Re: 2227 - to say or not to say...
Luz Shosie and Ned Vare
on 8/10/02 10:18 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
Thank you so much. For those who don't know, Luz and I have been given
permission to post several articles on a website: the name/page is as
fillows:
www.borntoexplore.org/unschool
For anecdotes about our unschooling/raising our kid, I thought I'd save
space here by not including that. As some of you have noticed, I am a
candidate for the support group called "On-anon-anon" even without bragging
about our son and my children by my four previous wives. OOOOOooooooo
Some people like some of the things I write, and some don't. It's hard to
tell what to write. Unschooling, for Luz and me, was ANYTHING BUT SCHOOLING
unless the kid begs for it, so I reckoned that this group is sophisticated
and could handle some topics that relate to our homeschooling rights. But
no, that is not to some people's liking because that would mean talking
about the politics or economics behind those rights.
Should I repeat myself by posting the same articles here? No.
There's not much to unschooling, really. Until a kid is about seven, it's
parenting, anyway, it's not even un-anything. Parenting is a huge
responsibility. Of course, we are constantly teaching our kids even when
we're trying not to. All those ideas get kicked around, all the prejudices,
opinions, all that information from living to adulthood. We even pass along
our conviction that we got from going to school...that we're not good
learners.
If we get our kid to, say age 7, without turning him/her into a school-type
idiot (intellectual dependent) day-care zombie, we can say we've been
unschooling all along, and we see that our kid has already learned a great
deal, and we have no idea how s/he did it.
The trick at that time is to try to continue the same exact approach, and
the only thing that changes might be the actual activities you do. It's
always a good practice for parents to be deeply interested in things of
their own instead of being interested in making sure that the kids are
"interested in" stuff. Let the kids find their own stuff so they'll come and
tell you about them.
Rich people have always been interested in seeing that their children
learned several skills of survival. That's what animals teach their kids,
too, so it just might make some sense in an evolutionary sense. The rich are
out sailing boats, or riding horses -- those take critical skills and an
urgency and self-dependency that people need when their taxes are due for an
audit, or when a young person applies for a job. Life is challenges. Kids
need to be prepared. It's what school can't do, because sitting in those
rows and being told about life by someone who has never lived (really) is an
artificial, second-hand, worthless waste of time.
Shooting is a big deal now. There's hardly a stronger sense of urgency than
pulling a trigger and feeling the jolt of a bullet being kicked out by the
explosion and seeing what that bullet does to a wooden crate. If it is a
shotgun, all the more sensational and a giddy sense of accomplishment.
Don't like guns, archery teaches all sorts of important things. Kids need to
see something when they're done, so crafts are great. Anything.
When I taught school (just 3 yrs, mercifully) I believed that the most
important thing was art. All 3 years, I had my classes (2nd grade, 3rd, 5+6
together) write books and illustrate it themselves, too. It took about two
months, maybe three. First, tell a story. Next write an outline and that
would be a list of chapter titles, so that each part of the outline would be
a short story inside the big one. Then, write a chapter every week. If you
can tell it, but can't write fast, I'll write it down as you tell it, and
then you copy it.
So each week, every kid wrote a chapter, printed it out in various ways, and
made an illustration with paint or collage or pastels -- no crayons, no
markers -- too slap-dash most of the time...not sensual. In Florida, the
5-6 grade books were placed on the big tables in the children's section of
the public library for all the town's children to read them. They were there
for several weeks and were well taken care of by the children. They loved
them.
For homeschooling, it just might be the parent who needs to write the book
and let the kid see that you like writing your book, and illustrating it and
printing it and binding it with a beautiful cover, and putting it in a
special place. Kids like to be proud of what their parents do, even if they
don't show it. They brag to their friends.
Speaking of friends, they only need one. If they get more, and they want
them, fine, but they do need one. That is urgent business for a parent, in
case your child is lonely. Take your kid to places where there are kids --
craft centers, kid museums, playgrounds...until s/he finds a good friend,
someone to relate to in ways that are impossible for adults.
If you're doing a decent job of parenting, the kid comes into contact with a
variety of things, and is curious about some of them. If s/he trusts you
with his/her thoughts and doesn't expect a "teaching moment" from you every
time s/he asks you something, than maybe you'll discover what makes his/her
boat float, and you can actually do something to help out.
Unschooling is not about getting 'teaching" ideas from other people. That's
school. Parents who are at a loss about how to unschool their kid and
believe that if they aren't unschooling them, the kid is "wasting time."
