Luz Shosie and Ned Vare

Someone (can't remember who) wrote:
> If I say "NO paper, you will not get a piece of paper" and they impose
oversight on my family, I cannot act surprised.**

Ned responds:
No, I won't act surprised, but I will have made my point that the demand is
wrong, unnecessary, ridiculous under the circumstances, and is being uphelp
to cover, or save, the asses of ignorant people.

And Betsy asks,
>
> Has anyone seen the Barbara Hershey movie where she plays an activist in
> S. Africa who is jailed for her political activities? I'm totally
> blanking on the title.

I sincerely hope, Betsy, that you are trying to point out that it takes
courageous people, such as the character Hershey played (I can't remember
that title either), to overturn bad laws. A good example was Mandella, who
spent 27 years in a small cell, trying to end Apartheid. Was it worth it?

Ned Vare

kayb85

For those who think it's no big deal to have homeschool laws making
us hand in things to schools, what would you do if you were a
complete, total unschooler who lives in PA? At the end of the year,
you have to hand in a portfolio with samples of the student's work,
along with a letter from a qualified evaluator stating that progress
has been made. If the school district doesn't like it they can
initiate due process and ask for a more proof that education has
occured. So imagine you unschool and don't have workbook pages to
hand in. You could hand in some brochures of places you've been,
maybe photocopy a penpal letter your child writes, and if you're
luckky, you'll find a mathmania or puzzlemania book they've done.

Keep in mind you'll be handing this portfolio in next to total school
at homers who will hand in thick scrapbooks filled with all kinds of
things that will impress school officials. You'll also have to hand
in a log, which the law states is a list of books you've read but
which some people interpret as a log of daily activities similar to a
teacher's lesson plan. Oh yeah, and also the results of standardized
tests in grade 3, 5, and 8.

So do you...

1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
portfolio?
2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
4. Fight for the seperation of school and state

Tia Leschke

>
>
>1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
>portfolio?
> 2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
> 3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
> 4. Fight for the seperation of school and state

5. Work with other homeschoolers to get your state's law changed.
Tia


What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/02 11:46:05 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< >1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
>portfolio?
> 2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
> 3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
> 4. Fight for the seperation of school and state

5. Work with other homeschoolers to get your state's law changed.
Tia >>

6. Move out of Pennsylvania to one of the MANY other places where that isn't
done?


If I were in Pennsylvania I would hand in quotes and testimonials from other
people, and keep a scrapbook diary-style, with commentary about open
classroom/school without walls, and quotes from theorists.

I would summarize the progress in short-paragraph prose, if I feared legal
action.

If they gave me trouble I would register with Clonlara.

But in my real life I live in New Mexico and I don't register, and I didn't
take the kids for testing before the law was changed.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 8/11/02 12:52 AM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:

> So do you...
>
> 1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
> portfolio?
> 2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
> 3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
> 4. Fight for the seperation of school and state

You can join in with the homeschoolers trying to change the law. It seems to
me they recently finished up with something and then something happened so
there's still work to be done! It isn't too late. You can contact:

Karen Leven @ karenleven@...
Norma Young @ NormomY@...

They've been very active for the past couple of years working on the new
law. They'll be able to tell you what you can do to help or where to go to
find out.

Now *they* and all the others working anonymously and uncelebrated are
heroes in my mind! :-)

Joyce

Bill and Diane

kayb85 wrote:

>For those who think it's no big deal to have homeschool laws making
>us hand in things to schools, what would you do if you were a
>complete, total unschooler who lives in PA? At the end of the year,
>you have to hand in a portfolio with samples of the student's work,
>along with a letter from a qualified evaluator stating that progress
>has been made. If the school district doesn't like it they can
>initiate due process and ask for a more proof that education has
>occured. So imagine you unschool and don't have workbook pages to
>hand in. You could hand in some brochures of places you've been,
>maybe photocopy a penpal letter your child writes, and if you're
>luckky, you'll find a mathmania or puzzlemania book they've done.
>
>Keep in mind you'll be handing this portfolio in next to total school
>at homers who will hand in thick scrapbooks filled with all kinds of
>things that will impress school officials. You'll also have to hand
>in a log, which the law states is a list of books you've read but
>which some people interpret as a log of daily activities similar to a
>teacher's lesson plan. Oh yeah, and also the results of standardized
>tests in grade 3, 5, and 8.
>
>So do you...
>
>1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
>portfolio?
> 2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
> 3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
> 4. Fight for the seperation of school and state
>
>
>
Move to another state. It is good to be a resident of one state and
an employee in another (if you happen to find bordering states that
don't have income tax in one and don't have sales tax in another
figure you have just put 25 to 30 percent of your income back in your
pocket (and so have your customers) who do likewise.

