RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] A tyranny against speech
Cmkerin
It's my feeling that the posts I read of Ned's about 'schools' a few days
ago were very ontopic for unschooling but a few people on the list kept
asking him to be quiet. I really didn't get that at all. I understand many
didn't agree and are afraid of what newbies will think but in my experience
by the time someone finds 'unschooling' they have already learned a little
of what Ned was speaking of (gatto and similar info.) anyway and it's not a
big surprise to hear someone here speak of these things.
It took me quite a while to learn to believe and trust in unschooling, I'm a
stubborn one. <g> It took far to long for me to get unschooling I tried
what seems like almost everything to 'school' at home. It was posts just as
Ned's that kept me going and not send my child to school. I don't read
Gatto or even Ned's posts much anymore but I know without these people I
wouldn't be here on this list now.
I hope posts like Ned's help others that might be in the same situation I
was once.
Joyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Olly Harari [mailto:ollyharari@...]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] A tyranny against speech
I find Ned's posting to be interesting, thought
provoking and very much related to the essence of
unschooling.
Helen, removing Ned from the list will be very
undemocratic, unfair and anti unschooling. Why anti
unschooling? Because one of the reasons people choose
to unschool is the belief that there is no
prescription for learning, life or ideas and each one
of us as an individual and as a community, create it
as we go along with an open mind and tolerance to
others way of being. Removing Ned from the list is
putting the unschooling ideas into a circle and
punishing those, whom some of the list members think,
are crossing the line. Such an action is assuming that
there are external prescriptions for unschooling. If
we keep an attitude of plentiful we can be a better
force for change.
Olly
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ago were very ontopic for unschooling but a few people on the list kept
asking him to be quiet. I really didn't get that at all. I understand many
didn't agree and are afraid of what newbies will think but in my experience
by the time someone finds 'unschooling' they have already learned a little
of what Ned was speaking of (gatto and similar info.) anyway and it's not a
big surprise to hear someone here speak of these things.
It took me quite a while to learn to believe and trust in unschooling, I'm a
stubborn one. <g> It took far to long for me to get unschooling I tried
what seems like almost everything to 'school' at home. It was posts just as
Ned's that kept me going and not send my child to school. I don't read
Gatto or even Ned's posts much anymore but I know without these people I
wouldn't be here on this list now.
I hope posts like Ned's help others that might be in the same situation I
was once.
Joyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Olly Harari [mailto:ollyharari@...]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] A tyranny against speech
I find Ned's posting to be interesting, thought
provoking and very much related to the essence of
unschooling.
Helen, removing Ned from the list will be very
undemocratic, unfair and anti unschooling. Why anti
unschooling? Because one of the reasons people choose
to unschool is the belief that there is no
prescription for learning, life or ideas and each one
of us as an individual and as a community, create it
as we go along with an open mind and tolerance to
others way of being. Removing Ned from the list is
putting the unschooling ideas into a circle and
punishing those, whom some of the list members think,
are crossing the line. Such an action is assuming that
there are external prescriptions for unschooling. If
we keep an attitude of plentiful we can be a better
force for change.
Olly
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@... ) or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[email protected]
It is my personal opinion that Ned is holding this list hostage for whatever
his own purpose is.
This is getting to be an utter waste of my time even if it is simply signing
on to delete all the insulting posts he writes.
Maybe it is unfortunate, but since being off line for those two months of
moving, I did not get to read any of his posts that actually relate to
unschooling so I can't wait hopefully for him to get back to them.
It is not his political views that I object to, as a matter of fact, I agree
with most of them. It is not the vehemence with which he expresses them.
It is the insults. The assumption that if we don't want to hear what he
says, we are non-thinking tools of the machine and slaves to our oppressors.
The offensive attacks on peoples choices because they are different than
his.
I have been thinking alot about this. Thank God I've been UNschooling for
these years. If I came to this list as a newbie, I would think that the
important part of unschooling was political volunteerism. It's not. It's OUR
children.It is my daughter Emily, 8 who loves the freedom of figuring words
out in her own time and telling me what they are. My son Max, who will never
HAVE to see the inside of a classroom unless it is his own choice. My son
Zack, 14, who is as we speak, is sitting in 3rd period on his very first day
of Highschool, and wants to be there, likes to be there, and is still
extremely capable of making decisions all by himself about his own life.
And I am not going to just keep quiet and ignore. You want us to stand up to
those who are out to get us Ned? I will, I'll stand up to you. You
continually respond to posts as if you are not deeply reading them. You
don't answer direct questions posted to you, you twist words into insults
and your sarcasm levels are through the roof. You just don't care who you
insult.