Such a parent needs to discover his/her own interests and follow those, and
not try to get the kids to "do stuff that's educational." Unschooling has
nothing at all to do with schooling. It has to do with living. The two are
not the same. Schooling has nothing to do with learning, either. If there's
any connection, it's coincidental.
What schools teach has never had anything to do with what kids are
interested in. There's another one of those crazy absolutes for which some
of you will give exceptions. Fine.
Kids mostly need to go out an play -- all the time. Let them invent their
own games, dig a hole, climb a tree -- all indispensible activities. The
more the better.
Some of the Powerglide/HOP/"teacher store" discussion folks might do better,
and might be with more compatible/friendly people, if they went to a more
wussy list where such things are the usual fare -- the school-at-home crowd
instead of squirming in your chairs when somebody says "school budget" or
"libertarian" or "Unalienable Rights."
And excuse me, but where is it carved that we need a thorough discussion,
or five, about whether or not there's a hell. Or a heaven. If ever there
were topics that don't teach anything, I would say those are prime examples.
Maybe those are candidates for "moving to another list," as has been told to
me, making room for "unschooling" posts, whatever those are.
Selah.
Ned Vare
[email protected] wrote:
>Ned, not wanting to intrude, says:
> Message: 19
> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:54:23 -0700
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: A Plea
>
>
>>
>> PS
>> Ned, many of us have said we enjoyed your posts on your family's unschooling
>> journey. Maybe we could get back to those?
>
> Yes please. I've really found your unschooling posts useful.
> Tia
>
Thank you so much. For those who don't know, Luz and I have been given
permission to post several articles on a website: the name/page is as
fillows:
www.borntoexplore.org/unschool
For anecdotes about our unschooling/raising our kid, I thought I'd save
space here by not including that. As some of you have noticed, I am a
candidate for the support group called "On-anon-anon" even without bragging
about our son and my children by my four previous wives. OOOOOooooooo
Some people like some of the things I write, and some don't. It's hard to
tell what to write. Unschooling, for Luz and me, was ANYTHING BUT SCHOOLING
unless the kid begs for it, so I reckoned that this group is sophisticated
and could handle some topics that relate to our homeschooling rights. But
no, that is not to some people's liking because that would mean talking
about the politics or economics behind those rights.
Should I repeat myself by posting the same articles here? No.
There's not much to unschooling, really. Until a kid is about seven, it's
parenting, anyway, it's not even un-anything. Parenting is a huge
responsibility. Of course, we are constantly teaching our kids even when
we're trying not to. All those ideas get kicked around, all the prejudices,
opinions, all that information from living to adulthood. We even pass along
our conviction that we got from going to school...that we're not good
learners.
If we get our kid to, say age 7, without turning him/her into a school-type
idiot (intellectual dependent) day-care zombie, we can say we've been
unschooling all along, and we see that our kid has already learned a great
deal, and we have no idea how s/he did it.
The trick at that time is to try to continue the same exact approach, and
the only thing that changes might be the actual activities you do. It's
always a good practice for parents to be deeply interested in things of
their own instead of being interested in making sure that the kids are
"interested in" stuff. Let the kids find their own stuff so they'll come and
tell you about them.
Rich people have always been interested in seeing that their children
learned several skills of survival. That's what animals teach their kids,
too, so it just might make some sense in an evolutionary sense. The rich are
out sailing boats, or riding horses -- those take critical skills and an
urgency and self-dependency that people need when their taxes are due for an
audit, or when a young person applies for a job. Life is challenges. Kids
need to be prepared. It's what school can't do, because sitting in those
rows and being told about life by someone who has never lived (really) is an
artificial, second-hand, worthless waste of time.
Shooting is a big deal now. There's hardly a stronger sense of urgency than
pulling a trigger and feeling the jolt of a bullet being kicked out by the
explosion and seeing what that bullet does to a wooden crate. If it is a
shotgun, all the more sensational and a giddy sense of accomplishment.
Don't like guns, archery teaches all sorts of important things. Kids need to
see something when they're done, so crafts are great. Anything.
When I taught school (just 3 yrs, mercifully) I believed that the most
important thing was art. All 3 years, I had my classes (2nd grade, 3rd, 5+6
together) write books and illustrate it themselves, too. It took about two
months, maybe three. First, tell a story. Next write an outline and that
would be a list of chapter titles, so that each part of the outline would be
a short story inside the big one. Then, write a chapter every week. If you
can tell it, but can't write fast, I'll write it down as you tell it, and
then you copy it.
So each week, every kid wrote a chapter, printed it out in various ways, and
made an illustration with paint or collage or pastels -- no crayons, no
markers -- too slap-dash most of the time...not sensual. In Florida, the
5-6 grade books were placed on the big tables in the children's section of
the public library for all the town's children to read them. They were there
for several weeks and were well taken care of by the children. They loved
them.
For homeschooling, it just might be the parent who needs to write the book
and let the kid see that you like writing your book, and illustrating it and
printing it and binding it with a beautiful cover, and putting it in a
special place. Kids like to be proud of what their parents do, even if they
don't show it. They brag to their friends.
Speaking of friends, they only need one. If they get more, and they want
them, fine, but they do need one. That is urgent business for a parent, in
case your child is lonely. Take your kid to places where there are kids --
craft centers, kid museums, playgrounds...until s/he finds a good friend,
someone to relate to in ways that are impossible for adults.
If you're doing a decent job of parenting, the kid comes into contact with a
variety of things, and is curious about some of them. If s/he trusts you
with his/her thoughts and doesn't expect a "teaching moment" from you every
time s/he asks you something, than maybe you'll discover what makes his/her
boat float, and you can actually do something to help out.
Unschooling is not about getting 'teaching" ideas from other people. That's
school. Parents who are at a loss about how to unschool their kid and
believe that if they aren't unschooling them, the kid is "wasting time."
Such a parent needs to discover his/her own interests and follow those, and
not try to get the kids to "do stuff that's educational." Unschooling has
nothing at all to do with schooling. It has to do with living. The two are
not the same. Schooling has nothing to do with learning, either. If there's
any connection, it's coincidental.
What schools teach has never had anything to do with what kids are
interested in. There's another one of those crazy absolutes for which some
of you will give exceptions. Fine.
Kids mostly need to go out an play -- all the time. Let them invent their
own games, dig a hole, climb a tree -- all indispensible activities. The
more the better.
Some of the Powerglide/HOP/"teacher store" discussion folks might do better,
and might be with more compatible/friendly people, if they went to a more
wussy list where such things are the usual fare -- the school-at-home crowd
instead of squirming in your chairs when somebody says "school budget" or
"libertarian" or "Unalienable Rights."
And excuse me, but where is it carved that we need a thorough discussion,
or five, about whether or not there's a hell. Or a heaven. If ever there
were topics that don't teach anything, I would say those are prime examples.
Maybe those are candidates for "moving to another list," as has been told to
me, making room for "unschooling" posts, whatever those are.
Selah.
Ned Vare
kayb85
> Speaking of friends, they only need one. If they get more, and theywant
> them, fine, but they do need one. That is urgent business for aparent, in
> case your child is lonely. Take your kid to places where there arekids --
> craft centers, kid museums, playgrounds...until s/he finds a goodfriend,
> someone to relate to in ways that are impossible for adults.I think it is important too, although it's not always easy.
> Kids mostly need to go out an play -- all the time. Let them inventtheir
> own games, dig a hole, climb a tree -- all indispensibleactivities. The
> more the better.Sometimes adults need that too. <g>
> And excuse me, but where is it carved that we need a thoroughdiscussion,
> or five, about whether or not there's a hell. Or a heaven. If everthere
> were topics that don't teach anything, I would say those are primeexamples.
> Maybe those are candidates for "moving to another list," as hasbeen told to
> me, making room for "unschooling" posts, whatever those are.Well what do you know, I found something to disagree with you about!
lol If people are interested in a discussion on heaven and hell, then
it does teach something. What it teaches depends on where the
conversation leads and what the posters needed to get out of it.
Then again, I didn't have a problem with political discussions
either.
Another interesting aspect of the heaven/hell discussion is what to
do if you are firmly convicted that you have a responsibility to God
to teach your children about God and the Bible. How do you do that
with unschooling?
Sheila
[email protected]
Another interesting aspect of the heaven/hell discussion is what to
do if you are firmly convicted that you have a responsibility to God
to teach your children about God and the Bible. How do you do that
with unschooling?
Probably the same way I "teach" my children about my concerns for our
environment, respect for others differences, etc. By example, through
stories and festivals, explaining WHY i do things, etc.
It doesn't have to be Sunday school curriculum and church doctrine.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
do if you are firmly convicted that you have a responsibility to God
to teach your children about God and the Bible. How do you do that
with unschooling?
Probably the same way I "teach" my children about my concerns for our
environment, respect for others differences, etc. By example, through
stories and festivals, explaining WHY i do things, etc.
It doesn't have to be Sunday school curriculum and church doctrine.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/12/2002 5:00:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
nedvare@... writes:
I for one am one of those wussy folk questioning the merits of Powerglide. My
daughter wants to learn Spanish. She asked for something more in depth than
watching "Standard Deviant" or "MUZZY" videos. Having heard about the
Powerglide program, I wanted to get feedback. Of course exposure to native
speakers would be wonderful, if one has that option. I received great
feedback about Spanish language channels, internet sites, and other avenues
for learning. I also found out that Powerglide can be a wonderful option for
someone motivated to learn the language. This would not be a forced
curriculum. GAG! This is seeking recommendations from veteran unschoolers
about how their children have gone about learning a foreign language when
they were interested.
Don't assume though that those of us asking about such programs are not also
interested in the more heated discussions concerning unschooling. It is all
relevant to my learning about unschooling -- from the inflammatory debates to
the wussy inquiries. They all go together to help me provide an unschooling
environment for my family.
I agree. The parents need to unschool before they can unschool their
children. All the way through graduate school, most of what I learned was on
my own. I can't say that it took long for me to discard the boxed curriculum
after I rescued my children from the horrors of public school (Ned, the
bathroom incident that you described brought back painful memories of what my
son endured). My children said it best, "If we're going to do this, then send
us back to school. At least there we have some other kids to play with." I
knew that they were right. I just had to trust them to learn what they needed
or wanted. They are staunch defenders of homeschool now. "We get to touch
things; no boring homework; are own schedule; whatever we want to do."
If you think those of us who ask questions about Powerglide, etc. are wussy
about unschooling, you've never seen me on my soapbox when someone questions
homeschooling in general and unschooling specifically. Nowadays, you'll find
me on it frequently.
Personally, I'm not going anywhere.
Ginny in VA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nedvare@... writes:
> Some of the Powerglide/HOP/"teacher store" discussion folks might do better,Ned,
> and might be with more compatible/friendly people, if they went to a more
> wussy list where such things are the usual fare --
I for one am one of those wussy folk questioning the merits of Powerglide. My
daughter wants to learn Spanish. She asked for something more in depth than
watching "Standard Deviant" or "MUZZY" videos. Having heard about the
Powerglide program, I wanted to get feedback. Of course exposure to native
speakers would be wonderful, if one has that option. I received great
feedback about Spanish language channels, internet sites, and other avenues
for learning. I also found out that Powerglide can be a wonderful option for
someone motivated to learn the language. This would not be a forced
curriculum. GAG! This is seeking recommendations from veteran unschoolers
about how their children have gone about learning a foreign language when
they were interested.
Don't assume though that those of us asking about such programs are not also
interested in the more heated discussions concerning unschooling. It is all
relevant to my learning about unschooling -- from the inflammatory debates to
the wussy inquiries. They all go together to help me provide an unschooling
environment for my family.
I agree. The parents need to unschool before they can unschool their
children. All the way through graduate school, most of what I learned was on
my own. I can't say that it took long for me to discard the boxed curriculum
after I rescued my children from the horrors of public school (Ned, the
bathroom incident that you described brought back painful memories of what my
son endured). My children said it best, "If we're going to do this, then send
us back to school. At least there we have some other kids to play with." I
knew that they were right. I just had to trust them to learn what they needed
or wanted. They are staunch defenders of homeschool now. "We get to touch
things; no boring homework; are own schedule; whatever we want to do."
If you think those of us who ask questions about Powerglide, etc. are wussy
about unschooling, you've never seen me on my soapbox when someone questions
homeschooling in general and unschooling specifically. Nowadays, you'll find
me on it frequently.
Personally, I'm not going anywhere.
Ginny in VA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
Ned, I think the middle part of this post is what people are saying they
signed onto this list to read.
If you read through the archives, you'll get a better feel for what people
mean by "discussing unschooling." It's often a very busy list *just* with
the unschooling discussion.
on 8/12/02 1:39 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
post because they were adults learning *on their own* *for fun*. The topics
they were learning about were irrelevant. As are the topics kids learn
about. Those posts showed in action *exactly* how kids can and will learn
when given the freedom and a not-discouraging environment to do so.
