs to proliferate unchecked puts more animals at risk in the already
overburdened animal shelters.>>

Allowing humans to proliferate unchecked puts me and my children at risk in
the already overburdened world.

Philosophical points shouldn't be seen in isolation from parallel points two
degrees to the side of them, I think.

<I'd love to learn more about these particular circuses. Do you have a name
of the circus(es)?>>

No, I don't know. I'm thinking of particular individuals, one I met (who was
umpty-generation circus from Rumania or thereabout, and trained dogs and
monkeys) and others about whom I've read in the past when I was looking into
learning and conditioning.

Some people are mean to their pets. That's a crime.
Some people are mean to animals they're training. That's a crime.

But it doesn't mean there should be no pets and there should be no trained
animals.

Sandra

Sandra