Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2230 All those kids
[email protected]
( those are questions that libertarians ask )
I like to think about the questions that PEOPLE ask.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
I like to think about the questions that PEOPLE ask.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
Since Tia brought it up, I'll try to be brief and not to grandstand:
About school, someone wrote that that many people seem to think as follows:
It's the idea behind mountains of bad laws that take money from everyone and
give it to special interests. (public school is the biggest special interest
group in the country) It's the excuse that schoolers use when they intrude
into the practices of homeschoolers. It means that the state doesn't trust
us to do it, even though it fails miserably, as we all agree.
The opposing view is that no one has a right to the property of anyone else.
(slavery means that you don't have a right to property,
even to your own children)
Either our property and our earnings belong to us or they don't.
What gives anyone else a right to it?
Are our children OURS, or do they belong to others, to use for the purposes
of others? Is it our decision or someone else's?
Is it a public "good" for the state to teach MY children things that I don't
want them to be taught, at my expense?
( those are questions that libertarians ask )
Tia Leschke wrote:
( Tia, do you include unschooling in "some sort of eduction"? This list
seems to say that unschooling is better than what the state offers. Why
shouldn't the state provide UNschooling? )
It's those taxes that say, "your property is not yours. It's ours, and we'll
use it as we decide, not you."
The state can't give (provide) anything to anyone until it has first taken
from everyone else. The libertarian "philosophy" is one of personal
responsibility and individual choice in all matters, including how to raise
and educate our children.
Therefore, briefly, no government, like no person, has a right to take by
force what belongs to another -- no matter what. If there is a true need,
most people will contribute and help, but no one should be forced to give to
another at the point of a gun, as the government does.
The state is not a good educator. It doesn't belong in the education
business. It spends about $1B per day of our money for its bad schools,
preventing the earners of that money from using it for good education for
their own children.
It is a myth that's useful to the schoolers that "all those kids" would not
be provided for at all if the government didn't give them "some sort of an
education." One problem is that they are being denied education NOW, and
would get better education if they were given a choice. That's what vouchers
are proving. Those who believe that parents would not educate their kids or
find decent schools for them, are believing a state schoolers' (usually
racist) lie. Sure, there are exceptions, and the schools use them to throw
their net over all of us.
Ned Vare
Unschooling is being responsible for ourselves and our families.
About school, someone wrote that that many people seem to think as follows:
>>the gov't needs to make sure that it's "done" to all children.<<That, in a nutshell, is the view that's called, "The Public Good."
It's the idea behind mountains of bad laws that take money from everyone and
give it to special interests. (public school is the biggest special interest
group in the country) It's the excuse that schoolers use when they intrude
into the practices of homeschoolers. It means that the state doesn't trust
us to do it, even though it fails miserably, as we all agree.
The opposing view is that no one has a right to the property of anyone else.
(slavery means that you don't have a right to property,
even to your own children)
Either our property and our earnings belong to us or they don't.
What gives anyone else a right to it?
Are our children OURS, or do they belong to others, to use for the purposes
of others? Is it our decision or someone else's?
Is it a public "good" for the state to teach MY children things that I don't
want them to be taught, at my expense?
( those are questions that libertarians ask )
Tia Leschke wrote:
> What I don't agree with is that the state shouldNed again:
> not be providing some sort of education, through taxes, to all those kids
> who aren't ever going to be homeschooled for whatever reason. That's part
> of the libertarian philosophy,
( Tia, do you include unschooling in "some sort of eduction"? This list
seems to say that unschooling is better than what the state offers. Why
shouldn't the state provide UNschooling? )
It's those taxes that say, "your property is not yours. It's ours, and we'll
use it as we decide, not you."
The state can't give (provide) anything to anyone until it has first taken
from everyone else. The libertarian "philosophy" is one of personal
responsibility and individual choice in all matters, including how to raise
and educate our children.
Therefore, briefly, no government, like no person, has a right to take by
force what belongs to another -- no matter what. If there is a true need,
most people will contribute and help, but no one should be forced to give to
another at the point of a gun, as the government does.
The state is not a good educator. It doesn't belong in the education
business. It spends about $1B per day of our money for its bad schools,
preventing the earners of that money from using it for good education for
their own children.
It is a myth that's useful to the schoolers that "all those kids" would not
be provided for at all if the government didn't give them "some sort of an
education." One problem is that they are being denied education NOW, and
would get better education if they were given a choice. That's what vouchers
are proving. Those who believe that parents would not educate their kids or
find decent schools for them, are believing a state schoolers' (usually
racist) lie. Sure, there are exceptions, and the schools use them to throw
their net over all of us.
Ned Vare
Unschooling is being responsible for ourselves and our families.