BTW, this is a place for new people to come and ask questions. How in hell
are they supposed to understand WHY hooked on Phonics is bad if their
questions about it aren't even answered and they were directed to a list
for school at homers.? What an incredibly important discussion that is,
particularly in light of the purpose of this list.
How we Unschool.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
his own purpose is.
This is getting to be an utter waste of my time even if it is simply signing
on to delete all the insulting posts he writes.
Maybe it is unfortunate, but since being off line for those two months of
moving, I did not get to read any of his posts that actually relate to
unschooling so I can't wait hopefully for him to get back to them.
It is not his political views that I object to, as a matter of fact, I agree
with most of them. It is not the vehemence with which he expresses them.
It is the insults. The assumption that if we don't want to hear what he
says, we are non-thinking tools of the machine and slaves to our oppressors.
The offensive attacks on peoples choices because they are different than
his.
I have been thinking alot about this. Thank God I've been UNschooling for
these years. If I came to this list as a newbie, I would think that the
important part of unschooling was political volunteerism. It's not. It's OUR
children.It is my daughter Emily, 8 who loves the freedom of figuring words
out in her own time and telling me what they are. My son Max, who will never
HAVE to see the inside of a classroom unless it is his own choice. My son
Zack, 14, who is as we speak, is sitting in 3rd period on his very first day
of Highschool, and wants to be there, likes to be there, and is still
extremely capable of making decisions all by himself about his own life.
And I am not going to just keep quiet and ignore. You want us to stand up to
those who are out to get us Ned? I will, I'll stand up to you. You
continually respond to posts as if you are not deeply reading them. You
don't answer direct questions posted to you, you twist words into insults
and your sarcasm levels are through the roof. You just don't care who you
insult.
BTW, this is a place for new people to come and ask questions. How in hell
are they supposed to understand WHY hooked on Phonics is bad if their
questions about it aren't even answered and they were directed to a list
for school at homers.? What an incredibly important discussion that is,
particularly in light of the purpose of this list.
How we Unschool.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
[email protected]
Ellissa, find your delete key, delete all of Ned's posts and dont' read them. also notice the subject line on the post and you can delete all the posts with that subject line as well. i think this will solve most of these problems with unwanted posts.
Linda LL
Linda LL
----- Original Message -----
From: ElissaJC@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:08 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] A speech against Tyranny
It is my personal opinion that Ned is holding this list hostage for whatever
his own purpose is.
This is getting to be an utter waste of my time even if it is simply signing
on to delete all the insulting posts he writes.
Maybe it is unfortunate, but since being off line for those two months of
moving, I did not get to read any of his posts that actually relate to
unschooling so I can't wait hopefully for him to get back to them.
It is not his political views that I object to, as a matter of fact, I agree
with most of them. It is not the vehemence with which he expresses them.
It is the insults. The assumption that if we don't want to hear what he
says, we are non-thinking tools of the machine and slaves to our oppressors.
The offensive attacks on peoples choices because they are different than
his.
I have been thinking alot about this. Thank God I've been UNschooling for
these years. If I came to this list as a newbie, I would think that the
important part of unschooling was political volunteerism. It's not. It's OUR
children.It is my daughter Emily, 8 who loves the freedom of figuring words
out in her own time and telling me what they are. My son Max, who will never
HAVE to see the inside of a classroom unless it is his own choice. My son
Zack, 14, who is as we speak, is sitting in 3rd period on his very first day
of Highschool, and wants to be there, likes to be there, and is still
extremely capable of making decisions all by himself about his own life.
And I am not going to just keep quiet and ignore. You want us to stand up to
those who are out to get us Ned? I will, I'll stand up to you. You
continually respond to posts as if you are not deeply reading them. You
don't answer direct questions posted to you, you twist words into insults
and your sarcasm levels are through the roof. You just don't care who you
insult.
BTW, this is a place for new people to come and ask questions. How in hell
are they supposed to understand WHY hooked on Phonics is bad if their
questions about it aren't even answered and they were directed to a list
for school at homers.? What an incredibly important discussion that is,
particularly in light of the purpose of this list.
How we Unschool.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@... ) or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>And I am not going to just keep quiet and ignore. You want us to stand upWOW! Elissa, your response is much better than my mine was. Thanks for
>>to those who are out to get us Ned? I will, I'll stand up to you.>>
taking that stand.
BTW has Emily found some books that she enjoys reading? (It was you that was
looking for suggestions right?)
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/02 10:33:38 AM, zenmomma@... writes:
<<
BTW has Emily found some books that she enjoys reading? (It was you that was
looking for suggestions right?) >>
http://www.wieser-ed.com/
There's a company supplying "high interest" books (low reading levels)!
There are others. If you use google, use "remedial reading high interest"
and those are the buzz words of the moment.
I looked around a little, but it was too creepy for me being that deep into
supplies created for teachers, so I need to go sew and hang out with Holly
for a while to recover!
Sandra
<<
BTW has Emily found some books that she enjoys reading? (It was you that was
looking for suggestions right?) >>
http://www.wieser-ed.com/
There's a company supplying "high interest" books (low reading levels)!
There are others. If you use google, use "remedial reading high interest"
and those are the buzz words of the moment.
I looked around a little, but it was too creepy for me being that deep into
supplies created for teachers, so I need to go sew and hang out with Holly
for a while to recover!
Sandra
Helen Hegener
At 11:08 AM -0400 8/12/02, <ElissaJC@...> wrote:
than usual right now, as I'm working from Alaska and going through
our 800# access to reply to Ned's posts.
(surprised, Ned?), but this particular dynamic bothers me - what the
new people must be thinking about all of this. I can take Ned's rants
for what they're worth, and I can advise people to just ignore him
(he advised the same but I doubt many will), and I can refute his
obnoxious claims all day long, but to what end? At what point do I,
as listowner, just say enough, stop this, and unsubscribe him from
the list? It's been requested by two people now - two people whose
opinions I greatly respect. So far I've overridden their request in
favor of letting Ned rant on, but is that right? Mostly puzzling to
myself here, but any insights would be welcomed.
jump for the unsub button, but I really hesitate to do that. I wish I
knew why.
helping me muddle through this and sort out my own ideas about Ned's
writing.
Helen
>It is my personal opinion that Ned is holding this list hostage for whateverI share that opinion.
>his own purpose is.
>This is getting to be an utter waste of my time even if it is simply signingIt's a waste of my time, too, and my time online is more expensive
>on to delete all the insulting posts he writes.
than usual right now, as I'm working from Alaska and going through
our 800# access to reply to Ned's posts.
>I have been thinking alot about this. Thank God I've been UNschooling forI've been trying to keep an open mind on this whole matter
>these years. If I came to this list as a newbie, I would think that the
>important part of unschooling was political volunteerism.
(surprised, Ned?), but this particular dynamic bothers me - what the
new people must be thinking about all of this. I can take Ned's rants
for what they're worth, and I can advise people to just ignore him
(he advised the same but I doubt many will), and I can refute his
obnoxious claims all day long, but to what end? At what point do I,
as listowner, just say enough, stop this, and unsubscribe him from
the list? It's been requested by two people now - two people whose
opinions I greatly respect. So far I've overridden their request in
favor of letting Ned rant on, but is that right? Mostly puzzling to
myself here, but any insights would be welcomed.
>And I am not going to just keep quiet and ignore. You want us to stand up toWell stated, Elissa. Reading what you wrote here makes me want to
>those who are out to get us Ned? I will, I'll stand up to you. You
>continually respond to posts as if you are not deeply reading them. You
>don't answer direct questions posted to you, you twist words into insults
>and your sarcasm levels are through the roof. You just don't care who you
>insult.
jump for the unsub button, but I really hesitate to do that. I wish I
knew why.
>BTW, this is a place for new people to come and ask questions. How in hellAgain, well stated. Keep writing, Elissa. Your thoughtful words are
>are they supposed to understand WHY hooked on Phonics is bad if their
>questions about it aren't even answered and they were directed to a list
>for school at homers.? What an incredibly important discussion that is,
>particularly in light of the purpose of this list.
>How we Unschool.
helping me muddle through this and sort out my own ideas about Ned's
writing.
Helen
zenmomma *
>>Well stated, Elissa. Reading what you wrote here makes me want tojump for the unsub button, but I really hesitate to do that. I wish I
knew why.>>
Maybe for the same reason I was not one of the people who asked you to unsub
him. I like to look for the good in people and what they are saying. Like I
do with my kids, I like to redirect when I think they're getting off-track.
I don't like to shun people, but I do request (and yes sometimes beg) that
they play nice.
Or...maybe it's something completely different. LOL!