Reread what you wrote and think about it this way. You walk in on a bunch of
kids playing and try to teach them something. The kids say "We don't want to
learn that. We want to play like we came here to do." Does an unschooling
parent say or think:
1) "No, this is really important and you *need* to know this," or
2) "I thought you were sophisticated enough to handle it, but I guess not,"
or
3) "Oh, okay, you'll learn it if you ever find a need for it"?
Yes, there are some "kids" saying they do want to learn and it doesn't seem
fair that the other kids are preventing that. That's perhaps a reason why
Helen wants this to play out here.
So. Stopping with the insults will help. It fills up a lot of mailbox space
with people responding to them. And angry people write more than calm
people.
My personal objection to your posts isn't the politics per se but to the
misinformation, the opinons phrased as facts and the inflammatory language.
Misinformation left unquestioned on the list makes good information look
questionable and makes the list look bad and makes me as a poster appear
less trustworthy.
The Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2226 - Free People, or not? on Sunday,
August 11, 2002 5:02 PM about your questionable "facts" on the Bryants is a
beginning.
Joyce
signed onto this list to read.
If you read through the archives, you'll get a better feel for what people
mean by "discussing unschooling." It's often a very busy list *just* with
the unschooling discussion.
on 8/12/02 1:39 AM, Luz Shosie and Ned Vare at nedvare@... wrote:
> And excuse me, but where is it carved that we need a thorough discussion,I believe those posts have been more about unschooling than many another
> or five, about whether or not there's a hell. Or a heaven. If ever there
> were topics that don't teach anything, I would say those are prime examples.
> Maybe those are candidates for "moving to another list," as has been told to
> me, making room for "unschooling" posts, whatever those are.
post because they were adults learning *on their own* *for fun*. The topics
they were learning about were irrelevant. As are the topics kids learn
about. Those posts showed in action *exactly* how kids can and will learn
when given the freedom and a not-discouraging environment to do so.
> so I reckoned that this group is sophisticatedThe operant word is *some*.
> and could handle some topics that relate to our homeschooling rights. But
> no, that is not to some people's liking because that would mean talking
> about the politics or economics behind those rights.
Reread what you wrote and think about it this way. You walk in on a bunch of
kids playing and try to teach them something. The kids say "We don't want to
learn that. We want to play like we came here to do." Does an unschooling
parent say or think:
1) "No, this is really important and you *need* to know this," or
2) "I thought you were sophisticated enough to handle it, but I guess not,"
or
3) "Oh, okay, you'll learn it if you ever find a need for it"?
Yes, there are some "kids" saying they do want to learn and it doesn't seem
fair that the other kids are preventing that. That's perhaps a reason why
Helen wants this to play out here.
So. Stopping with the insults will help. It fills up a lot of mailbox space
with people responding to them. And angry people write more than calm
people.
My personal objection to your posts isn't the politics per se but to the
misinformation, the opinons phrased as facts and the inflammatory language.
Misinformation left unquestioned on the list makes good information look
questionable and makes the list look bad and makes me as a poster appear
less trustworthy.
The Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: 2226 - Free People, or not? on Sunday,
August 11, 2002 5:02 PM about your questionable "facts" on the Bryants is a
beginning.
Joyce
Helen Hegener
At 11:54 AM -0400 8/12/02, Fetteroll wrote:
too. I think most listmembers know me as being more interested in
discussing ideas, politics, policies, etc. than discussing resources
or what happened at the park last week. My youngest is 17 - my kids
are grown (unschooled all the way), and while my five granddaughters
are darling and all, the day-to-day concerns of unschooling aren't
where my interests generally lie. So maybe I'm the one doing the list
a disservice here by not just unsubbing Mr. Vare and his rants?
Helen
>Yes, there are some "kids" saying they do want to learn and it doesn't seemInteresting idea, Joyce. I like your analogy about the kids playing,
>fair that the other kids are preventing that. That's perhaps a reason why
>Helen wants this to play out here.
too. I think most listmembers know me as being more interested in
discussing ideas, politics, policies, etc. than discussing resources
or what happened at the park last week. My youngest is 17 - my kids
are grown (unschooled all the way), and while my five granddaughters
are darling and all, the day-to-day concerns of unschooling aren't
where my interests generally lie. So maybe I'm the one doing the list
a disservice here by not just unsubbing Mr. Vare and his rants?
Helen