Makes it harder for any one state to push you around with stupid
laws too.


Bill

[email protected]

So do you...

1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
portfolio?
2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
4. Fight for the seperation of school and state


You could do what I did recently, NOT move into that beautiful state due to
their laws, and let them know exactly why.
If I lived there already, I would go underground while looking for a new
life out of state and then tell them exactly WHY i left the state.
This way, they get NOTHING from our family (money, support, etc) and I don't
deal with the beurocracy.
Even if ten families did the above, it would have way more of an impact on
the state than my risking my childrens lives and futures. I would NEVER ask
my children to put themselves at risk for MY conviction.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

[email protected]

I think number 4 can be done concurrently with 1-3.
Like some have said it's not either /or.
Maybe many people are interested in fighting the system but would prefer to
do it when they're kids are older. I know If I were to "join the revolution"
it would negatively impact my children at this time in their life. And my
children are my priority over changing bad laws.

>So do you...

1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
portfolio?
2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
4. Fight for the seperation of school and state



~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

kayb85

Thanks Joyce. :) I already am involved, although not as actively as
some. Karen and Norma are awesome ladies. We have a bill written
and now we need to get the education committee to vote it out of
committee. It would be easier if there weren't homeschoolers in the
state lobbying against the bill because they feel the need
accountability. SIGH!!!

But in the meantime, we still have to decide how to comply.

And even in the state with the best homeschooling law, there is still
a chance that a social worker is going to try to get you on something
related to homeschooling. That's why I believe that a better
homeschool law is a nice first step, but an end to compulsory
education would be even more awesome. That would end the state's
interest in education and get them off our backs altogether.

Sheila

> You can join in with the homeschoolers trying to change the law. It
seems to
> me they recently finished up with something and then something
happened so
> there's still work to be done! It isn't too late. You can contact:
>
> Karen Leven @ karenleven@a...
> Norma Young @ NormomY@a...
>
> They've been very active for the past couple of years working on
the new
> law. They'll be able to tell you what you can do to help or where
to go to
> find out.
>
> Now *they* and all the others working anonymously and uncelebrated
are
> heroes in my mind! :-)
>
> Joyce

kayb85

Wow, Elissa. If you have time, it would be a great benefit to our
fight for a new law if you would email the house education committee
members and tell them that you considered moving to our state but
chose not to due to our homeschool law.

We've considered moving to a state with more freedom, and if dh
wanted to I would. But he's got seniority in his job and we've put a
lot into our house to get it the way we like it.
Sheila

> You could do what I did recently, NOT move into that beautiful
state due to
> their laws, and let them know exactly why.
> If I lived there already, I would go underground while looking for
a new
> life out of state and then tell them exactly WHY i left the state.
> This way, they get NOTHING from our family (money, support, etc)
and I don't
> deal with the beurocracy.
> Even if ten families did the above, it would have way more of an
impact on
> the state than my risking my childrens lives and futures. I would
NEVER ask
> my children to put themselves at risk for MY conviction.
> ~Elissa Cleaveland
> "It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of
instruction
> have
> not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A.
Einstein

[email protected]

I would be glad to Kay! Please send me the address and addressee and I will
work on it this week.
(I may send one to Virginia too since they recently refused to change
existing law that allowes a husband to legally rape his wife.)
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

Tia Leschke

> It would be easier if there weren't homeschoolers in the
>state lobbying against the bill because they feel the need
>accountability. SIGH!!!

If we *have* to have an enemy, that group would be it for me.