>>Again, well stated. Keep writing, Elissa. Your thoughtful words arehelping me muddle through this and sort out my own ideas about Ned's
writing.>>
Yes Elissa, I agree. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
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Olly Harari
I find Ned's posting to be interesting, thought
provoking and very much related to the essence of
unschooling.
Helen, removing Ned from the list will be very
undemocratic, unfair and anti unschooling. Why anti
unschooling? Because one of the reasons people choose
to unschool is the belief that there is no
prescription for learning, life or ideas and each one
of us as an individual and as a community, create it
as we go along with an open mind and tolerance to
others way of being. Removing Ned from the list is
putting the unschooling ideas into a circle and
punishing those, whom some of the list members think,
are crossing the line. Such an action is assuming that
there are external prescriptions for unschooling. If
we keep an attitude of plentiful we can be a better
force for change.
Olly
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
provoking and very much related to the essence of
unschooling.
Helen, removing Ned from the list will be very
undemocratic, unfair and anti unschooling. Why anti
unschooling? Because one of the reasons people choose
to unschool is the belief that there is no
prescription for learning, life or ideas and each one
of us as an individual and as a community, create it
as we go along with an open mind and tolerance to
others way of being. Removing Ned from the list is
putting the unschooling ideas into a circle and
punishing those, whom some of the list members think,
are crossing the line. Such an action is assuming that
there are external prescriptions for unschooling. If
we keep an attitude of plentiful we can be a better
force for change.
Olly
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/02 4:30:48 PM, ollyharari@... writes:
<< removing Ned from the list will be very
undemocratic, unfair and anti unschooling. Why anti
unschooling? >>
Unfair to you? To Ned?
If this were the only forum in the world, you would have been disadvantaged,
but yahoo is like infinity it seems.
Undemocratic?
How so? It's a list owned by a magazine. You and I aren't owners of the
magazine. We're enjoying a free service provided by a magazine. The
magazine has a reputation and is a business. The decisions aren't ours to
make.
It would be anti-unschooling for anyone to claim, expect or recommend that
anyone's information all come from one source, whether it be one curriculum,
one teacher, or one e-mail list.
It has been suggested that those who want to hear more about Ned's politics
should start a yahoogroups discussion and go there and do that. Maybe lots
of people from this list would follow you over there. People could be on
both lists.
No one list can or should be everything for everybody.
There are more unschoolers outside this list than in it, because there are a
WHOLE lot of unschoolers in the world.
Sandra
<< removing Ned from the list will be very
undemocratic, unfair and anti unschooling. Why anti
unschooling? >>
Unfair to you? To Ned?
If this were the only forum in the world, you would have been disadvantaged,
but yahoo is like infinity it seems.
Undemocratic?
How so? It's a list owned by a magazine. You and I aren't owners of the
magazine. We're enjoying a free service provided by a magazine. The
magazine has a reputation and is a business. The decisions aren't ours to
make.
It would be anti-unschooling for anyone to claim, expect or recommend that
anyone's information all come from one source, whether it be one curriculum,
one teacher, or one e-mail list.
It has been suggested that those who want to hear more about Ned's politics
should start a yahoogroups discussion and go there and do that. Maybe lots
of people from this list would follow you over there. People could be on
both lists.
No one list can or should be everything for everybody.
There are more unschoolers outside this list than in it, because there are a
WHOLE lot of unschoolers in the world.
Sandra
kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Cmkerin" <cmkerin@a...> wrote:
unschooler leanings" for quite awhile before I finally got it. Then
for awhile I would unschool and then slip back into other things.
Unschooling is really an awesome thing, but it takes a lot even for
very open minded people to accept completely.
It took far to long for me to get unschooling I tried
too.
Sheila
> It's my feeling that the posts I read of Ned's about 'schools' afew days
> ago were very ontopic for unschooling but a few people on the listkept
> asking him to be quiet.I agree.
> It took me quite a while to learn to believe and trust inunschooling, I'm a
> stubborn one. <g>Me too. :) I was an "almost unschooler" or a "homeschooler with
unschooler leanings" for quite awhile before I finally got it. Then
for awhile I would unschool and then slip back into other things.
Unschooling is really an awesome thing, but it takes a lot even for
very open minded people to accept completely.
It took far to long for me to get unschooling I tried
> what seems like almost everything to 'school' at home. It wasposts just as
> Ned's that kept me going and not send my child to school. I don'tread
> Gatto or even Ned's posts much anymore but I know without thesepeople I
> wouldn't be here on this list now.Gatto-type stuff was a first step for me in becoming an unschooler
too.
Sheila