Re: 2239 - Ned back to Tia re HSLDA
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/13/02 1:37 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
Let's see, do I blame HSLDA for the loss of freedom we are experiencing?
It's hard to say who or what is ultimately responsible, but there have been
advances in freedoms too, over the years, and I believe they outweigh the
losses. Twenty-five years ago, the picture was grim compared to today, even
though it's still bad.
Who doesn't have something against lawyers? HSLDA is run by lawyers as a
business. That's strike one and two. They have a conflict of interest.
In CT, fifteen years ago, school boards had the say in whether a family
could homeschool or not. I was not involved then, but when our Hsing org
wanted to change that, the head of HSLDA came and made a case to the State
School Board in an effort that he claimed would help. His presentation was
not accepted even by CT homeschoolers, so it created much confusion at the
time. Ultimately, the parents themselves took charge of the negotiations and
were able to make the state eliminate its regulations, so that now, there is
really no regulation at all for homeschoolers here, and no law that uses the
word homeschooling. That might be up for a redux next year again, since we
were attacked this year by superintendents trying to create restrictions.
From where I sit, the HSLDA is helping by being a visible advocate and
lobbyist, but along the way, they can't help but antagonize plenty of folks
because ot their religious slant and political/legal tactics that seem to
favor them instead of parents, sometimes.
What seems to happen is that the HSLDA divides groups of parents from each
other on issues -- christians versus all the rest. I don't know if it can be
really blamed on the org or not. Christians for one reason or another, seem
to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems to be
behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers fight
against?
On balance, I'd say HSLDA is doing more good than harm, but in states where
the climate is favorable for homeschooling, I see no need to join, and that
means many states. Homeschooling is getting large enough to have lots of
lawyers among its practitioners. Who needs outsiders?
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
>Tia,
> Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:33:05 -0700
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: To Ned
>
>
>>
>> Does anyone here blame HSLDA with all their unecessary stridency and
>> willingness to divide homeschoolers for the loss of freedom we are
>> experiencing? I wonder if all their activism is doing enough damage
>> that it's really beginning to affect more people now....???
>
> I do, in part.
> Tia
Let's see, do I blame HSLDA for the loss of freedom we are experiencing?
It's hard to say who or what is ultimately responsible, but there have been
advances in freedoms too, over the years, and I believe they outweigh the
losses. Twenty-five years ago, the picture was grim compared to today, even
though it's still bad.
Who doesn't have something against lawyers? HSLDA is run by lawyers as a
business. That's strike one and two. They have a conflict of interest.
In CT, fifteen years ago, school boards had the say in whether a family
could homeschool or not. I was not involved then, but when our Hsing org
wanted to change that, the head of HSLDA came and made a case to the State
School Board in an effort that he claimed would help. His presentation was
not accepted even by CT homeschoolers, so it created much confusion at the
time. Ultimately, the parents themselves took charge of the negotiations and
were able to make the state eliminate its regulations, so that now, there is
really no regulation at all for homeschoolers here, and no law that uses the
word homeschooling. That might be up for a redux next year again, since we
were attacked this year by superintendents trying to create restrictions.
From where I sit, the HSLDA is helping by being a visible advocate and
lobbyist, but along the way, they can't help but antagonize plenty of folks
because ot their religious slant and political/legal tactics that seem to
favor them instead of parents, sometimes.
What seems to happen is that the HSLDA divides groups of parents from each
other on issues -- christians versus all the rest. I don't know if it can be
really blamed on the org or not. Christians for one reason or another, seem
to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems to be
behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers fight
against?
On balance, I'd say HSLDA is doing more good than harm, but in states where
the climate is favorable for homeschooling, I see no need to join, and that
means many states. Homeschooling is getting large enough to have lots of
lawyers among its practitioners. Who needs outsiders?
Ned Vare
Fetteroll
on 8/14/02 2:51 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
specific, narrow window into their lives through which the government can
see that homeschooling is good or better than public schools so the
government won't have a reason to intrude on their lives. They're *very*
much against government intrusion.
Unschoolers make them nervous in that respect because we aren't concerned
about proving that learning is taking place which could look to the
government like educational neglect. Which they fear could cause the
government to be very intrusive.
Joyce
> Christians for one reason or another, seemI believe the reasoning is that the regulations give the government a very
> to like state regulations. I can't figure that out.
specific, narrow window into their lives through which the government can
see that homeschooling is good or better than public schools so the
government won't have a reason to intrude on their lives. They're *very*
much against government intrusion.
Unschoolers make them nervous in that respect because we aren't concerned
about proving that learning is taking place which could look to the
government like educational neglect. Which they fear could cause the
government to be very intrusive.
Joyce
Fetteroll
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hasn't managed to do so successfully.
Here's the process:
*Address* a (blank) email to [email protected]
(If that address is showing up as a link all you need do is click on it and
it should bring up an email already addressed and filled in properly. Just
click send.)
If that doesn't work go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups (you should be
able to click on that) and click on Edit My Groups. Click on the check boxes
to the right to indicate which groups you want to unsubscribe from and then
click Save Changes. (That page is where you can also change your preferences
to digest or no mail there.)
If that doesn't work, email me privately (fetteroll@... -- again,
you should just be able to click on my address). I will eventually get to it
but I set them aside until I know I won't be interrupted -- the type at the
website is tiny and I don't want to accidently unsubscribe the wrong person!
-- and it may take me a day to get to them. (Or weekend if I'm away.)
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/02 12:49:59 AM, nedvare@... writes:
<< Christians for one reason or another, seem
to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems to be
behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers fight
against? >>
It has to do with a belief in hell.
They want to know what exactly the minimum is that they have to do to avoid
hell, or legal trouble, or the disapproval of the others in their church.
They (meaning fundamentalist Christian women who would homeschool because
their husbands told them to, whose husbands would tell them to because a
minister told him to, or somewhere in there one of them just claims Jesus
"convicted" them directly)...
They want the rules laid out so they can follow them, just like they follow
the Bible and the "advice" of their church.
Creativity and winging it CAN'T be right, especially if any of it *feels*
good. That would be sin. That would lead to hell.
Sandra
<< Christians for one reason or another, seem
to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems to be
behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers fight
against? >>
It has to do with a belief in hell.
They want to know what exactly the minimum is that they have to do to avoid
hell, or legal trouble, or the disapproval of the others in their church.
They (meaning fundamentalist Christian women who would homeschool because
their husbands told them to, whose husbands would tell them to because a
minister told him to, or somewhere in there one of them just claims Jesus
"convicted" them directly)...
They want the rules laid out so they can follow them, just like they follow
the Bible and the "advice" of their church.
Creativity and winging it CAN'T be right, especially if any of it *feels*
good. That would be sin. That would lead to hell.
Sandra
kayb85
A Christian who is running around worrying about avoiding hell
doesn't fully grasp God's grace and unconditional love, or the
freedom we have in Christ.