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Is it not in my best interest to live in a society in which most
of the folks have some degree of literacy and are prepared to
participate in the economy? ...and is there any efficient way to
achieve the goal without some communal/institutional educational
establishment?
of the folks have some degree of literacy and are prepared to
participate in the economy? ...and is there any efficient way to
achieve the goal without some communal/institutional educational
establishment?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luz Shosie and Ned Vare" <nedvare@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2230 All those kids
| Since Tia brought it up, I'll try to be brief and not to
grandstand:
|
| About school, someone wrote that that many people seem to
think as follows:
|
| >>the gov't needs to make sure that it's "done" to all
children.<<
|
| That, in a nutshell, is the view that's called, "The Public
Good."
| It's the idea behind mountains of bad laws that take money from
everyone and
| give it to special interests. (public school is the biggest
special interest
| group in the country) It's the excuse that schoolers use when
they intrude
| into the practices of homeschoolers. It means that the state
doesn't trust
| us to do it, even though it fails miserably, as we all agree.
|
kayb85
> Either our property and our earnings belong to us or they don't.I had an experience today that you would probably find interesting.
> What gives anyone else a right to it?
I took my kids to a public pool. It didn't open until 12, and we got
there at 11:45. I saw a bunch of people inside the lobby area, so I
figured they were waiting inside for the pool to open. I walked in
with my kids and was told they weren't open until 12. I said that
yes, I know they weren't open until 12, but couldn't we wait inside?
He said no, you have to wait outside. I asked about all the other
people waiting inside (as I was turning to leave). He said "They're
county kids". I said, "So, does that make them special?" And he
said, "Yes. They pay 9,000 to swim in this pool". I just left and
waited outside because my kids really wanted to swim there and I
didn't want to get us kicked out! lol But I really should have
said, "My taxes pay for them to get preferential treatment over my
own children." Ugh.
Sheila
kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Nora or Devereaux Cannon"
<dcannon@n...> wrote:
have some degree of literacy and participate in the economy in some
way. We live in a literate society, full of all kinds of
interesting, stimulating things. Some things will keep people from
fully enjoying the world around them--greed, violence, lack of love.
Those things that keep people from enjoying life are the things that
need to change.
There are some kids who wouldn't have the advantages that other kids
have, but the problem isn't lack of "being educated". It's just a
lack of good parenting. If kids have good, involved parents, they
will learn. That's one of the basic principles of unschooling.
One interesting thing I remember from one of Gatto's books was that
ever since compulsory schooling started, literacy rates dropped. He's
going by records of men entering the army during America's various
wars. Before compulsory schooling, something like 95% of the men
were literate. It steadily dropped with every year of compulsory
education.
So if we want to encourage literacy and an educated citizenry, we
don't want to do what doesn't work (school). We want to find a way
to encourage parents to be good parents.
Sheila
<dcannon@n...> wrote:
> Is it not in my best interest to live in a society in which mostI don't think it would be possible to live in today's society and not
> of the folks have some degree of literacy and are prepared to
> participate in the economy? ...and is there any efficient way to
> achieve the goal without some communal/institutional educational
> establishment?
have some degree of literacy and participate in the economy in some
way. We live in a literate society, full of all kinds of
interesting, stimulating things. Some things will keep people from
fully enjoying the world around them--greed, violence, lack of love.
Those things that keep people from enjoying life are the things that
need to change.
There are some kids who wouldn't have the advantages that other kids
have, but the problem isn't lack of "being educated". It's just a
lack of good parenting. If kids have good, involved parents, they
will learn. That's one of the basic principles of unschooling.
One interesting thing I remember from one of Gatto's books was that
ever since compulsory schooling started, literacy rates dropped. He's
going by records of men entering the army during America's various
wars. Before compulsory schooling, something like 95% of the men
were literate. It steadily dropped with every year of compulsory
education.
So if we want to encourage literacy and an educated citizenry, we
don't want to do what doesn't work (school). We want to find a way
to encourage parents to be good parents.
Sheila
[email protected]
But I really should have
said, "My taxes pay for them to get preferential treatment over my
own children." Ugh.
The "preferential treatment" probably had a lot more to do with lots of kids
and few adult. Could you imagine if they were sent outside and someone
wandered off? What a liability.
Hopefully these children will have some good memories from the summer swim
program to counter their rough lives.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
said, "My taxes pay for them to get preferential treatment over my
own children." Ugh.
The "preferential treatment" probably had a lot more to do with lots of kids
and few adult. Could you imagine if they were sent outside and someone
wandered off? What a liability.
Hopefully these children will have some good memories from the summer swim
program to counter their rough lives.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein