[email protected]

I saw this term pop up in the diapers/babies discussion, and it struck me
as a meaningless word. I'm not trying to be offensive, but If you think
about it, when is a child at a "pre" unschooling stage? It's rather like
"learning to X" as opposed to "doing X" At what point do you cross
over?

I have a 3yo daughter, and although she would be considered a
"preschooler" in the world at large, I consider that she is already an
unschooler, not a "pre-unschooler".

This may seem like a small nit, but I think it's an important one.

Kevin Tucker

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/12/02 4:34:33 PM, kevin.tucker@... writes:

<< when is a child at a "pre" unschooling stage? It's rather like
"learning to X" as opposed to "doing X" At what point do you cross
over? >>

I've heard both sides argued pretty convincingly. But until a child is the
age of compulsory education in his state of residence, what would be the
difference between unschooling and just not being in school yet?

What if every parent who intended to and did send a child to kindergarten at
5 said "up until that time, we were unschoolers, but now it's time for him to
go to school"?

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>
>I've heard both sides argued pretty convincingly. But until a child is the
>age of compulsory education in his state of residence, what would be the
>difference between unschooling and just not being in school yet?

One difference would be that they aren't going to be in school. It isn't a
matter of yet. Or maybe it means that they don't do any formal "preschool"
stuff with the kid, like a lot of people do. Maybe the family is just
living their lives with their kids, just like they are going to when the
child reaches the magic age of compulsory education. In states where the
magic age is 7, for instance, do families not call it unschooling until then?


>What if every parent who intended to and did send a child to kindergarten at
>5 said "up until that time, we were unschoolers, but now it's time for him to
>go to school"?

But why would people do that? I can see a few families changing their
minds during those years, but most don't. If they are planning to
unschool, most of them do. Actually, it can be useful for some people to
start noticing all the learning that goes on during the "preschool"
years. Then they're less like to start panicking when their kid doesn't
happen to learn something that his friends are learning at school.

I could see making the distinction if people were going to be doing
something very different with their kids once they were school age, but we
didn't do anything different with Lars when he turned 5, and neither did my
daughter with my granddaughter. I don't think there's anything magic about
school age, at least to us types. <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

zenmomma *

>>I have a 3yo daughter, and although she would be considered a
"preschooler" in the world at large, I consider that she is already an
unschooler, not a "pre-unschooler".>>

How about she's just a 3 year old? I'm being serious and you brought up a
good point. We use the term unschooling because it's sort of well known, but
lots of us wish we weren't defining our learning in terms of school at all.

The terms unschooler, pre-unschooler and such are helpful for parents who
are stressed about moving away from the school frame of mind. If everyone
they know is sending their kids to school or pre-school, then defining what
they're doing as unschooling helps alleviate some of those society-induced
fears about learning.

But you are so right, there is really no difference between learning at 3
and learning at 7 and learning at 16. The stuff they learn may be different
stuff, but it's all along the life continuum. There needs to be no break
where you say "Now I am an unschooler." It's all life and it all counts.

BTW it is so cool to see so many parents here who have such little kids. It
gives me chills to think of all those precious little beings who wil never
have to be forced into schooling. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

zenmomma *

>>But until a child is the age of compulsory education in his state of
>>residence, what would be the difference between unschooling and just not
>>being in school yet?>>

The level of interest of the parents? The interaction between parent and
child? Maybe. Maybe no difference at all.

>>What if every parent who intended to and did send a child to kindergarten
>>at 5 said "up until that time, we were unschoolers, but now it's time for
>>him to go to school"?>>

Maybe some other folks might notice how much that "unschooling" kid learned
at home? Maybe not. Okay probably not. LOL But I still think a parent who
has chosen to unschool when the child is 3 is an unschooling parent in an
unschooling family. There's a change of attitude that comes with recognizing
the value in that unschooling label and lifestyle.

Life is good.
~Mary


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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/12/2002 9:13:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:


> But I still think a parent who
> has chosen to unschool when the child is 3 is an unschooling parent in an
> unschooling family. There's a change of attitude that comes with
> recognizing
> the value in that unschooling label and lifestyle.
>
>

I agree with this, Mary. My kids are almost-5yo and almost-3yo. I think the
difference is in the mindset.
Amy Kagey
Usborne Books consultant
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366"> </A>U<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">sborne Books Online Catalog</A>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

> How about she's just a 3 year old? I'm being serious and you
brought up a
> good point. We use the term unschooling because it's sort of well
known, but
> lots of us wish we weren't defining our learning in terms of school
at all.
>

Today my mother in law asked me if my 5 year old son would "have to"
start kindergarten in the fall. She knows we homeschool--she was
thinking in terms of starting a strict "program". I told her that I
don't have to hand anything into the state until he's 8. I don't
even know how I would go about explaining unschooling. Most of us
who are doing it now learned about it in increments in order to
accept and understand it. For a grandma who never even heard of
anyone homeschooling before, doing a kindergarten school-at-home
program is a radical enough concept to grasp! I'm just glad I got
past the "won't they miss going on the schoolbus" stage with them. :)
Maybe one of these days I'll throw out the word unschooling with a
brief explanation about learning based on the child's interests.
Sheila

KT

>
>
> For a grandma who never even heard of
>anyone homeschooling before, doing a kindergarten school-at-home
>program is a radical enough concept to grasp!
>
You know her best, of course, but I've found that with older people, you
can relate it to things they've spent their lifetime learning, and they
get it much faster (than people who currently have children in
school-for sure). It helps if they're not steeped in east coast
academia, too. ;)

My grandmother, who will be 97 this year, is the ultimate unschooler's
example. An active woman all her days who was always attempting to learn
some new skill--guitar, roofing, new ways to garden. That's what I
remember about her just when I was a teenager--and she was in her 70s
then, and I've heard lots of stories of her attempts and victories. (I
almost said she "was" the ultimate example, since Alzheimer's has now
claimed most of her memory--but then my uncle was telling me last week
about how she was interested in how the electric seats work in his new
car--STILL learning something!)

My dad, thankfully, lives by her example, and he completely *got*
unschooling without me even trying.

Of course, some old people are stodgy and hard to get along with. I
just try to let them talk about their medical conditions. ;)

Tuck

joanna514

> I could see making the distinction if people were going to be doing
> something very different with their kids once they were school age,
but we
> didn't do anything different with Lars when he turned 5, and
neither did my
> daughter with my granddaughter. I don't think there's anything
magic about
> school age, at least to us types. <g>
> Tia
>

I agree. And I absolutely think people should call themselves
unschoolers, if they have an unschooling philosophy.
But I wouldn't say my 3 year old is an unschooler. There is no
school for her to "un" from.
There is "un-ing" for me, in my thoughts and perceptions (still...)
and for my older kids, in simply not going to it, and believing in
themselves even with the world around them telling them things aren't
as simple as that.
But my 3 year old....she's three, and doen't have to be anything but
that.
Joanna

kayb85

> But my 3 year old....she's three, and doen't have to be anything
but
> that.

Until some well-meaning relative asks if she knows how to sing her
abcs yet. ;)
Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/2002 6:07:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Tuck@... writes:
> I've found that with older people, you
> can relate it [unschooling] to things they've spent their lifetime
> learning, and they
> get it much faster

I think this is great advice.

B


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Sandra,

Good point. I see the difference as being one of intent. For example, my
attitudes, expectations, and treatment of my child's activities are
different than those of my parents and other family members. They think
that her abilities will cause to be advanced "once she gets into school",
while I think her abilities are a natural occurrence. Also, it takes time
for us to "unschool" ourselves!

Kevin

In a message dated 8/12/02 4:34:33 PM, kevin.tucker@... writes:

<< when is a child at a "pre" unschooling stage? It's rather like
"learning to X" as opposed to "doing X" At what point do you cross
over? >>

I've heard both sides argued pretty convincingly. But until a child is
the
age of compulsory education in his state of residence, what would be the
difference between unschooling and just not being in school yet?

What if every parent who intended to and did send a child to kindergarten
at
5 said "up until that time, we were unschoolers, but now it's time for him
to
go to school"?

Sandra

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[email protected]

You're right. I usually do just call her a 3yo. (BTW, the other day,
someone asked her about school and she says, "I do homeschool"!) :)
I agree, it is neat to see that so many kids are not being introduced to
school at all. My daugher (Serena) has a friend who is in kindergarten,
and I can tell a difference in their attitudes already. Serena taught
herself to swim, and has no problem at all in going underwater, swimming
to the bottom, etc. while her friend does not do these things, and when I
asked her mom why, she said, "they're not expected to do that in her
swimming lessons class".

Kevin





"zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>
08/12/2002 06:05 PM
Please respond to Unschooling-dotcom


To: [email protected]
cc:
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What exactly is PRE-Unschooling?



>>I have a 3yo daughter, and although she would be considered a
"preschooler" in the world at large, I consider that she is already an
unschooler, not a "pre-unschooler".>>

How about she's just a 3 year old? I'm being serious and you brought up a
good point. We use the term unschooling because it's sort of well known,
but
lots of us wish we weren't defining our learning in terms of school at
all.

The terms unschooler, pre-unschooler and such are helpful for parents who
are stressed about moving away from the school frame of mind. If everyone
they know is sending their kids to school or pre-school, then defining
what
they're doing as unschooling helps alleviate some of those society-induced

fears about learning.

But you are so right, there is really no difference between learning at 3
and learning at 7 and learning at 16. The stuff they learn may be
different
stuff, but it's all along the life continuum. There needs to be no break
where you say "Now I am an unschooler." It's all life and it all counts.

BTW it is so cool to see so many parents here who have such little kids.
It
gives me chills to think of all those precious little beings who wil never

have to be forced into schooling. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT



If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@... ) or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/02 9:44:35 AM, kevin.tucker@... writes:

<< Sandra,

Good point. I see the difference as being one of intent. For example, my
attitudes, expectations, and treatment of my child's activities are
different than those of my parents and other family members. They think
that her abilities will cause to be advanced "once she gets into school",
while I think her abilities are a natural occurrence. Also, it takes time
for us to "unschool" ourselves! >>

And I figured (correctly this time! <g>) that defining one end of the
spectrum would inspire some good arguments for the other end and points in
between!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/02 10:01:57 AM, kevin.tucker@... writes:

<< Serena taught
herself to swim, and has no problem at all in going underwater, swimming
to the bottom, etc. while her friend does not do these things, and when I
asked her mom why, she said, "they're not expected to do that in her
swimming lessons class". >>

eeeyew.
I shuddered reading that!

When remember learning to play piano and clarinet and hanging out with kids
who would never dream of playing something they hadn't been assigned by a
teacher. Why?

I just picked up whatever I could find and tried it, and soon learned to tell
by looking whether I'd be able to play it or not, which was the beginnings of
reading music without an instrument in my hands, which many musicians can't
do.

<< (BTW, the other day,
someone asked her about school and she says, "I do homeschool"!) :)
I agree, it is neat to see that so many kids are not being introduced to
school at all. >>

When Kirby was six or seven and Marty wasn't "school-age yet," we thought
maybe Marty would want to go to school, because much of his life has been
doing the opposite of what Kirby had done. I remember we were in a grocery
store and someone said something to Kirby about not being in school and MARTY
chirped up "We're homeschooled!"

Huh!

That was the first indication I'd ever had that he was into the idea himself.

I haven't asked for a few years, but the first several years I'd always ask
each child if he or she wanted to go to school that year or stay home. Holly
was thinking about school one year, but when she visited the playground and
saw that kindergarten kids never mixed with first and second graders (which
her friends/neighbors were) she decided against it.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>My daugher (Serena) has a friend who is in kindergarten,and I can tell a
>>difference in their attitudes already. Serena taught
herself to swim, and has no problem at all in going underwater, swimming to
the bottom, etc. while her friend does not do these things, and when I asked
her mom why, she said, "they're not expected to do that in her swimming
lessons class".>>

I'm often asked where Casey took swimming lessons. Parents seem to have a
hard time blieving that she learned to swim by going with me to the pool and
being in the water. It's odd how things have turned around so. My parents
would never have thought to put me in swim lessons. That was what my older
brothers were there for, to show me how to swim. ;-)

OTOH at least Serena's friend doesn't have a mom who is worried that she's
not swimming yet and putting her in remedial swimming. Or worse yet, forcing
her to go underwater before she's ready.

Life is good.
~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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[email protected]

---------- "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...> writes:
>>>I'm often asked where Casey took swimming lessons. Parents seem to have a hard time blieving that she learned to swim by going with me to the pool and being in the water. It's odd how things have turned around so. My parents
would never have thought to put me in swim lessons. That was what my older brothers were there for, to show me how to swim. ;-)<<<

I'm thinking 9 is a good age for swimming lessons :-) Rain already knew how to dog paddle around, and float, and have tea parties on the bottom of the pool, and stuff like that, just from being in the water all the time... but she wanted to learn to swim actual strokes, and I wasn't doing very well at showing her (maybe because I'm not very good at it). So she's been having private lessons with an 18 yr old former hser and current college sophomore, and it's been wonderful. They talk about what she wants to learn, he knows swimming inside and out and can break every skill down into the tiniest parts, if need be. He knows all sorts of little tricks to help her refine the techniques. She enjoys it a lot, and he's talked about how much faster she learns than the 5 yr olds he teaches - probably mostly because she's not 5.

I also think she would have been fine paddling around the rest of her life, she didn't *need* to know the freestyle and the backstroke and the breastroke. But she wanted to, and I didn't know them all.

I'm thinking of signing her up for singing lessons for the same reason- she wants to know stuff that I don't know (she told me I sing alto, which was news to me) and learning something like that from an actual person sounds much easier than trying to do it from a book.

Dar

kayb85

I asked my 9 year old daughter if she wanted to go to school this
year. She has been kind of bummed out lately that she doesn't have
enough friends. She thought about it and came to the conclusion that
it wouldn't be worth it because too much of her time would be wasted
doing what the teachers wanted her to do.

So instead, I've been making friends a focus. We've been inviting
different girls over a lot and I think we're going to start a girl
scout troop. My plan is to make it THEIR troop. They can get
together and do what they want in their troop, down to picking what
crafts, activities, and trips they want to do. My only agenda will
be to give them freedom to have fun together and be themselves.
Sheila

> I haven't asked for a few years, but the first several years I'd
always ask
> each child if he or she wanted to go to school that year or stay
home. Holly
> was thinking about school one year, but when she visited the
playground and
> saw that kindergarten kids never mixed with first and second
graders (which
> her friends/neighbors were) she decided against it.
>
> Sandra

Jeff & Kate Kerr

<< Serena taught
herself to swim, and has no problem at all in going underwater, swimming

to the bottom, etc. while her friend does not do these things, and when
I
asked her mom why, she said, "they're not expected to do that in her
swimming lessons class". >>

eeeyew.
I shuddered reading that!

This interesting because in our house it's just the opposite. Robin's
friends can all swim with their heads under the water, but he can't.
Their parents say it's due to swimming lessons. I say (and so does
Robin) that he will get it when he's ready to swim. He says that right
now he just likes to be in the water. Ditto for my daughter.
Kate

Jeff & Kate Kerr

I'm thinking of signing her up for singing lessons for the same reason-
she wants to know stuff that
I don't know (she told me I sing alto, which was news to me) and
learning something like that from
an actual person sounds much easier than trying to do it from a book.

Robin is in karate lessons, and Storey is in gymnastic lessons - I don't
know how to do these, but we have a place here in town (run by a
homeschooling family no less) that does. So we use them. When these
stop being enjoyable for my kids, they will move on. But Robin is
determined to be a jedi - so we may be in for the long haul.
Kate

Tia Leschke

>
>Robin is in karate lessons, and Storey is in gymnastic lessons - I don't
>know how to do these, but we have a place here in town (run by a
>homeschooling family no less) that does.

Some of you may not realize it, but often gymnastics and other schools will
give special homeschool classes at a discount because the homeschoolers can
come during the school day, when not much else is going on there. Lars
took several years of gymnasics that way at about half the regular
price. (I think he might still be going if he hadn't grown so much that
none of the coaches could safely spot him anymore.)
Tia


No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Bill and Diane

I agree that it's sort of a nonsense term, but there is some market for
people with an unschooling bent to be able to talk about matters
involving younger children. My kids are 2 and 4, and while I enjoy this
and other unschooling forums, I've also seen people attacked more than
once for asking questions or expressing concerns relating to younger kids.

:-) Diane (NOT Bill!)

>I saw this term pop up in the diapers/babies discussion, and it struck me
>as a meaningless word. I'm not trying to be offensive, but If you think
>about it, when is a child at a "pre" unschooling stage? It's rather like
>"learning to X" as opposed to "doing X" At what point do you cross
>over?
>
>I have a 3yo daughter, and although she would be considered a
>"preschooler" in the world at large, I consider that she is already an
>unschooler, not a "pre-unschooler".
>
>This may seem like a small nit, but I think it's an important one.
>
>Kevin Tucker
>
>

zenmomma *

>>I agree that it's sort of a nonsense term, but there is some market for
>>people with an unschooling bent to be able to talk about matters
involving younger children.>>

I was just thinking about turning the phrase around. Instead of
PRE-unschooling, the idea is really better suited as UN-preschooling. Like
Ned said, it's anything BUT school. It's anything BUT sending off 3 year
olds to do school type work.

Life is good.
~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/15/02 9:52:50 AM Central Daylight Time,
zenmomma@... writes:


> I was just thinking about turning the phrase around. Instead of
> PRE-unschooling, the idea is really better suited as UN-preschooling.

A MA hsing group I was in had an unpreschool group for kids ages 3-5 roughly.
It seemed to be a preschool group for hsers where they played and did fun
stuff!

~Ellen

«·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.»§«(¨`v´¨).»§«·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.»
` v´

"It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of
instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiousity of inquiry;
for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need
of freedom."
-- Albert Einstein


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]