Sheila
doesn't fully grasp God's grace and unconditional love, or the
freedom we have in Christ.
Sheila
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/14/02 12:49:59 AM, nedvare@n... writes:
>
> << Christians for one reason or another, seem
> to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems
to be
> behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers
fight
> against? >>
>
> It has to do with a belief in hell.
> They want to know what exactly the minimum is that they have to do
to avoid
> hell, or legal trouble, or the disapproval of the others in their
church.
> They (meaning fundamentalist Christian women who would homeschool
because
> their husbands told them to, whose husbands would tell them to
because a
> minister told him to, or somewhere in there one of them just claims
Jesus
> "convicted" them directly)...
> They want the rules laid out so they can follow them, just like
they follow
> the Bible and the "advice" of their church.
>
> Creativity and winging it CAN'T be right, especially if any of it
*feels*
> good. That would be sin. That would lead to hell.
>
> Sandra
Heather Woodward
Creativity and winging it CAN'T be right, especially if any of it *feels*
good. That would be sin. That would lead to hell.
I know what you are saying in regard to the HSLDA environment and that whole group of homeschoolers that tend to be "Christian" and rigid. Like the Teaching Home family on the front cover of their magazine.
BUT... it is sad that the majority of Christians follow a minister, pastor, husband etc. and have perpetuated this idea that creativity and winging it can't be right.... etc. There are those of us - that don't see it that way - as well as some authors that stand on the fence - I am thinking of Charlotte Mason... I understand where the fundamentalists get their line of logic from "train up a child...etc" and their style my work for them....but God didn't use a cookie cutter - and we are all different. I think it's more of a sin to be a follower...(following pastor..or whatever) without doing your own studying, thinking, working it out - on issues of utmost importance - such as how to raise your child...
Although generally unschooling is not looked upon favorably in Christian circles - because it does seem messy .... unstructured etc. - it is often misunderstood that our kids are doing "nothing all day" - someone suggested to me to keep a journal awhile back - and I am amazed at how much we are doing... I also have watched Christian friends who give their child an ultimatum like - you can't go out to the beach - if you don't finish that math page...and inevitablnly I am thinking as we are on the beach without her - that my kids are learning so much more by experiencing the joys of life - than hers sitting there, crying and fighting about the math page. Although I have my moments where I am nervous about letting go ... It is more of getting used to the idea that if it is mainstream - and widely accepted it usually isn't always right... the harder path tends to be the right one - all the way... think of the parable - the broad and easy way - vs. the narrow and bumpy way... ;-)
~heather
Ps- and Ned - what is hell anyway ;-) just kidding -
good. That would be sin. That would lead to hell.
I know what you are saying in regard to the HSLDA environment and that whole group of homeschoolers that tend to be "Christian" and rigid. Like the Teaching Home family on the front cover of their magazine.
BUT... it is sad that the majority of Christians follow a minister, pastor, husband etc. and have perpetuated this idea that creativity and winging it can't be right.... etc. There are those of us - that don't see it that way - as well as some authors that stand on the fence - I am thinking of Charlotte Mason... I understand where the fundamentalists get their line of logic from "train up a child...etc" and their style my work for them....but God didn't use a cookie cutter - and we are all different. I think it's more of a sin to be a follower...(following pastor..or whatever) without doing your own studying, thinking, working it out - on issues of utmost importance - such as how to raise your child...
Although generally unschooling is not looked upon favorably in Christian circles - because it does seem messy .... unstructured etc. - it is often misunderstood that our kids are doing "nothing all day" - someone suggested to me to keep a journal awhile back - and I am amazed at how much we are doing... I also have watched Christian friends who give their child an ultimatum like - you can't go out to the beach - if you don't finish that math page...and inevitablnly I am thinking as we are on the beach without her - that my kids are learning so much more by experiencing the joys of life - than hers sitting there, crying and fighting about the math page. Although I have my moments where I am nervous about letting go ... It is more of getting used to the idea that if it is mainstream - and widely accepted it usually isn't always right... the harder path tends to be the right one - all the way... think of the parable - the broad and easy way - vs. the narrow and bumpy way... ;-)
~heather
Ps- and Ned - what is hell anyway ;-) just kidding -
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2239 - Ned back to Tia re HSLDA
In a message dated 8/14/02 12:49:59 AM, nedvare@... writes:
<< Christians for one reason or another, seem
to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems to be
behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers fight
against? >>
It has to do with a belief in hell.
They want to know what exactly the minimum is that they have to do to avoid
hell, or legal trouble, or the disapproval of the others in their church.
They (meaning fundamentalist Christian women who would homeschool because
their husbands told them to, whose husbands would tell them to because a
minister told him to, or somewhere in there one of them just claims Jesus
"convicted" them directly)...
They want the rules laid out so they can follow them, just like they follow
the Bible and the "advice" of their church.
Creativity and winging it CAN'T be right, especially if any of it *feels*
good. That would be sin. That would lead to hell.
Sandra
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[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2002 6:02:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Those are some serious religious and political generalizations and opinions
about "them," especially coming from one who recently spent a week trying to
silence someone who was giving, ah, er, serious political generalizations and
opinions about "them." I don't doubt you've met your share of shallow people,
who hasn't? But "shallow" is just it, for what you are addressing really
isn't the Christian fundamentalist thing, as much as it is the herd mentality
-- something that's found everywhere. Alas, even at this list!
But you made the accusation toward fundy Christians, and it's clear you "have
issues" with them. So I'll go with that, because I think you are wrong. The
bottom line, from your perspective, is that the fear of hell is what
motivates them. Fear is indeed a dangerous and harmful motivator. But there
are fears other than hell that motivate all of us, not just the Christians.
What about the fear of being unhip; poor; without answers; forsaken; sick;
rejected; alone; losing your children; not being able to unschool; etc? Hell
is only one of a million fears.
But you think that fear of hell, and slavish devotion to others is what
motivates fundamentalist C's: Consider this: The opposite of fear is love.
Maybe it's love that motivates them. And that what appears as fear, may in
fact be a love of things like devotion, order, absolute truth, hierarchies of
value in art, method, life, eternal justice, God. Moreover, what appears to
be slavish succumbing, may in fact be devotion. You may despise the object of
their devotion, but are you not devoted to someone, something?
Also consider that the belief that there is order in the universe, and order
in our souls, and that this order is manifested everywhere, is as old as the
hills -- even older! (The great Eric Voegelin made it his life's work to
study this revelation of order. What he found regarding ancient Israel is
staggering -- a truly blessed people. I digress.) Christians assume this
order, and look to see that some of it gets manifest in the political realm.
That's not unusual, Sandra, it's the story of humans.
The fear of hell is not peculiar to fundamentalist Christians, and I doubt it
is what motivates them to belong to HSLDA, or Promise Keepers, or any other
organization.
Your remarks above betray that you fancy yourself a freethinker. Yet those
statements are textbook generalizations -- everyone makes them. What more can
you tell us that we haven't already thought ourselves?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> <<Christians for one reason or another, seemSandra,
> to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems to be
> behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers fight
> against? >>
>
> It has to do with a belief in hell.
> They want to know what exactly the minimum is that they have to do to avoid
>
> hell, or legal trouble, or the disapproval of the others in their church.
> They (meaning fundamentalist Christian women who would homeschool because
> their husbands told them to, whose husbands would tell them to because a
> minister told him to, or somewhere in there one of them just claims Jesus
> "convicted" them directly)...
> They want the rules laid out so they can follow them, just like they follow
>
> the Bible and the "advice" of their church.
Those are some serious religious and political generalizations and opinions
about "them," especially coming from one who recently spent a week trying to
silence someone who was giving, ah, er, serious political generalizations and
opinions about "them." I don't doubt you've met your share of shallow people,
who hasn't? But "shallow" is just it, for what you are addressing really
isn't the Christian fundamentalist thing, as much as it is the herd mentality
-- something that's found everywhere. Alas, even at this list!
But you made the accusation toward fundy Christians, and it's clear you "have
issues" with them. So I'll go with that, because I think you are wrong. The
bottom line, from your perspective, is that the fear of hell is what
motivates them. Fear is indeed a dangerous and harmful motivator. But there
are fears other than hell that motivate all of us, not just the Christians.
What about the fear of being unhip; poor; without answers; forsaken; sick;
rejected; alone; losing your children; not being able to unschool; etc? Hell
is only one of a million fears.
But you think that fear of hell, and slavish devotion to others is what
motivates fundamentalist C's: Consider this: The opposite of fear is love.
Maybe it's love that motivates them. And that what appears as fear, may in
fact be a love of things like devotion, order, absolute truth, hierarchies of
value in art, method, life, eternal justice, God. Moreover, what appears to
be slavish succumbing, may in fact be devotion. You may despise the object of
their devotion, but are you not devoted to someone, something?
Also consider that the belief that there is order in the universe, and order
in our souls, and that this order is manifested everywhere, is as old as the
hills -- even older! (The great Eric Voegelin made it his life's work to
study this revelation of order. What he found regarding ancient Israel is
staggering -- a truly blessed people. I digress.) Christians assume this
order, and look to see that some of it gets manifest in the political realm.
That's not unusual, Sandra, it's the story of humans.
The fear of hell is not peculiar to fundamentalist Christians, and I doubt it
is what motivates them to belong to HSLDA, or Promise Keepers, or any other
organization.
Your remarks above betray that you fancy yourself a freethinker. Yet those
statements are textbook generalizations -- everyone makes them. What more can
you tell us that we haven't already thought ourselves?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2002 1:16:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
This is very astute. I want to add another thing. To many Christian
homeschoolers there is an apparent (not necessarily real) disorder in
unschooling, and as I said in my last post, many Christians believe in an
inherent order. And they believe that one crucial way this order is
manifested is in familial pedagogy: mothers and fathers, love your children
and teach them well. The Judaic wisdom books play a great part in this as do
the writings of, say, Augustine. Indeed, here is Augustine: "The family is a
school of virtue in which God sets before us, day after day, a few people
whom we are to learn to love. This is the paideia of the heavenly Father, at
work upon both children and parents, building upon the love that comes
naturally to us in our families, but transforming it also into the image of
divine love."
Sounds good to me!
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> Unschoolers make them nervous in that respect because we aren't concernedJoyce,
> about proving that learning is taking place which could look to the
> government like educational neglect. Which they fear could cause the
> government to be very intrusive.
>
This is very astute. I want to add another thing. To many Christian
homeschoolers there is an apparent (not necessarily real) disorder in
unschooling, and as I said in my last post, many Christians believe in an
inherent order. And they believe that one crucial way this order is
manifested is in familial pedagogy: mothers and fathers, love your children
and teach them well. The Judaic wisdom books play a great part in this as do
the writings of, say, Augustine. Indeed, here is Augustine: "The family is a
school of virtue in which God sets before us, day after day, a few people
whom we are to learn to love. This is the paideia of the heavenly Father, at
work upon both children and parents, building upon the love that comes
naturally to us in our families, but transforming it also into the image of
divine love."
Sounds good to me!
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2002 8:40:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bacwoodz@... writes:
How do you reconcile this with Jesus' commandment to "Follow Me"? He doesn't
say, "Go study, work it out, see if I'm the real deal, and then follow me if
I line up with your perspective."
This is what bothers most people about Christianity, and they use the
fundamentalists as whipping boys. Jesus, unlike most other religious
teachers, never said for people to follow their bliss, find what works for
them, take from him what works and leave the rest. He flat out called Himself
God, and the only God at that, and said that "if you're mine, you'll hear my
voice and follow me." That's a big deal, compared with other religions, even
if you don't believe it. Jesus is one tough character to have to confront, if
you're into confrontation!
But you're right, Christians tend to be followers. Who doesn't?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bacwoodz@... writes:
> I think it's more of a sin to be a follower...(following pastor..orHeather,
> whatever) without doing your own studying, thinking, working it out
How do you reconcile this with Jesus' commandment to "Follow Me"? He doesn't
say, "Go study, work it out, see if I'm the real deal, and then follow me if
I line up with your perspective."
This is what bothers most people about Christianity, and they use the
fundamentalists as whipping boys. Jesus, unlike most other religious
teachers, never said for people to follow their bliss, find what works for
them, take from him what works and leave the rest. He flat out called Himself
God, and the only God at that, and said that "if you're mine, you'll hear my
voice and follow me." That's a big deal, compared with other religions, even
if you don't believe it. Jesus is one tough character to have to confront, if
you're into confrontation!
But you're right, Christians tend to be followers. Who doesn't?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
As a very much in love with Jesus Christian, I totally agree. If
anyone is interested in the topic, there are two books that talk
about why following a pastor and even attending an institutional
church is unbiblical. (These books fall into the category
of "homechurching"). They are Rethinking the Wineskins and Who is
your Covering by Frank Viola.
Sheila
creativity and winging it can't be right.... etc.
anyone is interested in the topic, there are two books that talk
about why following a pastor and even attending an institutional
church is unbiblical. (These books fall into the category
of "homechurching"). They are Rethinking the Wineskins and Who is
your Covering by Frank Viola.
Sheila
> BUT... it is sad that the majority of Christians follow aminister, pastor, husband etc. and have perpetuated this idea that
creativity and winging it can't be right.... etc.
kayb85
I'll take a stab at that. Christians are supposed to follow Jesus.
But Jesus offers freedom to those who accept him as Lord and Savior.
We don't have to follow all kinds of laws. All that we are supposed
to do is summed up by loving the Lord with all our hearts soul mind
and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
For example, in the old testament, people needed to follow a sabath.
There were all kinds of rules about the sabbath. How far you could
walk, you couldn't work, even to light a fire, etc. Now for some
weird reason, many Christians don't get it when Jesus says that He is
now our Sabbath rest. We are to rest from our attempts at good works
in Him. Instead, many Christians teach their kids that they need to
follow the 10 commandments (even though we're not under the law
anymore) and that one of those commandments means to remember the
Sabbath and keep it Holy by going to Sunday School and Church on
Sundays!!!???!!! The church they go to has its origins in paganism,
right down to the three point sermon, building with the steeple on
top, and choir.
But we are to follow Him, by loving. We show our love to Him by
meeting with others to praise Him. We don't pray and sing praises
because we have to, but because we love Him and we want to. We love
others by being a friend to them and helping those in need. Again,
not out of a sense of obligation but because God has shown us how
good love is.
And Jesus created us as individuals, with individual likes and
dislikes, different talents, and different plans for our lives. I do
believe that God has a definite plan for our lives. That's part of
what unschooling is for me--getting out of the way so that the Holy
Spirit can guide the child's life. Each person was made to do
something special in the universe and only God knows which puzzle
pieces he needs to put his part of the puzzle together completely.
The Bible says to train up a child in the way HE should go, and the
way HE should go is probably going to be different than the way
someone else's child should go. God could have made us clones, but
He didn't.
Yes, Jesus did say that He was THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and
that no one comes to the Father except through Him. I do believe
that to be true. Just like I believe that unschooling is THE way to
educate a child. I do believe in absolute rights and wrongs. But
it's also true that in Christ, there is so much more freedom, so much
more individuality, so much more love. It's so hard to see the true
picture of Christianity, as Christ intended, without seeing the stuff
that the institutional church has added to the picture.
Sheila
But Jesus offers freedom to those who accept him as Lord and Savior.
We don't have to follow all kinds of laws. All that we are supposed
to do is summed up by loving the Lord with all our hearts soul mind
and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
For example, in the old testament, people needed to follow a sabath.
There were all kinds of rules about the sabbath. How far you could
walk, you couldn't work, even to light a fire, etc. Now for some
weird reason, many Christians don't get it when Jesus says that He is
now our Sabbath rest. We are to rest from our attempts at good works
in Him. Instead, many Christians teach their kids that they need to
follow the 10 commandments (even though we're not under the law
anymore) and that one of those commandments means to remember the
Sabbath and keep it Holy by going to Sunday School and Church on
Sundays!!!???!!! The church they go to has its origins in paganism,
right down to the three point sermon, building with the steeple on
top, and choir.
But we are to follow Him, by loving. We show our love to Him by
meeting with others to praise Him. We don't pray and sing praises
because we have to, but because we love Him and we want to. We love
others by being a friend to them and helping those in need. Again,
not out of a sense of obligation but because God has shown us how
good love is.
And Jesus created us as individuals, with individual likes and
dislikes, different talents, and different plans for our lives. I do
believe that God has a definite plan for our lives. That's part of
what unschooling is for me--getting out of the way so that the Holy
Spirit can guide the child's life. Each person was made to do
something special in the universe and only God knows which puzzle
pieces he needs to put his part of the puzzle together completely.
The Bible says to train up a child in the way HE should go, and the
way HE should go is probably going to be different than the way
someone else's child should go. God could have made us clones, but
He didn't.
Yes, Jesus did say that He was THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and
that no one comes to the Father except through Him. I do believe
that to be true. Just like I believe that unschooling is THE way to
educate a child. I do believe in absolute rights and wrongs. But
it's also true that in Christ, there is so much more freedom, so much
more individuality, so much more love. It's so hard to see the true
picture of Christianity, as Christ intended, without seeing the stuff
that the institutional church has added to the picture.
Sheila
> How do you reconcile this with Jesus' commandment to "Follow Me"?He doesn't
> say, "Go study, work it out, see if I'm the real deal, and thenfollow me if
> I line up with your perspective."the
>
> This is what bothers most people about Christianity, and they use
> fundamentalists as whipping boys. Jesus, unlike most otherreligious
> teachers, never said for people to follow their bliss, find whatworks for
> them, take from him what works and leave the rest. He flat outcalled Himself
> God, and the only God at that, and said that "if you're mine,you'll hear my
> voice and follow me." That's a big deal, compared with otherreligions, even
> if you don't believe it. Jesus is one tough character to have toconfront, if
> you're into confrontation!
>
> But you're right, Christians tend to be followers. Who doesn't?
>
> Bob
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>In CT, fifteen years ago, school boards had the say in whether a familyThis is the kind of thing I was talking about. According to the head of
>could homeschool or not. I was not involved then, but when our Hsing org
>wanted to change that, the head of HSLDA came and made a case to the State
>School Board in an effort that he claimed would help. His presentation was
>not accepted even by CT homeschoolers, so it created much confusion at the
>time.
the Canadian HSLDA, if they have even *one* member in a particular
province, they feel obligated to get involved in any discussions about
changing the hs law. They don't bother to try to get any sort of consensus
on what the local hs want. They just go ahead and push for the kind of law
they want. And they represent themselves as representing all or most hs,
which is certainly not true.
> >From where I sit, the HSLDA is helping by being a visible advocate andThis sentence seems pretty contradictory to me. They're helping by
>lobbyist, but along the way, they can't help but antagonize plenty of folks
>because ot their religious slant and political/legal tactics that seem to
>favor them instead of parents, sometimes.
lobbying but antagonizing many of the people they're supposed to be
lobbying for?
>What seems to happen is that the HSLDA divides groups of parents from eachExactly! The harder it seems to legally homeschool, the more members
>other on issues -- christians versus all the rest. I don't know if it can be
>really blamed on the org or not. Christians for one reason or another, seem
>to like state regulations. I can't figure that out. The HSLDA seems to be
>behind that. (if there were none, then what would all those lawyers fight
>against?
they'll get, and the more money they can channel into their political cause.
>On balance, I'd say HSLDA is doing more good than harm, but in states whereExactly. I think they might be doing some good for people just like them
>the climate is favorable for homeschooling, I see no need to join, and that
>means many states. Homeschooling is getting large enough to have lots of
>lawyers among its practitioners. Who needs outsiders?
and only in the unfavourable states. The rest is harm. I just hope they
stay the h*ll out of BC.
Tia
What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2002 10:07:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
sheran@... writes:
You nailed it. You pretty much laid out orthodoxy, its human element and
institutional trappings notwithstanding.
Sincerely,
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
> I'll take a stab at that.Sheila,
You nailed it. You pretty much laid out orthodoxy, its human element and
institutional trappings notwithstanding.
Sincerely,
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/02 9:58:42 AM, rsale515@... writes:
<< But you think that fear of hell, and slavish devotion to others is what
motivates fundamentalist C's: >>
Have you read many of the websites?
Have you heard their homeschooling reasons and seen their "admonishments" to
one another?
I can give websites if you can't find them yourself.
<< Moreover, what appears to
be slavish succumbing, may in fact be devotion. >>
Many are devoted to a vengeful God who's stoking up hell.
I was raised Southern Baptist. All the violin music behind all the "Jesus is
Peace" messages you could muster wouldn't change one hair on the head of one
Southern Baptist homeschooler, nor would it undo what HSLDA plans.
<<You may despise the object of their devotion, but are you not devoted to
someone, something? >>
I don't despise the object of their devotion. I point at the sky and say
blue and I point at their homeschooling reasons and say "fear" and I point at
their "spoil the rod" justifications and say "sick."
I'm devoted to truth and reason, maybe. Things I wasn't allowed to think
much about as a Baptist kid. The people at my church were sure I would go to
hell (in their terms "lose your faith") for going to the state university
instead of a Baptist college.
<<The fear of hell is not peculiar to fundamentalist Christians, and I doubt
it
is what motivates them to belong to HSLDA, or Promise Keepers, or any other
organization. >>
I've known too many people who couldn't tell the difference between being a
good person, pleasing God and avoiding hell. They were all one and the same
thing.
<<Your remarks above betray that you fancy yourself a freethinker. Yet those
statements are textbook generalizations -- everyone makes them.>>
What textbook would those statements be in?
I think there are more people who see Christianity from the outside and think
it IS all sweetness and light than there are those who have seen the mean and
fearful inside and will state what they know.
So belittling my knowledge (not idea, not parroting) does for a moment make
you look peacemaking and me small, but if you haven't read some of the
pervasive and dark conservative Christian exhortations, you might want to do
that before you co-sign for them as a movement or as a group.
Kirby was defending a occasional acquaintance the other day as being a good
guy. When he heard some of the things the boy had recently done, he said,
"Oh. Okay. I didn't know that." I told him it costs him reputation points
to defend someone else and he might want to be more careful before he vouches
for someone.
Sandra
<< But you think that fear of hell, and slavish devotion to others is what
motivates fundamentalist C's: >>
Have you read many of the websites?
Have you heard their homeschooling reasons and seen their "admonishments" to
one another?
I can give websites if you can't find them yourself.
<< Moreover, what appears to
be slavish succumbing, may in fact be devotion. >>
Many are devoted to a vengeful God who's stoking up hell.
I was raised Southern Baptist. All the violin music behind all the "Jesus is
Peace" messages you could muster wouldn't change one hair on the head of one
Southern Baptist homeschooler, nor would it undo what HSLDA plans.
<<You may despise the object of their devotion, but are you not devoted to
someone, something? >>
I don't despise the object of their devotion. I point at the sky and say
blue and I point at their homeschooling reasons and say "fear" and I point at
their "spoil the rod" justifications and say "sick."
I'm devoted to truth and reason, maybe. Things I wasn't allowed to think
much about as a Baptist kid. The people at my church were sure I would go to
hell (in their terms "lose your faith") for going to the state university
instead of a Baptist college.
<<The fear of hell is not peculiar to fundamentalist Christians, and I doubt
it
is what motivates them to belong to HSLDA, or Promise Keepers, or any other
organization. >>
I've known too many people who couldn't tell the difference between being a
good person, pleasing God and avoiding hell. They were all one and the same
thing.
<<Your remarks above betray that you fancy yourself a freethinker. Yet those
statements are textbook generalizations -- everyone makes them.>>
What textbook would those statements be in?
I think there are more people who see Christianity from the outside and think
it IS all sweetness and light than there are those who have seen the mean and
fearful inside and will state what they know.
So belittling my knowledge (not idea, not parroting) does for a moment make
you look peacemaking and me small, but if you haven't read some of the
pervasive and dark conservative Christian exhortations, you might want to do
that before you co-sign for them as a movement or as a group.
Kirby was defending a occasional acquaintance the other day as being a good
guy. When he heard some of the things the boy had recently done, he said,
"Oh. Okay. I didn't know that." I told him it costs him reputation points
to defend someone else and he might want to be more careful before he vouches
for someone.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/02 10:33:59 AM, rsale515@... writes:
<< But you're right, Christians tend to be followers. Who doesn't? >>
That kind of rhetorical question puts Christians on a par with all other
humans, right at the 50th percentile of "following." It says "Christians may
enjoy all those sheep and shepherd analogies, but they're no more sheeplike
than anyone else."
Sandra
<< But you're right, Christians tend to be followers. Who doesn't? >>
That kind of rhetorical question puts Christians on a par with all other
humans, right at the 50th percentile of "following." It says "Christians may
enjoy all those sheep and shepherd analogies, but they're no more sheeplike
than anyone else."
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/14/02 11:33 AM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:
There are *many* views of Christianity and many of them conflict with each
other. Whatever Christians believe, the one thing they have in common is
that they believe they are right. Not necessarily right as in Ultimate Truth
right, but on the path that feels right to them.
Our own ways of thinking seem so totally obvious that it can be baffling how
someone can believe something totally different so it seems they must be
less well informed or less intelligent. But that's probably not the best
assumption to make. In fact it's fascinating learning how people can view
the same information and come to vastly different conclusions about it.
If anyone thinks Christianity encompasses a vast array of beliefs, it holds
nothing to Hinduism ;-) Hinduism embraces beliefs from the primitive to the
mind bogglingly complex.
Perhaps internally they're accusing each other of not getting it and not
being real Hindus. But at least from the outside it looks peacefully
accepting!
Joyce
> A Christian who is running around worrying about avoiding hellIn your view of Christianity.
> doesn't fully grasp God's grace and unconditional love, or the
> freedom we have in Christ.
There are *many* views of Christianity and many of them conflict with each
other. Whatever Christians believe, the one thing they have in common is
that they believe they are right. Not necessarily right as in Ultimate Truth
right, but on the path that feels right to them.
Our own ways of thinking seem so totally obvious that it can be baffling how
someone can believe something totally different so it seems they must be
less well informed or less intelligent. But that's probably not the best
assumption to make. In fact it's fascinating learning how people can view
the same information and come to vastly different conclusions about it.
If anyone thinks Christianity encompasses a vast array of beliefs, it holds
nothing to Hinduism ;-) Hinduism embraces beliefs from the primitive to the
mind bogglingly complex.
Perhaps internally they're accusing each other of not getting it and not
being real Hindus. But at least from the outside it looks peacefully
accepting!
Joyce
Heather Woodward
Bob,
I am speaking of following people - many Christians I know, will run to their pastor, minister, priest when they have a question. They will not jump into their Bible - and try and figure it out. - I don't mean to insult anyone who does this - as I know many feel these people are more knowledgeable in these areas etc. - The Bible says "It the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search it out"
Jesus, unlike most other religious
teachers, never said for people to follow their bliss, find what works for
them, take from him what works and leave the rest
I agree with this - I guess I didn't make myself clear - I don't mean to say I go for the "whatever pleases me" mentality. But I do find there to be alot of extracurricular human tradition - along with ideas of things like heaven and hell that stem from Greek Mythology, Philosophy and the blending of beliefs to create a "religion" - which on the face is based on the Bible - but the preconceived notions are so strong that one cannot get by them. An example is the Pope. - I apologize if I offend anyone here - but he is supposed to be God's repetitive on Earth - the Holy Father...and yet the Bible says "Call no man thy Father, save the Father which is in Heaven". So masses follow him - take what he says as infallible - and are deeply rooted in tradition -
One of the great things about Jesus was that he really knew what motivated people. How else could he excuse those who under the Jewish Law should have been stoned - and yet come down hard on the scribes and Pharisees? We are to model our character after Him, and it takes working it out. Thinking about what he says, and applying it. - Not just listening to the Sunday morning sermon and going about our routine. It is a personal endeavor. I agree wholeheartedly we should be following Jesus - but he never said - go to your pastor for all the answers.
Heather
I am speaking of following people - many Christians I know, will run to their pastor, minister, priest when they have a question. They will not jump into their Bible - and try and figure it out. - I don't mean to insult anyone who does this - as I know many feel these people are more knowledgeable in these areas etc. - The Bible says "It the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search it out"
Jesus, unlike most other religious
teachers, never said for people to follow their bliss, find what works for
them, take from him what works and leave the rest
I agree with this - I guess I didn't make myself clear - I don't mean to say I go for the "whatever pleases me" mentality. But I do find there to be alot of extracurricular human tradition - along with ideas of things like heaven and hell that stem from Greek Mythology, Philosophy and the blending of beliefs to create a "religion" - which on the face is based on the Bible - but the preconceived notions are so strong that one cannot get by them. An example is the Pope. - I apologize if I offend anyone here - but he is supposed to be God's repetitive on Earth - the Holy Father...and yet the Bible says "Call no man thy Father, save the Father which is in Heaven". So masses follow him - take what he says as infallible - and are deeply rooted in tradition -
One of the great things about Jesus was that he really knew what motivated people. How else could he excuse those who under the Jewish Law should have been stoned - and yet come down hard on the scribes and Pharisees? We are to model our character after Him, and it takes working it out. Thinking about what he says, and applying it. - Not just listening to the Sunday morning sermon and going about our routine. It is a personal endeavor. I agree wholeheartedly we should be following Jesus - but he never said - go to your pastor for all the answers.
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: rsale515@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2239 - Ned back to Tia re HSLDA
In a message dated 8/14/2002 8:40:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bacwoodz@... writes:
> I think it's more of a sin to be a follower...(following pastor..or
> whatever) without doing your own studying, thinking, working it out
Heather,
How do you reconcile this with Jesus' commandment to "Follow Me"? He doesn't
say, "Go study, work it out, see if I'm the real deal, and then follow me if
I line up with your perspective."
This is what bothers most people about Christianity, and they use the
fundamentalists as whipping boys. Jesus, unlike most other religious
teachers, never said for people to follow their bliss, find what works for
them, take from him what works and leave the rest. He flat out called Himself
God, and the only God at that, and said that "if you're mine, you'll hear my
voice and follow me." That's a big deal, compared with other religions, even
if you don't believe it. Jesus is one tough character to have to confront, if
you're into confrontation!
But you're right, Christians tend to be followers. Who doesn't?
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2002 1:46:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bacwoodz@... writes:
Thank you for getting at the issue head on. I know exactly what you are
saying about the extracurricular, the blind leading the blind, and I agree
with you. Though I make no claim to not be myopic.
The problem remains, however, that any follower of Christ is by default a
follower of someone else. All we have of the record of Christ is the result
of tradition -- the writings and revelations and opinions of others. To claim
to love Jesus but hate the established religion is OK, except for the fact
that the established religion became just that the moment the record got
written and began circulating as the Word of God in the 1st Century.
So though you might put off going to your pastor, or any other Bible scholar,
for advice, the very Bible you personally search to find answers is the
result of tradition. Does that mean it is any less true? Not at all. Martin
Luther relied upon his sole private reading and understanding of the
Scriptures -- sola scriptura, after all. But even he knew he must at least
pick and choose his tradition.
In other words, unless you're some sort of Gnostic, the record of the Jesus
you love is the result of a tradition which is the result of people following
people. I don't doubt that you can privately identify Christ in those
writings, but it is the established Church that some seem to claim to be
above, which gave us those writings.
Finally, as I'm sure you agree, it is the sick (mentally, spiritually, and
physically) whom Jesus came for. I am not excusing freaky Southern Baptists,
or the equally freaky Evangelical Lutheran Church in the US, for the lives
they destroy, but the bottom line is that the Gospel is based upon Christ's
righteousness, not ours, not the Pope's, not the SB's, and not Bill
Gothard's, and thank God for that.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bacwoodz@... writes:
> I agree wholeheartedly we should be following Jesus - but he never said - goHeather,
> to your pastor for all the answers.
Thank you for getting at the issue head on. I know exactly what you are
saying about the extracurricular, the blind leading the blind, and I agree
with you. Though I make no claim to not be myopic.
The problem remains, however, that any follower of Christ is by default a
follower of someone else. All we have of the record of Christ is the result
of tradition -- the writings and revelations and opinions of others. To claim
to love Jesus but hate the established religion is OK, except for the fact
that the established religion became just that the moment the record got
written and began circulating as the Word of God in the 1st Century.
So though you might put off going to your pastor, or any other Bible scholar,
for advice, the very Bible you personally search to find answers is the
result of tradition. Does that mean it is any less true? Not at all. Martin
Luther relied upon his sole private reading and understanding of the
Scriptures -- sola scriptura, after all. But even he knew he must at least
pick and choose his tradition.
In other words, unless you're some sort of Gnostic, the record of the Jesus
you love is the result of a tradition which is the result of people following
people. I don't doubt that you can privately identify Christ in those
writings, but it is the established Church that some seem to claim to be
above, which gave us those writings.
Finally, as I'm sure you agree, it is the sick (mentally, spiritually, and
physically) whom Jesus came for. I am not excusing freaky Southern Baptists,
or the equally freaky Evangelical Lutheran Church in the US, for the lives
they destroy, but the bottom line is that the Gospel is based upon Christ's
righteousness, not ours, not the Pope's, not the SB's, and not Bill
Gothard's, and thank God for that.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joseph Fuerst
Bob,
I'm snipping your post and just interjecting a comment into this. Excuse me
if I haven't been closely following anything here....I'm not even a true
'lurker' these days...more of a 'deleter' b/c my life has become wildly
complicted. But this I couldn't resist for some reason.
For those who believe in Christ ....reading the Bible is a beginning af
having a relationship with him. For those with Faith often call the
Scripture "the Living Word". I think it's John's gospel which beautifully
begins with a descrition of creation with, "In the beginning was the
Word....." A real treasure for linguistic types!
At any rate, I am far from fundamentalist, {side note: I guess one
reason I'm not fundamentalist is that would be too contradictory......how
would a fundamentalist reconcile the Genisis creation story with John's
gospel that says the Word is the beginning?; and how can the scripture be
alive if one is fundamentalist? --I guess that's 2 reasons.} but have faith
in the words of scripture as Living and being and enabling me to grow in
faith hope and love.
Susan
off to lurkdom, or deleting-dom, as I try to survive the latest upheavals
in my family life.
I'm snipping your post and just interjecting a comment into this. Excuse me
if I haven't been closely following anything here....I'm not even a true
'lurker' these days...more of a 'deleter' b/c my life has become wildly
complicted. But this I couldn't resist for some reason.
For those who believe in Christ ....reading the Bible is a beginning af
having a relationship with him. For those with Faith often call the
Scripture "the Living Word". I think it's John's gospel which beautifully
begins with a descrition of creation with, "In the beginning was the
Word....." A real treasure for linguistic types!
At any rate, I am far from fundamentalist, {side note: I guess one
reason I'm not fundamentalist is that would be too contradictory......how
would a fundamentalist reconcile the Genisis creation story with John's
gospel that says the Word is the beginning?; and how can the scripture be
alive if one is fundamentalist? --I guess that's 2 reasons.} but have faith
in the words of scripture as Living and being and enabling me to grow in
faith hope and love.
Susan
off to lurkdom, or deleting-dom, as I try to survive the latest upheavals
in my family life.
> The problem remains, however, that any follower of Christ is by default aresult
> follower of someone else. All we have of the record of Christ is the
> of tradition -- the writings and revelations and opinions of others. Toclaim
> to love Jesus but hate the established religion is OK, except for the factJesus
> that the established religion became just that the moment the record got
> written and began circulating as the Word of God in the 1st Century.
>
> In other words, unless you're some sort of Gnostic, the record of the
> you love is the result of a tradition which is the result of peoplefollowing
> people. I don't doubt that you can privately identify Christ in those
> writings, but it is the established Church that some seem to claim to be
> above, which gave us those writings.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2002 11:02:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I didn't belittle you. You threw out a blanket accusation, and one that is
all too common, and more importantly, one that is not true, and I've called
you on it.
Please send me the web links if you think I'm mistaken.
In the meantime, that you're carrying a lot of baggage laid on you by screwed
up Southern Baptists is to be regretted. But the bottom line is that you let
it get the best of you when you said that the desire that fundamentalist
Christians have for state homeschooling regulations is based upon a fear of
hell. This is not true, and a slur of fundamentalist Christians who love God,
love their neighbors, and who only seek to see some order in the political
realm -- something that is their birthright not only as Americans, but as
human beings. It has nothing to do with needing some minimal rules set before
them so that they might avoid the wrath of God.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> So belittling my knowledge (not idea, not parroting) does for a moment makeSandra,
> you look peacemaking and me small, but if you haven't read some of the
> pervasive and dark conservative Christian exhortations, you might want to
> do
> that before you co-sign for them as a movement or as a group.
I didn't belittle you. You threw out a blanket accusation, and one that is
all too common, and more importantly, one that is not true, and I've called
you on it.
Please send me the web links if you think I'm mistaken.
In the meantime, that you're carrying a lot of baggage laid on you by screwed
up Southern Baptists is to be regretted. But the bottom line is that you let
it get the best of you when you said that the desire that fundamentalist
Christians have for state homeschooling regulations is based upon a fear of
hell. This is not true, and a slur of fundamentalist Christians who love God,
love their neighbors, and who only seek to see some order in the political
realm -- something that is their birthright not only as Americans, but as
human beings. It has nothing to do with needing some minimal rules set before
them so that they might avoid the wrath of God.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/02 5:11:27 PM, rsale515@... writes:
<< You threw out a blanket accusation, and one that is
all too common, and more importantly, one that is not true, and I've called
you on it.
<<Please send me the web links if you think I'm mistaken. >>
Here's a tiny sample of what's easily found. I did a search on hell and
homeschooling, but my computer froze up. Some of these sites I knew about
already. Some I've found otherwise.
Here's a quote. It doesn't say hell, but the implication about eternity is
pretty clear.
"None of these "essentials" for this school year can be found apart from
Jesus Christ. He has already purchased all of this for you through His shed
blood on the cross. If you have been taking Him for granted or leaving Him
out of your "back to school" plans, won't you take time to seek His face
today? He promises to meet with you, if you will but seek Him with your whole
heart. Take time to discover His plans for your family and put them into
practice this year --the benefits reaped will be of eternal value!"
http://www.homeschooldigest.com/
http://www.home-school.com/Articles/CaseAncientHistory.html
http://homeschoolunitstudies.com/Samples/Adam/abram.html
http://www.chfweb.co://www.chfweb.com/articles/week56.htm
<<You learn that children are utterly incompetent, incapable of even the
slightest good thing, always, always doing the wrong thing and without hope
of ever doing or changing anything of themselves.>>
http://www.homeschoolyellowpages.com/ttips_2.html
The article that one's from asks how many times you must spank, and the
answer is 70 times 7. Patiently, continuously, in obedience to God. Spank.
Or what?? They don't say, but we all know.
Oh. The paragraphs right after the one above are:
<<You learn to say: I am really a forgetful sinner just like my son. God has
been so patient, tenderhearted and merciful to me and in thankfulness I can
be patient and tenderhearted too.>>
<<You learn to cling desperately to God on your knees in prayer and beseech
him to change your child. You won't rely on your activities of spanking and
reproof to do the work but hope in His promises to reward your good efforts
of obedience to Him.>>
The constant spankings are likened to being tenderhearted and merciful.
The important thing is your child is changed.
Because if he is NOT changed, he will not be rewarded for obedience to God.
Sandra
<< You threw out a blanket accusation, and one that is
all too common, and more importantly, one that is not true, and I've called
you on it.
<<Please send me the web links if you think I'm mistaken. >>
Here's a tiny sample of what's easily found. I did a search on hell and
homeschooling, but my computer froze up. Some of these sites I knew about
already. Some I've found otherwise.
Here's a quote. It doesn't say hell, but the implication about eternity is
pretty clear.
"None of these "essentials" for this school year can be found apart from
Jesus Christ. He has already purchased all of this for you through His shed
blood on the cross. If you have been taking Him for granted or leaving Him
out of your "back to school" plans, won't you take time to seek His face
today? He promises to meet with you, if you will but seek Him with your whole
heart. Take time to discover His plans for your family and put them into
practice this year --the benefits reaped will be of eternal value!"
http://www.homeschooldigest.com/
http://www.home-school.com/Articles/CaseAncientHistory.html
http://homeschoolunitstudies.com/Samples/Adam/abram.html
http://www.chfweb.co://www.chfweb.com/articles/week56.htm
<<You learn that children are utterly incompetent, incapable of even the
slightest good thing, always, always doing the wrong thing and without hope
of ever doing or changing anything of themselves.>>
http://www.homeschoolyellowpages.com/ttips_2.html
The article that one's from asks how many times you must spank, and the
answer is 70 times 7. Patiently, continuously, in obedience to God. Spank.