>But in the meantime, we still have to decide how to comply.
>
>And even in the state with the best homeschooling law, there is still
>a chance that a social worker is going to try to get you on something
>related to homeschooling. That's why I believe that a better
>homeschool law is a nice first step, but an end to compulsory
>education would be even more awesome. That would end the state's
>interest in education and get them off our backs altogether.

It's pretty unlikely to ever happen. Even if the public schools go down
the tubes, parents are going to be held responsible for their children's
education, one way or another, just like they are responsible for their
children's health and safety. That alone will keep the social workers
involved.

I'd say better to work on educating social workers. There was something
about that in a recent HEM.
Tia


No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

zenmomma *

><< >1. Spend a day or two making your child fill in worksheets to fill a
> >portfolio?
> > 2. Hand in the skimpy portfolio and risk court?
> > 3. Go underground and not hand in anything?
> > 4. Fight for the seperation of school and state
>
>5. Work with other homeschoolers to get your state's law changed.
>Tia >>
>
>6. Move out of Pennsylvania to one of the MANY other places where that
>isn't
>done?

7. Contact AnneO on the Unschooling.com message boards to see what she does
in NY. :o)

I understand that NY asks for quarterly reports and stuff. Anneo claims it's
no big deal and happily unschools away without misleading or compromising
her unschooling principles.

Life is good.
~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

kayb85

Elissa,
Thank you so much! Every email helps, and homeschoolers in PA
really will benefit from the time you take to do this. :)

Following is a list of the reps who are undecided or opposed to
HB2560, which would give a lot of freedom to homeschool.
Sheila
Rep. Jess Stairs, Maj. Chair - Fayette/Westmoreland -
jstairs@... - RD #1, Acme, PA, 15610 - (724) 423-5141

Rep. Fred McIlhattan - Armstrong/ Clarion - fmcilhat@... -
21 North 6th Avenue, Clarion, PA 16214 - (814) 226-9000

Rep. Edward Krebs - Lebanon - ekrebs@... - 445 West Penn
Avenue, Cleona, PA 17042 - (717) 270-1905

Rep. Jerry Nailor - Cumberland - jnailor@... - 2929
Gettysburg Road, Suite 6, Camp Hill, PA, 17011, (717) 761-4665

Rep. Robert Flick - Chester/Delaware - rflick@... - Barr
Building, Suite 302, 266 Lancaster Avenue, Malvern, PA 19355 - (610)
251-1070

Rep. Lynn Herman - Centre/Clearfield - lherman@... - 301
South Allen Street, Suite 102,State College, PA, 16801, (814) 238-5477

Rep. Ronald Miller - York - rmiller@... - 6872 Susquehanna
Trail South P.O. Box 277, Jacobus, PA 17407-0277 - (717) 428-9889

Rep. Jere Schuler - Lancaster - jschuler@... - Municipal
Building, 852 Village Road, P. O. Box 268, Lampeter, PA 17537-0268 -
(717) 464-5285

Rep. Nick Colafella - Min. Chair - Beaver - tmclaugh@... -
3489 Broadhead Road, Monaca, PA 15061 - (724) 728-7655

Rep. Thaddeus Kirkland - Philadelphia - tkirklan@... - 29
East Fifth Street, Chester, PA 19013 - (610) 876-6420

Rep. James Roebuck - Philadelphia - jroebuck@... - 4800
Baltimore Avenue, Philadelphia, PA 19143 - (215) 724-2227

Rep. Lawrence Curry - Montgomery - lcurry@... - One
Jenkintown Station, Suite 211, 115 West Avenue, Jenkintown, PA 19046,
(215) 572-5210

Rep. Phyllis Mundy - Lurzerne - pmundy@... - Park Office
Bldg., Suite 113, 400 Third Avenue, Kingston, PA 18704 - (570) 283-
9622

Rep. Sara Steelman - Cambria/Indiana- ssteelma@... - The
Atrium, 665 Philadelphia Street, Indiana, PA 15701 - (724) 465-0220

Rep. P. Michael Sturla - Lancaster - msturla@... - 8 North
Queen St., Suite 1100, The Griest Building, Lancaster, PA 17603 -
(717) 295-3157




--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., <ElissaJC@c...> wrote:
> I would be glad to Kay! Please send me the address and addressee
and I will
> work on it this week.
> (I may send one to Virginia too since they recently refused to
change
> existing law that allowes a husband to legally rape his wife.)
> ~Elissa Cleaveland
> "It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of
instruction
> have
> not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A.
Einstein

[email protected]

Anneo claims it's
no big deal and happily unschools away without misleading or compromising
her unschooling principles.