Or what?? They don't say, but we all know.
Oh. The paragraphs right after the one above are:
<<You learn to say: I am really a forgetful sinner just like my son. God has
been so patient, tenderhearted and merciful to me and in thankfulness I can
be patient and tenderhearted too.>>
<<You learn to cling desperately to God on your knees in prayer and beseech
him to change your child. You won't rely on your activities of spanking and
reproof to do the work but hope in His promises to reward your good efforts
of obedience to Him.>>
The constant spankings are likened to being tenderhearted and merciful.
The important thing is your child is changed.
Because if he is NOT changed, he will not be rewarded for obedience to God.
Sandra
KT
>Or was that just the backblast from hell freezing over? lol. That was
>
> I did a search on hell and
>homeschooling, but my computer froze up.
>
funny.
Tuck
[email protected]
Sandra,
Thanks for those. I haven't read them deeply yet, but I know you are about to
head to Sacramento (all the locals here are headed there), and I appreciate
your time.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for those. I haven't read them deeply yet, but I know you are about to
head to Sacramento (all the locals here are headed there), and I appreciate
your time.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/02 8:59:40 PM, rsale515@... writes:
<< Thanks for those. I haven't read them deeply yet, >>
Don't read them deeply.
Just glance until you get the gist and then close them. They're not all so
pleasant.
Time for the Evelyn Wood Speed Reading!!!
Sandra
<< Thanks for those. I haven't read them deeply yet, >>
Don't read them deeply.
Just glance until you get the gist and then close them. They're not all so
pleasant.
Time for the Evelyn Wood Speed Reading!!!
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 8/14/02 11:57 AM, rsale515@... at rsale515@... wrote:
(Asked in a musing way.)
Joyce
> Maybe it's love that motivates them. And that what appears as fear, may inIs it true love if the consequences of not loving are eternal damnation?
> fact be a love of things like devotion, order, absolute truth, hierarchies of
> value in art, method, life, eternal justice, God. Moreover, what appears to
> be slavish succumbing, may in fact be devotion.
(Asked in a musing way.)
Joyce
[email protected]
Is it true love if the consequences of not loving are eternal damnation?
(Asked in a musing way.)
This struck me as very similar to if there's no choice, there's no choice.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
(Asked in a musing way.)
This struck me as very similar to if there's no choice, there's no choice.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/15/2002 3:28:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
That rhetorical "musing" (I love that word) begs a scientific equivalent: Is
2+2 equal to 4, if the consequences of 2+3 are eternally NOT eternally 4? I
would say yes.
Theologically and philosophically you could say that if God is true love,
than anything other than true love is not God. Taken a step further, if
Heaven is the residence of eternal love/God, and eternal blessing, then hell
(or call it what you will) must be its opposite.
Neither of those answers takes into consideration the idea of justice, or the
Gospel.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> Is it true love if the consequences of not loving are eternal damnation?Joyce,
That rhetorical "musing" (I love that word) begs a scientific equivalent: Is
2+2 equal to 4, if the consequences of 2+3 are eternally NOT eternally 4? I
would say yes.
Theologically and philosophically you could say that if God is true love,
than anything other than true love is not God. Taken a step further, if
Heaven is the residence of eternal love/God, and eternal blessing, then hell
(or call it what you will) must be its opposite.
Neither of those answers takes into consideration the idea of justice, or the
Gospel.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/15/2002 9:08:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rsale515@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rsale515@... writes:
> IsOops, that should say "...2+3 are eternally NOT equal to 4?"
> 2+2 equal to 4, if the consequences of 2+3 are eternally NOT eternally 4?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> In other words, unless you're some sort of Gnostic, the record ofthe Jesus
> you love is the result of a tradition which is the result of peoplefollowing
> people. I don't doubt that you can privately identify Christ inthose
> writings, but it is the established Church that some seem to claimto be
> above, which gave us those writings.I don't think it was the church (as in the institutional church) who
gave us the Bible. It was individuals who were inspired by the Holy
Spirit to write so that we could understand more about God. The
institutional church simply compiled them together into one book.
And of course other people weren't inspired to write other things too-
-inspirational books, poems, songs, etc.
So when I follow the Scriptures, I am following God's Words alone. I
recognize that God chose to use certain people to write His words in
order to reveal more about Himself to the human race, but if those
people hadn't willingly surrendered to His calling for their life, He
would have used someone else who was willing.
Sheila
kayb85
John 1 -- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God
and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him
all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been
made. In Him was life and that life was the light of men. And later
on in verse 14, it tells us who "the Word" is...The Word became flesh
and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of
the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
And then John goes on to say that He was the one that he preached
about in the wilderness.
So that's not contradictory. It's not saying that the Word was the
beginning. It's saying that the Word was there in the beginning.
That Word (Jesus) was God and participated with the other parts of
the Trinity in the creation of the world. The very Jesus who came to
earth and became flesh was the same God who created us. The Creator
was crucified by His creation.
Sheila
and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him
all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been
made. In Him was life and that life was the light of men. And later
on in verse 14, it tells us who "the Word" is...The Word became flesh
and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of
the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
And then John goes on to say that He was the one that he preached
about in the wilderness.
So that's not contradictory. It's not saying that the Word was the
beginning. It's saying that the Word was there in the beginning.
That Word (Jesus) was God and participated with the other parts of
the Trinity in the creation of the world. The very Jesus who came to
earth and became flesh was the same God who created us. The Creator
was crucified by His creation.
Sheila
> At any rate, I am far from fundamentalist, {side note: Iguess one
> reason I'm not fundamentalist is that would be toocontradictory......how
> would a fundamentalist reconcile the Genisis creation story withJohn's
> gospel that says the Word is the beginning?; and how can thescripture be
> alive if one is fundamentalist? --I guess that's 2 reasons.} buthave faith
> in the words of scripture as Living and being and enabling me togrow in
> faith hope and love.upheavals
>
> Susan
> off to lurkdom, or deleting-dom, as I try to survive the latest
> in my family life.default a
>
> > The problem remains, however, that any follower of Christ is by
> > follower of someone else. All we have of the record of Christ isthe
> resultothers. To
> > of tradition -- the writings and revelations and opinions of
> claimthe fact
> > to love Jesus but hate the established religion is OK, except for
> > that the established religion became just that the moment therecord got
> > written and began circulating as the Word of God in the 1stCentury.
> >the
>
> > In other words, unless you're some sort of Gnostic, the record of
> Jesuspeople
> > you love is the result of a tradition which is the result of
> followingthose
> > people. I don't doubt that you can privately identify Christ in
> > writings, but it is the established Church that some seem toclaim to be
> > above, which gave us those writings.