As many many of us unschoolers do every year.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

kayb85

It's easy to homeschool/unschool if you all you have to do is follow
the law, even in restrictive states like PA. The problem is that
many school districts ask for documentation that is above and beyond
the law. Superintendents have an incredible amount of power and there
is nothing punitive in the law against them if they abuse their
power. They do it all the time. Homeschoolers give in because they
don't have time and money to go to court and fight every time school
districts abuse their power.

Superintendents don't even need to have probable cause to initiate
due process against homeschoolers. But they usually don't initiate
due process because that would cost them money. So they threaten
families with truancy charges.

Many people succesfuly homeschool/unschool following only what the
law says and no more. However, you have to live in the right
district in order to get away with it. And even if you do live in
the right district, you have to hope the district doesn't hire a new
superintendent.

Sheila


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., <ElissaJC@c...> wrote:
> Anneo claims it's
> no big deal and happily unschools away without misleading or
compromising
> her unschooling principles.
>
> As many many of us unschoolers do every year.
> ~Elissa Cleaveland
> "It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of
instruction
> have
> not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A.
Einstein

Fetteroll

on 8/11/02 2:38 PM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:

> The problem is that
> many school districts ask for documentation that is above and beyond
> the law.

When helping people trying to begin homeschooling I usually warn them that
this can happen and that being informed and quoting the law is their best
defense.

> Superintendents have an incredible amount of power and there
> is nothing punitive in the law against them if they abuse their
> power. They do it all the time. Homeschoolers give in because they
> don't have time and money to go to court and fight every time school
> districts abuse their power.

This may be true in PA. But it wouldn't be safe to assume that the same
attitude exists across the US. When I've been asked for more than the case
law allows, all I do is quote the appropriate passage.

Though I've never read all the state folders on homeschooling message boards
to see the problems people have, the times where people have posted in the
general areas in a panic about being asked to do too much have not led to
dire consequences. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen only that it isn't
rampant across the US.

The best way for homeschoolers to help themselves is to contact their state
homeschooling group. Most have webpages. Most have FAQs to tell you how to
handle superintendents who ask too much. If that fails, there's always
Google!

There's a list of state groups at National Home Education Network
http://www.nhen.org

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/11/02 1:39:50 PM Central Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:


> It's easy to homeschool/unschool if you all you have to do is follow
> the law, even in restrictive states like PA. The problem is that
> many school districts ask for documentation that is above and beyond
> the law. Superintendents have an incredible amount of power and there
> is nothing punitive in the law against them if they abuse their
> power. They do it all the time. Homeschoolers give in because they
> don't have time and money to go to court and fight every time school
> districts abuse their power.
>
> Superintendents don't even need to have probable cause to initiate
> due process against homeschoolers. But they usually don't initiate
> due process because that would cost them money. So they threaten
> families with truancy charges.

In the cases I have seen it is usually the principal of a particular school
that doesn't know the law, who is the one that gives the most grief to
parents wanting to homeschool. IMO, nine times out of ten, you don't have to
have money to fight ignorance.
A principal of a local school tried to tell a friend of mine that she
couldn't homeschool. She even threatened my friend with truancy charges.
(Sent by registered mail, with the date she was expected to show in family
court to answer the charges against her.) Now my friend had registered her
homeschool with the KDOE, and she had notified the principal of the school
that her son would not be returning. She still had to go through this,
almost. I went with her to a meeting with the principal, armed with a copy of
the statute about private schools. (Kansas doesn't recognize homeschooling,
we fall under the private school statute.) I asked the principal to show us,
in writing, where the law says we can't homeschool. She couldn't do it, she
apologized for being wrong, and that was it.
Nine times out of ten, things like this are because of uninformed or
misinformed people. Nine times out of ten, four words do the trick. "Show me
in writing." (Then again, there is that tenth time. <g>)
~Nancy


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